The Scottish Independence Referendum Discussion

Howdy!

In light of the Scottish Independence mailbag I figured there could be a place to talk about it here!

What are you voting and why?

Remember please keep it civil as this is a highly contentious and momentously important issue.

I am from England and do not really care about which way Scotland go independent or not. What bothers me is the amount of information given to the public about the consequences of Scotland leaving the UK on the economy with solid hard figures. Or how it will benefit Scotland if they go independent with hard figures.

When news outlets ask random young Scots on the streets why they are voting "Yes", they mumble something and say it would be nice to make decisions on our own, I think they have been watching too much Braveheart.

How much will it cost the Scotland economy to: -

• Create a independent border agency?
• Implement a new treasury with a new currency (if there is no currency union with England)?
• Impact if businesses move their headquarters out of Scotland and into England? (Rumours about businesses and banks have talked about this)
• The list goes on from here...

As an American, I have no allegiance to Scotland other than having strong blood ties to it through my ancestors. I just want whatever is best for it and its people.

I don't care for politics, in fact this quote by Plato is one of my favourites:

“Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.”

So, I don't know what the rules are on it, but surely England would never let Scotland keep the pound if they went independent?

No. This needs to be locked. I'm sorry but to call it highly contentious is an understatement.

As a french canadian that was too young to vote in 95, go Scotland!

(This is not an elaborate and worthwile opinion at all)

ALL TO FREE FAIRE SCOTLANDE FROM THE TYRANNIE OF KING DAVE

No wait. I'm an American. I'll just say that I'm very interested in seeing the results of the referendum as an outsider with no stake in the proceedings.

@bollard: England don't actually have a choice in the matter. The Pound is Fully-Tradeable International Currency, Alistair Darling (who heads up the televised debates for the "No" camp) has admitted that they can't stop us from using it. I should say this is AFTER they led a large campaign of fear that indicated we wouldn't be able to use it.

It's in England's best interests to have a currency union, however that's 'best interests' as a plan B. The ideal outcome for Westminster (the seat of UK politics) is to keep Scotland in. If Scotland does leave and the UK cuts off the Pound, then they are simultaneously cutting off Scotland from all the debt that it was under as part of the "UK Pound". Scotland has agreed in the event of a Currency Union to pay a fair share of the debt. It's a scenario where everybody 'wins' on a financial level...except where the UK loses control of one of it's provinces.

In the words of Darling himself

@chobobot:

To answer your questions about money, a recent report from the oil industry explains that there's actually trillions worth of oil in West Scotland waters.

The problem? It can't be accessed as long as Trident is there...a costly and obsolete system that only paints a target on Scotland that really England should bare the brunt of. In an independent Scotland, Trident would be removed. Even without that, Westminster has been downplaying the value of North Sea oil reserves ever since they were discovered.

I'm Irish, so at some level I possess a primal, vindictive urge to see the United Kingdom clumsily dissolve, but mostly I'm just glad the Scots are getting a chance at self-determination, regardless of which way they vote.

As a Scottish person I have absolutely no idea about any side of the question. The information I have been presented just seems like hopes and rumours. I keep seeing Politicians on TV telling me there is absolutely no way we can do something only for the people/resource they are referring to respond with "They haven't actually asked us about it" or simply duelling Politicians saying "This will get us a lot of money and here is the proof" with the other side saying "This will lose us a lot of money and here is the proof" in response.

Which means when it comes to voting for the future of my country I don't really have any information either way and I am just kind of terrified about my own voting and about what the country will be afterwards.

@pazy:

Yeah it's a big issue and it's scary, but no matter which way the country votes there will be turbulent times afterwards so there is no 'safe' vote as such anymore. It's a matter of voting what's best for Scotland.

Here, a collection of information to address most of the big issues talked about in the debate. ^_^ Information is an important thing and it's very easy to distrust politicians so please have a look and I hope you come to a decision you are comfortable with and vote on the 18th.

As an Englishman, I, and many others, would be better off if Scotland left the UK, but for sentimental reasons a lot of people (including myself) want them to stay a part of the Union.

Also, it's scary to think that some people don't see through Alex Salmond's hilariously juvenile tactics. He really has come quite close to lying through his teeth on a lot of points. He's a joke to anyone other than a nationalistic Scotsman. One hell of a politician for this age of sound-bites and shallow interest, though.

I'm don't think the OP understands how monetary systems and currency unions work, as almost all of the text he's written in the original post is really very misguided, at best.

Its juvenile from both sides. Like two kids that don't get along but they stay together because the older one says he has to. I have very little idea how a truly independent Scotland will earn its corn besides North Sea oil. I have no idea what their plans are for welfare. I have no idea whether the Westminster rhetoric is just bluster and that, ultimately, they can't sever the cord entirely.

Its all just been childish toy-taking and pram-booting.

And it top it all, Ian Paisley dies before he can see it. He'd have loved this.

Sounds expensive for the taxpayer either way.

@drebin_893:

That's fair, I don't understand how currency unions work, economy is hardly my field of expertise. Would you care to enlighten me on the matter?

I'd like to know also why if it's purely for "sentimental reasons" why is the UK so keen to hold onto us? I suppose I'd rather you put up points rather than just slander the politician ultimately.

From England myself and to be entirely frank with you I'm sick to death of it. I'm looking forward to when its over. That said I know it's a massive issue and I can appreciate that.

I personally feel that Scottish independence wouldn't be a bad thing for the rest of the United Kingdom either. I can't stand that Salmon politician though, acting all high and mighty. But we can all agree we hate Westminster :D

How come you guys get to do it without a big war and shit? Seems kind of unfair to the rest of us who stopped being British the hard way.

Edit: Stupid jokes aside, how is this polling over in Scotland?

As an American with largely Irish heritage, I am perhaps the least emotionally and intellectually qualified person on the planet when it comes to having an opinion about the vote. That said, it's been sounding as though the political leadership of either position is racing toward the bottom of the exploitative barrel.

I'm English and I have a fairly selfish reason for wanting the Scots to stay in the UK - Scotland always votes left-wing en masse, and so losing those constituencies would mean we'd get Tory governments until the end of time, and I just don't think I can deal with that. Say what you will about Labour, but they're a better bunch that the bloody Tories.

Selfish reasons aside, if the Scots truly believe that they need and deserve true self-determination and independence, then it'd be hypocritical of me to say they should be forced to stay, but my problem with this issue is all the hot air and political willy-waving that has dominated the debate. Alex Salmond is a total tool. I also don't believe that an independent Scotland would be economically viable, even if they can use GBP and even with all that North Sea oil and gas (where were all the rigs built?).

@atlas: Actually I'm sorry to say but Scotland doesn't make a difference in "fending off the tories".

If you'll look here on page 7 you'll see a graph showing the parliament votes minus Scottish Influence. While Scotland is largely a massive labour base it doesn't make enough of a difference in this situation.

I'm surprised there's more English that Scottish speaking out here to say the least, but the opinions are welcome anyway.

I'm English, but I live in Scotland and I'm eligible to vote in the referendum.

I have no idea how I'm going to vote.

Thanks for explaining that! It all sounds like a load of bollocks to me :P

@pierre42: I know Scotland can implement a currency called "Scottish Sterling" or "Scottish Pound", but the thing I am unsure is will that have the same stock market value as England's pound or does that require the currency union?

It's LOL that 16 year old children get to vote in this. One kid the BBC interviewed said he was pro-independence because there was a rumour Scotland might get a spaceport and he thought that would be "really cool like Star Wars".

'England' alone doesn't have a choice in anything, as England effectively doesn't exist as a state and has no parliament of its own.

You're right that anyone at all can use Sterling as currency, but there is a massive difference between simply using it and using it as part of a currency union with the backing of the Bank of England (the central bank of the UK). Nobody bothered acknowledging the former (Scotland using Sterling without a currency union) because a) it should go without saying, and b) it would be a terrible option for Scotland. Scotland would have no say or control over any aspect of the currency it would be using, which would be an absurd position to put themselves in. Salmond also once described the Pound as ''a millstone round Scotland's neck'' and expressed a preference for joining the Euro, so it's odd that he's now so desperate to keep the Pound.

Salmond hopes he can negotiate a currency union by threatening to drop Scotland's share of the debt in the UK's lap if they don't give in to his demands. I think he's going to be disappointed. The UK taxpayer / electorate simply will not accept a situation where they are asked to act as guarantor to the finances of a foreign nation -especially a nation that would have just stuck two fingers up at them- and won't let a foreign nation have a say in controllng its own currency (interest rates etc). All of the UK political parties understand the general public's feeling on this and it would be political suicide to disregard it. If there is a currency union at all it will be very one-sided, with Scotland's budget having to remain within strict guidelines as set by the UK (ie. not true independence, and not a million miles away from what we already have).

No politician dare take Salmond's 'currency union or we renege on national debt' threat to its logical conclusion pre-referendum (as it's typically not a good idea to threaten your own citizens) but it would be a trivial thing for the UK to win that argument once the gloves come off in the event of a Yes vote. The Yes camp seems to have this crazy idea in its head that it's going to win independence and then be able to dictate terms to a still-massively-more-powerful neighbour. That's never going to happen. When all of your nation's wealth is buried under the sea and your neighbour has a powerful navy, while you yourself have no navy to speak of, there is really no scenario in which you can hope to threaten anything and come out on top.

As for oil: if all we had to do to gain access to "trillions worth" off the West coast of Scotland was to find somewhere else to park our submarines, I can assure you that Westminster would have moved them, drilled it out and sold most of it by now.

As a red-blooded American, I fully support Scotland in their bid for independence and believe we should arm the Scottish rebels and utilize strategic airstrikes to degrade and eliminate Queen Elizabeth's oppressive regime.

...

Wait, things aren't really that bad? They're just wanting a peaceful transition toward independence? hm...

I guess that's cool, too. If dissolving that union is the will of the vast majority in Scotland, then more power to them.

To be fair, I could see many full grown adults voting for just about anything for similar reasons.

*imagines what a British Dan Ryckert would sound like*

I guess I just don't "get" the desire for independence here. But of course, not being Scottish, I wouldn't, right?

Regardless I feel like the arguments on both sides just seem silly. Quebec's sovereignty movement at least makes some amount of sense to me; the french in Quebec suffered a lot of systemic discrimination and had their culture dominated and eroded by everyone that surrounded them and to this day are still often treated as annoyances. The division there is understandable, how they feel like they have a unique society that doesn't fit their neighbors can be easily seen. In Scotland's case it just seems from the outside as one of the least emotionally powerful sovereignty campaigns ever. What drives that desire so much? And all the arguments opposed are just "But... we love Scotland! ~*Unity!*~" as if often the case in a sovereignty campaign.

From the outside looking in, it just seems like one of the most arbitrary movements for independence in modern memory, and it makes it difficult for me to see the outcome as all that impactful. I just barely see what change this would cause for either party, even symbolically. Except, of course, as something that would just create a Tory gerrymander for the rest of the UK.

Scottish here. In an ideal situation yes, power structures should be broken down as much as possible, control should continue to be more localised, devolution was a step, this could be another but... Back in the real world, I just can't for the life of me vote the way of Alex Salmond. People can talk for days about the policies, the money, the oil (frankly, as important as this stuff is its just really really boring to hear, it doesn't feel real)... but whatever it is independence is a risk, a big big risk and one that I don't trust in Salmond's hands.

My fear may be rational or irrational but it's just not happening for me, not this time at least.

Ah fuck, I don't know if I even believed what I just typed, its all too confusing! Oh well, it'll be an interesting week.

I've found the referendum to be a fascinating thing, because it's generally not the sort of thing that happens in a lifetime. As an outsider looking in, it makes sense that Scotland would be frustrated that its voice in the UK government doesn't seem to be heard (as the reps sent by Scotland are not a large enough block to really influence policy). Then again, the current Scottish parliament (to my understanding, at least) has a lot of control over the way Scottish affairs are run.

I think a free Scotland would be interesting to see (would Wales be next? Probably not, because the last time Wales debated the issue it got pretty soundly defeated, and anyway Wales doesn't have oil fields to potentially run itself off of. I love Wales, but they've got sheep to sell and that's about it. That won't even win you a round of Settlers of Catan, much less run a country). Scotland's desire to have Trident out of their backyard isn't something I can blame them for either. The question is super close (I think I saw the BBC reporting a poll of something like 51 for, 49 against recently), and the idea of a round of peaceful negotiations in the event of a yes vote seems almost laughable, but at the same time I'd really like to see it happen. I imagine it would be a process taking years before an official cutting of ties, hopefully enough for passions to cool and negotiations to take place in good faith.

Maybe Scottish universities would have cheaper tuition for foreign students and I could finally go work on my phd (we live in hope). After all, the Scottish should have an appreciation for what immigrants can do for them (*coughcoughcoughWilliamWallacewasWelshcoughcoughcough*).

I was in Scotland (beautiful fucking country by the way) this summer and while I did see a lot of white and blue "YES"-signs out in the countryside most of the people I talked to seemed pretty undecided. It would be more interesting to see what would happen if people vote yes, but I have no idea which scenario would be best for the people. Having been to Culloden Moor it's at least nice to see a campaign for independence no longer filled with violence.

@tirion: The yes voters are far more vocal and upfront about showing their colours. Lots of badges, posters, signs in windows. If you took a cursory look around town here in Edinburgh it feels like 10:1 yes:no even though that's not the reality.

@ewansuttie:

Agreed, it's concerning somewhat, because (blatant opinion commencing) I think that a "No" vote is an 'easy way out'. A victory for apathy and fear as such, where nothing really changes, Scotland gets given minor powers but nothing that really matters and a far step away from what it used to be.

The trouble is there are people out there that will dismiss a vote purely on the grounds of disliking the politician (granted conversely a vote can be bought by something as simple as making the tea I've heard). There's people who will not think about the actual consequences and effects when they vote and will just take the easy option.

So while the polls might be 51% Yes to 49% no, this is all going to come down to the undecided voters.

I'm Welsh, and I can't believe any Scot wouldn't jump at the chance to get away from the toxic British ruling class. The politics of fear have really come to the forefront recently and they have gotten increasingly dirty as the possibility of a yes has actually become more and more likely. What is the worst that can happen if you gain independence really? Because nothing at all will change with a 'no'.

I hope they vote yes for their own sake, even if it might be detrimental to the UK as a whole.

I say the Scotland should vote yes! Shake things up a little.

Scottish here. Personally, I was undecided until very recently, having finally deciding to vote yes. Of course this is a risk and can go either way, but to me it just feels like the right move for Scotland and the Scottish people.

It would be interesting but given that we don't actually know who would benefit and how it seems like an odd thing. Obviously if there was some amazing amount of tyranny going on or what have you then the course would be more certain.

As a general rule the less enormous (enormous in this context meaning governing millions of people) governments there are the better, i.e. 4 or 5 countries compose the entire planet; having more small countries just leads to them being largely subservient to what large ones there are. Now if everything was split up into say 100 person groups then that's the utopian ideal where equality is actually a thing, but accepting that that's impossible pre massive depopulation event it's better to just have a handful of really huge continent spanning nations.

At least if Scotland does leave hopefully people will stop referring to anyone from the UK as 'British'. LOL JK that won't ever happen.

I am Scottish and voting no for much of what you list I will talk about that more later. BUT your little statement of Wanting to make decisions ourselves and how that is a movie dream is wrong.

Scotland is pretty powerless in 90% of UK government rulings and that is after the new parliament was formed. I want Devolution of government and have Scotland run itself more NOT independence! The way things go Scotland a unanimous vote against something that affects them badly, yet England votes the other way...no not england. LONDON alone votes the other way our voice is lost, Scotland is 52 continuances and the entire mass of England is 500 with London over 100.

If Northern Ireland, Wales AND Scotland all banded together on a matter and voted the complete opposite of England....it still only needs half of England to negate.

Bedroom tax and a number of other bonkers taxation moves have had Scotland just seeth in hatred toward the Tory party, so the Tories are the worst people to let Scotland vote because the recent memories and utter hatred towards them will surely spur a lot more people into voting yes.

So your statement is wrong that we are all dreamy eyed for freedom, we have weekly remembrance of the state of things and we are just sick of feeling like nothing and having an utter lack of control over our lives.

However the big thing about supporting ourselves financially with independence is the north sea oil! Guess what Scotland does not have!? The North sea oil! My friend who works at the Ineos oil refinery in Grangemouth (that refines the north sea oil) has 80% of the workforce negotiating for their jobs because 60% will be laid off as they cannot afford them. Why? BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE OIL!

Alex Salmond says "We have the north sea oil! Scotland will be rich like Norway! We have no plan B!" We he best think of a plan B cos there is no Plan A! Ineos is starting to build fracking platforms out of the Firth and Forth sea inlet for gas, which is no way as lucrative as oil however is super important in not letting Scotland grind to stand still. They are ordering oil from America that is how much of a lack of oil Scotland has, yet is the whole financial plan for keeping Scotland afloat.

So many people think under Yes they will be rich, they forget about what if it goes wrong and have no thought to it.

I had a taxi driver talk about it and his pressing issues he brought up with the sun newspapers reporters was....what happens when we go independent ( he was sure) were would his tv licence go....because he didn't want it to go to england......

It is fucked and even more if we fail at independence. Every Scot wants it but many are realists and know we cannot go Independent.

Besides give it 20 years and we will be a state of Europe than a country......

@akyho: My comment regarding the Braveheart movie was related to the uplifting nationalism that has motivated the young Scottish generation. I would say the majority of the young Scots are basing their vote on more heart than head. If they are given enough information about both sides, they can then make an informed decision about their future.

English here - I'm not really backing a side because it's not my place to, and whichever way it goes I hope that's the best for the Scottish people.

That said, I am a little worried about how quickly this is moving along and how little reliable information there seems to be out there. Obviously this is always the way of things with politics, but I get the sense that many people are voting with their gut for sentimental reasons - either a love of the UK or a love of independence. I guess my only real hope going in to this is that people vote rationally rather than emotionally, because this isn't the sort of decision that'll go away after a few years like an MP.

He's called Karl Pilkington

@ewansuttie: Yeah I guess it makes sense in some ways that they would be more vocal. It feels like that's usually the case that the side that's campaigning for a change get out more then the side that wants to keep things the way they are.

I don't want to derail the thread but are you being serious? I'm a Canadian currently living in Scotland and every time I hear someone bring up the Quebec referendum in conjunction with Scottish independence I roll my eyes. The two situations could not be further apart. I feel that, besides the language issue, western Canada is much more marginalized than Quebec currently is. Scotland's effect on the larger political landscape of the UK is relatively minor (being only 10% of the total population) where as Quebec can sway entire elections. Quebec essentially determined the last election. Had they voted liberal, Ignatieff would be PM but they voted NDP which gave that party official opposition status.

Personally, I think French should be a larger (if not mandatory) part of the Canadian education curriculum. Being a bilingual country is what makes us unique and has been a defining part of our culture. So I really don't get the Quebec separatist grievances as there are other parts of the country that are going through similar issues. Heck, even certain First Nations issues have similar language grievances as Quebec. Luckily, I feel like the whole secessionist feelings in Quebec have been on a downwards trend since most young people see the very real and very impactful place Quebec has in Canada. I don't think Scotland can say the same thing.

Scottland has wanted to be free of England for centuries and Englishmen are talking about how rushed this feels, lmao

I like Chvrches... does that have any impact on this discussion?

@bargainben: When I say rushed, I do not mean rushed in the sense of 'too soon'. I think this is a discussion that should have happened long ago. I think it's overdue in many peoples eyes, Scottish, English and worldwide. What I mean by it feeling rushed is that it wasn't even a year ago that this referendum was formally proposed, and there has been relatively little time for either side to seriously discuss or investigate the benefits or drawbacks of independence in the world today. Should the referendum come up 'Yes', there are a lot of batons that will need to be passed, responsibilities shifted to new hands and institutions put in to place that have only had a short time to be planned, and could make for some rough times if they're not ready for the task.

Maybe I'm just being overly cautious - it's something I tend to do. But like you say, this is something that has been centuries in the making and it does worry me a little that such a momentous thing may be decided with less of a run-up than most elections.

These kinds of independence movements always feel like someone is vying for more power where they believe they can do so by replacing those at the top with themselves but without much of a plan.

That said, I do think there is something to fuller devolution that is more like a federal system would do a lot of good including devolution for an English Parliament as well.

This is a big issue for Scotland and I hope it turns out well.

I don't really know anything about politics in that area of the world, or even really politics and economics on that scale in general, so I can't really make comments about it, but in the US we have similar things- what with TX having crazy people talking about splitting us off from the US for many years now- so I can somewhat empathize with the concept and the hard choice everyone in Scotland will bare from this.

Chvches is awesome. I hereby cede my non-existent vote to Chvrches by proxy.

If Scotland does secede - they should immediately declare war on England. Just to freak people out.