@CJduke: Since you missed Cataclysm and WOTLK, I can see why you say that.

It doesn't hold your hand, but I have heard that epics are free in the looking for raid thing. Those epics aren't very good however. Raids are still hard, or were when I quit last summer anyway. Built in loot tables - great, quest tracker - great, 10 man raids - fuck yeah. The foremost two were done by addons about a couple of weeks after launch anyway and are merely tools of convience. 10 man raids was an absolutely fantastic addition. 40 man raids were complete retarded walkovers up to Naxx, where if you had 30 people and 10 people afk, you could do kind of a lot of content (not Cthuun, emps, etc ofc). With everything being built around this, raids were way easy and kinda sucked. That was fixed in BC of course, where I didn't raid any 25 mans though. WOTLK was all 10 man as well, and Cata as well. 10 man encounters were often harder because of the very low level of failure per player - one death or one major fuck up was usually the end of the encounter even in normal mode raids in Catas first tier. In WOTLK, not so much - raids were way easy up to ICC, which was later nerfed hard.

The lower difficulty of instances in WOTLK was a huge issue. Therefore all of that was fixed to Cataclysm, which included easily the hardest normals and heroics yet. Again, vanilla content wasn't very hard at all since nobody had a fucking clue, and if you did it was a walkover. BC was different of course, MGT HC for example, and quite a lot of Catas HCs was as hard as that or even harder (although less random and more reliant on player skill) then MGT HC - at launch.

I don't see the whole loot whore thing as a major part of the game, never had. If you liked being decked out in purple item color that the other guy didn't have because he wasn't in a raiding guild, I can see that. For people like me that care about performance, teamwork and overcoming encounters rather then bragging rights, it doesn't really mean much since I know I outdps him by 25% anyway.

@Ulain:

Don't I say : 'Yeah...' to most his points? SW:TOR's shortcomings, most of which are inevitably going to get fixed, just didn't encroach on my enjoyment much, that's all. I had like 300 hours of good fun on my Inquisitor and I'll log my bounty hunter every now and then 'til my 90 days of gametime run out. I had my fill of SW:TOR, but I found its offerings to be more than worthwhile, warts and all.

The duder comes off onesided. Willfully ignoring the unique strenghts of SW:TOR. I for one did care for the class story and 'roleplaying' my character. I cared for my companions. Shallow as the 'chose your own story' element might be. I thought the soft trinity concept it introduced is cool. Essentially having 2,5 parts of the holy trinity at my disposal at all times. I found the crafting mechanics to be the most elegant and least boring of any MMORPG I played. I love the warzones, especially 'The Pit', regardless of the common lag and delay. I enjoyed the endgame grind for a spell and what raiding content I did was enjoyable regardless of dumb loot distribution and bugs. SW:TOR is a great game, just not what World of Warcraft used to be - my gaming hobby. I never wanted it to be that though. I just wanted to play some SW:TOR and 300+ hours of enjoyment and passion I'd call a successful game anytime. I stand by that. And eventually, I might be back for seconds.

SW:TOR is a valid alternative to WoW and will become more so over time. That said, I do prefer Blizzard over Bioware when it comes down to it. Whatever floats your boat man. I just don't get the onesided and extremely negative views on the game and the angry entitled undertone. Some others on this thread literally spit on anyone who likes the game. Like that Neshka (whatever) fellow. Simply in bad taste this entire thread.

And yet I'm having the time of my life with it!  When will people learn that not everyone (should) think the same?

@Seppli: Shortcomings that might eventually get fixed? That's part of why people are getting sick of Blizzard. At least they have the excuse of seniority. Bioware may not be a new company, but it is new for the MMO market, and hoping things get better in the longrun is a very pathetic business strategy, that I'm not surprised to hear being defended on this board, as usual.

Not sure how the OP not listing what he did like about the game makes his arguments about what he found bad any less redeemable. People seem to want to easily forget the point that a majority of these are opinion, and yet continue to argue as if his experience with it was wrong.

Seriously, I think I'm done with this board. Biodrones can't handle anything bad being said about their precious little single-player subscription game.

@Ulain said:

@Seppli: Shortcomings that might eventually get fixed? That's part of why people are getting sick of Blizzard. At least they have the excuse of seniority. Bioware may not be a new company, but it is new for the MMO market, and hoping things get better in the longrun is a very pathetic business strategy, that I'm not surprised to hear being defended on this board, as usual.

Not sure how the OP not listing what he did like about the game makes his arguments about what he found bad any less redeemable. People seem to want to easily forget the point that a majority of these are opinion, and yet continue to argue as if his experience with it was wrong.

Seriously, I think I'm done with this board. Biodrones can't handle anything bad being said about their precious little single-player subscription game.

And you clearly can't handle anybody actually liking the game.. >.> Nobody is even being hostile here except you, and the other people telling us that the only possible way we could like the game is a list of stupid reasons. It couldn't possibly be we think the game is fun.

The only reason(s) I'm holding off on this game is because I'm too occupied with school and I'm not really that great at MMO's but I LOOOVE Star Wars.

Mass Effect 3 will drain any free time I have regardless.

@jakob187 said:

I'm sorry that you are having so many problems playing the game. There's no endgame? Yeah, they don't have any Operations in the game and haven't added more Op bosses since launch or anything. Are they particularly hard? Maybe not. I don't know. Haven't gotten there. However, what MMO has any endgame that people don't blaze through anymore? At least BioWare has already shown that they want to release content on a fairly consistent basis.

Moreover, they are working pretty damn hard to get bugs fixed and work on improving the game. That's more than anyone can say for quite a few MMOs. Rift is about the only one I can point at in recent memory that wasn't just broken as fuck on release, and even when it was, it was stable as hell...and TOR has been the same way.

I understand that some people have a grudge to pick with it because it's not what BioWare originally announced. However, the foundation is what you need to look at in the beginning, and their foundation is super solid. From there, they have to build on it. WoW had a solid foundation, and yet most of the things you've mentioned could've EASILY be said when it was released.

So...no thanks. I'm going to keep playing because I've enjoyed the hell out of it so far.

Couldn't agree more. Despite reading opinions - I don't get what everyone's problem with The Old Republic is. I'm having a lot of fun with it. It's like Blizzard is paying people to go around and break this game's reputation down....

@JoeMarsden said:

The real reasons for people not buying this game are as follows:

• They're not interested.
• They don't have the money (the game and/or subscription)

That's basically what it boils down to. Fuck you.

Pretty much comes down to this(for me at least), minus the fuck you, because I really don't hate the OP enough yet. Only reason I don't have it yet are these. It looks decent, but I've already got two MMO's I like and play quite often, that are both F2P. Why bother going to the cost of upgrading my pc, buying the game, and paying a subscription fee.. when I might not even play it that much?

@CL60: Alright, I think I have to be the one to ask this. Have you played WoW since Cata? Hell, I'm tired of WoW but my god is this game seven steps backwards. Yes, videogames are indeed fun. So, believe it or not, you may even enjoy playing them! That does not make SW: TOR any less of a piece of shit on the funometer. I feel like I'm yelling at people because I want them to have more fun, rather than waste their time on shallow experiences. Considering that you are sitting down wasting inconceivable amounts of time on a game that I don't think rewards the players enough. If you're a big SW fan then by all means play the game, but if not, then their are both WoW and many free to play MMOs that will probably give you the same, if not greater, amount of enjoyment if this sort of thing is what you're after.

Seriously, I think I'm done with this board. Biodrones can't handle anything bad being said about their precious little single-player subscription game.

@CaptainCody said:

I feel like I'm yelling at people because I want them to have more fun, rather than waste their time on shallow experiences. Considering that you are sitting down wasting inconceivable amounts of time on a game that I don't think rewards the players enough. If you're a big SW fan then by all means play the game, but if not, then their are both WoW and many free to play MMOs that will probably give you the same, if not greater, amount of enjoyment if this sort of thing is what you're after.

You can't be serious? Yelling at people because you want them to have more fun simply because you think other games are better. How about you just understand that people can like something more than you do, and get more enjoyment and "fun" out of it then you do? Why are you and so many others so upset that people like something that you don't find very fun?

Those of you hating on the game, AND the people who like it are acting ridiculous. Constantly making up excuses like. "Well you can only like this if you're a Biodrone, or a massive Star Wars fan, or a child, or even completley new to MMOs and don't know any better! Nobody else could possibly consider it fun when there are other MMOs in existence!"

Everybody who thinks it's fun and a good game is considered a "Biodrone", and it's stupid.

@Ulain said:

@Seppli: Shortcomings that might eventually get fixed? That's part of why people are getting sick of Blizzard. At least they have the excuse of seniority. Bioware may not be a new company, but it is new for the MMO market, and hoping things get better in the longrun is a very pathetic business strategy, that I'm not surprised to hear being defended on this board, as usual.

Not sure how the OP not listing what he did like about the game makes his arguments about what he found bad any less redeemable. People seem to want to easily forget the point that a majority of these are opinion, and yet continue to argue as if his experience with it was wrong.

Seriously, I think I'm done with this board. Biodrones can't handle anything bad being said about their precious little single-player subscription game.

For him (and you it seems) and others, SW:TOR's shortcomings seem to be enough to stop you from enjoying the game. Many don't feel the same way about these issues and can enjoy SW:TOR regardless. For me, having had like 300+ hours of good fun and tonnes of unique content left-over, SW:TOR is a great game and mostly successful in all it tries to do. It doesn't do enough to be my 'big next thing' when it comes to MMOs, but it certainly is a capable and valid WoW alternative and then some. Not that my WoW-template MMO fatigue does it any favors.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I just find some opinions onesided and ignorant of the SW:TORs strengths. The OP especially comes over like it's written by someone who 'wants the game to be bad and fail'. A flamebaitin' troll essentially.

@CL60 said:

@CaptainCody said:

I feel like I'm yelling at people because I want them to have more fun, rather than waste their time on shallow experiences. Considering that you are sitting down wasting inconceivable amounts of time on a game that I don't think rewards the players enough. If you're a big SW fan then by all means play the game, but if not, then their are both WoW and many free to play MMOs that will probably give you the same, if not greater, amount of enjoyment if this sort of thing is what you're after.

You can't be serious? Yelling at people because you want them to have more fun simply because you think other games are better. How about you just understand that people can like something more than you do, and get more enjoyment and "fun" out of it then you do? Why are you and so many others so upset that people like something that you don't find very fun?

Those of you hating on the game, AND the people who like it are acting ridiculous. Constantly making up excuses like. "Well you can only like this if you're a Biodrone, or a massive Star Wars fan, or a child, or even completley new to MMOs and don't know any better! Nobody else could possibly consider it fun when there are other MMOs in existence!"

Everybody who thinks it's fun and a good game is considered a "Biodrone", and it's stupid.

Not yelling necessarily, just lightening the mood if anything. I am quite serious, I don't think the concept of fun is subjective enough to regular dudes that their would be such dispersion amongst what MMO players define as an experience. Good enough for me if you guys enjoy the game and want to stick by it, just know that their are always options. Lastly, I know you spend most of your time in these hate threads defending your points and I think it's starting to get to you if you find it needed to rant about it when I think I made my point respectively. Do yourself a favor and try to stay away from these threads if anything before they destroy your mindset.

@Brodehouse said:

@Ulain said:

Seriously, I think I'm done with this board. Biodrones can't handle anything bad being said about their precious little single-player subscription game.

I just did a 4 player co-operative flashpoint with three people from Good Luck Have Bothans. Single player?

@CaptainCody:
You're upset that someone is having fun with something you don't find very fun. That's the problem. You don't actually care about how their experience affects them, you care that it does not match yours and thus causes cognitive dissonance that you then must try to rectify to create consonance. Since you can't increase your fun level, you seek to decrease theirs. It's not uncommon.

You're trying too hard to be pompous with pointless psychological phrasing, try making an actual point next time. Also, stop implying things, I am genuinely interested in people getting better experiences out of their videogames. For how much of a time sink this game is I think that both time and money can be better spent elsewhere in my opinion. Lastly, what cognitive dissonance? Take it easy with the social psychology course, you're overestimating how much interest this pertains to me beyond boredom.

this thread is still going?

I want it but i cant really afford anything right now, I'll probably get it a year from now and buy mass effect 3 and minecraft instead.

@Brodehouse said:

@CaptainCody: You appear to be under the impression I'm excoriating you. Or at least that's what the hostility implies. You are 'interested in people getting better experiences out of their video games'. Attempting to construe demanding others enjoy what you enjoy and dislike what you dislike to genuine empathy is not in any way believable. You want them to share your views, but they don't, it causes dissonance (which is an pretty common term that plenty of people use), and you feel you need to fix that. This isn't highfalutin stuff here, it's stuff that stoned idiots like Kevin Smith talk about. Sorry, but when you and I and anyone cares about what someone else enjoys, it's not out of the kindness of our hearts that we comment, it's because it conflicts with our feelings and thus must be rectified. Once again, this is not a fight, it doesn't require personal attacks. I'm just attempting to tell you why people on message boards argue about what other people find fun, why you 'spend time yelling at people'.

Implying that I'm being hostile while you practice your psychology exam on the forums is bias and irrelevant to the thread. Again, my point is that their are better MMOs out there as SW: TOR barely constitutes one, I'm honestly too tired to explain the simplicity of this. Lastly, you are yet again arguing that I care beyond this anymore than yet another thread and you are trying to insinuate I am anything like you are you know anything about me. If you want to complain about my alleged hostility then I will complain about your blatant projectionism.

Unlike you, from the kindness of my heart, I want people to have more fun playing videogames and I don't think this game will ever have the full potential of doing that. That does not mean this game is not fun, it means that people could get more enjoyment from other games, if you don't understand this then get out of this thread as that would make it abundantly apparent you have no MMO experience. Feel free to keep arguing cognitive dissonance on the forums to the extent of them becoming semantics, though.

What if I already bought it? :(

@EkajArmstro: then join the guild we have!

I knew I wasn't going to buy this game in 2009 when they started hinting on the SWTOR boards that it was gonna have a subscription and be just like WoW. I tried to tell them to follow GW's lead and make it f2p with the a box and micro-trans but noooo. Then stupid SeanDahlberg went all Nazi on everyone's asses and started banning all the interesting people and saying shit like "I'm writing down all the troublemaker's (read people who were interesting) names and they won't be getting into the beta." What a dumbass. Terrible community manager.

Fuck EA. I shed a tear as ME2 looks like the last Bioware game I'll ever buy.

@Rookwood: wait you thought telling them on the forums to go F2P was going to actually work?

@connerthekewlkid said:

@Rookwood: wait you thought telling them on the forums to go F2P was going to actually work?

This was 2008 right after they opened the forums. They were still very much in the "Hey guys give us your ideas for the game" mode. No one knew it was costing EA a quarter billion or anything like that at the time....

You're a little late with this post. :(

@CL60 said:

And you clearly can't handle anybody actually liking the game.. >.> Nobody is even being hostile here except you, and the other people telling us that the only possible way we could like the game is a list of stupid reasons. It couldn't possibly be we think the game is fun.

Lol, you've openly admitted you find people complaining about this game and BioWare to be fucking annoying and go on rants about how angry it makes you. If we're hostile, you're declaring war.

@Brodehouse said:

@Ulain said:

Seriously, I think I'm done with this board. Biodrones can't handle anything bad being said about their precious little single-player subscription game.

I just did a 4 player co-operative flashpoint with three people from Good Luck Have Bothans. Single player?

*Sigh* Why do people insist on giving ONE anecdote that happened 5 minutes ago when it's fucking obvious that isn't what is normally happening?

@Seppli said:

For him (and you it seems) and others, SW:TOR's shortcomings seem to be enough to stop you from enjoying the game. Many don't feel the same way about these issues and can enjoy SW:TOR regardless. For me, having had like 300+ hours of good fun and tonnes of unique content left-over, SW:TOR is a great game and mostly successful in all it tries to do. It doesn't do enough to be my 'big next thing' when it comes to MMOs, but it certainly is a capable and valid WoW alternative and then some. Not that my WoW-template MMO fatigue does it any favors.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I just find some opinions onesided and ignorant of the SW:TORs strengths. The OP especially comes over like it's written by someone who 'wants the game to be bad and fail'. A flamebaitin' troll essentially.

This is what I find this thread boils down to: if you feel you're getting trolled, why are you posting? If you think it's legit, why not let it be as well? Are you afraid if you read it, you will suddenly have doubts about playing, or people who can't form opinions and choices for themselves, will be brainwashed into playing something other than this game? And the only way to save them from not believing this thread is to post your own pointless stories about what you did?

I haven't been here very long, but I have gathered the idea that a good chunk of the posters here don't really care how others review games anyway. If they have an inkling to play them, they will, regardless of criticisms. If they feel they have similar opinions as Bongos, or feel that the flaws Neeshka pointed out wouldn't make this game worth it to pay $60.....why do you care so badly that they do guys?

@Ulain:

I am afraid of nothing. Just disgusted by the thinly veiled flamebaitin' and unreflected hatemongering. Voicing my opinion is the very definition of what I'm supposed to do on a forum. If I have something to say, I say it.

I don't get your feverent support for the hatin' going on in this thread. I found nothing in SW:TOR to warrant this level of pure negativity. It seems ridiculous to me. Just delivering a counter perspective. Any why shouldn't I?

I regret the lifetime subscription for STO less than I regret the game + timecard for TOR.

I agree with the optimisation critique. The game runs hotter and slower than Skyrim on my system, alot of frame drops and hitching.
 
Can't really see why, honestly.

@Ulain: Not what's normally happening? After I ran one with the Bothans, I was playing my smuggler and pugged like three heroics (quests that require 2 or 4 players).

There's enough content in the game to only play single player. There's enough content to only play multiplayer.

Also, regarding your post to Seppli; it's ridiculous to assume that only people who dislike the game have the proper motivation for making posts on a discussion board. Especially when those who do like the game are being called 'casuals, newbies or retards' as several posters have decreed. If there was a thread called "Why SWTOR is great and why you should play it", do you think those who dislike the game would just ignore it, or do you think they'll storm the thread and start throwing out personal attacks?

@ModerateViolence said:

At last the unbiased and reasonable MMO forum discussion I've been looking for.

GiantUnbiased.com

@Seppli said:

@Ulain:

I am afraid of nothing. Just disgusted by the thinly veiled flamebaitin' and unreflected hatemongering. Voicing my opinion is the very definition of what I'm supposed to do on a forum. If I have something to say, I say it.

I don't get your feverent support for the hatin' going on in this thread. I found nothing in SW:TOR to warrant this level of pure negativity. It seems ridiculous to me. Just delivering a counter perspective. Any why shouldn't I?

It's not a support for hatred; it's a support for the opinion, which isn't even hatred. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, yours and others were expressed, but I really only see negativity coming from the defenders.

@Brodehouse said:

There's enough content in the game to only play single player. There's enough content to only play multiplayer.Also, regarding your post to Seppli; it's ridiculous to assume that only people who dislike the game have the proper motivation for making posts on a discussion board. Especially when those who do like the game are being called 'casuals, newbies or retards' as several posters have decreed.

I can gladly agree that no one deserves to be called a retard for liking this game. I REALLY did want to like it. It's a Star Wars MMO, and I never played Galaxies. I don't agree with those posters that say you're wrong for liking it; what I'm saying is you shouldn't be calling the OP wrong for *not* liking it.

If there was a thread called "Why SWTOR is great and why you should play it", do you think those who dislike the game would just ignore it, or do you think they'll storm the thread and start throwing out personal attacks?

Only one way to find out, make the thread :P Honestly though, I don't think you'd have the disagreements you have in this thread. Outright attacking a "positive" thread like that would most likely be considered trolling; someone venting their gripes with the game wouldn't really be looking for counter-arguments, especially in the style he used, just like the person making the positive thread probably wouldn't want to hear those same criticisms.

TL;DR not sure what we're still arguing about anymore lol

@Ulain:

I am afraid of nothing. Just disgusted by the thinly veiled flamebaitin' and unreflected hatemongering. Voicing my opinion is the very definition of what I'm supposed to do on a forum. If I have something to say, I say it.

I don't get your feverent support for the hatin' going on in this thread. I found nothing in SW:TOR to warrant this level of pure negativity. It seems ridiculous to me. Just delivering a counter perspective. Any why shouldn't I?

Just the complaints of a person too poor to own a good PC to run this game and too spoiled by WOW to realize that there are not many other good MMOs out there that people would even be willing to pay for and that being called a WoW clone is not a bad thing though terribly stupid thing to say. Let's just go back to what we realize was a dumb thing to do and call Battlefield and COD Doom clones. Man, they should try a different perspective so they dont seem so much like Doom, right guys?

As though the rampant gay sex and the fact that Bioware are just gay activists wasn't enough...

@TheHBK said:

Just the complaints of a person too poor to own a good PC to run this game and too spoiled by WOW to realize that there are not many other good MMOs out there that people would even be willing to pay for and that being called a WoW clone is not a bad thing though terribly stupid thing to say. Let's just go back to what we realize was a dumb thing to do and call Battlefield and COD Doom clones. Man, they should try a different perspective so they dont seem so much like Doom, right guys?

Actually, you should be saying COD and BF are Wolfenstein 3D clones, but in your douche of a post about how someone should have as much disposable income as you, it must have slipped your mind. How is the basement/garage working out for you, anyway?

Oh wow, it is fun to make blind accusations about others! Perhaps next I will take a crack at your sexual orientation without knowing anything about you!

You are right though. This is a wow clone, but they tried not to be by removing, by today's standards, essential components, which is what the OP said 7 pages ago.

@Ulain: Look, we are all just having fun and if you want to attack homosexuals and transgender people, go ahead but that kind of stuff is not cool. I don't know where you get off thinking your hatred is welcome here.

Not cool man, not cool at all.

I'm having terrible performance issues in warzones/imp fleet/operations with Geforce 560 ti, Phenom II x4, and 8 gigs DDR3 RAM. I don't suggest anyone get this game, I'll be canceling my account when GW2 comes out because I need to keep playing this shitty game to keep my guild together for the time being.

@TheHBK: Hey, poor people have feelings too. Your hostility to them is unfounded, they have to make a living too, some of them don't even have computers to play shitty MMOs on.

And I said sexual orientation, not gay, I could totally make fun of you for being straight, you know.

And gay as a derogatory term is very necessary. I mean, how else can you describe a fanny pack?