mystakin

@Sergio said:

@mystakin said:

The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play.

Honestly, you had me up to this point, and then I ended up rolling my eyes. This isn't rape fantasy, as much as some people would like to equate this to it in order to serve their agenda. The problem is that you end up desensitizing people with this jargon when it doesn't fit, and makes it harder for us to take notice when there are actual occurrences of it. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

Rape is forced sex through the use of violence, and the trailer links sex with violence in the audience's mind. I don't believe anyone is accusing Agent 47 of raping the assassinuns, they're saying that the trailer is promoting an atmosphere that normalizes sex and violence together, much like most pornography. In a world where sex and violence are intrinsically linked, rape doesn't appear as disgraceful as it really is because a sexual act is inherently violent. Ironically, the desensitization you worry the claims of the rape fantasy are causing is the very same thing those people are trying to fight against.

@LiquidPrince said:

@mystakin said:

@LiquidPrince said:

@mystakin: That list raises an entirely separate issue which is that the games industry is mostly dominated by male protagonists. So it's unfair to compare the top games of last year, or any year for that matter because the ratio of female protagonists to male ones is off. My argument is that people are turning situations that aren't sexist into stupid sexist discussions. If you find Lara's moaning sexual you should sit down and take a good long hard look at yourself. I didn't even think of that until it started getting criticized. Or the rape fantasy that 47 is apparently having in killing the assassin's on his door step. People turn regular situations into sexist ones whenever a girl is involved, yet in the same situation wouldn't bat an eye lash if the scene was played out by a man.

Like I said: The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?

Okay, I misunderstood your argument, then. For that I certainly apologize. I'm incredibly hopeful for the Tomb Raider reboot, but I will admit the "We want the gamer to feel like she needs to be protected" quote has me a bit nervous. The gamer should want Lara to fight back and be empowered, not for someone else to come along and save her. Only time will tell how Lara is portrayed in the final product, but that quote is certainly unnerving to me as someone who is excited for it.

As for the Hitman trailer, I definitely have problems with it. Not just because of the senseless violence (which is a separate gaming issue, one that also made me uncomfortable in the Splinter Cell Blacklist trailer which was all male/male violence) but because of the imagery. Why are the enemies all women/nuns? There's no context in the trailer that explains it. Personally, I think they wanted to raise a controversy and get people talking -- mission accomplished I suppose -- but that's not a justifiable reason to have such a brutal scene. We see Agent 47 with his shirt off and he's horribly scarred. He's obviously been through hell and back before these nuns came along. However, once the nuns go into sexy-fight mode, their bodies are pristine. No scars, no bumps, no bruises, pure sex appeal. Apparently they have no battle scars. Are they new to the sexy nun fight club or just so good they never get touched? They're apparently not good enough to damage Agent 47 at all. Why are they dressed so skimpy as well? How does that give them a combat advantage? It doesn't, it's just for male gamers to drool over, and the camera angles accentuate that (shots with their asses mid-frame, of their breasts and asses when they remove the nun outfits, even a pretty explicit upskirt angle). The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play. If people are saying the trailer is offensive because of the violence alone, they're touching on an issue without digging deep enough. The trailer is bad, but the violence is only part of the reason why. The sad thing is, the trailer is also a horrible misrepresentation of the game itself.

See the issue I have with the Hitman trailers criticism is that there is no context for it. It reminds of people complaining why Joel from The Last of Us was murdering innocent looters. I was the one at that point saying that you can't assume they're innocent based on a demo that has no context or back story. It was later mentioned that Joel had met those particular bandits before and they were out for the kill. That is similar to this situation; we have no context as to why 47 is killing stripper nuns. For all we know the whole game could be about a league of assassins who are all female and they use they're sexuality to infiltrate different places and murder the people they need to murder. Women are known for being the fairer sex, and if a girl is an assassin it makes logical sense for her to use her looks as an asset. It also makes sense that 47 would attack the gun toting stripper assassin's like anyone else trying to attack him. What I've said above is simply a theoretical example, but for people to complain about something without context in my opinion is foolish.

But that's the exact issue, there's no context. All we have to go off of is the trailer. No one sensible would call Hitman Absolution sexist, because the game isn't out, but the trailer very obviously is. It offers no context, which is the trailer's fault, for what's happening. It's just senseless violence, much like the Blacklist trailer. How does dressing as a whore make the assassinuns better fighters in this instance? If they were trying to lure Agent 47 into doing something, sure, but they aren't. They're just attacking him and being sexy doesn't benefit them in any way. Even if it did, that doesn't address why the women have no battle scars (while Agent 47, a hardened veteran, does) and why the trailer is shot in such a pornographic style (the women's bodies are the focus of the camera when they're on screen).

@LiquidPrince said:

@mystakin: That list raises an entirely separate issue which is that the games industry is mostly dominated by male protagonists. So it's unfair to compare the top games of last year, or any year for that matter because the ratio of female protagonists to male ones is off. My argument is that people are turning situations that aren't sexist into stupid sexist discussions. If you find Lara's moaning sexual you should sit down and take a good long hard look at yourself. I didn't even think of that until it started getting criticized. Or the rape fantasy that 47 is apparently having in killing the assassin's on his door step. People turn regular situations into sexist ones whenever a girl is involved, yet in the same situation wouldn't bat an eye lash if the scene was played out by a man.

Like I said: The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?

Okay, I misunderstood your argument, then. For that I certainly apologize. I'm incredibly hopeful for the Tomb Raider reboot, but I will admit the "We want the gamer to feel like she needs to be protected" quote has me a bit nervous. The gamer should want Lara to fight back and be empowered, not for someone else to come along and save her. Only time will tell how Lara is portrayed in the final product, but that quote is certainly unnerving to me as someone who is excited for it.

As for the Hitman trailer, I definitely have problems with it. Not just because of the senseless violence (which is a separate gaming issue, one that also made me uncomfortable in the Splinter Cell Blacklist trailer which was all male/male violence) but because of the imagery. Why are the enemies all women/nuns? There's no context in the trailer that explains it. Personally, I think they wanted to raise a controversy and get people talking -- mission accomplished I suppose -- but that's not a justifiable reason to have such a brutal scene. We see Agent 47 with his shirt off and he's horribly scarred. He's obviously been through hell and back before these nuns came along. However, once the nuns go into sexy-fight mode, their bodies are pristine. No scars, no bumps, no bruises, pure sex appeal. Apparently they have no battle scars. Are they new to the sexy nun fight club or just so good they never get touched? They're apparently not good enough to damage Agent 47 at all. Why are they dressed so skimpy as well? How does that give them a combat advantage? It doesn't, it's just for male gamers to drool over, and the camera angles accentuate that (shots with their asses mid-frame, of their breasts and asses when they remove the nun outfits, even a pretty explicit upskirt angle). The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play. If people are saying the trailer is offensive because of the violence alone, they're touching on an issue without digging deep enough. The trailer is bad, but the violence is only part of the reason why. The sad thing is, the trailer is also a horrible misrepresentation of the game itself.

@LiquidPrince said:

@Animasta said:

@LiquidPrince said:

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic male protagonist who doesn't have to be a roided up space marine curb stopping everyone to develop their characters... There are plenty of female characters that are strong and not overly sexualized, ala Elika from Prince of Persia, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Chell from Portal, Lightning from Final Fantasy etc... So many good ones. Yet no one blows there lid when we see the four millionth muscle bag of a protagonist taking bullets to the face. There is a double standard in this industry and it makes people feel good to come out and say hey that's sexist, and I'm against sexism. That makes me an intelligent person right? RIGHT? Because... video games.

I can think of plenty of non roided up space marines in shooters... Artyom from Metro 2033, Degtyarev from stalker: CoP, Strelok from stalker; SoC, hell, everyone in CoD, Fear dude, far cry 2 dude... these are just from shooters btw. There's a WIDE RANGE of body types for men in video games.

also, four does not equal plenty, and chell is hardly a character, so that's really only 3 (also if you say Samus I'll punch you, because when they decided to make her a character was Other M)

Not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, but to say that there's plenty of those female characters... untrue.

I know, I'm not saying there isn't. I'm pointing out the flaw in the poster's complaint. There exists a double standard in this industry and in western culture in general. There are plenty of non sexualized female characters and plenty of none roided up male characters, but no one blows their lid when there is a muscle bag running around, yet as soon as a girl is shown in any sort of danger, oh lord help the internet from breaking...

The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?

EDIT - Also:

• Elika
• Jade
• Lightning
• Catwoman (Sexualized but uses it as form of empowerment)
• Chun-Li
• Elena
• Liara
• Anya

That's just from looking off my games shelf. There are many more games that have strong non sexualised female characters.

You're equating sexism with sexualization, which is inaccurate. Sexism, in media form, is the promotion of female stereotypes. One such stereotype, is that women are meant to be sexy/sexual beings for a man to gawk at. There are other stereotypes and tropes such as a manic pixey dream girl (A woman in a story that exists purely to show a man how to embrace life and have fun) and women in refrigerators (Death of a powerful female character for the sole purpose of having a plot device in a male driven story) that don't treat female characters with proper respect. Also, just because a game or movie has one of these tropes, it isn't immediately sexist.

As I've stated in other threads, men design men with muscles for other men to feel powerful vicariously through that character. It's a male power fantasy, and has nothing to do with being sexualized for women. That said, the male power fantasy is still a stereotype and can be limiting to male representation.

You want men that aren't muscle bags? You have them. Let's look at the top 10 games of last year according to Giant Bomb.

- Rayman Origins --- So unmuscley, he doesn't even have limbs

- LA Noire --- A main character with a lot of personal issues that he has to work through, very average build.

- Gears of War 3 --- Muscle bound guys that you talked about, so consider this "1" (Although, every character is this way in the universe, even women, so it could just be taken as a style of the world)

- Batman: Arkham City --- A good example of a muscle bound male protagonist. "2"

- The Witcher 2 --- Certainly a fit character, but nothing about him screams muscles. Just seems like how someone in his situation would look.

- Dead Space 2 --- Another average character without huge muscles.

- Portal 2 --- The first main character on the list that is female, take note of this.

- Bastion --- A kid protagonist. He has a huge head, but I don't think huge muscles.

- Saints Row --- A variety of characters that include muscly and average looking folks. The main character can be just about whatever you want. I played as a female protagonist and loved it. Ironically, might be the best use of women on this list.

- Skyrim --- Similar to the Witcher. Character is strong to fit into the lore but isn't overly muscled.

So out of 10 games, what do we have? Eight male protagonists, 2 of which are unreasonably built. If you're a top 10 game from 2011 and you're a man, you could be a detective, a super hero, a cartoon, a brave kid, an adventurer, etc. If you're a female in the top 10 games of 2011, you're Chell or the SR protagonist. The best products in gaming today are still all about men, male stories, and male desires. This doesn't even dive into the ACTUAL representation of women in each game, it just shows how few times you're even given their perspective.

It should also be noted, pointing out sexist female tropes is not an implied statement that sexist male tropes don't exist. Both exist, both are harmful, but female representation is much more limited as evidenced by this top 10. The lack of variety of women in gaming is what's truly harmful.

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@crithon said:

I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.

Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.

True and all that sounds good but once again i feel its the low hanging fruit, nothing wrong with a women wanting a men because I'm sure you can find many songs about a men wanting a women but that's ok. Also your point of Edward being a misrepresentation of a men is a point i find she lacks in making, which would be a more fair argument.

The thing is, women needing men is a stereotype, men needing women isn't. If anything, a song about a woman wanting a man is more similar to a song about a man having sex with tons of women and never getting emotionally attached. Those two songs play into the stereotypes of their respective genders. All I Want for Christmas plays into a stereotype, but if that stereotype didn't exist, it wouldn't be a problem.

The point that she should be more explicit about Edward being a misrepresentation of men is a fine critique of her video.

Well i can come to somewhat of an agreement with that. Even if i still don't buy that women needing a men = stereotype men needing a women = not a stereotype given that in the song is clearly referring to the women wanting one man and not just men in general which is different in my book. To the last point that all i would want in her videos she does and the upcoming video game tropes is that it comes off as fair and not just women are always misrepresented while men are always justly represented because it a man's power fantasy.

In her 2-part series on Lego she touches on male stereotypes in children's advertising as well. She's a feminist blog, though, so asking her to go over male stereotypes is sort of like asking a movie review to also cover TV shows. They certainly COULD, but it's not their focus. Male power fantasies are not proper representations of men, I don't want to suggest that. But white male stereotypes are typically less harmful because there are so many more realistic white male characters than realistic female characters. They're still harmful, but misrepresentation of women is a bigger issue.

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@crithon said:

I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.

Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.

True and all that sounds good but once again i feel its the low hanging fruit, nothing wrong with a women wanting a men because I'm sure you can find many songs about a men wanting a women but that's ok. Also your point of Edward being a misrepresentation of a men is a point i find she lacks in making, which would be a more fair argument.

The thing is, women needing men is a stereotype, men needing women isn't. If anything, a song about a woman wanting a man is more similar to a song about a man having sex with tons of women and never getting emotionally attached. Those two songs play into the stereotypes of their respective genders. All I Want for Christmas plays into a stereotype, but if that stereotype didn't exist, it wouldn't be a problem.

The point that she should be more explicit about Edward being a misrepresentation of men is a fine critique of her video.

@Harkat said:

@mystakin said:

I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together.

I'm going to chime in here. I saw that video and found it mostly ridiculous, though I'll agree she's right about Baby, It's Cold Outside.

I don't think "All I want for Christmas" is signaling all women just want a man at all. It's a love with silly wordplay tied to christmas. I'd say, on the whole, that love songs are pretty big from both sexes. I could just as easily say any given male-sung love song is promoting that all that's important to men is getting a woman. You might also consider that MC co-wrote the song herself.

Woman can write sexist material just as easily as men can. As I stated in my post, by itself, All I Want for Christmas is harmless. But when you combine it with the common media trope that all women need is a man (which there is no equivalent trope for men needing women), it can be viewed as harmful.

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@crithon said:

I have found her videos a bit trivial and she seems to have the same school of presentation to conservative commentators. I think her biggest problem is she focuses on trival issues and never grasps the reality. If it's enough to get us talking about how about "equal rights for women"? then I'm all for that, but trolling how mia is a "fighting fuck toy" that's just silly

Providing concrete examples of common sexist tropes in video games is... silly and trivial?

I feel you may be jumping the gun and taking his words out of context i kinda agree with crithon after watching i few of her videos. I'm all for equal representation of women along with races and other sexual orientations in games. but i do find that she uses a lot of little/simple examples to build up her agreement kinda of the low hanging fruit if you will. Making issue with every "sexed up female characters" and every stereotypical female.

When i find the real problem is simply having a balance. You will never stop stereotypes but you don't have to as long as you have other deeper characters in force. Because at the end of the day some women want to play a super sexy chick sometime too so it not just a men fantasy all the time.

What's wrong with her examples, exactly? I'm not understanding what makes her examples "simple." Anita's web series is not about stopping stereotypes, it's about promoting an understanding about which stereotypes are most common and what makes them harmful.

I'm all for more understanding and making everyone more aware of the many issues we face when it comes to under representing our wildly diverse world we live in. Her example's such as picking on Mai in a fighting game that has a good balance of female characters such as King. When Dead or Alive marketing of boob tech seems more of a worthy complaint.

Her list of sexist Christmas songs which included

Mariah Carey - All i want for Christmas - Reason - song being about a women only needing a men for Christmas (gifted a man as she says)

Many artist - Santa baby - reason - supports the gold digger trope of women

Many artist - baby, it's cold outside - reason - date rape song as its known because the guy in the song is being manipulative in keeping the women inside for sex

Her point of why man should hate twilight

As she says not because Edward is a sensitive guy but because he is a manipulative creepy stalker.

Now all these points may have some truth or merit in some form but not in the context she is putting them in. With the Christmas songs for example why in her point on baby it's cold outside she is quick to think the men is up to no good and only wants sex out of the ordeal. In all a want for Christmas i see nothing wrong with the song being about the simple fact of a women wanting to see her men for Christmas.

Now for twilight why must man hate it because Edward is a manipulative creepy stalker because their are many people who fit that bill. Also last time i checked vampires are manipulative, creepy, and born stalkers. I think we should take offense to how weak of a female character Bella is seeming to be ruled by her romantic leads.

So to close I'm not saying her message is not important because it is and i support the fight to have better female leads in games I'm down for that. but not all feminist movements/objectives are equal because sometimes they complain about the small stuff to have a easy argument while tearing down men or men stereotypes as if its fact. which again not to belittle how women are misrepresented many times over but it not a one way street many other areas of our world are misrepresented too, along with sometimes its ok to be sexy.

I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.

Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.

@ultimatepunchrod said:

@mystakin I read that comic, and while it was kind of clever, I have to say that I disagreed with it. It doesn't seem fair to put all women into a category that says they like the version of GL or any other super hero that the female in the comic drew to prove her point just like it isn't fair to say that all men think the images of Catwoman you're referring to are attractive. I think she looks kind of gross, and I don't want to look at that and I'm the target demographic for that comic. I mean, do women not find muscly and heroic men attractive? The comic also seems to suggest that all men want to look like the super heroes in comics which is another thing that I don't really agree with. I want to be fit/healthy, but looking like Batman would be absurd and I'd basically have to dedicate my life to body building to even get close. I think that comic grossly oversimplifies the issue.

The article also points out only the worst aspects of females in comics, but I do agree that women need to cover up in comic books especially the Star Sapphires. Those costumes make me feel uncomfortable when I'm reading GL comics (which I really like).

Keep in mind, we're working with averages here. Obviously there's going to be men who don't like sexualized women and women who like buff, muscly men... but that doesn't seem to be the case. Think about the type of male actors in Rom Coms and compare them to the type of characters in comics.

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@crithon said:

I have found her videos a bit trivial and she seems to have the same school of presentation to conservative commentators. I think her biggest problem is she focuses on trival issues and never grasps the reality. If it's enough to get us talking about how about "equal rights for women"? then I'm all for that, but trolling how mia is a "fighting fuck toy" that's just silly

Providing concrete examples of common sexist tropes in video games is... silly and trivial?

I feel you may be jumping the gun and taking his words out of context i kinda agree with crithon after watching i few of her videos. I'm all for equal representation of women along with races and other sexual orientations in games. but i do find that she uses a lot of little/simple examples to build up her agreement kinda of the low hanging fruit if you will. Making issue with every "sexed up female characters" and every stereotypical female.

When i find the real problem is simply having a balance. You will never stop stereotypes but you don't have to as long as you have other deeper characters in force. Because at the end of the day some women want to play a super sexy chick sometime too so it not just a men fantasy all the time.

What's wrong with her examples, exactly? I'm not understanding what makes her examples "simple." Anita's web series is not about stopping stereotypes, it's about promoting an understanding about which stereotypes are most common and what makes them harmful.