Stupid Online Piracy; Now A Recognized Religion

Note: I make some rather passionately harsh comments and some arguments based on light ground in this post. I've since the inception of this blog post come to realize I was overstepping on some areas where I wasn't actually wanting this discussion to go, I was just getting out of bed in a foul mood that reflected poorly on my writing of this blog. In hindsight, I probably should have waited to post this until my mind could settle and I had a cup of tea down. I still stand by thinking this is entirely stupid, but I could probably have worded that entire thing better.

Thank you all for contributing to the discussion and if you're new to the thread, disregard some of my original ramblings and focus on the topic at hand; Kopimism.

Escapist Article talking about something I recently read in a Swedish newspaper here. Apparently some dude I wish I could punch in the face have made the act of downloading and sharing things online an officially recognized religion. This completely ruins me because not only is religion on it's own dumb. But to make piracy a religion is even twice as dumb because the basic idea behind piracy is such an annoying fallacy of logic that it always makes my head explode when people don't grasp the simple concept of "If no one paid for these things, they wouldn't exist". Sure they won't always slant it that way, but that's the gist. No one is stopping the notion of sharing freeware and copyright-free things, therefore these "enemies of free information" is obviously those who think copyrighted material should be paid for so that those who created those things get back what they invested.

And it's a shame that this mentality has taken place. I remember some years ago the film industry in South Korea was booming, they made some awesome films during that time (such as Oldboy). Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong. Sure, there will be those that manage to create something interesting, but not as much as it could be if more people took their head out of their ass and paid for the entertainment they consume. Sure, one could argue about how the income scales within entertainment, but just because A-list celebrities in block buster movies make a ton of cash, doesn't mean every person making something drives a Bently.

We all know this happens in the gaming industry as well. How many studios isn't closing down? Sure, their issues might not all be due to piracy, but for some I am sure it is. Big franchises tend to win out because they have the PR and they will sell more than they spent. But most won't. Which means new ideas are not as prolific as sequels. And while some franchises are fun sequels, it makes for a rather stale state of the gaming landscape.

I can agree though that while piracy is a reality, creators of entertainment needs to give out options that make paying for their products worth it. Make the pirate version the lesser one. But that may also mean we'll eventually end up in a place where "streaming" and "cloud" gaming (or other entertainment) is the norm and that the notion of owning something to keep for the future is a thing of the past. And I am not sure I want that to be the case. I like the fact that I can sit down and play Bushido Blade and not worry about them not having that game on some server somewhere.

Finally, for more brain melting stupidity, check out their website here.

Note: I make some rather passionately harsh comments and some arguments based on light ground in this post. I've since the inception of this blog post come to realize I was overstepping on some areas where I wasn't actually wanting this discussion to go, I was just getting out of bed in a foul mood that reflected poorly on my writing of this blog. In hindsight, I probably should have waited to post this until my mind could settle and I had a cup of tea down. I still stand by thinking this is entirely stupid, but I could probably have worded that entire thing better.

Thank you all for contributing to the discussion and if you're new to the thread, disregard some of my original ramblings and focus on the topic at hand; Kopimism.

Escapist Article talking about something I recently read in a Swedish newspaper here. Apparently some dude I wish I could punch in the face have made the act of downloading and sharing things online an officially recognized religion. This completely ruins me because not only is religion on it's own dumb. But to make piracy a religion is even twice as dumb because the basic idea behind piracy is such an annoying fallacy of logic that it always makes my head explode when people don't grasp the simple concept of "If no one paid for these things, they wouldn't exist". Sure they won't always slant it that way, but that's the gist. No one is stopping the notion of sharing freeware and copyright-free things, therefore these "enemies of free information" is obviously those who think copyrighted material should be paid for so that those who created those things get back what they invested.

And it's a shame that this mentality has taken place. I remember some years ago the film industry in South Korea was booming, they made some awesome films during that time (such as Oldboy). Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong. Sure, there will be those that manage to create something interesting, but not as much as it could be if more people took their head out of their ass and paid for the entertainment they consume. Sure, one could argue about how the income scales within entertainment, but just because A-list celebrities in block buster movies make a ton of cash, doesn't mean every person making something drives a Bently.

We all know this happens in the gaming industry as well. How many studios isn't closing down? Sure, their issues might not all be due to piracy, but for some I am sure it is. Big franchises tend to win out because they have the PR and they will sell more than they spent. But most won't. Which means new ideas are not as prolific as sequels. And while some franchises are fun sequels, it makes for a rather stale state of the gaming landscape.

I can agree though that while piracy is a reality, creators of entertainment needs to give out options that make paying for their products worth it. Make the pirate version the lesser one. But that may also mean we'll eventually end up in a place where "streaming" and "cloud" gaming (or other entertainment) is the norm and that the notion of owning something to keep for the future is a thing of the past. And I am not sure I want that to be the case. I like the fact that I can sit down and play Bushido Blade and not worry about them not having that game on some server somewhere.

Finally, for more brain melting stupidity, check out their website here.

Jesus Christ.

I thought Scientology was a little cookoo.

Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong.

If you actually believe this you're stupid.

Blame Sweden.

Really couldn't care less, honestly. Also, you do realise how ignorant you sound when you completely denounce every religion, right? I don't believe in a God either, but atheists waste more of their time shoving their own beliefs onto people than religious people do. Religion is their culture and way of life for some people.

And, back of subject, I still don't care about this. It's not going to make any more people pirate than there already is now, so it's not really a problem. It's legal in Sweden anyway.

@blueduck said:

Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong.

If you actually believe this you're stupid.

The only stupid thing is making sound like piracy is at fault alone, it DID contribute to the downfall of creativity. It's just not as big of an offender as the fact that "lowest common denominator" content juts plain sells better. This would have happened piracy or not.

@TobbRobb said:

@blueduck said:

Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong.

If you actually believe this you're stupid.

The only stupid thing is making sound like piracy is at fault alone, it DID contribute to the downfall of creativity. It's just not as big of an offender as the fact that "lowest common denominator" content juts plain sells better. This would have happened piracy or not.

It has nothing to do with it. There is standard that people expect when they pay to see movies. The cost to raise your movie's production values to that standard are always going up. A result of this is that smaller indie movies go away and only things that get made are sure things.

So, what do they share anyway?

@blueduck: Which is exactly what I meant is the main reason this is happening, don't misunderstand I agree. But think long and hard about the affect mass piracy has (it's even worse in countries like korea) when you are a small, unadvertised indie-movie maker. Without piracy you would get a very small amount of money, with piracy you get no money. Piracy isn't the reason this happens, it just makes it worse.

I'm going to start a new religion...and it features a 30 minute coffee break for every hour I work. This way I can reconnect my body with the proper amount of caffeine to feed my soul! Oh, and taxes are forbidden also!

They all share dicks in their assholes amirite!?

This seems like something you would see on The Onion....

@Vinny_Says said:

They all share dicks in their assholes amirite!?

That appears to be very popular outside their religion as well ........ it must be more. Perhaps they all share Volvos and ABBA?

@blueduck said:

@TobbRobb said:

@blueduck said:

Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong.

If you actually believe this you're stupid.

The only stupid thing is making sound like piracy is at fault alone, it DID contribute to the downfall of creativity. It's just not as big of an offender as the fact that "lowest common denominator" content juts plain sells better. This would have happened piracy or not.

It has nothing to do with it. There is standard that people expect when they pay to see movies. The cost to raise your movie's production values to that standard are always going up. A result of this is that smaller indie movies go away and only things that get made are sure things.

Arguing over rising cost of "production value" doesn't account for the fall of actual film quality. And it's pretty well established fact that within a field of business when there are losing income, the small business will take the biggest hit because they are the ones with the most to lose. Or in the case of entertainment, money isn't put towards ideas that are unproven because of the potential loss. Even if it could turn out to be great. So, money is put towards that which sells best. Which isn't always indicative of the best quality.

So sure, as @TobbRobb have said, it's not the entire issue (and I didn't intend to make it sound that way, though I might have), but it's a big player in why it's developing in that way. And that's really unfortunate.

@benpicko said:

Really couldn't care less, honestly. Also, you do realise how ignorant you sound when you completely denounce every religion, right? I don't believe in a God either, but atheists waste more of their time shoving their own beliefs onto people than religious people do. Religion is their culture and way of life for some people.

And, back of subject, I still don't care about this. It's not going to make any more people pirate than there already is now, so it's not really a problem. It's legal in Sweden anyway.

I am ignorant in denouncing religion? How, exactly, is that ignorant? Also, I am not shoving my "beliefs" (or lack thereof) in anyone's throat. It's my opinion. And just like you don't care about this, I don't care that people are religious and that I may hurt their feelings thinking their fairytale dark age belief system is just dumb. I never said I had anything against people.

And no, it's not legal in Sweden.

Your article made no sense beyond pointing out the piracy religion, piracy is not to blame for anything you listed, NOTHING.

What made me LOL the hardest is when you claim we will all stream games instead of buy them because we steal so much, do you not understand the infrastructure that would have to back that up?????? way more expensive than the couple million dollars call of duty loses (out of a frickin billion) to pirates.

Something also tells me back ally Korean films failed for lack of advertisement and shitty distribution a hell of alot more than pirating.

@JasonR86 said:

Jesus Christ.

I see what you did there.

@CaliLove89: I am talking possibilities, I'm saying in the future physical medium may be a thing of the past. But that also relies on connected servers hosting all the crap we want and available storage to keep those things. And hard drives fail. What I was trying to get at is that piracy is one part of the problem that will eventually drive us towards a place where we possibly won't own our entertainment the way we used to. Which means even if we pay for it, the ownership and control still resides with whoever holds the button on the server. For example, online authentication to be able to play a game is one example of that where if you don't have internet access, you can't play the game you bought.

It's a doomsday scenario, I know. But it's still something worth discussing. But maybe I'm a generation who values having the control of the things I pay for.

@ImHungry said:

@JasonR86 said:

Jesus Christ.

I see what you did there.

You like that? Clever right? I thought so.

@benpicko said:

It's legal in Sweden anyway.

Nope.

Anyway, it's a little to silly for my taste, but it makes a good point about religion.

@Pezen said:

Arguing over rising cost of "production value" doesn't account for the fall of actual film quality. And it's pretty well established fact that within a field of business when there are losing income, the small business will take the biggest hit because they are the ones with the most to lose. Or in the case of entertainment, money isn't put towards ideas that are unproven because of the potential loss. Even if it could turn out to be great. So, money is put towards that which sells best. Which isn't always indicative of the best quality.

So sure, as @TobbRobb have said, it's not the entire issue (and I didn't intend to make it sound that way, though I might have), but it's a big player in why it's developing in that way. And that's really unfortunate.

And it's pretty well established fact that most indie film-makers don't create movies to make millions of dollars. Some even receive Government grants/donations from various organizations to fund their film. It's much too assumptive and speculative to say that Internet Piracy directly contributes to the stifling of creativity and the general downfall in quality of films when in reality it can be caused for a number of reasons that you can't simply collectively put all the blame onto.

Now as for Kopimism, no other country besides Sweden will take it seriously especially if it conflicts with international copyright laws. Frankly, I think there have been far crazier and abusive religion/cults that have been officially recognized. Really I can't understand why so many people are upset by this. Even go so far as to declare empty threats and actively persecute them as you have.

@Pezen said:

Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong.

If you actually think that you're a lost hope. Hollywood has been shitting out your lowest common denominator flicks for over two decades.

People like money. They will appeal to the mass audience if that's how they can make it. Sure there's your exceptions in the gaming, music and film industries but for the most part it is all about the money.

Well this is just stupid as fuck....

I only hear doomsday scenarios from anti pirates, because there is no proof that pirating hurts sales AT ALL. One would ask how this is true, well it is quite simple If I walk into a gas station and steal a snickers I NEVER HAD THE INTENTION OF BUYING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, it is not like I was going to pay for a snickers and thought well I might as well steal this snickers because it is goddamn hard and tricky to steal anything.

People who pirate games NEVER INTEND TO BUY VIDEO GAMES, therefore nobody lost a customer.

I pirate games (OMG)

Scenario

I try games out to see if I like them and If they are compelling I buy them

I pirate old games that are no longer sold in stores for emulators

WHEN I HAVE NO MONEYS because I am young and am not well of yet, again I have no money so I cannot give it to EA for their game (NOBODY LOST A CUSTOMER BECAUSE I HAVE NO MONEYS)

The research the content producers do is simple (estimate of pirate games x 60= Y) Press release crying about losing Y dollars when in reality they lost very little do to the theory above.

@Pezen said:

I am ignorant in denouncing religion? How, exactly, is that ignorant? Also, I am not shoving my "beliefs" (or lack thereof) in anyone's throat. It's my opinion. And just like you don't care about this, I don't care that people are religious and that I may hurt their feelings thinking their fairytale dark age belief system is just dumb. I never said I had anything against people.

That's too bad, but I have faith you'll see the light. Don't worry, I'll pray for you. :)

@Pezen said:

@blueduck said:

@TobbRobb said:

@blueduck said:

Since then, piracy has made most experimental films obsolete in favor of bland "lowest common denominator" entertainment much like Hollywood or Hong Kong.

If you actually believe this you're stupid.

The only stupid thing is making sound like piracy is at fault alone, it DID contribute to the downfall of creativity. It's just not as big of an offender as the fact that "lowest common denominator" content juts plain sells better. This would have happened piracy or not.

It has nothing to do with it. There is standard that people expect when they pay to see movies. The cost to raise your movie's production values to that standard are always going up. A result of this is that smaller indie movies go away and only things that get made are sure things.

Arguing over rising cost of "production value" doesn't account for the fall of actual film quality. And it's pretty well established fact that within a field of business when there are losing income, the small business will take the biggest hit because they are the ones with the most to lose. Or in the case of entertainment, money isn't put towards ideas that are unproven because of the potential loss. Even if it could turn out to be great. So, money is put towards that which sells best. Which isn't always indicative of the best quality.

So sure, as @TobbRobb have said, it's not the entire issue (and I didn't intend to make it sound that way, though I might have), but it's a big player in why it's developing in that way. And that's really unfortunate.

At risk of widening the debate, do you have any evidence for that? I've seen statistics for the music industry that piracy has only had a detrimental effect on the top 20% of artists, those paid ridiculous amounts of money anyway. For everyone else piracy either has no effect on or is actually beneficial to the artists, your point about smaller businesses taking the hit isn't true. Additionally piracy is not the killer of any industry, indie or otherwise, it has never been, in fact I would say it would effect indie producers far less than larger ones.

@Inkerman: Here; http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf And I quote;

Negative Effects of Counterfeiting and Piracy, by Stakeholder

Stakeholders

Industries-Lost sales and brand value, increased IP protection costs.

U.S. government - Lost tax revenue, increased enforcement costs, and risks to supply chains with national security or safety implications.

U.S. economy - Lower growth and innovation, declining trade with countries having weak IP rights enforcement.

Table 2: Potential Direct Effects of IP Infringements in the United States by Stakeholder

Stakeholders

Industry

Potential effects

Negative effects:

• Lost sales

• Lost brand value or damage to public image

• Cost of IP protection

• Decreased incentive to invest in research and development

Positive effects:

• Increased sales of legitimate goods based on consumer “sampling” of pirated goods

The underlined parts fit rather well to my point. That link talks about all sorts of things that can and are being pirated or counterfeited. It's a difficult measurement to make, because piracy doesn't always lead to bad, as with the whole "sampling" thing. But there's no denying there are effects of piracy that are bad both creatively and economically. But do I have specific data on the loss of money for indie or smaller developers or artists? No.

@deathstriker666: I think most film makers that doesn't want to be the black metal of movies will want to succeed, even if they make indie films. And persecution? Come on.

@CaliLove89: Let me get this straight, if you go in and steal a snickers bar.. no one loses money by your actions?

Your title almost shortens to SOPA..... you were so goddamn close to achieving the best title in the history of titles, but oh well.

It is only slightly more silly than other religions.

@Pezen said:

@Inkerman: Here; http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf And I quote;

Negative Effects of Counterfeiting and Piracy, by Stakeholder

Stakeholders

Industries-Lost sales and brand value, increased IP protection costs.

U.S. government - Lost tax revenue, increased enforcement costs, and risks to supply chains with national security or safety implications.

U.S. economy - Lower growth and innovation, declining trade with countries having weak IP rights enforcement.

Table 2: Potential Direct Effects of IP Infringements in the United States by Stakeholder

Stakeholders

Industry

Potential effects

Negative effects:

• Lost sales

• Lost brand value or damage to public image

• Cost of IP protection

• Decreased incentive to invest in research and development

Positive effects:

• Increased sales of legitimate goods based on consumer “sampling” of pirated goods

The underlined parts fit rather well to my point. That link talks about all sorts of things that can and are being pirated or counterfeited. It's a difficult measurement to make, because piracy doesn't always lead to bad, as with the whole "sampling" thing. But there's no denying there are effects of piracy that are bad both creatively and economically. But do I have specific data on the loss of money for indie or smaller developers or artists? No.

@deathstriker666: I think most film makers that doesn't want to be the black metal of movies will want to succeed, even if they make indie films. And persecution? Come on.

@CaliLove89: Let me get this straight, if you go in and steal a snickers bar.. no one loses money by your actions?

So you quote a study that admits that it's based on no real data and only assumptions?

Hm, how about we look at a study with real data and therefore more accurate findings?

Let's see...

From the results above, it seems clear that eliminating piracy through a stronger DRM can result in significantly increased sales – but sometimes it can have no benefit at all. So what does that mean for the question about whether a pirated copy means a lost sale? The decreases in downloads may provide a clue to that

As we believe that we are decreasing the number of pirates downloading the game with our DRM fixes, combining the increased sales number together with the decreased downloads, we find 1 additional sale for every 1,000 less pirated downloads. Put another way, for every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale.

Though many of the pirates may be simply shifting to another source of games for their illegal activities, the number is nonetheless striking and poignant. The sales to download ratio found on Reflexive implies that a pirated copy is more similar to the loss of a download (a poorly converting one!) than the loss of a sale.

Though that doesn’t make a 92% piracy rate of one of our banner products any less distressing, knowing that eliminating 50,000 pirated copies might only produce 50 additional legal copies does help put things in perspective.

Heh, who would've guessed?

So ridiculous. 

At least the official dress would be underwear only.

@Pezen said:

@CaliLove89: Let me get this straight, if you go in and steal a snickers bar.. no one loses money by your actions?

Well, that's where piracy gets a bit tricky. You can't claim such a direct link with loss of money as you do when you steal an actual item. What you lose is a potential purchase, it's not even certain the person who pirates would ever have bought the item in question. And since they haven't stolen anything from an actual shop, no one loses anything they've paid for (stock for the store) to begin with either.

Ain't sayin' I condone piracy...but I'm sayin' it's a tricky argument to make. It's so vague and loaded with "potentials" I can see why it's been made into a religion.

@Roflwaffles said:

I'm going to start a new religion...and it features a 30 minute coffee break for every hour I work. This way I can reconnect my body with the proper amount of caffeine to feed my soul! Oh, and taxes are forbidden also!

Teach me more, master...

@Pezen:

I'd say lower sales are due to market glut in a down economy as piracy as an economic indicator is a shaky premise to base an argument on. There are no solid numbers, just assumptions and guesses.

Let me put it to you like this: A game costs 60 bucks. A good game, a bad game, if it's released through a normal retail channel, it's almost always this much money. The last two years(this year particularly) there were a lot of worthwhile games. Meaning, a lot of games worth your money. There are only so many 60 dollars in pockets and even less opportunities with such a glutted market. Tonight I played games that were totally pushed out of the market this year, child of eden, Shadows of the Damned and Rayman Origins, all of which I bought for a song because they fell victim to market flooding.

I think your comments on innovation are unfounded as with the low bar for development and self-publishing, the indie space has blown up with innovative titles and has made these folks quite a wad of cash. So, these super small developers releasing games on the PC are still making money and this flies in the face of your hypothesis.

Just let peolpe do their stupid religion thingy no need to start ragein. After all most of the indie films are not easy to find some places btw if you are into j-horror where I am from you are fucked so there is either hopeing that the film will come to scandinavia or uk, or it is an import from japan. 

@Roflwaffles said:

I'm going to start a new religion...and it features a 30 minute coffee break for every hour I work. This way I can reconnect my body with the proper amount of caffeine to feed my soul! Oh, and taxes are forbidden also!

How do I sign up?

@Contrarian said:

Blame Sweden.

Oh don't you fucking dare!

We all know this happens in the gaming industry as well. How many studios isn't closing down? Sure, their issues might not all be due to piracy, but for some I am sure it is. Big franchises tend to win out because they have the PR and they will sell more than they spent. But most won't. 

Jesus Christ.

@Swoxx said:

@Contrarian said:

Blame Sweden.

Oh don't you fucking dare!

Someone has to.

@zels: Thanks for the read, that's quite interesting.

@Vodun said:

Well, that's where piracy gets a bit tricky. You can't claim such a direct link with loss of money as you do when you steal an actual item. What you lose is a potential purchase, it's not even certain the person who pirates would ever have bought the item in question. And since they haven't stolen anything from an actual shop, no one loses anything they've paid for (stock for the store) to begin with either.

Let us examine it in layers with a book. Downloading a book is easy and is just a digital copy. Going to a friend's house and scan an entire book is more work, but probably nothing you would bat an eyelash at. Going to the store and taking the book off the shelf, copy every page and walk out.. no one would do that. Not only because it's a complete waste of time, but also because that act feels wrong and the store would object. But the act itself is the same in all cases, it's just a different method. You copy something, you don't steal a physical object, but whoever wrote the book isn't getting paid for that book you're now reading off of copied pages. I'm of the mindset that if you consume something, you have an obligation to make sure it's yours to consume. Just because you "didn't intend" to purchase, you still consume said product. Personally, I don't think it's particularly tricky because I don't apply philosophical thinking to it.

@OppressiveStink: While that's certainly true, not every indie developer will be Minecraft. And quite frankly, indie games doesn't interest me in general so I have no knowledge of how they are doing. Maybe I should qualify it by saying "innovation in expensive games". Again though, I am not saying innovation is dead and never happens. But maybe it's true as mentioned before, a lot of people like a lot of similar things and those are the things that sell the most and thus are made the most of. Besides, quality and innovation is subjective to a large point anyway.

@Pezen said:

Let us examine it in layers with a book. Downloading a book is easy and is just a digital copy. Going to a friend's house and scan an entire book is more work, but probably nothing you would bat an eyelash at. Going to the store and taking the book off the shelf, copy every page and walk out.. no one would do that. Not only because it's a complete waste of time, but also because that act feels wrong and the store would object. But the act itself is the same in all cases, it's just a different method. You copy something, you don't steal a physical object, but whoever wrote the book isn't getting paid for that book you're now reading off of copied pages. I'm of the mindset that if you consume something, you have an obligation to make sure it's yours to consume. Just because you "didn't intend" to purchase, you still consume said product. Personally, I don't think it's particularly tricky because I don't apply philosophical thinking to it.

There is no philosophical thinking it's very simple. When there is a physical product taking something without paying makes the store lose money since now they can't sell that to someone else. When you're talking about a product with no supply and a demand/price that is just randomly chosen there is no lose to anyone when you take it. The only argument that can be made is that when someone downloads something without paying they're doing that instead of paying for it which is something that is impossible to measure. When were talking about the gaming industry they don't like pirating games for the same reason they didn't like blockbuster renting games and renting games has been around forever. Are there people who take instead of buying it yes but I really don't think the numbers are high since were talking about a price difference of Free to 50-60 dollars and that's a huge jump. Most people pirate games to either see if it can run on there pc or see if the game is worth the money they're trying to sell it at, which wouldn't be a problem if the industry people are crying over was fully honest. There is also the fact that a pirated copy is less run and more work. It's a lot easier to have all your games on Steam and just boot them up from there than have a bunch of pirated stuff. The point is that is people have the ability to buy they do, Valve knows, has said and became rich off this idea. The crying about piracy is from dinosaur companies that can't deal with change and want a scapegoat to blame for their crappy pc sales and again that argument goes to shit when you look at Steam. Piracy has always been a scapegoat. When the music industry dinosaur companies didn't want to stop selling overpriced physical cds they whined and cried that digital music is too plagued by piracy meanwhile steve jobs took all their money because he wasn't retarded and now their industry is dieing. Not music but their old way world of doing things and they're mad about it so they make things like sopa and the RIAA whose job it is to reave up the brainwashed masses into screaming about PIRACY is making my entertainment not so great and more expensive!

@blueduck said:

When there is a physical product taking something without paying makes the store lose money since now they can't sell that to someone else. When you're talking about a product with no supply and a demand/price that is just randomly chosen there is no lose to anyone when you take it. The only argument that can be made is that when someone downloads something without paying they're doing that instead of paying for it which is something that is impossible to measure.

I think my book example pointed out the fallacy of that logic. But here's another one; take a bunch of random mp3s and burn them on a disk. Then sell that disk to someone else. You've made money from selling arbitrary data that turns into sound waves. No one is losing money, but you're still not doing something that's allowed. Because that's how intellectual property copyright laws work. Just because the property can't be measured in material cost, doesn't mean it lacks value. And you're free to argue the value proposition and not buy it, but when you decide to pirate and consume it, it's still stealing a sale by means of copying it. No one is getting paid by your consumption.

Also, just because Valve managed to make a product that was appealing doesn't mean piracy isn't an issue. Things such as Steam is a good way to combat piracy; offer a better option. But just because Valve managed to turn that into something viable, doesn't mean piracy is excused as a means to acquire games from those that isn't steam connected or dinosaurs.

There are two points I'll cover again so you're not misunderstanding me;

1. It's in the best interest of companies to offer a better option than piracy, that way they can combat the problem while still making money and making their consumers happy, I agree.

2. That in and of itself doesn't excuse actions such as piracy by a consumer. They're still putting out a product for consumption and if you want to consume that product, you need to pay for that privilege.

Lmao.

Ignoring the Piracy aspect, a religion based around the free flow of information and ideas between people seems like a not terrible idea.

It's like the people who use weed as part of their religious ceremonies. I smoke weed, but I've got no delusions about it whatsoever. Just admit you like to steal shit/get high, don't try and make some bullshit religion based around it.

I really don't think you're in a position to criticize someone for making logical fallacies, as you seem to be basing most of your arguments on presumptions.

I'm not taking a stance, just pointing that out.

Don´t persecute me for my beliefs.

Oh shit its like the Cowboy Bebop episode 'Brain Scratch'