Anyone else really dislike pretty much every quote/story from the audio recorders you can find?

The delivery is a bit forced sometimes but the content is perfect in this context. Any reference to anything Godlike reads more as one's inner consciousness, ie The Witness.

Eh, keep in mind those very tiny recorders require you to keep your eyes peeled to find them and are entirely optional.

They aren't the main focus so I don't see the reason for strong reactions towards them. You can dislike them(and thus not listen to them) but I don't see how someone can be all that annoyed by them.

The only strong reactions to the recorders I've seen are negative ones, not positive ones. Me? I like em. They're cool. Break the pace a little bit. But I recognize they are not nearly the focus, pretty much hidden, and very small. The game doesn't even fully need me to find them. I haven't seen stronger positive reactions than that, but I've seen people be very vocal about how much they dislike them. *shrug*

They seem tied to playing the game, tbh.

The audio logs and 'secret' videos are comparing science and philosophy, the extremes of both and everything in between. The prickles and the goos. The panels and environmental puzzles seem to represent the sides of that spectrum. I have to assume, in these types of games' fashion, that finding all environmental puzzles will reveal the 'true' ending. Or maybe it reveals nothing, as that would be more fitting to the theme if I have it correct.

I haven't finished it, or seen the ending, so it's just the impression I get so far.

I view the audio and other logs as a sort of lens to view the game through. In a game tied so closely to perspective and a visual connection to understanding the world, I find the idea that these extra bits of information poke at the concepts that you're beginning to develop in the world of The Witness. I don't feel like there's anything particularly intrusive about them or that there's a particular philosophical idea that is trying to be shoehorned in here. The world of The Witness is so tightly connected to itself that I tend to see it as self-realized and self-contained just like the island in The Witness, disconnected from everything else in the world but extremely interconnected with itself. It's just another piece of knowledge to gain perspective, but you get to decide if it means anything to you.

People are saying that they are unrelated to the gameplay but they are almost always related. There's one about adventuring, one about isolation, there's one in a wrecked boat that is literally about wrecked boats.

Honestly, I never know how people are discerning between pretentiousness and philosophy. It's almost as if some folks think all philosophical rumination is pretentious, which is a really anti-intellectual stance to take.If you find them jarring and taking you out of the setting, that's fine, but the quotes aren't platitudes dressed up as profound, which is where I draw the line at pretentiousness.

Funnily enough, that quote is actually in the game. Maybe as a way to provide context to other God related quotes in the game.

Seems to me that (from the few I have found) the quotes relate in some form or other to "perception". Be that literally - one talking about seeing the earth from space and how it affects your perception of the world

Or figuratively - the whole science vs religion stuff.

For me, that ties VERY much into the game, which (beneath the surface of panel puzzles) is all about your perception of the surroundings

But yeah... The game does hammer that home in a very "hey aren't I deep" way.

Hm. That's how some people received Braid too if I recall correctly. Or should I say perceived.

°ヮ°

Maybe I haven't found the right logs, or maybe I'm too susceptible to knee-jerk reactions, but everything I've found (especially the video clips I've found) come off as a very heavy-handed message of "this is why science is great, and this is why any sort of faith is stupid/ridiculous." As a Catholic, I've found it extremely frustrating since I have never understood the idea of science vs. religion as if they are 1. directly comparable and 2. inherently opposed to one another. Of course, it's even more frustrating since all I'm trying to do is solve goofy maze puzzles and explore the world, and my reward is to have a who's who quote-off about circular logic and (to me) pseudo-psychological ramblings all pointing in the direction of "boy, religion sure is dumb and there's definitely no benefit in any of it unless the thing you believe in is that you don't believe in it." Compare this to Talos (as some already have) which instead explores the concepts of free will and existence in a way that at least feels human, giving the player the opportunity to answer its questions the way they see the world (I haven't finished it so maybe the whole thing gets turned on its head). The Witness feels like I'm being lectured.

The internet is already brutally unkind to people of faith (or maybe the concept?), so the things I've found in The Witness certainly haven't provided a unique voice to the argument. Rather, it's a more long-winded presentation of the same stuff I've heard ad nauseam. Then again, maybe the game is right and I'm a big, dumb idiot who's incapable of critical thinking because I didn't come to the same conclusion as some dude in 1906.

I can't stand them. It's navel gazing at its most pretentious.

The audio logs aren't so great, but I've enjoyed the videos I've found. They're a little silly at times, but I have been enjoying them.

Only four hours in so far, so I have only heard five or six of them. So far I have liked them all. But I am an atheist who feels religion does a lot more bad than it does good for the world, so I guess the subject of the logs speak to me in a way. I also really love what Braid did, so seems I am just attuned to liking the sort of stuff Jonathan Blow presents.

I like the audio logs so far, no matter if I agree or disagree with any of them. Either way, they are thought provoking. Most of the time when people actively choose to actively dislike quotes like these it seems that they don't want their beliefs questioned in any way. They are annoyed by different points of views. I love being questioned by people with different points of views because its an opportunity to expand my understanding of others' thoughts.

With that said, I also don't see how someone might just generally be annoyed with just their presence in the game because it's pretty easy to ignore them (from the point that I'm at, at least) and still have the amazing puzzle game.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but The Witness isn't a denouncement of religion. The Witness presents perspectives from the extremes of both science and religion and everywhere in between. Understandably, that will probably be missed because The Witness doesn't require you to seek out everything it presents. From my current comprehension, The Witness is about looking at things from different perspectives, which is tied to the very act of playing the game itself. I may not have enjoyed The Witness like Brad and Jeff, but it has certainly given me quite a bit to think about.

I don't find them particularly distracting or enlivening, personally. They just sort of lie there. I imagine there's a greater context that makes them fit, somehow - there are some that have been suggested here that seem compelling. But lacking that, I don't really care either way.

I do like the video stuff, though, or at least what I've found of it. Particularly once I figured out that there's a puzzle hidden in at least one of them.

I'm pretty certain that all of the audio logs and videos provide some commentary on in-game things rather than just being about metaphysics or game "story". Even something as obscure as the candle video has meaning, which is actually my favorite moment of the whole game.

Hint(spoils the ship):

I liked the one on the shipwreck.

So far I've disliked all of them. The voices they're read in get grating, especially on the longer ones. I'm sure there's a reason for them, maybe even if it's just to make me think there's a reason for them, but so far I kind of dislike them all.

I do wish though that you could go back and listen to previous ones if only to try put them into some sort of context with each other.

I'd like to ask people who are so put off by the audio logs in the game if each one contained an old standup comedy routine would it still bother them as much? --If you got Who's On First on one at the quarry, George Carlin talking about swear words in the keep and maybe a Marx Brothers scene in the video room?

I understand the complaint that the logs don't seem to add anything to the game, (that's debatable given the content of some of the later ones) but in some ways I don't see them as doing anything different than the sea shanties in AC: Black Flag and people loved those.

I'm still undecided on this. I haven't finished the game yet and have avoided spoilers, so I don't know if they play a bigger role in the game. If they don't play a role, then some of them are interesting while others are super boring.

Yeah, they aren't to my taste. I feel like I'm back in philosophy class all of a sudden.

This seems like a strange comparison. I suspect most people just want audio logs to add to the story/atmosphere of the game and be interesting to listen to. These don't really hit those targets for me.

I don't care for them. They to me just come across like someone took some college philosophy class and suddenly think they understand the whole universe, and cannot resist telling everyone about it. They just feel teen-philosophy-juvenile to me. As if they were the philosophical equivalent of some "edgy" teen writing "dark" stuff in their high school notebook that makes the girls like him because he is "dark and tormented" [or as it would be portrayed in a tv show/movie/ect]. I think as someone put it, it is just a bunch of silly navel gazing. Keep in mind this is from me only hearing a few before I got so motion sick constantly by the game that I had to steam refund it. Maybe they are more tolerable later on.

I suppose I'm trying to pinpoint which of the two is the bigger problem. Would comedy routines at least solve the second?

I'd at least propose that they do add to the atmosphere of the game (and they clearly add to the story if you find the right ones) but it just happens to be an addition to the atmosphere that, for whatever reason, a lot people seem to find disagreeable.

@alavapenguin: @jasonr86: Are there any philosophers you like that you don't consider to be navel gazing? Just curious.

Sure, I might find them interesting, but they'd totally undermine the atmosphere of the game, so I can't say that would be an improvement. I can definitely see how the audio logs as they are in the game could add to the atmosphere for some, but they kinda make me feel like I'm walking around some weird philosophy theme park.

The ones I agree with.

But honestly, there's a way to spout philosophy that doesn't make you sound pretentious. Being more laconic and direct helps. All the quotes and videos of this game seem to use 100 words to make a point where 10 words would suffice. Also philosophy that is less judgmental helps too. These quotes seem both mean-spirited, as if opposing philosophies are held by ignorant people that just don't get it, and as if they are being dumbed down for the audience. It all just made me feel gross.

@jasonr86: Some of the videos are the worst for this. I agree with the rest of your post, some of them are super judgemental, although there's one I found that at least seems to address that late in the game.

I created an account just to comment on this.

I found almost every audio clip valuable and enjoyable. And they can be with a dose of consideration. I see a lot of comments about pretension and obvious prejudice against/for certain categories of world ideas. In full, this is a philosophical journey, and that entails that the player be immersed in a world of thought, and to not be limited to specific ideologies or fields of inquiry. No, no true scientist is without philosophical ideas (arguably no scientific innovation would happen without so), nor are zen or religion excluded from consideration in inquiry of our understanding of our own context. It is important we remember these things, but also to not give any absolute credit. This does not mean "god exists", nor does it mean "science is not infallible". This means the exploration and consideration of a world of ideas has lead to new paths of human understanding. Concepts in Bhuddism, Jesuit Universities, physics labs, and philosophy are intertwined and are consistently informing each other.

Lastly, the videos in the theater are of multiple purpose. Some are to example redundancy, patience, intense existentialism, art, and skepticism. To needlessly reduce them to "Jonathan Blow's favorite film makers" is to ignore the educational value. Consider the intellectual value, and you will find it. This whole damn game was an intensely intellectual and introspective journey that we rarely get to see in games, let alone in media! I'm not trying to be biased here, but I am trying to defend what I find to be an underrated experience mistaken as otherwise.

i feel i have to restart this game at this point. it made me feel quite stupid early on and i should have tried to power through it but instead i put it down. shame cause i honestly feel it does what its trying to do in an excellent way. felt like i was doing it a disservice.

if i remember correctly i got pretty stuck around where they started putting in tetris style puzzles, where i was 100% sure i had the solution but the game was all like, "naw"

@obbytheobserver said:

Welcome to Giant Bomb!

I disagree. I thought both audio and especially video logs were a jarring contrast to the flow of an otherwise meditative, occasionally incredibly clever, periodically infuriating (screw you glitchy puzzles!) puzzle game. Their presence was little more than a distraction from the core game play. If I wanted to see a Tarkovsky film, I would watch a bloody Tarkovsky film! Even though they are optional, I would have enjoyed the game a great deal more if they hadn't been there at all.

Not trying to be an ass on your first post, but perhaps you're the one that has mistaken it for being intellectual in the first place. Everything about those audio and video logs is bad. Just because a game poses a philosophy doesn't mean it's automatically 'educational' and offers 'intellectual value'. It doesn't offer anything of the sort. It's a personal view of his that I don't need to be forced on me in a game where it is completely out of place.

The fact you had to post that people should enjoy and be amazed by a person's own conceived notions is exactly why it is so pretentious.

@zevvion:

No, that is being an ass. You presume that I mistake something intellectual for not being intellectual. Why are they bad? I sense a prejudice here. Posing philosophical points CAN be educational, but that is up to you to decide. How do they not offer such an opportunity? Such opportunities are NOT forced upon you in the game. You decide to click on the logs. I mentioned before how they were not out of place. Philosophical thought is never out of place where one is figuring out where they are and how the puzzles work. It's meant to be an immersion into a variety of wonder.

I never claimed that YOU HAVE TO ENJOY THIS. I did claim that the logs were misrepresented and were not out of place, and that there seems to be a convicted bias among those that find them so. That isn't pretentious. Pretentious would mean that they have no clue what they are talking about. That sounds like you are out to get somebody.

These events are voluntary. You don't have to enjoy them. But they are intentionally placed there to add introspection and wonder to an already mysterious context.

@sinusoidal:

The idea to include both meditative experience and philosophical/scientific dialogue is even mentioned in the game. There is value to be had from considering both approaches to understanding, and these things often do innovate thought when used in tandem.

The fact your experience was hindered from a voluntary video was also optional. You get the chance to choose to not let that bother you. If there is any lesson from this game, it is that we sometimes need to accept things for what they are as bizarre as they seem, rather than impose our preference as we encounter them, if we wish to come to a better understanding. Perhaps the dialogue over the gameplay is meant to define it's own type of experience. I know we are used to these things in different contexts. Who are we to say these things are to be so differing and jarring?

@obbytheobserver: They are completely out of place. They do nothing that reinforces what you are required to do in the game, what the gameplay revolves around or the narrative it tries to portray. It is very much breaking any universal goal that game has. Again, just because something claims or tries to be philosophical doesn't mean it holds educational value. If you want a more direct answer to that: none of the recordings give you any information you did not already posses, and some of them blatantly take a direct stance on certain political topics that can't be called anything other than a person's opinion, which is then being tried to pass off as some sort of lost superior knowledge.

I can see why you would like it, because its manner of reason is similar to yours. 'If you don't think this is the way things work, you're just mistaken'. I'm not mistaken in anything. You clearly like it, but don't tell me if I don't I'm just mistaken and can't comprehend what the game audio recordings are telling me; which is what I meant when I said you mistook it's intellectual value.

The space one just droned on and on. Was super surprised that even exiting the game and reloading didn't stop them.

@zevvion:

1) The gameplay revolves around thinking in new ways, seeing patterns in nature, drifting around this island without meaning. The dialogue is a metaphor for human context. We drift around nature, and when we go to make meaning if it, we use patterns and dialogue. It is appropriate. Even if it wasn't, what you see as unfitting is another analogy for things we deem unfitting in life, yet, they are there.

2) What is educational to you then? Can we not consider experiences as educational? I will have to blatantly disagree with you here, as this can be taken as an educational opportunity, and is even intended to be so.

3) What is philosophical then? Intellectual? Does the content not address questions of inquiry and wonder?

4) The content doesn't provide any information you did not already possess? You're telling me you had all of this dialogue already in mind? Every bit of it?

5) Can you provide an example of said opinions? Even if they are opinions, how does that disqualify from intellectual discourse? Aren't opinions also important/inquiring? Why can't the opinions be under scrutiny by the devs as well? Maybe they are not meant to be taken as absolute, but to provoke thought and debate.

6) That's also not a time all what I mean by mistaken. I claim that the game is being misrepresented as I mentioned before, which is a mistake. No claims in the game or by me are meant to be absolute, but to put forth logic that, when considered, lead to bias breaking thinking. The game is different, provokes thought, and wants you to be uncomfortable at times. When peoples' expectations are ruined, that shouldn't lead to a meltdown, that should lead to reconsideration.

7) As stated before, I'm not asking people to like this. I'm asking people to set aside prejudices, and give the dialogue a chance and try to imagine it's unique context. I witness these comments as a potential blatant resistance via obstinance rather than from a place of logic. This is an issue with public acceptance off philosophy and science in general. What seems to be different and inaccessible to some becomes a target for words like "pretentious", and THAT is the mistake.

8) Let us try to avoid presumptions and ad hominems like your "you would like this" comment. These are unnecessary, irrelevant, and intentionally rude.

@rorie: That was by far the worst one for me. Even thinking about it makes my eyes roll back. I think I started walking down the mountain expecting it would end quickly and ended up in the swamp by the time it did.

@obbytheobserver said:

I'm the person who bought and played the game. I'm not sure who is more qualified to be jarred.

I found a couple of the video solutions before I found the video room. When I found it, I was super excited to punch in the solutions and see what was going on on the island. NOPE. Here's ten minutes of some smug old bat lecturing me on how to run my life. OH, another 20 minutes of hemming and hawing about philosophy and art. I didn't choose to be bothered. I was bothered. Their mere presence soured me on the entire game. I'm sorry if I "imposed my preference", but that's something I do when I'm playing a game or otherwise indulging in some form of entertainment. To do otherwise is to dismiss all critical thought.

Did anyone find any connective tissue between this stuff? It's been out for months and for a bit people seemed like they were waiting for someone to "crack the code" but I haven't heard since. Is it just a Thought A Day calendar blown apart across the island?

@hayt said:

I haven't looked too closely, but if there's any connection, I can't imagine it won't be vague and unsatisfying. The secret ending was a massive eye-roller.

@sinusoidal: Well... spoilers: there is the secret underground part with the subversive audio logs of the people debating which philosophical audio logs to put in the dream-VR land. I know Austin Walker feels all this was all way too little too late but I personally love that the games holds it all back unless you really work for it.

They're probably the most inessential thing in the game so it's hard to really care about them, but it is also hard for them to often not be a bit awkward. Even when you can be in the mood for them they can feel a bit much. That being said I found like...four or so.

@sinusoidal:

Not every single ounce of philosophy was meant to be perfect for everybody. Some of it was meant to be questionable. Instead of thinking "you are tellnot no me what to do", think "what sort of meaning are they getting at?". This feels like a common trend when people throw up their arms when encountered with unintuitive concepts. Consideration is key.

When I watched one of the videos, I said "I understand what you are saying, I disagree, but I appreciate what you are getting at, and that's fine." That didn't stop me from playing the game. I chose to not be bothered, and to consider that some of that dialogue was relevant to discovery/wonder.

@nietzschecookie: Sounds if not vague, at least unsatisfying. I might go back and try and see that. I doubt it though. Seems like Austin and I would agree on the game. I'd like to see what he had to say about it.

@obbytheobserver: You get a gold star? I don't think I didn't properly consider the content, I plain-and-simple did not enjoy the content. It distracted me from the content that I did enjoy. I realize "enjoyment" is not necessarily the be-all, end-all of entertainment, but in this case I found the majority of the game very enjoyable, and a minority annoying and distracting from that majority. To me, that is jarring.

P.S. Who are you to say that not every piece of philosophy was meant to be perfect for everybody? Are you Jonathan Blow? Sounds very much to me like you're "imposing your preference".

@sinusoidal:

Not at all. I am only trying to match that sentiment that it wasn't for you. It is clear even in society that philosophy is not very intuitive, and I wish it were so. Many people hate hearing opinions or ways of understanding the world. Perhaps that's okay, perhaps not.

I, for one, loved just about everything in The Witness. It might be my favorite game...ever? I don't know. But it's definitely my cup-of-tea. Having said that, I dug all of the intellectual ramblings strewn around the island. They were, at worst, flavoring for the mystery stew that the whole game was, inherently. But I can totally relate to someone who would rather eschew all that and just solve puzzles.

However, @sinusoidal, I don't think Jonathan Blow's intention was to make something that everyone agreed with, or even that everyone liked. He's said as much in many interviews and presentations. To vaguely summarize some of his ideas (or my interpretations of them, at least): other art media aren't made to please everybody, so why should games? I believe that he thinks doing that waters down what the artist/creator is saying with their work.

@obbytheobserver: You're reminding me of the game.. I don't hate hearing philosophical ideas. I don't hate hearing opinions that are not my own. I hated being subjected to some long-ass philosophy lectures from the 70s in the middle of what was otherwise an engaging puzzle game. Under different circumstances, I may have found those videos just as engaging.

@samaroo22: And that's fine. I enjoyed my time with The Witness enough whether or not that was J.Blow's intent. I do some game dev myself, and The Witness is a masterclass in puzzle and level design. I fully believe the game is worth experiencing. I also believe the experience could be better without some of the game's, err, frivolities.

@sinusoidal: For anyone that hasn't seen it, Austin Walker's own bazinga.zone had a good end of year piece on the ratio of pretentious philosophy to subversive endgame twist on said philosophy.

The Witness was my favorite game of last year, and has had a significant impact on me in ways I couldn't have predicted precisely because of the audio logs and videos, so my feelings on the value of those parts is heavily skewed, but I can understand why some might find their existence and implementation a hindrance. I do have to ask though, why not stop clicking on the audio logs after the first few? I don't intend for that to sound combative or anything, it's just that I know I do that when there are parts of games I realize I don't care about.

Since a lot of people asked whether there was any connective tissue between the audio, video and game elements I figured I should post this interpretation by Joel Goodwin that I found encapsulates a lot of what the game was trying to convey.

@nietzschecookie: I should add that Austin also wrote a more recent article for new.donk.city highlighting a really fantastic piece of video criticism (vidicism?) by Joel Goodman that got me thinking about The Witness again.