Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

I've been hearing a lot of hoopla about women in the game industry in all forms, whether it be actual digital characters, or booth babes or whatever else, and I'm really tired of most peoples quotes with regards to how they are being treated. Not tired of the subject, but I'm tired of the stupid double standards where it's okay for a roided up male character to run around curb stomping other dudes, but if it's a girl then oh my god the world is ending because women can't possibly be hurt or killed in a video game without it being some sort of rape fantasy... I hold the unpopular opinion that majority of people don't really understand what it means to be a feminist or hold the ideal that women and men should be treated equal. In fact most of the time when people say they want equality, it's more like woman should get all the benefits a male is afforded (this is of course totally reasonable and something we should strive for) but none of the down sides.

I don't understand why ANY of the Tomb Raider stuff has been brought up at all. What makes Lara different then every other male character in any video game ever? I mean, the typical Lara Croft of old games was a pretty sexualized character, but in this new iteration, she's a more naturally proportioned younger looking character. So why is it so terrible that a girl "oh noes" is getting the shit beat out of her? I've heard people say she moans a lot. Perhaps more then Drake does when he gets beat up. But the thing is Lara in these new demos is also being subjected to a more cartoony brand of violence, perhaps due to the animations, and it's happening more rapidly... So obviously she would be moaning after sliding down a river smashing into a crashed airplane, falling out of said airplane, opening a parachute, crashing into a bunch of trees and then falling to the ground... WHY is she moaning...? WHY?

Another thing is the Hitman trailer... The first time I watched that, I was like "ow that's brutal" and perhaps in my own wierd sexist way thought, "I don't like seeing woman hit in that fashion (or any fashion for that matter)." I then began thinking, why do I not like that idea... I mean why is it acceptable to see the Gears of War dudes get curb stomped, or Issac from Dead Space get mutilated, but when it's girls... ASSASSIN girls mind you, it's suddenly the worst thing ever. But then I've been reading about the idea that that trailer was sort of a rape fantasy apparently because 47 is hitting sexy woman... WHAT? Where did that idea even come from? Who makes that sort of connection. Why is it taboo to show violence towards woman but violence towards men is completely accepted. Equality right guys? I mean I get it: On a personal level I have a deep distaste for violence against woman... But these are A. digital people, B. Assassins...

Next thing is booth babes. I understand that the distaste stems from the idea that gamer's think that companies put the booth babes there because we're all nerds apparently and they will attract us. It sucks that they have such low opinions of us and that should change. But aside from that I recall reading that someone (a female who said they were "fit") in the gaming press felt uncomfortable because she felt like she walked into a a strip club and was being compared? I could be mis-remembering the exact quote but regardless, why is the mere presence of woman such a weird taboo thing? If the booth babe is confident in her own looks and comfortable standing there as a model of sorts then why do others feel uncomfortable around them? There is some sort of underlying insecurity you should probably think about. The show is a giant spectacle akin to many other trade shows and car shows and what not... Yet no one complains when a booth babe stands next to a Ferrari...

The above argument probably makes more sense with regards to cosplayers. For example people have been complaining about people like Jessica Nigri and her being the spokesperson of the Lollipop Chainsaw game... Why is it so weird that she's wearing those sexy clothes if she feels comfortable in showing off the gifts god gave her? I mean it is representative of the character from the game.

The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?

Anyways I may be missing the point as to where the controversy is coming from and if I am please clarify, but to me it always seems like people say we want equality, except OH MY GOD SHE'S A LADY, SHE CAN'T BE SHOWN IN PAIN... That's voyeuristic apparently...

#1 Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

I've been hearing a lot of hoopla about women in the game industry in all forms, whether it be actual digital characters, or booth babes or whatever else, and I'm really tired of most peoples quotes with regards to how they are being treated. Not tired of the subject, but I'm tired of the stupid double standards where it's okay for a roided up male character to run around curb stomping other dudes, but if it's a girl then oh my god the world is ending because women can't possibly be hurt or killed in a video game without it being some sort of rape fantasy... I hold the unpopular opinion that majority of people don't really understand what it means to be a feminist or hold the ideal that women and men should be treated equal. In fact most of the time when people say they want equality, it's more like woman should get all the benefits a male is afforded (this is of course totally reasonable and something we should strive for) but none of the down sides.

I don't understand why ANY of the Tomb Raider stuff has been brought up at all. What makes Lara different then every other male character in any video game ever? I mean, the typical Lara Croft of old games was a pretty sexualized character, but in this new iteration, she's a more naturally proportioned younger looking character. So why is it so terrible that a girl "oh noes" is getting the shit beat out of her? I've heard people say she moans a lot. Perhaps more then Drake does when he gets beat up. But the thing is Lara in these new demos is also being subjected to a more cartoony brand of violence, perhaps due to the animations, and it's happening more rapidly... So obviously she would be moaning after sliding down a river smashing into a crashed airplane, falling out of said airplane, opening a parachute, crashing into a bunch of trees and then falling to the ground... WHY is she moaning...? WHY?

Another thing is the Hitman trailer... The first time I watched that, I was like "ow that's brutal" and perhaps in my own wierd sexist way thought, "I don't like seeing woman hit in that fashion (or any fashion for that matter)." I then began thinking, why do I not like that idea... I mean why is it acceptable to see the Gears of War dudes get curb stomped, or Issac from Dead Space get mutilated, but when it's girls... ASSASSIN girls mind you, it's suddenly the worst thing ever. But then I've been reading about the idea that that trailer was sort of a rape fantasy apparently because 47 is hitting sexy woman... WHAT? Where did that idea even come from? Who makes that sort of connection. Why is it taboo to show violence towards woman but violence towards men is completely accepted. Equality right guys? I mean I get it: On a personal level I have a deep distaste for violence against woman... But these are A. digital people, B. Assassins...

Next thing is booth babes. I understand that the distaste stems from the idea that gamer's think that companies put the booth babes there because we're all nerds apparently and they will attract us. It sucks that they have such low opinions of us and that should change. But aside from that I recall reading that someone (a female who said they were "fit") in the gaming press felt uncomfortable because she felt like she walked into a a strip club and was being compared? I could be mis-remembering the exact quote but regardless, why is the mere presence of woman such a weird taboo thing? If the booth babe is confident in her own looks and comfortable standing there as a model of sorts then why do others feel uncomfortable around them? There is some sort of underlying insecurity you should probably think about. The show is a giant spectacle akin to many other trade shows and car shows and what not... Yet no one complains when a booth babe stands next to a Ferrari...

The above argument probably makes more sense with regards to cosplayers. For example people have been complaining about people like Jessica Nigri and her being the spokesperson of the Lollipop Chainsaw game... Why is it so weird that she's wearing those sexy clothes if she feels comfortable in showing off the gifts god gave her? I mean it is representative of the character from the game.

The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?

Anyways I may be missing the point as to where the controversy is coming from and if I am please clarify, but to me it always seems like people say we want equality, except OH MY GOD SHE'S A LADY, SHE CAN'T BE SHOWN IN PAIN... That's voyeuristic apparently...

#2 Posted by Hizang (8533 posts) -

This is all really bad on video games as a whole, I hope this blows over soon.

#3 Posted by mandude (2669 posts) -

I haven't even watched the Tomb Raider trailer, but the fact that I'm hearing about it on such a constant basis makes me think that they had a very well thought out marketing campaign.

I don't even know what I want to say about booth babes beyond the fact that the whole concept is just awful and since hearing about it, I want to know even less about E3 than previously.

#4 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

Because people are retarded. Oh noes! A female video game character is getting hurt! This is some of the most sexist stuff I've ever seen! All the while Isaac gets his head mutalated through his eyeball with a needle and people rave about how amazing it is, but a female!? That's too far.

#5 Posted by Salarn (465 posts) -

@LiquidPrince said:

it's more like woman should get all the benefits a male is afforded but none of the down sides.

Can you clarify this statement? Possibly offer some of the benefits that women might want and which down sides they don't?

#6 Posted by Jimbo (9796 posts) -

You don't seem that tired of it, to be fair.

#7 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4664 posts) -

You need to remember where all of this angst is generally coming from - the Bay Area. California is, let's say, a dream-like world where people have unreasonable expectations, to say the least.

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

#8 Posted by Lively (298 posts) -

What I'm tired of is being given stories and visuals in videogames that assume I'm a horny, brain-dead 13 year old boy. I'm ready to be treated like an adult. I love scantily clad women as much as the next man, but frankly there are other places on the internet I can get those from.

#9 Posted by Dagbiker (6957 posts) -

I have no Problems with the Tomb Raider stuff, nor with the Agent 47 stuff. In fact I didn't think anything sexiest until it was brought up in the forums. Perhaps that says something about me, I don't know.

As I stated in the other thread, you cant blame a Woman for felling like shes being compared, when she was brought up in a world that compares Woman.

#10 Edited by Mutley (300 posts) -

Totally agree with you.

I think its ridiculous to see people preaching on saying " EQUALITY FOR MEN AND WOMEN!!!" and see a man getting battered or beaten up in a video game, bat a eyelash to it and think its A-OK but place a woman in the same situation and just say "OMG GUYS A WOMAN IS BEING HURT WHY IS THIS HAPPENING!?!? AND GOOD LORD THE MOANING!?!"

Yeah, that's real equality there.

#11 Posted by Landon (4132 posts) -

@Salarn said:

@LiquidPrince said:

it's more like woman should get all the benefits a male is afforded but none of the down sides.

Can you clarify this statement? Possibly offer some of the benefits that women might want and which down sides they don't?

#12 Posted by Jimbo (9796 posts) -

Also, the plural of 'woman' is 'women'.  You know, for any future rants about gender "equality"...

#13 Edited by Dylabaloo (1549 posts) -

I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.

#14 Posted by ColinWright (741 posts) -
@Jimbo said:
Also, the plural of 'woman' is 'women'.  You know, for any future rants about gender "equality"...
When you can't attack the argument, attack the grammar. Oh, Internet. 
#15 Posted by Lively (298 posts) -

@Mutley: @Mutley said:

Totally agree with you.

I think its ridiculous to see people preaching on saying " EQUALITY FOR MEN AND WOMEN!!!" and see a man getting battered or beaten up in a video game, bat a eyelash to it and think its A-OK but place a women in the same situation and just say "OMG GUYS A WOMEN IS BEING HURT WHY IS THIS HAPPENING!?!? AND GOOD LORD THE MOANING!?!"

Yeah, that's real equality there.

I think what is odd about the Tomb Raider demo is how much she's vocalizing her pain, despite being alone with hostiles nearby. It's like a child crying out for a protector, rather than an adult trying to survive. Coupled with Lara being a sexy young college-age woman, this starts to seem kind of sleazy on the part of the developers. This in particular is what Jeff Gerstmann thought was so manipulative, and I tend to agree with him.

#16 Posted by Jimbo (9796 posts) -
@Dylabaloo said:

I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.

They should be complaining that it looks boring as fuck.
#17 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -

Everyone's sick of it, yet everyone keeps making topics.
 
Nothing personal, to none of the topic starters, but its hardly the way to let it die down.
Its a total non issue, it'll blow over as soon as we stop fanning the flames.

#18 Posted by Dagbiker (6957 posts) -

@TaliciaDragonsong said:

Everyone's sick of it, yet everyone keeps making topics. Nothing personal, to none of the topic starters, but its hardly the way to let it die down. Its a total non issue, it'll blow over as soon as we stop fanning the flames.

I agree, in fact my first post was going to be a mock Mass Effect 3 Review.

#19 Posted by Jimbo (9796 posts) -
@ColinWright said:
@Jimbo said:
Also, the plural of 'woman' is 'women'.  You know, for any future rants about gender "equality"...
When you can't attack the argument, attack the grammar. Oh, Internet. 
It's pretty telling if the person making the argument about how women should or shouldn't be treated doesn't care enough to know how to refer to more than one of them.
#20 Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

@Jimbo: I apologize if my grammar was off... Wrote the rant on my cell phone while at work.

#21 Posted by gamefreak9 (2356 posts) -

Guys get killed and mutilated more than women and women get raped more than men... so video games represent that? Though tbh I really don't see the big deal with the Lara trailer... he basically touches her ass for like a split second? then she bites his ear off and kills him and we feel sorry for HER? WTf guys? That is fucked up.

#22 Posted by Dagbiker (6957 posts) -

@Jimbo said:

@ColinWright said:
@Jimbo said:
Also, the plural of 'woman' is 'women'. You know, for any future rants about gender "equality"...
When you can't attack the argument, attack the grammar. Oh, Internet.
It's pretty telling if the person making the argument about how women should or shouldn't be treated doesn't care enough to know how to refer to more than one of them.

Yah, it tells me that he needs spell check. Nothing else.

#23 Posted by flindip (533 posts) -

@TaliciaDragonsong:

Agreed. I think a better conversation is why certain genre's have become completely stale mechanically. FPS are a great example of this. Who the hell cares how characters are represented if the game plays like ass to begin with?!

I think game developers should concentrate on how their games play, then how they are perceived with the window dressing at the moment.

#24 Posted by chaos_burn (2 posts) -

video games objectify women?!

Well chick-flicks objectify men! That's right, you girls are obsessed with your silly little romantic films that portray every guy as some charming, handsome gentleman and creates an unrealistic standard that no man can attain! You drool over teenage werewolf boys with no shirt on, but as soon as Lara Crofts bottom jiggles a little too much, then all videogame boys are swine!

Tell you what, I will be fine with no sexualisation of women in videogames if you girls ditch the hot guys from romance films - then we'll have equality.

Also, ditch people like Nikki Minaj, the Jersey Shore girls, Kardashians, Lohans, Spears and Rihannas - buying their albums and watching their shows really doesn't help women get out of looking like easy rides.

#25 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -
@flindip said:

@TaliciaDragonsong:

Agreed. I think a better conversation is why certain genre's have become completely stale mechanically. FPS are a great example of this. Who the hell cares how characters are represented if the game plays like ass to begin with?!

I think game developers should concentrate on how their games play, then how they are perceived with the window dressing at the moment.

I'm totally with you on that, its time for more gameplay and less graphics.
Because in the end I will see past the graphics and notice the limits of  the gameplay, which is why I often drop games like Skyrim, Battlefield 3 and GTA.
 
Also why I mostly like RPG's and MMO.
They give you options to be male, female or a freaking Minotaur, and there won't be super complex (or so they like to think) backstories, just focus on the story around you and the choices you make.
#26 Posted by Subjugation (4719 posts) -

If you're sick of it you probably shouldn't have made a topic inviting the whole thing to roar back up again. I'm tired of it too and generally agree with your points, but I'm not doing anything to invite further discussion on it. Let it die.

#27 Edited by Stete (729 posts) -

Why? Because nothing generates attention and page views than a little bit of short sighted controversy.

#28 Posted by JasonR86 (9650 posts) -

Gender roles and social norms are huge issues and, unfortunately, the most vocal on the subjects are often those who are the most rigid, most careless, and least reasonable.

#29 Posted by OllyOxenFree (4970 posts) -
@Stete said:

Why? Because nothing generates attention and page views than a little bit of short sighted controversy.

That's the one movie where a dude anally rapes a woman, right? ART!!!
#30 Posted by deathstriker666 (1337 posts) -

If they made a Rapelay with less rape would that be better? Fuck, it doesn't matter. Fuck Lara Croft. It's one of those shitty video game franchises that should be long dead by now. The marketing team that put out that trailer knew exactly what they were doing. So lets stop giving them publicity and interest which they so desperately want to receive. Okay Internet?

#31 Posted by mscupcakes (612 posts) -

Just in relation to Tomb Raider; as a female gamer, I really liked what they showed at E3. She doesn't have perfect make up, flawless hair or oversized breasts. It leaves me hopeful that we'll see more and more female protagonists being treated the same way as their male counterparts. I know some people bring up her moaning as sounding too sexual, but women don't sound like men, you can't compare the noise she makes to the grunts and groans of Nathan Drake. Of course we want equality but that doesn't mean that she should sound less feminine. I'd probably moan or scream if I fell down a waterfall and crashed into a shitload of trees too.

#32 Edited by Lagaroth (170 posts) -

1. My problem with Tomb Raider is that the moans so more like a bad porno than someone in pain to me. Plus the rape QTE that isn't a rape QTE (What the hell is going on with that?) I don't know how it is incorporated but I don't want to do any rape-defense QTEs, regardless of the gender of the attacker or victim.

2. My problem with the Hitman trailer is the costumes. Put them in clothing that makes even a tiny bit of sense and I wouldn't mind it. The trailer would still be bad in my mind, because it is not any gameplay footage, it doesn't serve to introduce the characters or world, and at this point slow-mo needs to go away. But it wouldn't be offense to me. No, putting people in fetish clothing does not make me want to buy your game Square Enix.

3. I don't have a problem with cosplayers, but I think it is stupid that companies pay people to put on skimpy clothes and take photos with people. Most of the women seem to know and care nothing about gaming, E3, or even the tech industry. If they are involved, knowledgeable, or have an interest in the industry I don't mind. (Though the outfits are still stupid.)

Edit: To clarify on the cosplay thing, the outfits are stupid when they are based on characters who are made for sex appeal (Lollipop Chainsaw), if the character isn't blatant 'Look tits!' then I don't mind them.

#33 Edited by RIDEBIRD (1232 posts) -

1. Because the producer said we're supposed to feel like we have to protect her, implying she can't take care of herself, meaning that we, the male gamers, want to care for her. No one would ever say that about Nathan Drake, because he as well as Lara are fucking invincible action heros. Why the fuck would I want to protect her? She isn't some fragile child, she's a goddamn hero. About the moaning, I dunno, it's probably because she sounds like she's getting fucked rather then getting fucked up. She doesn't sound as she's in pain.

2.Because they were sexy nurses in leather underwear that revealed everything. Why where they wearing that? I simple do not understand. It serves no purpose and looked very uncomfortable for murdering people.

3. Because booth babes destroy it for everyone. They objectify women that just stand there simple for the male viewers viewing pleasure, and have no other value. They are tits on legs that are supposed to make me salivate and make me interested in a product. I find that offensive to my intellect. I love titties, really, I do, but I don't need to see titties next to a game to make it interesting. I lose interest, rather, since I don't like to be associated with fawning virign neckbeards who hoverhand said objects. I find it very creepy and disturbing and I don't like having women put on display for me like that. It's highly unconformtable and weird.

4. She has lovely tits, and apparently likes vidya games, it's just blatantly obvious she has no meaning for the game's producers other then to attract dudes with her tits. She's a glorfied boothbabe who plays videogames and goddamnit no I can't take her seriously as a spokesperson or whatever because her tits are seriously hanging all the way out. They are there, screaming, LOOK AT ME AND MAYBE BUY THIS DUNNO

I really hope it doesn't blow over, as this industry is sick. It has been forever. It's incredibly sexist to the extent that women are actively avoiding due to the fact that they are ALWAYS, seriously, EVERY GODDAMN TIME, sexualized as objects. They are never viewed based on their actions/words/awesomeness, they are ALWAYS commented on from a superficial perspective. Watch anything on youtube ever or watch any comments on anything ever involving Jade Raymond, Leigh Alexander, Jennifer Hepler or anyone else and it's seriously every goddamn time OH MA GAWD THEM TITTAYS AND SHE LIKES VIDYA GAMES 2/LOL YUCK NO FAT CHIX LOL MLG 420 DAWG. I don't mean to say that thinking/feeling someone is attractive is wrong because they are in their work role, I think Leigh is especially hot, it's just that you don't have to comment on that. You can keep it to yourself and actually listen to what the person is saying and comment on that.

I can't take it anymore. I just simply want gaming to be more than this an something actually mature with good values where both sexes are respected. It simply isn't like that today, and the sooner people stop living in their fantasy bubble the better. This debate needs to rage on and hopefully change some perspectives.

#34 Posted by Dagbiker (6957 posts) -

I like how all the Female posters on this board aren't having nearly as bad a reaction to this stuff as the Male posters. I think its interesting.

#35 Posted by Commisar123 (1790 posts) -

So you don't actually know what the issue with Tomb Raider was, it wasn't the noises it was the comments made by the producer concerning a rape scene and the decision to make players "want to protect Laura". Also the nuns are a problem because they are juvenile and misogynistic, and finally boot babes are a problem because they are a potent example of the sexism that permeates the game industry right now. So look if you don't care that's one thing, but you can't say they aren't important or significant, because they are.

#36 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

So I looked for that Nigri chick on Youtube after reading this blog and she's pretty hot. I love how interviewers are melting over her tits and she's like "score! again!"

#37 Posted by RIDEBIRD (1232 posts) -

Regarding male characters being sexualized and shit by the way, I don't get that at all. What we usually play are ubermuscly dudes that are pumped way the fuck up in body armor. That is EXACTLY the person I can imagine murdering thousands of people and living to tell about it. Not me, a slightly overweight gamerdude with no musculls. Besides, there are tons of vulnerable male characters that aren't super duper pumped - Max Payne and Isaac in DS comes to mind.

That's why I don't mind, and the problem is that females never get body armor. It's implied that tits are bulletproof or something and I don't buy that shit.

#38 Posted by mscupcakes (612 posts) -

@Commisar123: I didn't actually see any of that footage, would you be able to link me to it? I can only find the gameplay I've already seen.

#39 Posted by Carryboy (640 posts) -

@Dylabaloo said:

I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.

#40 Posted by tourgen (4458 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

You need to remember where all of this angst is generally coming from - the Bay Area. California is, let's say, a dream-like world where people have unreasonable expectations, to say the least.

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

I think you might be on to something.

#41 Posted by Strife777 (1511 posts) -
@RIDEBIRD I hope you realize how contradictory your post is (the first one in particular).
#42 Posted by Commisar123 (1790 posts) -

@mscupcakes:

There is no gameplay it is only an interview

#43 Posted by NMC2008 (1237 posts) -

I can't wait for Tomb Raider, it looks rad as hell, so does Splinter Cell Blacklist.

#44 Posted by Dagbiker (6957 posts) -

@NMC2008 said:

I can't wait for Tomb Raider, it looks rad as hell, so does Splinter Cell Blacklist.

I agree with you on Tomb Raider, but Im not a Splinter Cell guy.

#45 Edited by Bocam (3705 posts) -
#46 Posted by mscupcakes (612 posts) -

@NMC2008: The should replace Sam Fisher with Samantha Fisher, then things would start to get real.

#47 Posted by NMC2008 (1237 posts) -

@mscupcakes:

Nah, that wouldn't make sense in the story arch(unless his daughter Sarah became an agent in the future), they should probably make a sequel to Velvet Assassin or Stolen instead.

#48 Posted by Jimbo (9796 posts) -
@OllyOxenFree said:
@Stete said:

Why? Because nothing generates attention and page views than a little bit of short sighted controversy.

That's the one movie where a dude anally rapes a woman, right? ART!!!
It's down to context like pretty much everything else. How something is presented (is it trying to discomfort or titillate the viewer?), how it contributes to the whole (are they going somewhere with it, or is it there for its own sake?) and if the whole is worthwhile (does the end justify the means?).  It's not that rape (or threat of) is off-limits in art - it's that if you are gonna use it, you'd better take it seriously and make damn sure you get it right.
 
Tomb Raider might even pull it off in the game itself, but they haven't done themselves any favours.  They had next to no chance with how the presentation was perceived because -even though it's a reboot- it's still Lara Croft, whose character bio to date amounts to 'Walking tits'.  It's probably not a scene which should be leveraged for marketing (because it removes it from the wider context), and the Exec Producer destroyed any credibility 'the whole' might have had when he patronisingly stated that you are "kind of like her helper".
#49 Posted by jakob187 (21662 posts) -

Topic of the week will only last a week.

#50 Posted by Phatmac (5724 posts) -

Can we talk about other stuff please? Like sandwiches?