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spazm6666

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Am I getting soft? Or Old?

So I was finishing up my playthrough of BulletStorm on Very Hard ( achievement whore what?) and hit a snag pretty close to the end of the game where it took me probably 15 to twenty tries to get past a certain checkpoint (the one in Ch6 or 7 I believe with 1 room, 4 mini bosses and a ton of of flare guys). All the retries didn't bother me so much as I wasn't playing carefully my first several attempts but I started to feel irritated that the game hit me with a challenge so out of place. I wondered why make the game hard.
 
Up to this point the game had been a complete joke, seldom requiring much effort and the hard area WAS out of place but... To think that was hard when I had a checkpoint RIGHT there to keep restarting the area was pretty silly. Certainly not complaint worthy. Hard was no checkpoints, no quick saves. Hard is Demons Souls. Hard is Mega Man 9. Hard is Super Meat boy.
 
So am I getting old? time is certainly more of an issue for me as I am married with a new baby boy.
 
Am I getting soft with all the gifts most of todays games offer us? Probably a little. I have been playing video games since Donkey Kong first came out as an arcade game. Things have changed a LOT.
 
But hey, the more I keep playing and trying new games the more I can continue to look at what I play, how I play and keep looking to the game industry for a career someday.

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spazm6666

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Edited By spazm6666

So I was finishing up my playthrough of BulletStorm on Very Hard ( achievement whore what?) and hit a snag pretty close to the end of the game where it took me probably 15 to twenty tries to get past a certain checkpoint (the one in Ch6 or 7 I believe with 1 room, 4 mini bosses and a ton of of flare guys). All the retries didn't bother me so much as I wasn't playing carefully my first several attempts but I started to feel irritated that the game hit me with a challenge so out of place. I wondered why make the game hard.
 
Up to this point the game had been a complete joke, seldom requiring much effort and the hard area WAS out of place but... To think that was hard when I had a checkpoint RIGHT there to keep restarting the area was pretty silly. Certainly not complaint worthy. Hard was no checkpoints, no quick saves. Hard is Demons Souls. Hard is Mega Man 9. Hard is Super Meat boy.
 
So am I getting old? time is certainly more of an issue for me as I am married with a new baby boy.
 
Am I getting soft with all the gifts most of todays games offer us? Probably a little. I have been playing video games since Donkey Kong first came out as an arcade game. Things have changed a LOT.
 
But hey, the more I keep playing and trying new games the more I can continue to look at what I play, how I play and keep looking to the game industry for a career someday.

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MudMan

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Edited By MudMan

That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games. 
 
I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away. 
 
I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries. 
 
Different things altogether.

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Oldirtybearon

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Edited By Oldirtybearon
@NoelVeiga: Never thought your point in that context, but it does make a hell of a lot of sense. 
 
I imagine the stuff we consider "old school" like Devil May Cry 3 would've never had a chance in the old days.
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l4wd0g

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Edited By l4wd0g
@NoelVeiga said:
" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games.  I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away.  I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries.  Different things altogether. "
What? Have you played Zelda 2? Castlevania? TMNT Sure, it's easy now with the internet, but not when they first released. 
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Oldirtybearon

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Edited By Oldirtybearon
@l4wd0g said:
" @NoelVeiga said:
" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games.  I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away.  I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries.  Different things altogether. "
What? Have you played Zelda 2? Castlevania? TMNT Sure, it's easy now with the internet, but not when they first released.  "
That's kind of the point, though. With modern features like checkpointing and saved games, those titles are no longer difficult to play, merely cumbersome.
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SSully

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Edited By SSully
@KingWilly said:
" @l4wd0g said:
" @NoelVeiga said:
" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games.  I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away.  I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries.  Different things altogether. "
What? Have you played Zelda 2? Castlevania? TMNT Sure, it's easy now with the internet, but not when they first released.  "
That's kind of the point, though. With modern features like checkpointing and saved games, those titles are no longer difficult to play, merely cumbersome. "
Hit the nail on the head.  
 
On topic: I dont think it is because you are getting old. Maybe it is lack of patience? I know when I am busy I barley play games, and when I do I prefer simply games that give me quick satisfaction. When I am busy it is usually because I am swamped with school, so when I play a game I dont want to play challenging games or anything that will really give me a challenge mentally because my mind is looking for a break, not more work. So maybe it is the same with you except instead of being swamped with school you are dealing with your family and work. 
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MudMan

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Edited By MudMan
@l4wd0g said:

" @NoelVeiga said:

" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games.  I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away.  I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries.  Different things altogether. "
What? Have you played Zelda 2? Castlevania? TMNT Sure, it's easy now with the internet, but not when they first released.  "
Just for a frame of reference, tell me what seems harder to pull off, this: 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j03DVgCTLQs  
 
or this: 
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5mMWzhlHeU&feature=related 
 
In Castlevania there is one hard jump at about 1:10 and it's there to glitch out the game and take a shortcut. If SMB was a single continuous path of non-checkpointed platforming like Castlevania is, it would be downright impossible to manage. That's the difference between hard and unforgiving. Hard is about pulling off something that requires tons of dexterity or skill, unforgiving is about pulling off that requires lots of memorization and focus to do in a single try. It's not the same. 
 
Games these days aren't easy, they are just forgiving with failure. They will let you try again really quick, like SMB. Older games were generally easier (we didn't have the framerate or the high end analogue controllers or the amount of content to make them in any other way) but they were less forgiving and encouraged repetition and memorization more to pull them off in a single, continuous run.  
 
And yeah, I played all of those. I was there. I saw this happen. 
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spazm6666

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Edited By spazm6666
@SSully said:
" @KingWilly said:
" @l4wd0g said:
" @NoelVeiga said:
" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games.  I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away.  I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries.  Different things altogether. "
What? Have you played Zelda 2? Castlevania? TMNT Sure, it's easy now with the internet, but not when they first released.  "
That's kind of the point, though. With modern features like checkpointing and saved games, those titles are no longer difficult to play, merely cumbersome. "
Hit the nail on the head.   On topic: I dont think it is because you are getting old. Maybe it is lack of patience? I know when I am busy I barley play games, and when I do I prefer simply games that give me quick satisfaction. When I am busy it is usually because I am swamped with school, so when I play a game I dont want to play challenging games or anything that will really give me a challenge mentally because my mind is looking for a break, not more work. So maybe it is the same with you except instead of being swamped with school you are dealing with your family and work.  "
@SSully I think you are dead on here. And I think it comes back to time. I have way more hobbies than I ever did when I was young due to larger circle of friends and access to funds to have those hobbies. I have too many game systems and too many games to play on all of those systems. So if a game hangs me up I have little patience for it. But if it doesn't hang me up then where is the challenge? the worst part of the new family is that my preferred games are MMO's, RPGs and Racing games. Wrong genres..... whoops.
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spazm6666

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Edited By spazm6666
@NoelVeiga said:
" @l4wd0g said:

" @NoelVeiga said:

" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games.  I've had this argument so many times. Older games were typically very easy, they just would make you replay tons of easy parts before you got to the really hard bit that kept stumping you. These days games are actually harder, it's just that, being also longer, they are less afraid of letting you retry the hard bit right away.  I am pretty sure there weren't that many, if any, games that were even close to how hard Super Meat Boy is pre-2000. Demon's Souls is closer to old timey hard in that it's not really mechanically hard at all, it's just unforgiving with retries.  Different things altogether. "
What? Have you played Zelda 2? Castlevania? TMNT Sure, it's easy now with the internet, but not when they first released.  "
Just for a frame of reference, tell me what seems harder to pull off, this: 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j03DVgCTLQs  
 
or this: 
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5mMWzhlHeU&feature=related  In Castlevania there is one hard jump at about 1:10 and it's there to glitch out the game and take a shortcut. If SMB was a single continuous path of non-checkpointed platforming like Castlevania is, it would be downright impossible to manage. That's the difference between hard and unforgiving. Hard is about pulling off something that requires tons of dexterity or skill, unforgiving is about pulling off that requires lots of memorization and focus to do in a single try. It's not the same.  Games these days aren't easy, they are just forgiving with failure. They will let you try again really quick, like SMB. Older games were generally easier (we didn't have the framerate or the high end analogue controllers or the amount of content to make them in any other way) but they were less forgiving and encouraged repetition and memorization more to pull them off in a single, continuous run.   And yeah, I played all of those. I was there. I saw this happen.  "
And that's why I got up to Hell but despite chasing achievements when they are within reason I stopped. No ty. But yes as was stated in another response, the internet and access to youtube and other tricks puts those older games in perspective. They were hard because they were new. The ideas were fresh, the challenges were ones we had never seen. The mechanics just had not been done before. Now the games have so much competition that to present a challenge requires out and out crazy to make it a challenge. How about some Ninja Gaiden Black and Sigme.. SHUDDER. I played the first reboot on PS3 but I wouldn't go near 2 and the next installment scares me just as much. Yet Dark Souls is on my buy list launch day!!!!!
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Example1013

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@spazm6666: To answer your question, both.
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spazm6666

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Edited By spazm6666
@example1013:  touche? though you are probably right. :)
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Id say ive played more games that were very difficult back in the day than I have now. IMO id say that most of the reason is that now with the industry as big as it is, developers don't want to alienate any prospective buyer by making a game "too hard". They all have difficulty setting nowadays and generally that's a great thing but it also feels that developers don't put the effort in to make games harder in the right way. An example would be just making the enemies spot you straight away, increased damage from them, infinite spawning and grenade spamming instead of working on better AI (no names but you know who you are). This doesn't make a hard game, it makes a cheap game. I think because of this id have to side that a larger percentage of games from 80s and 90s were harder than today. Of course increase in age could also be a contributing factor.

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There are hard parts in every game and no matter how hard you try you might need to reload.
In New Vegas you can be level 30 but a deathclaw can still own your ass.

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@NoelVeiga said:
" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games. "

I'd have thought the complete opposite to be honest.


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@Jasta said:
" @NoelVeiga said:
" That's because modern games are so much, much harder than older games. "

I'd have thought the complete opposite to be honest.


"
As would I.
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@NoelVeiga said:
" In Castlevania there is one hard jump at about 1:10 and it's there to glitch out the game and take a shortcut. If SMB was a single continuous path of non-checkpointed platforming like Castlevania is, it would be downright impossible to manage. That's the difference between hard and unforgiving. Hard is about pulling off something that requires tons of dexterity or skill, unforgiving is about pulling off that requires lots of memorization and focus to do in a single try. It's not the same.  Games these days aren't easy, they are just forgiving with failure. They will let you try again really quick, like SMB. Older games were generally easier (we didn't have the framerate or the high end analogue controllers or the amount of content to make them in any other way) but they were less forgiving and encouraged repetition and memorization more to pull them off in a single, continuous run. "
There isn't a difference between hard and unforgiving. Consider how this sounds:

"Running a marathon is easy. It's just unforgiving because there you don't get a checkpoint where you can restart after every step."

"Climbing a mountain with no safety gear is easy. It's just unforgiving because you don't get a checkpoint where you can restart after every meter."

"Beating a martial arts champion is easy. It's just unforgiving because you don't get a checkpoint where you can restart before every attack." 
 
Also: modern games would be much, much harder if they didn't have any checkpoints, but that's the thing: they would be. They aren't as it is. And even that "would be" is almost always because of the length. If for example Gears of War was as short as, say, Metal Slug, it would be way easier even without checkpoints (hell, you could remove Gears' checkpoints and add some to Metal Slug, and the latter would still be way harder) simply because there are tons of part in Metal Slug that are considerably harder than anything in Gears.
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spazm6666

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Edited By spazm6666

Some things occurred to me reading all of these replies. The length of the games and the development cycles plus the platforms/hardware we play them on. 
 
I think overall most modern games are technically harder because they require more overall dexterity. We are now faced with 8 buttons, up from 1 at Atari time. We have two analog sticks plus a d pad, up from 1 lone digital 8 way stick. That in and of itself makes the game inherently more challenging even if it is marginal.
 
Second in terms of Development cycles, games are not created in 6 months to a year on average. And teams are huge. There are full art teams on many games larger than the entire programming team of some popular NES games. So the games have to pace the players and have to cover all bases. So you have Bulletstorm on Very Easy which I have been using to clean up some missing achievements. I can take three sniper shots without even considering myself in trouble. But this may still be a challenge for some gamers. On hard (as was mentioned above as a general rule) the snipers are all but a one shot death. So any hit means instantly taking cover and praying. My point is that the games have to have some challenge to make sure the consumer "validates the purchase" and probably for the devs to feel like their time was well spent. Spending three yrs (or 60$) on a game that is routinely beaten in one sitting would be a difficult pill to swallow for either side. And when maybe of us that play a lot of games find those 'easy' ones we let the devs know.
 
That said, this is why we have Facebook games, Zynga, Angry Birds. Easy to play. Short. Forgiving. Simple. But still fun in the right time and place.

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InternetCrab

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Both ??

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Example1013

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@spazm6666: Don't worry, I've always been a softy. So at least you've had those years of being a hard guy. 
 
Wow, that sounds really dirty.