Lord_Punch

@Brodehouse said:

This is the best analogy; the Catalyst and the Reapers are pruning the tallest leaves on a tree, for fear that if they reach a power line, a fire will catch that will burn down the entire tree. Isn't it better to prune the top 5% of the tree every 50,000 years than it is to risk the possibility of it all burning to the ground? Yes, he doesn't present proof, but I don't think he believes he has to. He's seen more than you can ever comprehend. He's known the names of more species and more civilizations than you could ever know. He's watched and made his judgements.
The only real baffling part is where he lets Shepard remake the galaxy in Shepard's image. If I was God I would thank Shepard for his-her efforts and then try again how I saw fit, not let some Canadian do it for me.
Remember, it's a machine, fueled only by endless amounts of time and soulless math. The one-in-a-million chance is a real possibility that must be considered for the Catalyst. It expects to 'live' for millions and millions of years, for time unending. The 0.0001% chance during any year that another more powerful AI is constructed that has no use for organic life (also spoke of regarding the geth) is a legitimate concern to a being that exists over millions of years. So it constructed a solution that prevented it from being possible, while maintaining a continuity of organic creatures in the galaxy. In a machine's mind, why would you ever choose 0.0001% over 0%? Because its nicer?

Here's the problem with your analogy: you will prune the tree because you can SEE the power line. You can surmise from the evidence before you that pruning the tree is necessary.

The Catalyst's Motive for Pruning Organics has no equivalent to the power line.

"He's seen more than you can ever comprehend He's known the names of more species and more civilizations than you could ever know. He's watched and made his judgements."

This is you adding your own fan fiction to the story. It does not exist within the Mass Effect lore. Therefore, it cannot be used as a defense.

@TBird13 said:

@Lord_Punch: To interject here, I think that you might be looking for evidence in the wrong place. The Reaper cycles have been going on for so long that whatever information or event that convinced the Catalyst that this was the right course of action would be way too ancient to be in any sort of Mass Effect lore. After all, the inhabitants of the game really only have information about the last cycle - that's why they originally thought the Protheans built the mass relays and such. So whatever happened that set this process in motion happened way too long ago for us to ever realistically learn about.

Also, I don't think the Catalyst can really be held responsible for its actions in the moral way you want it to. The game suggests that it's basically god of the Mass Effect universe. It would exist beyond any sort of ethical notions that lower beings would construct, the same way an amoeba's opinion of a human being doesn't really matter. (Come to think of it, I think Rorie covered a bit of this in the article he wrote for his tumblr on Mass Effect, player entitlement, and all that). I doubt it could feel pain, or even be destroyed, so I don't think any sort of punishment could ever be expected to come its way. Unless, of course, that's exactly what happens in the extended ending, in which case oops...

Anyways, there is certainly room for disagreement on the subject, and you are welcome to do so. Those are just my thoughts on the conversation between you and @golguin.

To your first point, if the storytellers are going to give us a preposterous reason for the Reaper cycle, then they need to be able to back it up. It's their responsibility as storytellers. Especially since the reason they gave makes no sense. If they're going to raise up the idea of "organics will always create synthetics which in turn will always rise up and kill their creators," then we need to be given examples of this. Because most of the lore that we've actually been given in the games speaks against this idea. If Liara can magically find the plans for the Crucible on Mars, why can't something be found in an old beacon or some other plot device that gives us this information? Why can't The Catalyst explain this, seeing as how it loves talking to Shepard? Why can't Shepard ask this, given Shep's history of always asking questions? There's several ways this information can be presented. That's part of storytelling. Coming up with ways to tell the story.

To your second point, ABSOLUTELY The Catalyst can be held accountable. Look at HAL in 2001. It killed the scientists on the ship and refused re-entry to Dave thinking it was for the good of the mission. There's no action showdown between the two of them, nor is HAL brought before any type of court. Dave just shuts HAL down. Because no matter how justified you feel in murdering people, murder is murder. And murder is wrong, no matter if you can comprehend that or not.

Also, the writers can still hold The Catalyst responsible, and not punish it in any way. Look at the movie Se7en. John Doe, the villain, wins in the end. But the movie still shows that John Doe was wrong in killing people. The storytellers hold him accountable and show that he was wrong, and they still let him win.

These are two non-traditional, and proper, ways of holding a villain accountable for their crimes within a story. Because no matter what The Catalyst is (God, Advanced AI, Douchebag VI, Wizard Behind A Curtain, Whatever), it is responsible for the genocide of millions of different species. And it did this based on absolutely NOTHING. It presents no proof, and neither do the storytellers. It NEEDED to be held accountable.

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.

Yeah but it's alluded to repeatedly. They never saying it quite like I said it granted, but they give you the general gist of it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they meant.

Give me examples from the games.

It's in the DLC through conversations with Javik. He wants all synthetics destroyed because during is own cycle, before their own reaper invasion, symbiotic synthetics were created that eventually tried to snuff them all out.

The idea is that the reapers come in and prevent these situations from ending in synthetics wiping out all life. If organics never got advanced enough to discover the citadel then they would pose no risk to the galaxy as a whole.

So, the justification for the inclusion of an ending in which the declaration that "all organics will eventually create synthetics that will eventually try to wipe out all organics" is made is only available via optional downloadable content?

I didn't play the Javik DLC, so answer this for me: what happened to the symbiotic synthetics?

The DLC was a big sticking point for a lot of people (myself included) because Javik provided a huge amount of context to the reapers and the story as a whole especially on Thessia. It should have been included in the game. What essentially happened is that the machines turned on their masters and the Prothean Empire fought them in the "Metacon War". Javik said they were turning the tide and then the Reapers showed up.

So, in an effort to save the Protheans from synthetics, the Reapers stopped the Protheans from defeating the symbiotic synthetics? Did I understand that correctly?

No. The Reapers weren't trying to save them. They were ending it all.

The Prothean Empire was made up of the true Protheans and the races they subjugated. Any race that didn't comply with their rule was destroyed. I don't know if its a coincidence that the Reapers came during their "Metacon War" and during the present time "Geth War" when organics created synthetics that could *possibly* destroy them, but the outcome of the war was never determined. All advanced races during that time fell under the Prothean banner so they were all eliminated.

I don't know if its ever stated if the Reaper cycle has a hard date or if the time of their arrival coincides with the rise of synthetics, which happens to be about 50,000 years. The question would be if the Reapers would still purge every 50,000 years if there was no synthetic threat present. If they still do it without synthetics present in that cycle then they have no justification. If their method is tried and true then it continues to make sense until the present cycle when it was no longer a viable option.

But I was initially looking for an example from Mass Effect lore that would support the Catalyst's theory that synthetics would, if given the chance, wipe out all organics.

In the Prothean example, they were turning the tide of the war. It wasn't a certainty that the synthetics would wipe them out. Therefore, the example of the Javik DLC doesn't count.

I think the fact that the synthetics went to war was the justification that the Catalyst was looking for. That's why I'm wondering if the initial aggression by the synthetics is the true cause of their arrival and not the arbitrary 50,000 year thing. In the clip I posted above Javik claims that all synthetics rebel because they know we created them and they know we are flawed. He goes on to explain his reasoning with Shep challenging him ever now and again only to get shot down. In the end of the convo he says that the galaxy only has room for the perfection of the synthetics or the chaos of the organics.

I don't believe an example of a cycle with the Synthetics on the verge of organic destruction exist. The reason would be that the Reapers never allow a cycle to get that far. Javik also says that we foolishly give synthetics the power to surpass organics, giving credence to the idea that the synthetics will eventually overpower organics. The fact that the Protheans were winning at the time meant little to the eventual end of the war.

"I don't believe an example of a cycle with the Synthetics on the verge of organic destruction exist. The reason would be that the Reapers never allow a cycle to get that far."

This goes back to my original point. The Catalyst tries to justify murdering trillions of organics using a faulty assumption that is not backed up by any proof whatsoever. The Mass Effect lore doesn't offer any proof either. The motive behind the most horrifying scheme in the Mass Effect universe's history is a supposition that comes out of thin air at the very last minute. And nobody, not the writers nor does Shepard, hold The Catalyst accountable for that AT ALL.

"Javik also says we foolishly give synthetics the power to surpass organics, giving credence to the idea that the synthetics will eventually overpower organics."

Legion, the Geth, and EDI all speak against this idea.

Shep himself brings up Legion and EDI in the exact conversation I'm referencing. The whole conversation starts with Javik telling Shep he wants Legion gone because he's a synthetic. Shep defends synthetics by using Legion and EDI as examples for being able to coexist against Javik's history.

I think the whole point with the ending is that the Reaper solution is a BAD solution for the current cycle, which is why I went with the synthesis solution. Everyone becomes both so there is no more drama.

So, it's a bad solution for this cycle, but it was okay for others? Once again, I need proof of this from the lore.

Also, you think the Synthesis solution is okay? Forcing every sentient being, organic and synthetic, to undergo severe, fundamental changes to the core of their being without their consent? If you approve of the rape of a person's DNA, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.

Yeah but it's alluded to repeatedly. They never saying it quite like I said it granted, but they give you the general gist of it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they meant.

Give me examples from the games.

It's in the DLC through conversations with Javik. He wants all synthetics destroyed because during is own cycle, before their own reaper invasion, symbiotic synthetics were created that eventually tried to snuff them all out.

The idea is that the reapers come in and prevent these situations from ending in synthetics wiping out all life. If organics never got advanced enough to discover the citadel then they would pose no risk to the galaxy as a whole.

So, the justification for the inclusion of an ending in which the declaration that "all organics will eventually create synthetics that will eventually try to wipe out all organics" is made is only available via optional downloadable content?

I didn't play the Javik DLC, so answer this for me: what happened to the symbiotic synthetics?

The DLC was a big sticking point for a lot of people (myself included) because Javik provided a huge amount of context to the reapers and the story as a whole especially on Thessia. It should have been included in the game. What essentially happened is that the machines turned on their masters and the Prothean Empire fought them in the "Metacon War". Javik said they were turning the tide and then the Reapers showed up.

So, in an effort to save the Protheans from synthetics, the Reapers stopped the Protheans from defeating the symbiotic synthetics? Did I understand that correctly?

No. The Reapers weren't trying to save them. They were ending it all.

The Prothean Empire was made up of the true Protheans and the races they subjugated. Any race that didn't comply with their rule was destroyed. I don't know if its a coincidence that the Reapers came during their "Metacon War" and during the present time "Geth War" when organics created synthetics that could *possibly* destroy them, but the outcome of the war was never determined. All advanced races during that time fell under the Prothean banner so they were all eliminated.

I don't know if its ever stated if the Reaper cycle has a hard date or if the time of their arrival coincides with the rise of synthetics, which happens to be about 50,000 years. The question would be if the Reapers would still purge every 50,000 years if there was no synthetic threat present. If they still do it without synthetics present in that cycle then they have no justification. If their method is tried and true then it continues to make sense until the present cycle when it was no longer a viable option.

But I was initially looking for an example from Mass Effect lore that would support the Catalyst's theory that synthetics would, if given the chance, wipe out all organics.

In the Prothean example, they were turning the tide of the war. It wasn't a certainty that the synthetics would wipe them out. Therefore, the example of the Javik DLC doesn't count.

I think the fact that the synthetics went to war was the justification that the Catalyst was looking for. That's why I'm wondering if the initial aggression by the synthetics is the true cause of their arrival and not the arbitrary 50,000 year thing. In the clip I posted above Javik claims that all synthetics rebel because they know we created them and they know we are flawed. He goes on to explain his reasoning with Shep challenging him ever now and again only to get shot down. In the end of the convo he says that the galaxy only has room for the perfection of the synthetics or the chaos of the organics.

I don't believe an example of a cycle with the Synthetics on the verge of organic destruction exist. The reason would be that the Reapers never allow a cycle to get that far. Javik also says that we foolishly give synthetics the power to surpass organics, giving credence to the idea that the synthetics will eventually overpower organics. The fact that the Protheans were winning at the time meant little to the eventual end of the war.

"I don't believe an example of a cycle with the Synthetics on the verge of organic destruction exist. The reason would be that the Reapers never allow a cycle to get that far."

This goes back to my original point. The Catalyst tries to justify murdering trillions of organics using a faulty assumption that is not backed up by any proof whatsoever. The Mass Effect lore doesn't offer any proof either. The motive behind the most horrifying scheme in the Mass Effect universe's history is a supposition that comes out of thin air at the very last minute. And nobody, not the writers nor does Shepard, hold The Catalyst accountable for that AT ALL.

"Javik also says we foolishly give synthetics the power to surpass organics, giving credence to the idea that the synthetics will eventually overpower organics."

Legion, the Geth, and EDI all speak against this idea.

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.

Yeah but it's alluded to repeatedly. They never saying it quite like I said it granted, but they give you the general gist of it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they meant.

Give me examples from the games.

It's in the DLC through conversations with Javik. He wants all synthetics destroyed because during is own cycle, before their own reaper invasion, symbiotic synthetics were created that eventually tried to snuff them all out.

The idea is that the reapers come in and prevent these situations from ending in synthetics wiping out all life. If organics never got advanced enough to discover the citadel then they would pose no risk to the galaxy as a whole.

So, the justification for the inclusion of an ending in which the declaration that "all organics will eventually create synthetics that will eventually try to wipe out all organics" is made is only available via optional downloadable content?

I didn't play the Javik DLC, so answer this for me: what happened to the symbiotic synthetics?

The DLC was a big sticking point for a lot of people (myself included) because Javik provided a huge amount of context to the reapers and the story as a whole especially on Thessia. It should have been included in the game. What essentially happened is that the machines turned on their masters and the Prothean Empire fought them in the "Metacon War". Javik said they were turning the tide and then the Reapers showed up.

So, in an effort to save the Protheans from synthetics, the Reapers stopped the Protheans from defeating the symbiotic synthetics? Did I understand that correctly?

No. The Reapers weren't trying to save them. They were ending it all.

The Prothean Empire was made up of the true Protheans and the races they subjugated. Any race that didn't comply with their rule was destroyed. I don't know if its a coincidence that the Reapers came during their "Metacon War" and during the present time "Geth War" when organics created synthetics that could *possibly* destroy them, but the outcome of the war was never determined. All advanced races during that time fell under the Prothean banner so they were all eliminated.

I don't know if its ever stated if the Reaper cycle has a hard date or if the time of their arrival coincides with the rise of synthetics, which happens to be about 50,000 years. The question would be if the Reapers would still purge every 50,000 years if there was no synthetic threat present. If they still do it without synthetics present in that cycle then they have no justification. If their method is tried and true then it continues to make sense until the present cycle when it was no longer a viable option.

But I was initially looking for an example from Mass Effect lore that would support the Catalyst's theory that synthetics would, if given the chance, wipe out all organics.

In the Prothean example, they were turning the tide of the war. It wasn't a certainty that the synthetics would wipe them out. Therefore, the example of the Javik DLC doesn't count.

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.

Yeah but it's alluded to repeatedly. They never saying it quite like I said it granted, but they give you the general gist of it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they meant.

Give me examples from the games.

It's in the DLC through conversations with Javik. He wants all synthetics destroyed because during is own cycle, before their own reaper invasion, symbiotic synthetics were created that eventually tried to snuff them all out.

The idea is that the reapers come in and prevent these situations from ending in synthetics wiping out all life. If organics never got advanced enough to discover the citadel then they would pose no risk to the galaxy as a whole.

So, the justification for the inclusion of an ending in which the declaration that "all organics will eventually create synthetics that will eventually try to wipe out all organics" is made is only available via optional downloadable content?

I didn't play the Javik DLC, so answer this for me: what happened to the symbiotic synthetics?

The DLC was a big sticking point for a lot of people (myself included) because Javik provided a huge amount of context to the reapers and the story as a whole especially on Thessia. It should have been included in the game. What essentially happened is that the machines turned on their masters and the Prothean Empire fought them in the "Metacon War". Javik said they were turning the tide and then the Reapers showed up.

So, in an effort to save the Protheans from synthetics, the Reapers stopped the Protheans from defeating the symbiotic synthetics? Did I understand that correctly?

@golguin said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.

Yeah but it's alluded to repeatedly. They never saying it quite like I said it granted, but they give you the general gist of it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they meant.

Give me examples from the games.

It's in the DLC through conversations with Javik. He wants all synthetics destroyed because during is own cycle, before their own reaper invasion, symbiotic synthetics were created that eventually tried to snuff them all out.

The idea is that the reapers come in and prevent these situations from ending in synthetics wiping out all life. If organics never got advanced enough to discover the citadel then they would pose no risk to the galaxy as a whole.

So, the justification for the inclusion of an ending in which the declaration that "all organics will eventually create synthetics that will eventually try to wipe out all organics" is made is only available via optional downloadable content?

I didn't play the Javik DLC, so answer this for me: what happened to the symbiotic synthetics?

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.

Yeah but it's alluded to repeatedly. They never saying it quite like I said it granted, but they give you the general gist of it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they meant.

Give me examples from the games.

@Brodehouse said:

@Lord_Punch said:

@Brodehouse said:

@RVonE I'm constantly baffled beyond reason when I hear people continue to express the opinion regarding the Reapers destroying some life to save all life. I wonder if they were paying attention to any of the games. The Reapers don't destroy all organic life, they destroy all _advanced_ organic life. The last time Reapers be reapin', humans were cave people and salarians communicated by licking. The fear is that these advanced societies will create a synthetic life force that doesn't have the same 'ethics' as the Reapers; an AI that actually will destroy all organic life in the galaxy. The Reapers are pruning the tree to prevent it from growing something that kills the entire tree. The Reapers are the Catalyst's pruning shears, to save the galaxy from final, permanent death. This makes complete sense, and fits with everything stated in the previous games. It fits with the same parent/child drama that defines the entire series. That is not the problem with the ending.

So, it's okay to annihilate millions of species because you are afraid of an outcome that you have no proof will ever come to light?

The Catalyst has no concept of 'okay' morally, it doesn't think in terms of morals, it thinks in absolutes. In the Catalyst's view of the situation, it's the only way to be sure. The structured, ordered annihilation of some organics is preferable to the possibility of the annihilation of all organics. With the Reapers it can prevent it in complete perpetuity, until now ("My solution won't work anymore.") With the Reapers, there was a 0% chance of the death of all life in the galaxy. Without the solution, even if it was the smallest fraction, it's not 0, and a machine never chooses 0.0001% over 0%. You are no more important to it than the Protheans before you, or the varren and fish who will rule the galaxy after you. And technically, you are being saved, forever, in the shell of a Reaper. Also, you have no idea what built the Catalyst and how it came to its conclusion. Millions of years have passed since it created its solution. Tens of thousands of cycles. There are problems with the Mass Effect ending, but the Catalyst's reasons for destroying advanced organics check out. It fits with the entire series. One of the running stories is powerful organics (humans, quarians, etc) destroying synthetic life before it grows too powerful, allowing it to remain as undeveloped VIs. At the end you discover this exact same thing is happening in reverse, a powerful synthetic is destroying organic life before it grows too powerful, resetting it back to primitive, uncivilized organics.

" The structured, ordered annihilation of some organics is preferable to the possibility of the annihilation of all organics. With the Reapers it can prevent it in complete perpetuity, until now ("My solution won't work anymore.") With the Reapers, there was a 0% chance of the death of all life in the galaxy. Without the solution, even if it was the smallest fraction, it's not 0, and a machine never chooses 0.0001% over 0%."

The Catalyst is basing all of this on NOTHING. It offers no proof, and neither does the game.

"One of the running stories is powerful organics (humans, quarians, etc) destroying synthetic life before it grows too powerful, allowing it to remain as undeveloped VIs."

The storylines involving EDI and Legion would beg to differ with your assertion.

@babblinmule said:

@Lord_Punch: I guess its because the original rulers of the galaxy created an army of synthetics so fecked up in the head and so powerful that they didnt want to even risk anything like that happening again. Especially since, right or wrong, they believed that organic life will inevitably create something so fecked up in the head and so powerful.

The problem is none of that is ever present in any capacity in the Mass Effect lore. You are resorting to creating fan fiction in order to fix the logical problems with the ending of the game.