We all know that winning a debate in an internet forum is like winning in the special olympics: in the end, you're still a retard. But that doesn't mean I can't go and ask the Godists on these forums one simple question. It's not about whether or not god exists, because that thread already exists.
My question for those who believe in it is this: What is the use in believing in God? Is there a value (material or otherwise) accrued to you by accepting this theory?
I want to know why you accept the idea of god? There must be some reason beyond parents and your surrounding culture. Or is there?
What is the utility of God?
I believe in God and i think most people believe in God because it gives them faith, faith that there is something better beyond this awful world.
I believe most humans like to have some sort of security. A sense that they will continue to exist even after there physical bodies fade. God also usually, (and I'm talking about the Christian God because he is the only one I am familiar with) is an embodiment of goodness, so people try to mold their lives after that example. Even if he does exist, it's still never a bad idea to try and be better.
Does that not then just prevent them from trying to make the world better? They accept the world exists as it does, and their reward for getting through it without killing anyone is whatever reality beyond existence is? Isn't that a pretty dangerous wager to make? To live what might be your only life assuming that there's something better beyond it? What if you're wrong, and you wasted your only chance at existence?
"We all know that winning a debate in an internet forum is like winning in the special olympics: in the end, you're still a retard. But that doesn't mean I can't go and ask the Godists on these forums one simple question. It's not about whether or not god exists, because that thread already exists.My question for those who believe in it is this: What is the use in believing in God? Is there a value (material or otherwise) accrued to you by accepting this theory?I want to know why you accept the idea of god? There must be some reason beyond parents and your surrounding culture. Or is there?"Because I would rather spend an hour of my life each week going to Church just in case so I can go to a place of eternal bliss when I die in stead of going to hell if I'm wrong. Its not like living in the confines of its morality system is more strict than what is taken as good moral choices in common society anyway.
"Does that not then just prevent them from trying to make the world better? They accept the world exists as it does, and their reward for getting through it without killing anyone is whatever reality beyond existence is? Isn't that a pretty dangerous wager to make? To live what might be your only life assuming that there's something better beyond it? What if you're wrong, and you wasted your only chance at existence?"The idea of God is universal. A being that is not bound by time and space and has the power to fix all. Human life is a speck in the timeline of the existence of the earth, so people try and believe that there is a God to watch over people silently, and that there is an existence after death.
How do you know the Jesus-building-builders are right though, Cloneslayer? How do you know you're not sinning every time you set foot in that building? How do you know the Jesus-building-builders have all the answers? Doesn't faith in god in the modern world come down to faith in the possibility that other people aren't lying to you so they can take your money and build more Jesus-buildings?
"How do you know the Jesus-building-builders are right though, Cloneslayer? How do you know you're not sinning every time you set foot in that building? How do you know the Jesus-building-builders have all the answers? Doesn't faith in god in the modern world come down to faith in the possibility that other people aren't lying to you so they can take your money and build more Jesus-buildings?"Because the values that the Bible teaches speak to our innate sense of right and wrong. We all know that killing is wrong, stealing is bad, and so on, and the Bible just reinforces that.
I'm going to bed for now but before I leave I want to make some closing remarks.
I believe in God, but I would be lieing to you if I said I did not, and do not, question his existence everyday. It is very hard to see that he is there, i know, but I just hold on a when I really think about, I'm taking a blind leap. I don't really know if this is all a waste of time or not. Maybe I am wrong. I don't know. But I really hope I am and I hope what lies beyond this life is good. And I'll take everything I know about how God can exist and use it to help me keep beliveing. But thats all I can do, and its frustrating. But hell... thats life.
"But the Bible also contradicts its most basic tenets in various segments of it. And religious leaders have broken the laws of the book on an industrial scale in order to defend the sanctity of the book. Doesn't the book's bloody history undermine the value contained within it?"Most of the contradictions people seem to find are only because they are not knowledgeable about anything. To be able to find contradiction means you must fully understand the material and it's rare you find someone who does. Most things are related again to what we perceive as reality and what the Bible states. For an example, the Bible says that the earth was created in 7 days. People take that literally, but seem to forget that the concept of God is not bound by our same rules. His 7 days could be an infinite amount of time to us. Also I'd like mention that the sects that the people have created go against what the Bible itself says. Christianity is not supposed to be a religion. It is supposed to be a faith connected directly between you and God. To take that and then turn it into a huge cult like thing like Catholicism is wrong from the Bibles own point of view. The moment that we take something to an extreme and we start killing in the name of God is the very moment that we contradict his teachings.
"But Bible scholars and historians will tell you that segments of the Bible were omitted, and other segments were added, at the request of Political leaders. Does that not indicate that the Bible is a tool of political control?"The cannon of the bible differs from denomination to denomination, but If you take the catholic cannon, it hasnt changed since its creation.
The catholic church (yes I always use catholics, not because I think they are 100% right, but I think they are the most right) has a direct line you can trace back to Jesus of successors that helps preserve the teachings and its reliabilities.
OK, seriously Im going to bed now, I swear.
"Suicrat said:I disagree. We know for fact that the Bible was tampered with by various Popes, Saints and Priests, and that Catholicism abide by rules that aren't even in the Bible."But Bible scholars and historians will tell you that segments of the Bible were omitted, and other segments were added, at the request of Political leaders. Does that not indicate that the Bible is a tool of political control?"The cannon of the bible differs from denomination to denomination, but If you take the catholic cannon, it hasnt changed since its creation.The catholic church (yes I always use catholics, not because I think they are 100% right, but I think they are the most right) has a direct line you can trace back to Jesus of successors that helps preserve the teachings and its reliabilities.OK, seriously Im going to bed now, I swear."
"Cloneslayer said:yes, we do know that the bible has been altered, but ever alteration I have seen mention, is know, and taken into account (to my knoweldge anyway). There is a reason we dont take the Bible for fact."Suicrat said:I disagree. We know for fact that the Bible was tampered with by various Popes, Saints and Priests, and that Catholicism abide by rules that aren't even in the Bible.""But Bible scholars and historians will tell you that segments of the Bible were omitted, and other segments were added, at the request of Political leaders. Does that not indicate that the Bible is a tool of political control?"The cannon of the bible differs from denomination to denomination, but If you take the catholic cannon, it hasnt changed since its creation.The catholic church (yes I always use catholics, not because I think they are 100% right, but I think they are the most right) has a direct line you can trace back to Jesus of successors that helps preserve the teachings and its reliabilities.OK, seriously Im going to bed now, I swear."
And the reason that Catholics have rules that aren't in the bible is simple. Do you think the bible cover for every situation? or that it holds up well in modern day? No. So they pope throws out some new rules and whatnot. I do think the curch gets powerhungry enforcing some of them but like I said before, I dont agree with 100% of catholisim, I just htink they got it the most right.
You mention the scientific problems in the Bible. I'm not sitting here saying God doesn't exist or the Bible is false because it purports to contain accounts of multiple-century-long lives.
I'm just going to take the most popular of the 10 Commandments: Thou Shalt Not Kill
How many characters in the Bible are killed? What is the punishment for the killer? Sometimes there isn't a punishment, sometimes, the killer gets a wife. Sometimes he gets a kingdom.
What is the moral salience of thesestories? God will find you a partner if you commit fratricide? God will reward you with Political power for killing the right person? Doesn't that just make the Bible a thought experiment in Real Politik?
What is the moral salience of the story of Job? It seems to me the moral of that story is: don't believe in God.
Also, the conception of God contained within the bible is constantly changing. Does that not mean god is a chimera? Or are you going to take the pantheistic approach and say God is all things at all times? Or are you going to say that God can be found in the penumbra of life, like the physical properties of a water molecule? Shouldn't we then either worship material reality, or at least, worship water?
Why worship, praise, or even believe in something that had people write a book that gave intentionally elusive descriptions of it? The Biblical conception of God is that of a real douchebag. Is it not?
If I'm right, then we're back to the first question: what's the value?
If I'm wrong then we're onto a new one: why try and revere something that doesn't want you to know it's there? It's like playing hide and seek with the wind.
Of course, I'm probably wrong about all this, aren't I?
I do think that last post got off topic a little bit. We are suppose to be saying why we believe in God, not going over the validity of the Bible or the Catholic Church.
"LiquidPrince said:The Pope is a nobody however... No man is holier than another. One can try and live a good life, but you can never become holier then another person. Besides, the Pope is elected by a bunch of other people who think they are supremely holy so that makes him invalid automatically. It's not like he was chosen by God...I think Catholicism is the one that got it the most wrong aside from Mormons and stuff."Cloneslayer said:yes, we do know that the bible has been altered, but ever alteration I have seen mention, is know, and taken into account (to my knoweldge anyway). There is a reason we dont take the Bible for fact. And the reason that Catholics have rules that aren't in the bible is simple. Do you think the bible cover for every situation? or that it holds up well in modern day? No. So they pope throws out some new rules and whatnot. I do think the curch gets powerhungry enforcing some of them but like I said before, I dont agree with 100% of catholisim, I just htink they got it the most right.""Suicrat said:I disagree. We know for fact that the Bible was tampered with by various Popes, Saints and Priests, and that Catholicism abide by rules that aren't even in the Bible.""But Bible scholars and historians will tell you that segments of the Bible were omitted, and other segments were added, at the request of Political leaders. Does that not indicate that the Bible is a tool of political control?"The cannon of the bible differs from denomination to denomination, but If you take the catholic cannon, it hasnt changed since its creation.The catholic church (yes I always use catholics, not because I think they are 100% right, but I think they are the most right) has a direct line you can trace back to Jesus of successors that helps preserve the teachings and its reliabilities.OK, seriously Im going to bed now, I swear."
"You mention the scientific problems in the Bible. I'm not sitting here saying God doesn't exist or the Bible is false because it purports to contain accounts of multiple-century-long lives.Well think of it this way. The old testament, which you are focusing on, was written for people who lived thousands of years ago. I don't think anyone will say that those stories consist of fact, and most don't hold up to modern day scrutiny. Its more of tradition lasting thousands of years that they stay. You go to look to the New Testament, all the Jesus stuff, to see all the good moral lessons crammed in the Bible.
I'm just going to take the most popular of the 10 Commandments: Thou Shalt Not Kill
How many characters in the Bible are killed? What is the punishment for the killer? Sometimes there isn't a punishment, sometimes, the killer gets a wife. Sometimes he gets a kingdom.
What is the moral salience of thesestories? God will find you a partner if you commit fratricide? God will reward you with Political power for killing the right person? Doesn't that just make the Bible a thought experiment in Real Politik?What is the moral salience of the story of Job? It seems to me the moral of that story is: don't believe in God.Also, the conception of God contained within the bible is constantly changing. Does that not mean god is a chimera? Or are you going to take the pantheistic approach and say God is all things at all times? Or are you going to say that God can be found in the penumbra of life, like the physical properties of a water molecule? Shouldn't we then either worship material reality, or at least, worship water?Why worship, praise, or even believe in something that had people write a book that gave intentionally elusive descriptions of it? The Biblical conception of God is that of a real douchebag. Is it not?If I'm right, then we're back to the first question: what's the value?If I'm wrong then we're onto a new one: why try and revere something that doesn't want you to know it's there? It's like playing hide and seek with the wind.Of course, I'm probably wrong about all this, aren't I?"
"You mention the scientific problems in the Bible. I'm not sitting here saying God doesn't exist or the Bible is false because it purports to contain accounts of multiple-century-long lives.The story of Cain and Abel takes place before the commandments were put into place. Back then, even incest was not considered a sin. The ten commandments came with Moses and were then detailed by Jesus.
I'm just going to take the most popular of the 10 Commandments: Thou Shalt Not Kill
How many characters in the Bible are killed? What is the punishment for the killer? Sometimes there isn't a punishment, sometimes, the killer gets a wife. Sometimes he gets a kingdom.
What is the moral salience of thesestories? God will find you a partner if you commit fratricide? God will reward you with Political power for killing the right person? Doesn't that just make the Bible a thought experiment in Real Politik?What is the moral salience of the story of Job? It seems to me the moral of that story is: don't believe in God.Also, the conception of God contained within the bible is constantly changing. Does that not mean god is a chimera? Or are you going to take the pantheistic approach and say God is all things at all times? Or are you going to say that God can be found in the penumbra of life, like the physical properties of a water molecule? Shouldn't we then either worship material reality, or at least, worship water?Why worship, praise, or even believe in something that had people write a book that gave intentionally elusive descriptions of it? The Biblical conception of God is that of a real douchebag. Is it not?If I'm right, then we're back to the first question: what's the value?If I'm wrong then we're onto a new one: why try and revere something that doesn't want you to know it's there? It's like playing hide and seek with the wind.Of course, I'm probably wrong about all this, aren't I?"
"Cloneslayer said:Half you talked to a catholic priest lately? Most of them are pretty humble people, and aside from some (rather most) of the middle-ages popes, popes are to. I mean look at John Paul II. No way he thought he was better than anyone, look at his origins, he was a humble as it gets. Yes the pope is elected by people, and the pope is a person, but thats the best we got to work with. Its not like God comes down to give us new rules every hundred years or so that help us live our lives in the modern day like the pope tries to do. Yes, there is some arrogant bitches out there, and some of them have been pope, but I believe in the past few popes and there ability to successfully guide the people who need help."LiquidPrince said:The Pope is a nobody however... No man is holier than another. One can try and live a good life, but you can never become holier then another person. Besides, the Pope is elected by a bunch of other people who think they are supremely holy so that makes him invalid automatically. It's not like he was chosen by God...I think Catholicism is the one that got it the most wrong aside from Mormons and stuff.""Cloneslayer said:yes, we do know that the bible has been altered, but ever alteration I have seen mention, is know, and taken into account (to my knoweldge anyway). There is a reason we dont take the Bible for fact. And the reason that Catholics have rules that aren't in the bible is simple. Do you think the bible cover for every situation? or that it holds up well in modern day? No. So they pope throws out some new rules and whatnot. I do think the curch gets powerhungry enforcing some of them but like I said before, I dont agree with 100% of catholisim, I just htink they got it the most right.""Suicrat said:I disagree. We know for fact that the Bible was tampered with by various Popes, Saints and Priests, and that Catholicism abide by rules that aren't even in the Bible.""But Bible scholars and historians will tell you that segments of the Bible were omitted, and other segments were added, at the request of Political leaders. Does that not indicate that the Bible is a tool of political control?"The cannon of the bible differs from denomination to denomination, but If you take the catholic cannon, it hasnt changed since its creation.The catholic church (yes I always use catholics, not because I think they are 100% right, but I think they are the most right) has a direct line you can trace back to Jesus of successors that helps preserve the teachings and its reliabilities.OK, seriously Im going to bed now, I swear."
"But if God is eternal, wouldn't killing be wrong at every point in history?Or is the Bible a tool of social engineering, as I suggested before?"For God it is. But we do not live in the same plane as God. We exist in our own reality. If we all existed and understood things like God, then there would be no need for him and the world would be perfection. However we, like stated, do not live in the same reality as God, so we do not understand things like he does. Therefore he sends what he calls his rules and his laws whenever he sees fit. Whenever he finds it necessary. For example, incest at one point was not a sin because it was needed to grow human population. Since that was needed all consequences attached to it did not exist either. Once it became a rule that it was a sin was when it became the filth that it is considered today.
"LiquidPrince said:God does not come down anymore period. He has already given his rules and stated that Jesus was his last prophet, and thus what was written in the Bible are the only rules that a Christian needs to follow. I believe I remember that at one point women Catholics were not alowed to read the Bible. That was absurdity."Cloneslayer said:Half you talked to a catholic priest lately? Most of them are pretty humble people, and aside from some (rather most) of the middle-ages popes, popes are to. I mean look at John Paul II. No way he thought he was better than anyone, look at his origins, he was a humble as it gets. Yes the pope is elected by people, and the pope is a person, but thats the best we got to work with. Its not like God comes down to give us new rules every hundred years or so that help us live our lives in the modern day like the pope tries to do. Yes, there is some arrogant bitches out there, and some of them have been pope, but I believe in the past few popes and there ability to successfully guide the people who need help. ""LiquidPrince said:The Pope is a nobody however... No man is holier than another. One can try and live a good life, but you can never become holier then another person. Besides, the Pope is elected by a bunch of other people who think they are supremely holy so that makes him invalid automatically. It's not like he was chosen by God...I think Catholicism is the one that got it the most wrong aside from Mormons and stuff.""Cloneslayer said:yes, we do know that the bible has been altered, but ever alteration I have seen mention, is know, and taken into account (to my knoweldge anyway). There is a reason we dont take the Bible for fact. And the reason that Catholics have rules that aren't in the bible is simple. Do you think the bible cover for every situation? or that it holds up well in modern day? No. So they pope throws out some new rules and whatnot. I do think the curch gets powerhungry enforcing some of them but like I said before, I dont agree with 100% of catholisim, I just htink they got it the most right.""Suicrat said:I disagree. We know for fact that the Bible was tampered with by various Popes, Saints and Priests, and that Catholicism abide by rules that aren't even in the Bible.""But Bible scholars and historians will tell you that segments of the Bible were omitted, and other segments were added, at the request of Political leaders. Does that not indicate that the Bible is a tool of political control?"The cannon of the bible differs from denomination to denomination, but If you take the catholic cannon, it hasnt changed since its creation.The catholic church (yes I always use catholics, not because I think they are 100% right, but I think they are the most right) has a direct line you can trace back to Jesus of successors that helps preserve the teachings and its reliabilities.OK, seriously Im going to bed now, I swear."
"^ Since when do people get to elect the Pope? I dont remember being asked to vote. I would have voted for Obama... or Chuck Norris. "He is elected by the other saints and arch bishops I believe. Not regular people.
It also seems that both Liquid and Slayer want me to focus on Jesus, and not God (which kind of goes against the spirit of this thread, but I'll indulge both of you temporarily.)
What did Jesus do?
Apparently, he performed miracles. He used his pull with the big guy upstairs to temporarily change the laws of physics around so that more people could be fed, and more people could be happy. What is the morality to be taken from these stories? That you can only do God's will by breaking the laws of reality? That seems like a pretty difficult thing to accomplish.
What was the other big thing Jesus did?
He died for our sins. He sacrificed himself so the rest of us could live. But how is that a big deal if the end of his life merely took him to the golden city and gave him a seat at the throne? Seems way better than living in the impoverished "Holy Land". Also, if death isn't really an end to anything why should this sacrifice be seen as a sacrifice when all he did was trade in the shitty world for the good world. Doesn't seem very sacrificial.
But what if it was a sacrifice. What if he did die (permanently) so that life on Earth should continue. What is the value in accepting a god who would kill his only son to keep his science experiment going? Doesn't that make God evil, and not a moral example to be looked up to?
I believe in God for the simple reason of miracles. Earth existing is a miracle. My cousin, who recently was in a horrible skateboarding accident, recovering is a miracle. Beauty is a miracle. You can't look up in the sky and say "this was created by an explosion". Earth is art, and I doubt science can draw.
(By the way, I'm Mormon. And we really aren't that bad.)
"I believe in God for the simple reason of miracles. Earth existing is a miracle. My cousin, who recently was in a horrible skateboarding accident, recovering is a miracle. Beauty is a miracle. You can't look up in the sky and say "this was created by an explosion". Earth is art, and I doubt science can draw.I'm sure you're not that bad. In fact you're probably a great person, however your Bible is so tampered and you have so many rules that are contradictory that it can hardly be considered a branch of Christianity.(By the way, I'm Mormon. And we really aren't that bad.)"
"Suicrat said:But at what point was it okay, or necessary to kill your fellow man? Was the world overpopulated when Cain slew Abel? Were the Philistines wiped off the face of the earth by David's kingdom because the kingdom of Israel was more important to God? Why was it more important to god? Was it because God only wanted people around who worshiped him? If so, how come he hasn't killed me yet, or the 4% of the North American population that doesn't believe in any god? Or the 40-50% of the world's population that has other conceptions of God?"But if God is eternal, wouldn't killing be wrong at every point in history?Or is the Bible a tool of social engineering, as I suggested before?"For God it is. But we do not live in the same plane as God. We exist in our own reality. If we all existed and understood things like God, then there would be no need for him and the world would be perfection. However we, like stated, do not live in the same reality as God, so we do not understand things like he does. Therefore he sends what he calls his rules and his laws whenever he sees fit. Whenever he finds it necessary. For example, incest at one point was not a sin because it was needed to grow human population. Since that was needed all consequences attached to it did not exist either. Once it became a rule that it was a sin was when it became the filth that it is considered today."
"I believe in God for the simple reason of miracles. Earth existing is a miracle. My cousin, who recently was in a horrible skateboarding accident, recovering is a miracle. Beauty is a miracle. You can't look up in the sky and say "this was created by an explosion". Earth is art, and I doubt science can draw.What's Photoshop?(By the way, I'm Mormon. And we really aren't that bad.)"
"c1337us said:I assumed as much or something similar."^ Since when do people get to elect the Pope? I dont remember being asked to vote. I would have voted for Obama... or Chuck Norris. "He is elected by the other saints and arch bishops I believe. Not regular people."
"Cloneslayer said:You can't say that the Bible covered every aspect of morality that exists. The Church delegates on what they think is best for the problems we face today that isn'y in the Bible. I do think that the Church oversteps its bounds in some cases and that they aren't right on every situation."LiquidPrince said:God does not come down anymore period. He has already given his rules and stated that Jesus was his last prophet, and thus what was written in the Bible are the only rules that a Christian needs to follow. I believe I remember that at one point women Catholics were not alowed to read the Bible. That was absurdity. ""Cloneslayer said:Half you talked to a catholic priest lately? Most of them are pretty humble people, and aside from some (rather most) of the middle-ages popes, popes are to. I mean look at John Paul II. No way he thought he was better than anyone, look at his origins, he was a humble as it gets. Yes the pope is elected by people, and the pope is a person, but thats the best we got to work with. Its not like God comes down to give us new rules every hundred years or so that help us live our lives in the modern day like the pope tries to do. Yes, there is some arrogant bitches out there, and some of them have been pope, but I believe in the past few popes and there ability to successfully guide the people who need help. ""LiquidPrince said:The Pope is a nobody however... No man is holier than another. One can try and live a good life, but you can never become holier then another person. Besides, the Pope is elected by a bunch of other people who think they are supremely holy so that makes him invalid automatically. It's not like he was chosen by God...I think Catholicism is the one that got it the most wrong aside from Mormons and stuff.""Cloneslayer said:"Suicrat said:
And when women couldn't read the Bible, they also couldn't own land, vote, ect... That was when women were not treated equal, so in that frame of mind, why would you let them read your holy book?
"LiquidPrince said:God put us on earth after we were corrupted by the seeds of sin. We have free will, and can choose to defy his rules. He saw that people had no guide so he gave his commandments. He saw that people had trouble asking for forgiveness, so he sent Jesus. Bad things are not caused by God, however he does not interfere with what we do. To believe God exists means that we believe that the Devil exists as well, and he is the one that causes all our temptations and causes us to give in to our sins. Unlike God, Lucifer is not a silent watcher. He tempts and so God has given us a way to "salvation.""Suicrat said:But at what point was it okay, or necessary to kill your fellow man? Was the world overpopulated when Cain slew Abel? Were the Philistines wiped off the face of the earth by David's kingdom because the kingdom of Israel was more important to God? Why was it more important to god? Was it because God only wanted people around who worshiped him? If so, how come he hasn't killed me yet, or the 4% of the North American population that doesn't believe in any god? Or the 40-50% of the world's population that has other conceptions of God?""But if God is eternal, wouldn't killing be wrong at every point in history?Or is the Bible a tool of social engineering, as I suggested before?"For God it is. But we do not live in the same plane as God. We exist in our own reality. If we all existed and understood things like God, then there would be no need for him and the world would be perfection. However we, like stated, do not live in the same reality as God, so we do not understand things like he does. Therefore he sends what he calls his rules and his laws whenever he sees fit. Whenever he finds it necessary. For example, incest at one point was not a sin because it was needed to grow human population. Since that was needed all consequences attached to it did not exist either. Once it became a rule that it was a sin was when it became the filth that it is considered today."
Also contrary to popular belief no where in the Bible does it say that you have to be a Christian to enter Heaven. There are those who were killed before they even had a choice and were intelligent enough to understand their path. You think they just go to hell? No. That is why judgment exists. Christians get a pass on judgment unless they have fallen (become an murderer or something), but just because you're not Christian doesn't mean automatic hell. You will get judged on judgment day.
"It also seems that both Liquid and Slayer want me to focus on Jesus, and not God (which kind of goes against the spirit of this thread, but I'll indulge both of you temporarily.)What did Jesus do?Apparently, he performed miracles. He used his pull with the big guy upstairs to temporarily change the laws of physics around so that more people could be fed, and more people could be happy. What is the morality to be taken from these stories? That you can only do God's will by breaking the laws of reality? That seems like a pretty difficult thing to accomplish.What was the other big thing Jesus did?He died for our sins. He sacrificed himself so the rest of us could live. But how is that a big deal if the end of his life merely took him to the golden city and gave him a seat at the throne? Seems way better than living in the impoverished "Holy Land". Also, if death isn't really an end to anything why should this sacrifice be seen as a sacrifice when all he did was trade in the shitty world for the good world. Doesn't seem very sacrificial.But what if it was a sacrifice. What if he did die (permanently) so that life on Earth should continue. What is the value in accepting a god who would kill his only son to keep his science experiment going? Doesn't that make God evil, and not a moral example to be looked up to?"A god, who didn't have to die, came and was torchered for the sake of humanity. He can't just not keep on existing because no one can, the soul is eternal. God sent his son, and Jesus accepted to die, he actually had a hard time accepting to die, like any other person would faced with death.
Despite whether you believed Jesus is god or not, he thought great things, that were very revolutionary for the time.
Alright, bed time for reals. I trust LiquidPrince wont steer you wrong anyway, and I seem to just get in the way. See you all tommarow.
How many religions do you even know well enough to keep proclaiming Catholics have it the most "right" ? What about all the other variations of Christianity? How about Orthodox Christians? Not to mention different religions altogether.
Suircat, you have it all wrong. Perhaps he believed there's a better life afterwards, but Jesus still suffered like a human, and questioned his faith like a human. For all intents and purposes, he was human, just with higher faith than most. So, yes, all that suffering, and the concept of approaching death, was a sacrifice. Asssuming any of this happened of course, heh.
"It also seems that both Liquid and Slayer want me to focus on Jesus, and not God (which kind of goes against the spirit of this thread, but I'll indulge both of you temporarily.)What did Jesus do?Apparently, he performed miracles. He used his pull with the big guy upstairs to temporarily change the laws of physics around so that more people could be fed, and more people could be happy. What is the morality to be taken from these stories? That you can only do God's will by breaking the laws of reality? That seems like a pretty difficult thing to accomplish.What was the other big thing Jesus did?He died for our sins. He sacrificed himself so the rest of us could live. But how is that a big deal if the end of his life merely took him to the golden city and gave him a seat at the throne? Seems way better than living in the impoverished "Holy Land". Also, if death isn't really an end to anything why should this sacrifice be seen as a sacrifice when all he did was trade in the shitty world for the good world. Doesn't seem very sacrificial.But what if it was a sacrifice. What if he did die (permanently) so that life on Earth should continue. What is the value in accepting a god who would kill his only son to keep his science experiment going? Doesn't that make God evil, and not a moral example to be looked up to?"I told you that I am most familiar with Christianity and it is the basis of my beliefs. In Christianity Jesus = God.
"How many religions do you even know well enough to keep proclaiming Catholics have it the most "right" ? What about all the other variations of Christianity? How about Orthodox Christians? Not to mention different religions altogether."More than you would think a person would on the internet forums. I have explored many religions and avenues of the Christianity. I don't take the outcome of my eternal soul lightly.
"Al3xand3r said:So, how do you conclude Catholics have it the most "right" ? What do orthodoxs have so "wrong" then?"How many religions do you even know well enough to keep proclaiming Catholics have it the most "right" ? What about all the other variations of Christianity? How about Orthodox Christians? Not to mention different religions altogether."More than you would think a person would on the internet forums. I have explored many religions and avenues of the Christianity. I don't take the outcome of my eternal soul lightly."
"So, back to question one. What is the utility in believing the things you do, Liquid? How does it make your life easier, and if that's not what you want to get out of it, what is?"It helps me mold and shape how I act, and gives me a basis of what I think right and wrong is. It's also always nice to believe that there is living after life.
We have finally come to the difference between atheists and religious people. Both atheists and religious people want to do good things for their fellow human beings, and want to enjoy life. Some of us take comfort in thoughts about the afterlife, some of us would rather live this life as fully as possible, under the assumption that it might be the last thing we'll ever have.
In the end, the only difference is whether or not we'll be happy on our deathbeds. I won't and you will. That's about it. Or so it seems.
"We have finally come to the difference between atheists and religious people. Both atheists and religious people want to do good things for their fellow human beings, and want to enjoy life. Some of us take comfort in thoughts about the afterlife, some of us would rather live this life as fully as possible, under the assumption that it might be the last thing we'll ever have.You can do both.
"Red said:A paintbrush."I believe in God for the simple reason of miracles. Earth existing is a miracle. My cousin, who recently was in a horrible skateboarding accident, recovering is a miracle. Beauty is a miracle. You can't look up in the sky and say "this was created by an explosion". Earth is art, and I doubt science can draw.What's Photoshop?""
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