@berserker976: What is he talking about? What are his characteristics? Why does he need to talk so much? You didn't even respond to my points.

Oh really he gives a big ending speech to Raiden in 2 that's 100% a Kojima monologue through David Hayter and isn't even really taking place in the game world? Just like Naomi in 1?

Your "points" are moments where he says something? Okay... Venom talks to Ocelot, he talks to Miller, he talks to Huey, he talks to Code Talker, he talks in the tapes. Here you go:

They display just as much character. As in, very little. Snake has always been a very simple action hero character that is a stand in for the player and their perspective in a lot of ways, even in 1 where he has more dialogue.

Explain to me Solid Snake's character and personality without just saying events that happen to him please.

Also, Venom... isn't Solid Snake. He's a different character entirely and is very obviously more of a silent protagonist to fit the whole idea of him being the user avatar.

People bitched relentlessly about how hamfisted and talky everyone was in the old games. They changed it up and... people bitched.

Nah just going to have vocal haters, same as MGS4. I wouldn't mistake it for a wide perception.

@artisanbreads: Solid Snake? He was a reluctant tool of the government in MGS1, bitter at being pulled out of retirement. He's jaded, distant, and resents the fact that he's considered a hero after Metal Gear 2. He sees goodness in Meryl and argues that his life isn't something to be emulated or worshiped. Despite viewing himself as a hardened killer he still has goodness in him, and through the game he rejects who he is "suposed" to be - his fate, and learns to embrace life, and make his own way. Unlike Liquid, who remains chained to his fate til the bitter end. This is all expressed through the dialogue and characters of MGS1.

I can do the exact same thing with all the other games, trust me. I've spent waaaay too much time analyzing these games. MGSV has nothing close to this, and it's the simplest arc in the series.

@berserker976: remember when I said tell me about his character without just saying what happens to him? You just said what happened to him for almost all of that post, i.e. other forces acting on him. It's plot, not character. He has very little personality. Don't just give me a plot summary, define his character and personality.

The thing is, most characters in the series don't have all that much personality or well defined character. It is a series driven by plot, themes, action, and storytelling methods (might not be the best way to express what I mean on the last point, but basically twists like MGS2 and MGSV have).

In my opinion, the issue with V as far as how it tells its story and what's there is that there isn't enough silly, off the wall anecdotes or one off character interactions/dialogue type stuff. Like Big Boss talking about why EVA shoots her gun sideways in a Chinese special forces style in 3, SIGINT breaking down weapons, Snake hitting on women like a goof or smuggling cigarettes in his stomach. The Hamburger tapes were one of the only bits of this and I thought it could've used more (though the Hamburger tapes are truly fantastic). I would say the Paz part of this game also fits in that lane but it isn't all that successful and I personally think Paz is not really a compelling character. These types of moments I'm talking about don't even really define the characters' personality wise (in fact they usually don't even fit in the game, that's why they are so fun) but overall they just make the series have a really fun tone and increase the scope of what it covers.

Anyways, Kojima improved his story telling methods to me (I agree with you @xerseslives as far as how it fits with a change in storytelling and also in how it fits into the meta part of the plot) but I think he went a bit too far taking out those wacky side tracks that make MGS so fun. The other characters could've had those moments even if Venom did not.

I think people mistake those things that add fun and character to the game as adding personality to the characters maybe. Because Snake just doesn't have much of a personality at all. He is brave, sometimes merciful, and he sees some worth in life outside of fighting (even though we pretty much only ever see him fight). I would say he is brash in how he hits on women too in 1 but that didn't continue really in 2 or 4. That's about it. No smoking cigarettes is not a personality trait.

By the way, all that is fine with me too. I love the series even though it doesn't really have that kind of character depth. It does what it needs to do well and it has a fun, complex plot. I think V just trimmed out some of the fat in its story telling method. Venom talks in the tapes and he doesn't need to talk in game all that much. And yeah, there's a reason for how he is presented as well.

The whole second page of this thread is just people saying Kojima/MGS fans opinions are bias bullshit because we worship him or something. This has turned into nonsense.

@artisanbreads: I'm not sure if you played Peacewalker or not but Paz's tapes in Peacewalker are some of the best stuff in that game. I think any attachment to her only really works if you have it before going into Ground Zeroes. Which I guess is solid ground for arguing that that is a shitty prerequisite to have to enjoy the character in GZ/TPP. I also really liked the final scene with her in TPP. It was a fantastically emotional moment of Venom feeling the immeasurable guilt of not finding the second bomb.

@demoskinos: Yeah that's fair because I have only consumed Peace Walker via Youtube and not too many of the tapes regarding her. Maybe I should go back and check that out.

I guess I shouldn't say she is not compelling at all because I haven't seen all of that game or played it, which obviously makes a difference. I do think that story line in V is pretty cool considering the final twist (like there are certainly parts of Paz [bones and teeth] implanted into Venom and he sees her as a "phantom" of what occurred in GZ, giving more weight to that moment in TPP and yeah Venom's role in it as you say). I am sure with your perspective having played PW stuff like the tapes that you get as you complete her storyline would resonate more.

@artisanbreads: Fine, he projects an air of being bitter and closed off, partially due to committing patricide in MG2. He views himself as a killer, something he resents in himself, but something he has accepted (pre-MGS1). Despite being a tool of the government he has a desire to fight for what he believes in. He grows to care deeply about a woman, which prompts a change in him, and causes him to start diverging from his self-imposed fate. He has a deep respect and pity for soldiers, because he can empathize with their struggle. A speech by his best friend causes him to finally reject his role as a pawn and start doing what he personally feels is right.

There, that's all character stuff for Solid Snake in MGS1. There's more, but I think that's enough to prove that he is an actual, well-defined character, even just looking at the first MGS game. Now you do one for Venom Snake, I dare you.

@berserker976: Listen... you just keep mostly saying plot points as they relate to Snake. You are bringing up how he views or resents himself because of plot points in MG2. I'm talking about how he is as a person. He has a respect for fighting and what his role is, but he sure murders a lot of soldiers for a guy who has so much "respect and pity" for them. And he is the tool of others again and again, not really showing much individual knowledge or personal growth. Him responding to Meryl, him responding to the genetic cloning that occurred and his relationship to Big Boss and how he is handled in that role, him "starting to do what he personally feels right" aka just fighting the bad guys and letting Ocelot be his Colonel Cambell that tells him what his mission objectives are: that's plot, conflict, and relationships. I'm talking really what is this guy as an individual. Like I keep saying, don't talk about the plot.

The whole ending for his character in 4 is about him just doing what he is told to do, to the point where it kills him (or nearly does), and then he walks away to live. This was also the message in 1 but he didn't really learn it there (again... so what is his character? He pretty much goes against what his one real trait is there so he doesn't seem to have much of an individual will, does he?), diving back into things in 2 (which maybe he felt a duty to, whatever, the point remains) If there's anything to Solid Snake, it is that he is willing to walk away, finally, from the war at some point by the end of things and Big Boss says that at the end of 4 (paraphrasing it: you wouldn't have made the same mistakes in my position. I take from V that Big Boss is very much a war mongerer and will never walk away).

And you miss the point as far as Venom. I am not arguing Venom has more character than Solid Snake. I would say he does have less, but that's less than extremely little. The point is he has virtually the same character development and then that has a point in what the themes of the story of V are as well. The whole point is Venom is duped into thinking he is Big Boss, so he acts like Big Boss would. He is Big Boss for all purposes. You would just transcribe Big Boss' characteristics onto him. And Big Boss doesn't have much personality either. And in the end, Venom is Big Boss (Big Boss says they are one). So what does that say about the Snake role if any soldier can assume it?

Like I said, Kojima trimmed the fat in the storytelling in various ways, including the Snake character's dialogue. Less than a tiny fraction of character development that occurred for the Snake characters in the other games. If what we can say about Solid Snake is that he is brave and merciful, that is not much to say about a character, especially the hero of a story. That is the case in basically all heroic stories. And frankly what I propose above about him walking away from fighting as a characteristic is pretty thin because that really just works in relationship to how much the whole plot of the games is based on war and keeping a war going, how that is vital to the soldier having a purpose. Like I said, MGS is about plot and themes, not characters.

Also, just as an aside, most games don't have complex character development either. MGS is far from alone in this regard. I just can't see why people are trying to say it's there.

I've been avoiding the NeoGAF thread for this exact reason. I can only imagine it's a hundred times worse.

@artisanbreads: How can people think that Venom is in any way comparable to Solid Snake in terms of personality and development? He says like 5 lines over the course of the damn game.

From the time you start the OKB Zero mission, to after you defeat Sahelanthropus, he literally doesn't say a single word. That is absolutely unprecedented.

Thinking about it, i wouldn't doubt quiet was supposed to come back in part 2 or 3 of something but all that got cut cause konami don't give a fuck.

Has it? I don't think it's the majority but i don't read internet posts like i used to. And i agree infinite was an amazing game, the post game criticism of that shit was mind blowing to me. I need to go back and play it again some day still haven't beaten the dlc actually.

edit: Solid snake likes dog sledding, likes hitting on the ladies, believes love can bloom on the battlefield, believes fighting to the death doesn't effect a friendship in any meaningful way, believes friendship has nothing to do with sharing info about your personal life, has no more tears to shed, has no love for the government, fights because it's in his blood, doesn't believe hes a hero, believes there are no hero's in war, seems to love to be injected with needles by strangers, loves cigarettes.

Big Boss/naked snake: Doesn't like movies, doesn't like hitting on the ladies, believed in duty over love/friendship, has no love for the government, believes the ends justifies the means, unless it's cipher, hates cipher, loves Cigars (sorry my memory of 3 is fuzzy as i didn't love the game so much and didn't play peacewalker)

Venom Snake: ....He likes dogs...i think?

Somewhat off topic, but as much as I enjoyed the game, perhaps ironically, as I feel the Kojima/Konami team think that jumping into a more open world gameplay style would have the player, or me wanting to play the game for a long time, it actually doesn't. I finished the story, doing a bunch of side quests, and then once I unlocked basically all the cutscenes, I was done. I'd actually much rather go back to the older, cutscene filled MGS' and just play those through again and again, than to play more of this. I loved the game, but still, it ironically doesn't have replay value for me compared to the previous titles, in terms of being finished with it, and wanting to jump back in. I don't know how many hours I played, though I think it was around 80; that's a lot, but I don't feel like going back any time soon. I hadn't played the game in a couple weeks, and just about an hour ago I took the game off the PS4.

It's amusing just how many people think Quiet could come back after that exit. She sacrificed her lifefor Venom Snake. She wasn't going to show back up at Mother Base to play in the rain some more. It's the reviving Aeris thing all over again.

I wish they never showed that Episode 51 stuff because now people have these fantastical visions that half of the game's story and character stuff was cut, and it was all stuff that they would have liked.

I never found Quiet useful in any way so I only got to bond level 2 or so with her. Haven't even unlocked that mission yet.

I had no problem using D-Dog instead of her, but she was great. Especially for someone like me who wasn't super great at stealth. I gave her the tranq sniper and if I got spotted all I had to do was hide a bit and everyone would either be asleep or trying to shoot her.

BTW, I didn't like using her until I found out that you can go in and tell her what outpost to scout or what sniping position to take for an attack. At the start of every mission I would send her to scout the outpost I was going to. By the time I got there almost everything would be tagged already.