Do You Invest In An Improvement Plan/Roadmap Or Cut Bait With Redfall?

So, Redfall is a mess. This in and of itself is not an alien concept. We have seen games like Redfall or those that came out hot and later needed months of content updates before they became titles with stable online communities or ones with a large enough player base that you don't consider turning off the lights. Microsoft even has experience in such turnarounds with Rare, Ltd. experiencing one after launching Sea of Thieves. The issue, however, is that there wasn't exactly a crowded field Sea of Thieves needed to worry about competing against, whereas your shooty shoot gaming options these days, is a cavalcade of riches. So, as the title suggests, would you invest in "turnaround?"

Before anyone asks. I don'y think it's impossible. Crazier things have happened when it comes to games that required massive turnarounds to avert total and complete shutdowns. Final Fantasy XIV Online: A Realm Reborn is the obvious and best example, but the better path forward for Redfall, if there is one, is likely Anthem. Now, I know, the game was a running joke in the industry and its launch left an incredibly bad taste in most people's mouths, but EA still has that game's servers up and running after putting in a improvement plan and roadmap after its highly problematic launch, and that's for good reason. Anthem throughout 2022 averaged around 10-20,000 players a day. So, this can happen, but then we need to discuss what would be considered a "success" for Redfall in the first place. Is it concurrent users? It is total number of hours player per month? Is it number of downloads via Game Pass?

The issue is whether or not Arkane Studios, and more specifically Arkane Austin, want to invest the time to turn things around. Microsoft, at least in the handful of interviews where Phil Spencer is brutally honest about the current situation, sounds open to helping Arkane Austin. Also, credit to Phil Spencer for accepting complete and total responsibility.

I don't really think this is like Anthem, FF14, or No Man's Sky. The key difference here is that Redfall isn't a live service game. NMS isn't exactly that, but it's close enough. Redfall is meant to be a single player or co-op story-based game that you play and finish. So it may not be worth it, from a business perspective, to even bother fixing it that much.

I hope I'm wrong about that, though. I like Arkane. I actually like Redfall. I hope they fix the issues.

Personally, I'd like to see them fix it just out of personal curiosity as to what their vision for this game truly was. Realistically, they are going to release a few patches to fix the many bugs and then likely move on. I see this game going the same way Arkham Knights went, where the game seems completely abandoned, despite the developers promising to fix the game's issues like adding a 60fps mode.

What people dont get about No Man's Sky and Final Fantasy XIV, is that despite the games issues, a lot of people were still playing it, so developers saw a reason not to give up on it. The same with original Destiny before the Taken King expansion saved the game and the series. The same with Cyberpunk 2077, which rebounded after a series a patches and an animated series that made a lot of people interested in the lore and universe. People are playing Redfall for a couple of hours just to see how bad it is and laughing at it before uninstalling the game. And no animated series on Netflix will save it.

I'm gonna say something absolutely crazy here, but I don't think Redfall is actually as bad as it's been getting dragged. So I don't think it would take THAT much to make it more enjoyable, and Microsoft has so much under it's umbrella that I am curious if they try and outsource some of the things needed to fix it to other teams? Like if 343i could help fix the gunplay and Arkane just fixes the AI and puts in more enemies throughout the world, I think the game could be fun. And I get that that is an absurd suggestion and ask, and isn't really how this sort of stuff works. But if Microsoft really wanted/needed this to happen, it seems like something they could work out.

But then that goes back to is all of that even worth it? Or does Arkane just move onto the next immersive sim they know people want from them.

Not only are those other games live service or live-service-adjacent, they all kind of have a hook to them. A modern MMO that leverages the Final Fantasy IP! A procedurally generated universe! Jet....packs? Something that has unique appeal but needs better execution. What's the hook with Redfall? What's the thing that only Redfall is doing, but that's obscured by all of its misfires? Honest question, as my only exposure so far has been a few minutes over at Nextlander. Ultimately though, that's probably the wrong question -- the decision to pour more resources into it has little to do with the game and more to do with where the lines intersect on the spreadsheet, combined with whatever market research has to say about whether or not the game-buying public tends to hold a grudge on the kind of timeline that would impact the next game with the Arkane name on it.

Redfall looks like a game that drastically shifted focus during development.

The environments are empty for large stretches with nothing in them, fixing this would be like making a new game it just not feasible.

I'd be more worried about the poor controls and AI thats plagued every Arkane title, how is this still a problem for them.

I think they'll patch up performace bug fix then move on.

The greater concern would be Bethesda has a few studio's that produce games with constantly sketchy performance and commercial bombs.

Arkane, Tango and to a lesser degree MachineGames all their titles are commercial failures, I don't see how simply putting them on game pass changes things much.

Personally, I uninstalled it after hearing they planned on releasing content patches. I don’t think it’s worth any time investment in its current state, so when they plaster my home screen with “New Fang Update out now!!!” in 6 months, I’ll give it another shot. If enough people have the same reaction, I wonder if they’ll look at daily player counts being super low and pull the plug. Guess it’s the risk you run when you announce something like this.

I truly don’t know what they can do to make this game fun for me. My group of friends tried it together and said there’s stuff to like buried under the poor performance and terrible AI. I suppose that’s why I see the stray positive comment on the game, and I hope AA fixes the tech issues quickly so that kind of player can have a really good time soon.

Not only is it a bad "one of these" but i also really don't need one of these right now, i still haven't played Far Cry 5/6, Rage 2, Metro Exodus, Borderlands 3, Dying Light 2, there's a new Stalker incoming, if i mute the dialogue i could play Atomic Heart, i could play Dead Island 2, i should probably play Outriders before they inevitably take it offline, Redfall isn't even on the list.

The boring gameplay can be attributed to the developers not knowing what people want, but the technical side being a mess is a telltale sign that this game was sent out to die. Because it's on Game Pass they'll keep the servers up, there are always people who want to play boring games and as long as they subscribe to GP, Microsoft doesn't care if they play Redfall or Starfield. They'll put out a patch or two in the hopes of salvaging some goodwill but I wouldn't expect any significant fixes.

they did an AI overhaul on Deathloop despite that game getting glowing reviews at launch. I see no reason that they wouldn't drastically improve many of the problems present in this game, too.

@kcin: Not really the AI was dumb as rocks in Deathloop they had an update shortly after release to make them slightly less dumb, but still quite brain dead.

At this point I feel like they need to do it just for their reputation and Microsoft's reputation. Also, I think we're starting to reach the point where people are realizing that maybe we just overrated Arkane due to the cool levels Dishonored had.

@zombiepie I would define "success" for Redfall less as copies sold or concurrent users as much as managing to put out a version of the game that doesn't end up fundamentally damaging the Game Pass/Xbox brand.

Having said that, I think Microsoft is in a really tough spot and they're in a bind whether they choose to stick or twist. On the one hand, I'm tempted to say cut bait on it, because Redfall's flaws are so fundamental that it will never be particularly good, even if all the bugs and performance issues are ultimately ironed out. Investing more into it feels like it would just be a sunk cost at this point, particularly since the industry seems to have kind of settled on this game as being 2023s "point and laugh" title.

On the other hand, I'm just not sure that MS can do that. Game Pass is in dire need of some big tentpole games, and they invested so much marketing power behind Redfall that it would be a really bad look to just leave it out there in the state it's in. Redfall is in such a bad place and is getting piled on so much that it's actually kind of turning into an argument against Game Pass as a concept, which would be hugely damaging for MS right now.

It makes me wonder how many non-Game Pass copies they sold. If it wasn't that many, there's a potentially radical solution to the problem - you pull a FFXIV and basically redo the game entirely. I'm talking an almost ground up re-think of the game and its mechanics. However, you first refund the people who paid retail for the game. Then you also remove the game from Game Pass entirely while the redesign is going on so it isn't stinking up the service in the meantime. You then relaunch a better version of Redfall with a lot of fanfare at some point down the line.

Like I said, that's a super-radical and potentially impossible solution to the problem, but also the one that might end up having the most upside if they wanted to commit to it.

People who think Arkane is overrated really need to go back and play Dishonored and particularly Prey. Those games were, if anything, underrated. Arkane really knows what they're doing as long as they operate in their immersive-sim lane. It's only been the last few releases that things have gone off the rails.

I don't think it's a good use of Arkane's time to fix it up. The damage is done and nothing about RedFall screams 'tune in for further updates' like a game as a service.

Let it go. It would be nice for people who kind of enjoy the game or already bought it to have some basic QoL features added, bugs squashed and performance/visuals -slightly- better. Outside of that, cut your losses and move on, the game is a boring a turd.

I can see the argument for really fixing the game or reworking large parts of it to save face, but I don't know if a little egg on microsoft's face being wiped off is worth another 1+ year of real large scale development time and cost, IF anyone knows how to actually save it. The basic design of the game seems completely inept and misunderstanding of what to do and what it wants to become, so I don't know if it is salvageable by the same people that made it.

Eh, I think that most of the people who would say "Arkane is overrated" are just using a kneejerk turn of phrase to describe their lack of interest in what makes people fans of Arkane games. There will always be people like myself, or as Jeff G. recently described himself on his podcast, that just don't play games the way Arkane wants you to play games.

I bought the collection that's on PSN about a year ago because I was beginning to think I'd be spending less time out at bars and focusing more on video games for my leisure time, and I'd always loved how people like Patrick described their systems and whatnot. But then I played about 2/3s of Dishonored and it turned out all I was capable of doing was "shooty shoot 'til the bad guy's dead". I'd bought Deathloop at the same time due to all the pre-release hype and...I played that game like Call of Duty, too.

It's also why I can't figure out how to get excited about Tears of the Kingdom, or Minecraft, or whatever. Tell me how to have fun because I'm not gonna figure it out for myself.

Gonna invest (in a way). Tried Destiny, tried The Division, and even tried Outriders (kind of different but still) I think I'm invested because I don't really know how or if the devs even want to keep supporting this game. I'm still enjoying a lot of just roaming around the world. It honestly feels like a game that was kind of inspired by BotW at first then got course corrected when someone said, "hey alright let's make this The Division". It's such an odd and rough mix that it makes me want to keep playing it.

I haven't played a game in a long while where so much of the world, in terms of just pick-ups and even the main plot, feels like the devs are kind of ashamed of what they had to put out? There was something in Redfall it wanted to be but got lost on its way to release and while that makes it a really rough game at release, I still really like it and can see some potential, I think it makes the game just a really interesting case study about bigger game development right now.

I have completed Redfall 1.5 times in about 15 hours of gameplay. I feel like I'm in a better position to answer this question than many in that sense and I can't honestly say I know either way.

Is Redfall salvageable? Yes, I don't think any game is truly unredeemable.

Will Redfall be salvaged? I don't think so.

The design with Redfall is so mismatch in incomplete that fixes aren't the only thing needed for each of the various systems in play, they need to be removed or rebuilt entirely. I'm going to write a spoiler laden novel here that goes over this stuff.

THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS MAJOR MECHANICAL AND MINOR STORY SPOILERS.

Anything I truly consider a spoiler will be tagged but don't get nitpicky on me, I warned you.

Skill Trees: The skill tree isn't just boring, it's illogical and demonstrates the lack of thought. Each hero class has 2 Abilities and an Ultimate with a list of minor perks (Increase the radius, recharge time, damage, fire rate, healing potency, etc of said skill) and stronger perks require the previous perks in the tree to unlock. The final Node of the left most skill tree has a marker that says "Requires Level 10" because, like a lot of these games, they don't want you dumping all your points in one place. Except, there are 6 Required skills before that skill in the tree, 3 that cost one skill point and 3 that cost two skill points. As a result, you have to be at a minimum level 14 to have enough skill points to unlock said skill. They added a requirement that can never possibly trigger because you will never ever be under level 10 and have enough points to buy this skill. Why even add the code/UI to signify it? Because you saw it in other games and thought you should do it without any consideration as to why.

Open World Events: There are essentially 3 kinds of open world content: Nests, Safe Houses, and hidden Side Quests. Nests are a neat concept with a lack of execution. The speedy dive into a procedurally generated otherworld base is entertaining the first time through as you investigate all the nooks and crannies and learn how it works. Once you learn, however, that it is simply two optional fights (sneak by or shoot them, its not a big deal combat isn't hard) followed by a third fight that unlocks your prize. Your prize is one good piece of loot from the boss heart then a bunch of small loots from rooms you need to mad dash and grab before the room collapses. Except, there is no penalty for being there when the room collapses (they make it seem like there is) so just grab as much as you can. If you care, the loot is probably bad anyway. Safe Houses are always exactly the same, one Side Quest (Kill a tree, get some supplies, retrieve a thing) that aren't only boring but repeat two or even three times over the less than 20 safe houses. There really just aren't enough of these to justify repetition and yet, here we are. After completing the side quest you earn a Underboss Skull that is essentially a key. 3 of these skulls are required to fight the boss of whatever area you are in and progress to the next game section. However, these bosses are just named versions of the existing "Special Vampires" with no special traits or skills whatsoever. Every single one died to the same UV Freeze+Stake Gun two-hit combo. Yes, I killed EVERY single boss in the game with 2 hits, except for the major world bosses which don't freeze.

Which leads to the most disappointing of all, hidden Side Quests. I'm not talking about you saw an ! above an NPC's head and he asked you to bury his dads pocket watch (yes, thats a real quest). Im talking about the handful (less than 10 for sure) quests I found out in the open world either on collectibles or hidden in caves. The first area has a hidden cave under the first crash site full of deadly gas and vampires with a secret altar that requires one of the Skulls I just mentioned to activate. Spending a Skull means you'll need to complete another Safe House quest line in order to replace the Skull and fight the final boss later. So of course, something cool must happen when you spend this Skull right?!?! Every other time you spend Skulls bosses come out so its gotta be neat! Nope, when you spend the Skull there is no effect, no screen shake, no noise, no boss, no enemy, no nothing. A small popup appears that says you unlocked a cosmetic outfit. Fucking weeeeeeeee!

Loot: The loot is by far the most obvious example where the team just clearly didn't understand the why/how of loot games and simply shoehorned it into a game they already made that doesn't have loot. I can literally name every single gun in the game because they're so limited I have them memorized.

Pistol: Revolver, Semi-Auto, Full-Auto Electric Damage

Shotgun: Double Barrel, Pump, Semi-Auto

Assault Rifle: Semi-Auto, Burst-Fire, Full-Auto

Sniper Rifle: Slower one, Faster one

Flare Gun: Single Barrel, Double Barrel

UV Gun: UV Gun (There's only one)

Stake Launcher: There are at least 2 but I can't tell what's different about them

I'm not listing classes of weapon, there is one named gun for each "type" listed. EVERY single UV Gun is called a Medusa. Every single heavy sniper is called Efreet. There are only 16 or so guns in the ENTIRE GAME. The colors and levels just change as you acquire new ones, constantly forcing you to replace your existing gun with a higher level version of the same exact gun to stay caught up with the enemies who level up whenever you do.

Exotic/Legendary variants of each of these types exist as well, but they too are always exactly the same. "Perfectly Normal" is what they call the Legendary Full-Auto Assault Rifle. It has 3 fixed perks that are the same on every "Perfectly Normal" you find, other than the base damage which is set by the level of the gun.

I killed a Rook (lame special enemy that dies in 2 hits like every boss in the game) which is a guaranteed Legendary Drop and got the "Perfectly Normal" at level 8. When I hit level 11ish, the gun was beginning to be too weak to use. So I ran another Rook and low and behold he happened to drop the same "Perfectly Normal" this time at level 12 so I could use it again. And this is how finding any weapon you like works. Enjoy it for 2-3 levels until you have to hope you can RNG your way into a carbon copy of the exact same gun at your new level so it does appropriate damage. Don't like the perks on "Perfectly Normal"? Well that's the exotic full-auto assault rifle. That is it. If you don't like it you aren't using Full-Auto assault rifles, end discussion.

Amount of content: I did around 80% of the first zone and 95% of the second zone, I did every single main quest only missed a couple side quests in the first zone and one side quest in the second zone. I completed the entire game in under 11 hours at level 20. You would need well over 50 to complete the skill tree, there isn't even enough content to get you through half the skill tree it's paced so poorly. Beating the game unlocks a final difficulty option that simply makes enemies do more damage. Play it again I guess.

Hang on, did Anthem become great while I wasn't looking? Or is it more like "limping along doing fine"?

Meanwhile Saints Row gets a content roadmap. I don't think that'll do it.

Cut bait would always be my answer. But then again you are asking someone who had requested refunds for both Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Cyberpunk 2077 on Steam here. No patience for their screw-up in the polygonal extravaganza side of things at all.

@zombiepie: I think they should cut bait. I think about Destiny. I was not interested in Destiny, then that beta dropped. I went from not interested to pre-ordering it. I played through the whole thing in single player and had fun, until it was over and then I was disappointed, because it felt like there should have been more. The core mechanics in it were there and pretty great. Peter Dinklage's performance didn't bother me at all. The foundation was pretty solid and then Bungie invested into it and made it pretty dang good. Redfall does not have that solid foundation.