azuravian

""How can so many people have this problem with understanding logic.  Knowing that something will happen does not make it your fault when it does."

In this case it does, because god is omnipotent (he has the power to change that) and because he created every individual knowing everything they would do, so having an omnicient being makes it so there can be no free will because he knows the outcome of everything before the "choice" is made.

Also, free will is not that free when any choice other than "the right one" will land you an eternal stay in hell.
"

""I can't fully explain the human psyche and why we feel compassion and other emotions to different degrees, but God just gave us a mindset to help discern right from wrong. You could compare it to a computer chip if that helps you visualize it better, although I don't think it's quite like that."

So is the free will like a fleshy ball that sort of floats around the brain somewhere?

"Now, if you accept that Christ died for your sins, then you probably won't go and blow up a bus. Christians generally don't want to disobey God, though we are tempted and will sometimes give in to the temptation. If we are legitimately sorry and sincerely ask for forgiveness, God will forgive you, though. "

I don't know, I've seen people that accept Christ died for their sins go ahead and do some pretty crazy shit...like starting wars in Iraq.  That's even worse than the bus thing.

"God placed the tree there because, once again, as I stated before, he gave us free will because he loved us and wanted us to genuinely love him back. It wouldn't be free will if we didn't have the ability to choose to disobey. The fruit was symbolic of Adam and Eve's decision to disobey. And yes, it's the reason someone these days would want to kill children. Yes, it sucks. Once again, life isn't fair."

So if I surround my cat with cat food, some of which is normal and some of which is covered in rat poison, and then say "it's your choice which of these you eat", WHILE KNOWING FULL WELL IT'S GOING TO EAT THE POISON AND DIE, it's because I love it?  I'd think a better gesture of love is to not give the rat poison option at all.

"

"Vaxadrin said:

""I'd say he could definitely foresee it, but again he wanted us to have free will.  Is a child really obedient if everything is good and right and there are no rules?"

So then it's his fault that everybody sins and gets sent to hell.  What an asshole.
"

Exactly, because omnicient means he is supposed to know everything independent of time. Every thought and every act from the beggining to the end of times.
"

"BECAUSE HE COULD LET IT NOT HAPPEN! O-M-N-I-P-O-T-E-N-T!
"

""I'd say he could definitely foresee it, but again he wanted us to have free will.  Is a child really obedient if everything is good and right and there are no rules?"

So then it's his fault that everybody sins and gets sent to hell.  What an asshole.
"

""Like I stated before, God did not create good & evil, rather he created a basis for morality which we all follow daily unless we have some sort of mental disorder where we feel it's ok to run around stabbing people. We cannot give the fault to God for evil existing. Adam and Eve chose a path of evil, so the fault is on mankind as a whole. It was our decision, so it's our responsibility. God was just nice enough to send Jesus to take the blame and punishment on his shoulders and sacrifice himself so that we could be forgiven."

But how does one go about "creating a basis for morality"?  Is it like a computer chip God installed in our brains that says "no, wrong.  yes, right."?  How does this explanation include those that lack the mental faculty to discern what's good or bad for society, or lack basic compassion & sympathy?

What you're saying implies that if I, right now, decided to go pipe bomb a school bus full of toddlers, the reason I did that is because Adam & Eve chose to ate an apple thousands of years ago.  However, if, after toddler detonation, I say "My bad, Jesus!  Forgive me." it's all good.

But then, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he put that apple there knowing Adam & Eve would eat it?  Could he not forsee that one particular event?
"

"Oh my god, the christians plague even videogame forums
"

""That would be another misunderstanding on my part.  I thought you were one of those "Jesus was just a good man" people, which is what my argument goes against.  I wasn't aware that you also didn't trust other historical documents (which is understandable) regarding Jesus (as a man) and the nature of his crimes and punishment."

Let me put it this way.  I have absolutely no way of proving anything that supposedly happened that I did not personally witness, did, in fact, happen.  Despite this, if, in fact, Jesus did exist, and the things he is documented as saying he did, in fact, say, then he is by my definition a "good man".  Mad props, JC.
"

"" So it was an argument that you don't have a response to.  It's so easy to back out when you're up against the wall."

What do you mean up against the wall?  I have no "This is the definitive proof I'm trying to make you guys see".  All I'm doing is asking questions.

You said "You have these 3 very specific choices I have outlined to choose from."  That implies there are no other possibilities than those three whatsoever, which I'd say, given how long ago it occurred, is a foolish assumption.  What if Jesus was a group of 6 wise sages that looked alike and took turns preaching?  What if there was no Jesus and the entire thing was horribly mistranslated or inaccurately recorded?  It's unfair to only give me 3 choices that you narrowly define and say I'm "backing out" when I don't select one.

I think I took a very good stance in saying I was not alive 2000 years ago so I'm not really the best person to make that decision of exactly what happened.

"azuravian is correct. sorry if there was a mistake."

That damn generic you, always getting in the way. :)
"

""It's more about learning from the mistakes and successes of others."

But what if I want to take part in some hot sodomy or eat a whole plate full of bacon by myself?  Learning from the "mistakes" of others in this case wouldn't help at all.

What I do, though, is when I see someone cut themselves with a steak knife and bleed uncontrollably...I don't do that.
"