True Detective S2 True Talk (Spoilers)

Like, I understand that it was kinda blurred, but they totally showed full penetration sex, right?

I know this is HBO, but that seemed a little much?

After having watched the second episode I still think that they have too many main characters. To me this show should be about following a pair of detectives trying to solve a case not being forced to switch between multiple characters which makes the storytelling a bit too chaotic to me.

One of the reasons that I liked season 1 was that we got to know the main characters pretty well and we kinda found out about the plot as we went along. Now for some reason we are also following a criminal as one of the 4 main characters in the plot. I just dont understand why he has to have such a prominent part to play in the show. In this episode 2 it seemed that we spent more time with him than with any of the 3 other main characters.

@nardak: Welp, it looks like there's one less character we're going to be dealing with.

@tajasaurus: they did but who knows what the rules are when it comes to actual porn sites and how harsh the blur needs to be. HBO also showed half a cock on The Brink so I dunno.

There is so much James Ellroy in this season the guy should get a credit, I'm not even joking.

The Taylor Kitsch character is a young highly strung police officer who is likely a repressed homosexual and that's the reason he can't get it up for his girlfriend = Danny Upshaw from The Big Nowhere

The Collin Farrel character is a drunk corrupt cop who's in the midst of custody battle for a kid that isn't even his = an amalgamation of Buzz Meeks and Mal Considine.

Everything from the overriding theme of sexuality to the rotating character arcs with multiple points of view and the political inner workings of a corrupt LA police force are are all straight Ellroy.

Well, shit.

I'm on team rocksalt shot over here. He ain't dead.

I wish James Ellroy was writing the scripts on this. The dialogue would be much better.

But at least we got some forward momentum yesterday and some of the plot weirdness is intriguing in regards to the city manager's death. I'll stick with TD for now.

@jonny_anonymous: Yes, just not only Ellroy, the series is so noir the only thing lacking is to be shot in black & white...

The moment I realize the conspiracy was about the interests of a real estate company in suburban LA, a plot twist that was in Chinatown, L.A. Noire and even Roger Rabbit, I kind of lost a lot of interest in it...

@stryker1121: Yeah but Ellroy is a total luddite, he doesn't watch tv or movies or anything.

@original_hank: I'm saying he is dead but the character continues to appear through flashbacks.

I'm starting to get Batman's Court of Owls vibes from the way things are going at the moment.

OK just watched it.

Shit what, that ending! Fuck. I was thinking about 2/3rds of the way through that Farrell is my favourite thing about the season at the moment, and I liked the setup of him being an ambiguous party in solving the case.

If he's actually dead then I will be kinda pissed off. He has provided the only comic relief so far. I was legitimately laughing at his line about the e-cigarette and Mcadams' 'what the fuck are you talking about' expression. I'm fine with major characters being killed off but they would be losing the most appealing part of the show. But hey, I guess Casper was tortured first so maybe he has a way out.

Other than that, things are moving along now which is nice. Didn't realise that Frank would be in financial trouble so quickly.

The Miserable Bar Singer returned! I really hope she's not in every episode.

That exploded crotch shot.

Kitsch not really doing anything all episode aside telling people he's going to LA and then having an argument.

I thought the opening monologue was fine but kinda turned a bit silly when he said 'and then the rats came'.

Casper's therapist was pretty great though.

@paulmako: Completely agree about Farrell's character. The other three leads are not very compelling to me at the moment. And the overall plot about the shady real estate deal is kinda boring and lacks focus. The more interesting approach would be how the different detectives interact with each other ( and hopefully stab each other in the back) but I'm not convinced the show can pull it off yet. Also, Vaughn seems way out of his acting comfort zone so far. He's at his best intimidating that guy on the side of the road, not delivering groan inducing monologues about his world being made out of papier mache.

Lord I hope so. I enjoyed this second episode just like the first. It's interesting to see the layers on these characters slowly getting peeled away. This sort of exposition is what usually draws me in to a story, it's why I got Her Story after 5 minutes of watching the Quick Look - just wanted to know more about that woman.

@conmulligan: How was it clumsy and nonsensical?

@ssully: Clumsy because the way the scene was shot robbed it of tension made Velcoro look like a dumbass. Nonsensical because I find it implausible that Ray would go to the apartment alone and late at night when he had seemingly just severed ties with Seymon and established a working relationship with Bezzerides. It also makes zero sense to kill off the only character that approaches interesting a quarter of the way in. It’s possible Ray's death will pay off later on, but these first two episodes don’t give me a lot of confidence in the back six.

@straightgrizzly: Spoiler tags.

@conmulligan: How did he look like a dumbass?

He is already established as being a person who doesn't do things by the book. Also he has interests outside the actual investigation; going alone to get info for Frank makes complete sense.

Finally you don't seem to have an understanding of how serialized story telling works. If you honestly believe the end of the episode wont be addressed, justified, or have any repercussions then you shouldn't be watching the show.

Seriously, CHARACTER NAME getting shot (and hopefully dying) has been the only source of joy this season.

@ssully said:

He went to a creepy apartment at night with no backup, didn't notice the car conspicuously parked outside and didn't think to draw his weapon until it was way past too late. Dumbass!

The episode already established that he isn't interested in working for Frank anymore, so I don't see any motivation to go there alone.

Of course they'll address it, but I don't have a lot of faith that they'll do it satisfactorily or in a way that pays off. Just because a show is serialised doesn't make it good or logically consistent, and each episode still has to work on its own. It's okay if you dug the episode, but you don't need to be condescending because I didn't.

@ssully: He put his gun away after seeing a pool of blood on the floor. Investigating a house connected to a guy that was just tortured and murdered. The stereo system was on and playing music for crying out loud, clearly indicating someone was still in the house. Granted, drinking heavily as he was impairs your judgement but not that much.

Yeah, I agree, Also he just had a small mental breakdown at the bar, talking about fucking you know what and also probably being slightly drunk.

He walked in where there was a full sink with a dripping tap on. To me that says, "Something bad happened here a few days ago". The music being on still while having a filled sink also indicates, "someone either left in a hurry, or is dead".

This is a person who is established already of doing dangerous shit solo(Last episode he went and beat up a reporter, and also beat up that kids dad.).

What do you mean he isn't interested in working with Frank anymore? During their meeting he was down(due to the prospect of losing his son), but he never terminated his business relationship with Frank.

It has nothing to do with me being upset that you didn't enjoy the episode, it's that you linger on details that are clearly threads that will be continued later in the episode. You addressed his (potential) death as idiotic on the writers part because you couldn't believe they would kill one of the best characters so early. You responded by saying that you believe they will actually address this, but fill fail to deliver satisfactory justification. I just can't imagine why you are even bothering watching a show when you don't think it can satisfy your curiosity.

Killing off that miserable pile of secrets would be the shot in the nads this show needs. I don't dislike Paul (repressed cop) as much as some people and Bezzeridis (sp) is shaping up to be halfway interesting. Watching Farrell grind out bad dialogue while Fiona Apple's older sister wails in the background is something I could live without.

He isn't dead. A shot to the gut with a shotgun would leave chunks of him all over the room at that range. It was rock salt to scare him or something.

Also, I assumed when he first entered the room the music had been on since the murder happened. Literally days. The walls were clearly soundproofed.

Ugh... I know. That monologue seems pulled from the journal of grimdark angsty teen trying to impress himself with his own edge. Or an issue of Todd McFarlane's Spawn from the 90's. Same difference.

@galacticpunt: His delivery didn't help it none. The only time so far Vince Vaughn has felt somewhat natural and not in ACTING! mode was at the end of last night when he was talking to Dirty Cop in the bar.

@straightgrizzly: Seriously, dude, mark that as spoilers. Not cool.

I continue to be baffled by folks' lack of patience with this show. No denying that it's moving at an unconventional pace, but I don't mind that in the least. I've gotten so accustomed to the usual approach to thrillers that anything out of the ordinary is welcome to me at this point. Issue with that old and tried, and increasingly tired, take is that you can't really colour people's decisions early on the same way you can later on in the cycle, after the audience has better gotten to know the characters and can understand their motivations. You gotta' ease the people at home into the mindset of the characters before you can do something genuinely interesting with them.

This season's gone out of it's way to side-step that by presenting it's cast, their dirty secrets and many, many flaws right out of the gate. And I think that's something we're going to see pay off in dividends fairly early on as the case itself is beginning to pick up speed. That last scene's a perfect example. A cop going out to check out a potential crime-scene by himself? I'd usually not buy it, but after seeing Ray's apathy after the discussion with his ex-wife and learning of his manic tendencies in the first episode, I believe that's very much something he would do. And hell if what happened to him didn't seem fitting considering his words in the bar.

I've really been digging this season so far, so this comment section is a real bummer. People seem real interested in pointing out "flaws". Hopefully a few episodes more of the actual case will help folks along, but eh, to each their own.

On a separate note, anyone else notice the lyrics in the second half of the opening song were completely different from last episode? In retrospect, the lyrics seem thematically tied to the events of the episode itself, which I think is a really cool touch. Hopefully they'll keep that up.

@do_the_manta_ray: The problem I have is with the characters and writing - the machinations of the case are actually ok. But the characters are all miserable people and none of it feels earned. Ray has nothing in life but the son he berates and calls a fat pussy. Semyon monologues about being eaten by rats in the first 3 minutes of episode 2 - is that the root of his existential crisis? We basically don't know any of these characters besides the ceaseless hellscape of their lives, presented with no humor or a shred of irony. As I've heard some people opine, it's like everyone on this show is Rust, but there's no Marty (who was basically an audience surrogate) around to check Rust's philosophical blathering.

The way these people are presented feels disjointed, and it's making it hard to care about the main plot arc of the case. Believe me I want to like the show after very much enjoying the off-kilter vibe TD put out last year...I'm just not feeling these characters thus far.

Season 1 is classic and will never be topped (by virtue of being the first one) I think Season 2 is shaping up too. Season 1 was about two dudes working together. Season 2 is about three people sneaking glances at each other, trying to figure out what the hell their deal is. That scene in the morgue was amazing, albeit a confusing info dump. They all have different agendas but have to at least pretend to work together.

You say Vaughn is weird as one of the 4 MC's. While he is a criminal, he isn't the criminal.

The season is only 8 episodes long. I think I can wait another 6 weeks before calcifying my opinion of it.

@ssully said:

There's a difference between recklessness and stupidity. I can get behind a temerarious protagonist, but when that devolves into raw idiocy I have a hard time not rolling my eyes, because it's obviously a dramatic contrivance to place the character in peril. There are things they could have done to contextualise his actions more if that's the route they wanted to go down, but they didn't. Like I said, clumsy.

They don't spell it out in black and white, but it's clearly implied that Ray is no longer interested in being Frank's lackey. His candidness with Ani, saying to Frank that he won't play ball and then leaving the money behind all point to this.

Just because I'm down on the first two episodes, and that scene in particular, doesn't mean there aren't parts of the show I like or that I'm not interested in seeing how the rest of season plays out. You can be critical of something and still be kind of into it at the same time!

@stryker1121: Unlike the first season, I don't think this batch of protagonists are supposed to be "the good guys". Rust and Marty were damaged, sure, each in their own way, but they were likeable. They were portrayed as people others were drawn to, and that did end up including the audience once we got to know 'em. That don't seem to be the case for this season. We're dealing with a bunch of unapologetically fucked up individuals who seem intent on blaming their own faults on the people around them. Ray, for instance, is a genuinely repulsive character, and they go out of their way in this episode to cement that he isn't misunderstood, he is in fact a bad person. But he's interesting, and that's the pull.

So you're right, neither he nor Frank have earned the right to be complaining the way they do, but they're frustrated and selfish. In Ray's case specifically, I will say that watching your kid get bullied, and more so, get so accustomed to being trod on that he/she gives up is like few other things out there. That anger, and that hate towards "Ass-pen" is something I can relate to. And it's horrible, but any parent who's seen their kid go through something like that will tell you, there were times they wanted to kill those other kids.

We'll see how it pans out in the end, but at least they're trying something different with this season, that's for sure.

It's generally assumed any spoilers we provide will ruin the surprise for anyone who hasn't been watching the show up to date, rather than 99 % of everyone who has watched the latest episode. Any material from outside that scope, be it leaked clips, pictures, episodes, etc. is something you should treat carefully. And we have a great system for that in the form of spoiler blocks. I mean, hell, I stumbled over your comment and really wish I hadn't.

Wow, didn't know half of Giant Bomb considered themselves a poor man's Roger Ebert.

Anyway, I think this season is good so far. Not season one good yet, but two episodes in, how is that even possible? And if they're confident enough to kill off Velcoro this early on, that has to be a good sign.

@straightgrizzly: Well, I expected spoilers for what has already aired, not for that which hasn't aired, like everyone else in this thread.

Maybe it would be a good idea for the OP or a MOD to do a first post rules edit, like the Game of Thrones thread that was along the lines of "Aired episodes are fair game, stuff that is leaked ahead of the air date is not." sort of a thing just so everyone is on the same page and we can all get along!

@zolroyce: I'll add info to the first post.

@conmulligan:Saying that you have no faith the writers can justify their decision on a very major, early plot point in a show seems more then criticism to me. If I disliked a writers decision that much I don't think I would continue consuming their work.

Yeah that's just plain ol' doubt.

Not to get too meta on the thread, but has anyone noticed a distinct turn on this show (and by extension the writer) over the last six to eight months? Before the first episode aired it was like I could hear critics sharpening their knives. I'm not saying the show is great so far. It's not great yet; I just find it strange that so many critics seemed to turn on True Detective.

Also I'm convinced that the first season was lightning in a bottle. That's not a bad thing considering how outstanding it was, but I think people who have been disappointed so far would do well to consider that it's highly unlikely this show, or any show really, can hit that kind of peak regularly. Or ever again.

@theht@ssully: I didn't say I had no faith, I said I had little faith that one particular plot point would pay off based on how clunky the first two episodes have been. If I thought the series was completely irredemable, then I would stop watching.

I just watched episode 2 and so far I've found it to be super boring, with zero characters I want to know more about. I'm surprised so many people like Farrell's character in this thread.

I didn't love the first season until two or three episodes in, so I'm giving this a chance. The biggest difference is that I was never bored by it, and this is just uninteresting characters with uninteresting dialogue padded out by a bunch of artsy shots of the scenery with moody music playing over them.

I feel like I'm being tricked into watching episode 3 just to see what happens to that character. If I didn't love the first season, and wasn't super curious to see if the makers of the show have the balls to kill someone that early on I'd be done with it.

I'm not surprised. Critics have a tendency to adbot that "it's not what I want" or "it's not as great" mentality.

I don't understand what in the world would be the Hotline Miami guys motivation to use non lethal weapon in that situation other then for the sole reason to leave the episode on some cliffhanger then be like GOTCHA next episode. More then likely they play it off as him having a bullet proof vest or something, but that wouldn't do shit against a shotgun at point blank range. Just feels like a super cheap tactic, and the writers were like well shit nothing happened this episode, how about this for the end.

*edit* Actually just went back and watched the scene and he clearly isn't wearing a bullet broof vest and the 2nd shot produces blood spray so either he's dead or he was shot with magic rainbow bullets. Either way comes off as super cheap, like someone has been watching too much Game of Thrones or something.

@top8gamer:Yeah. As annoyed as I would be to see Velcoro written out so early, it would also be pretty lame if he survives that attack.

I think the only way they can get out of it is if Hotline Miami guy is only intending to scare Velcoro, but then two shotgun blasts to the torso are probably a risky way to scare someone. And what point would there be to only scare him? He's already seen birdman, has seen the location where the crime seemingly happened.

I guess they could fill in the rest of his story through flashbacks, but I liked the setup with present day Velcoro.

I hate Vince Vaughn in this already.. But Collin Farrell is actually pretty great so far, I'm genuinely surprised.

I guess I'm in the minority on this, but I really like this season. It has a dark noir feeling to me that runs counter to the last season which felt more like the classic detective story done right. Episode 2 sold me on what they're doing with this season. The contrast between the three main detectives who are all some level of shitty and Vince Vaughn who seems to be the most sympathetic is really clicking with me. There have also already been some great "green ears" type clues such as the painting of a man with a crows head in the creepy therapists office or the fact that Annie was looking at porn sites which had words like dirty wings lead me to believe that like last season we are going to be able to piece this all together at some point. It's different for sure, but that's what I want for this series. Just like American Horror Story, I'd imagine there will be seasons that don't click with people, and that's okay.

It's a channel that shows Softcore porn, man dicks, vaginas, and boatload of boobs every chance it gets, the jump to full-on porn is not a big one. And with it as blurred as it was it's hard to be shocked by it.