Giant Bombcast Giant Bomb's GOTY 2011 Deliberations: Day Five

@zoner said:

@billyhoush said:

I really wished Ryan played Skyrim. How can you have a say for GOTY when you haven't played one of the major contenders? SR3 probably would've won.

You mean like The Witcher 2 which only Vinny finished? Or Deus Ex which only Patrick and Jeff played? OR do we have to make special exceptions for Skyrim?

The difference being that most everyone bowed out of the decisions for the lesser played games. Ryan decided against his personal #1 for a game he didn't play. He essentially made a decision based on hype and anticipation. That is unfortunate. He shouldn't have voiced an opinion, at the very least, but in the end the person with the least experience with the winning game decided the GOTY.

@Supercancer said:

Don't know why I decided to go to www.giantasshole.com, but I really like where it redirects to.

Wow, whoever did that is awesome.

@SpartyOn said:

@WilliamHenry said:

@93The_Ace said:

I don't have a problem with Skyrim winning GOTY, and I don't have a problem with Brad defending it. However; I have a problem with the way Brad defended Skyrim. You can say that Saints Row is just another gangster-openworld game, but I have a problem with anyone making the argument that Skyrim is one of a kind and there is nothing else like it. I think Oblivion is to Skyrim as SR2 is to SR3. Skyrim is not wholely new and unique as Brad seemed to be saying.

Also, the argument that the combat in Saints Row is "shitty" until you upgrade your character is flawed. I could say the exact same for Skyrim. I wouldn't want to play Skyrim for the whole game as my character is when I first start.

Again, I don't have a problem with Brad making his case for Skyrim, and it ultimately winning. Though, I do have a problem with his arguments. What I find strange is that Ryan voted for a game he didn't even play, rather than the game he lofted as his game of the year.

Exactly how I feel. Every critique Brad had for SR could be applied to Skyrim. He never made one compelling argument why Skyrim is the better game. It just seems like he was willing to argue longer than Jeff was. Jeff never conceited to Skyrim being better, he was just tired of debating it. Also totally agree that it was strange for Ryan to side with Skyrim without playing it. How can someone make a decision like that without playing the game, especially when he had SR as #1 on his list?

I think Brad was referring to the Elder Scrolls games as being a unique experience, and Skyrim being the most successful attempt among them. As of now no game with the scope, breadth, and immersion of Skyrim really exists in another game. Saint's Row 3 on the other hand....it's an open world 3rd person shooter...done. That game-type exists elsewhere. It's incredibly similar to any other 3rd person open world game. The unique quality is it's character, which it excels in.

On your other point, about the upgrading...I think again, Brad was correct. The shooting in Saint's Row is innaccurate and the enemies soak bullets. Not only that but the Aim Down Sights is awful and almost non-existent, and you aren't able to ACTUALLY TAKE COVER, like even GTA IV from YEARS ago allowed you to do. These issues are less apparent once you blow everybody up in one hit and never have to reload.

Honestly this entire podcast, although incredibly entertaining, was ridiculous at points. Saint's Row is a very very fun, and well-made game for what it is. I feel like a bunch of the people on this site love SR3 because Jeff and the rest of the guys do. Don't get me wrong, it's my #5 game of the year, but it is not the best. Everybody here is quick to jump on Brad's arguments, which were far more valid than any of the contradictions I've read here, yet fail to attack the arguments presented by the other guys. Vinny is my favorite guy on this site, yet his argument against Skyrim was awful. He said he could only recommend Skyrim with qualifications, yet could recommend SR3 universally. Really? So...If I hate toilet humor and nonsensical stories I'll love SR3 right? I've never had a problem with this site, and I still don't, but the overstating being done on the quality of SR3 is frustrating....seriously it's a lot of fun and it's very funny....but I could WATCH the cut-scenes from SR3 and be satisfied. I want to play Portal 2, Skyrim, Dark Souls (I don't know why, but I love that damn game, Uncharted 3, etc.

Don't get me wrong Duders, loved the fearure, and agree that all of the games you discussed are awesome...I just don't agree with how you got there. Just kind of seems like they fought for SR3 the most because hey, wouldn't it be nuts if SR3 won Game of the Year? That said great games all, looking forward to 2012.

I definitely agree with this post. Saints Row is incredibly fun, but its gameplay is still fundamentally the same as past games and its best feature - its story and humour - are to a degree heavily subjective. Jeff's tastes happen to match up very well with that game, which I feel is why he loves it so much, but it's hard to justify why it's so good aside from that stuff.

Looking back on it, I do think that Bastion, Portal 2 and Dead Space 2 should really have been discussed more. I mean, Dead Space 2 only appeared on one, or two lists at most, and yet creped all the way up to number five somehow. Portal 2 also got some unfair dredging for its awesome co-op - come on guys, it's fun working out the puzzles and what other game has co-op anything like this?

I like Brad, but I think they made the wrong decision. Saints Row 3 is Giant bomb! I was surprised that Jeff didn't bring up that Skyrim's combat is dull more often and I definitely agree that in all my time playing Skyrim not one quest has topped Oblivion's dark brotherhood line, and in the case of Skyrim's Dark brotherhood line I felt the combat and game mechanics made the mission's less enjoyable. Having me kill some and then pay a bounty or trying to cheese the game and find an alley that the A.I walks into where there are no guards nearby; unlike Oblivion's dark brotherhood mission's which were fun. Video games are supposed to be about fun; Saints Row is fun.

@EnduranceFun said:

Portal 2 also got some unfair dredging for its awesome co-op - come on guys, it's fun working out the puzzles and what other game has co-op anything like this?

The massive amount of loading really took a lot of the fun out of Portal 2 co-op for my co-op partner and myself. I'm sure both of us being fairly good at spacial reasoning attributed to the low gameplay vs loading ratio we had, but dear god does portal 2 load often for quite long periods. Every other AAA developer has figured out streaming; why can't Valve? It was also a problem in the single-player campaign, but less of one because the levels were longer. It seemed like every scripted, intense "run for your life" type moment was also interrupted by loading.

The other issue I have with Portal 2 was that they inherently changed the nature of the portals. In the original you could put portals on nearly any flat, uninterrupted surface. In Portal 2 the portals can only be placed on a few spots in each level and it lead to very easy puzzles because you know the answer includes a few certain spots and all that's left is to figure out the order. That also takes all the creativity out of coming up with a solution.

Personally, portal 2 missed my top 10 list by a hair. I think it's a bit overrated.

@Dylabaloo said:

I like Brad, but I think they made the wrong decision. Saints Row 3 is Giant bomb! I was surprised that Jeff didn't bring up that Skyrim's combat is dull more often and I definitely agree that in all my time playing Skyrim not one quest has topped Oblivion's dark brotherhood line, and in the case of Skyrim's Dark brotherhood line I felt the combat and game mechanics made the mission's less enjoyable. Having me kill some and then pay a bounty or trying to cheese the game and find an alley that the A.I walks into where there are no guards nearby; unlike Oblivion's dark brotherhood mission's which were fun. Video games are supposed to be about fun; Saints Row is fun.

Skyrim is fun. Skyrim grabbed ahold of me instantly, kept me enthralled for >150 hours, forced me to buy the Xbox 360 version once my PS3 save file stopped being playable, but I'm still waiting for SR3 to hit me the way it hit the giantbomb crew. Different strokes, eh? Bottom line, we're all splitting hairs; from all accounts, both games are great and are showing up on many GOTY lists for gaming sites. The only real tragedy here is - from what I could glean from the podcast - is how the number one game was chosen. I just have to wonder if fatigue played a large role in the final decision.

Saints Row got robbed. I don't even like open world games, but I had so much fun and am still playing it.

@DedBeet said:

@Dylabaloo said:

I like Brad, but I think they made the wrong decision. Saints Row 3 is Giant bomb! I was surprised that Jeff didn't bring up that Skyrim's combat is dull more often and I definitely agree that in all my time playing Skyrim not one quest has topped Oblivion's dark brotherhood line, and in the case of Skyrim's Dark brotherhood line I felt the combat and game mechanics made the mission's less enjoyable. Having me kill some and then pay a bounty or trying to cheese the game and find an alley that the A.I walks into where there are no guards nearby; unlike Oblivion's dark brotherhood mission's which were fun. Video games are supposed to be about fun; Saints Row is fun.

Skyrim is fun. Skyrim grabbed ahold of me instantly, kept me enthralled for >150 hours, forced me to buy the Xbox 360 version once my PS3 save file stopped being playable, but I'm still waiting for SR3 to hit me the way it hit the giantbomb crew. Different strokes, eh? Bottom line, we're all splitting hairs; from all accounts, both games are great and are showing up on many GOTY lists for gaming sites. The only real tragedy here is - from what I could glean from the podcast - is how the number one game was chosen. I just have to wonder if fatigue played a large role in the final decision.

Agreed, it seemed they agreed just to get it over with. Especially in Ryan's case where Saints Row was the number 1 game on his personal list. I don't fault Brad or Kelptok for defending what they thought was the best game but not trying at all, was a bit disappointing. But, video games. And video games are awesome and there were a lot of awesome games this year!

@DedBeet said:

@ItsAJackal said:

This podcast made me realize I'm not a fan of Brad.

I had a similar reaction with last years GOTY deliberations when he filibustered for Minerva's Den to win DLC of the year. Eventually, I got over it :).

Minerva's Den is actually pretty exceptional, though. It's just kind of sad that it was Brad who stumbled upon it because the man has some serious security issues about being right, hence this years confusing state of lists.

Has Brad ever defended a game he didn't review/play first? Professionalism much?

Patrick you have earned my respect.

Where did Jeff get the idea that the bosses change the spell they use based on how you build your character in Skyrim? Or even that "all the dungeons have a boss at the end that shoots ice"? Or that you get all frost dragons if you have a sword and shield. It's just not true.

I've played through three times. Once as a pure mage, once as a thief, lastly as a sword and shield warrior. I've seen a mix of all dragons with each character. I've seen a mix of different spells from enemies all throughout.

Hell, even the idea all dungeons have a big wizard at the end is false. You've got dwemer constructs and undead necromancer queens and vampires and any of a hundred monster and bandit chieftains and and and....

Man, all the arguments made against Saints Row 3 seem to apply to Skyrim, too.

Patrick said that they just had to come up with a bunch of shit to fill their open world, in SR3. That describes pretty much all the content I played (I put in ~100 hours) in Skyrim.

Brad said SR3 was just "another open world game". Skyrim is just another wide-berth fantasy game.

I really enjoyed Skyrim, but I don't get all the pre- and post-release hype. I put in triple digit hours, and it was just another generic fantasy world with generic "go here, do that, talk to this guy, rinse, repeat" quests. That can be said about a lot of games, but my point is that everyone acts like Skyrim DOESN'T do that, when it's totally the same. Even the main storylines, everything non-miscellaneous, were predictable,pretty boring, and ultimately unsatisfying, in my opinion.

Both of these games aren't even in my personal top 15 or so, but I think Skyrim beats out SR3 in the end. Patrick was right about it having a ton of scope and ambition, like Brad said more so to it's predecessor than Saints Row 3 was to its own.

It's fun to listen to these deliberations, knowing all five guys love both games, but sounding like they absolutely fucking HATE one or the other. :P

@sofacitysweetheart said:

@DedBeet said:

@ItsAJackal said:

This podcast made me realize I'm not a fan of Brad.

I had a similar reaction with last years GOTY deliberations when he filibustered for Minerva's Den to win DLC of the year. Eventually, I got over it :).

Minerva's Den is actually pretty exceptional, though. It's just kind of sad that it was Brad who stumbled upon it because the man has some serious security issues about being right, hence this years confusing state of lists.

Has Brad ever defended a game he didn't review/play first? Professionalism much?

I should have clarified that my problem wasn't with Minerva winning but with Brad's bulldog determinedness in defending it. Made the podcast a little...uncomfortable to listen to.

@thebigJ_A said:

Where did Jeff get the idea that the bosses change the spell they use based on how you build your character in Skyrim? Or even that "all the dungeons have a boss at the end that shoots ice"? Or that you get all frost dragons if you have a sword and shield. It's just not true.

I've played through three times. Once as a pure mage, once as a thief, lastly as a sword and shield warrior. I've seen a mix of all dragons with each character. I've seen a mix of different spells from enemies all throughout.

Hell, even the idea all dungeons have a big wizard at the end is false. You've got dwemer constructs and undead necromancer queens and vampires and any of a hundred monster and bandit chieftains and and and....

Yeah, I wondered about that myself. I certainly ran into a lot of "ice" guys but the bosses were varied quite a bit.

I have to say it again, FUCK RAYMAN! Brad FTW, If Jeff hates so much on Dark Souls I'm glad SR3 got screwed. I think Brad didn't make enough of a compelling point to what Jeff was saying about Skyrim. I don't think this game revolutionized how RPG's or those types of games are made because nobody does them really. However this was suppose to be GB's game not brad's and it sounded like none of them wanted a piece of that argument.

@thebigJ_A said:

Where did Jeff get the idea that the bosses change the spell they use based on how you build your character in Skyrim? Or even that "all the dungeons have a boss at the end that shoots ice"? Or that you get all frost dragons if you have a sword and shield. It's just not true.

I've played through three times. Once as a pure mage, once as a thief, lastly as a sword and shield warrior. I've seen a mix of all dragons with each character. I've seen a mix of different spells from enemies all throughout.

Hell, even the idea all dungeons have a big wizard at the end is false. You've got dwemer constructs and undead necromancer queens and vampires and any of a hundred monster and bandit chieftains and and and....

Agreed. His description did not match my experience in the slightest.

ALWAYS REP QUEENS, ALEX!

Brad ruins another category, this time far more significant than last year. Way to endorse a game that is without exaggeration broken on one of the three platforms it is out for.

Beggin' for someone to replace him by next year.

Whoever makes those super annoying air breathing sounds deserves to get cut.

@KaneRobot: Did you not hear the part were they said that they were just talking about the 360 and PC versions?

Also all the people calling Brad a cunt need to take a long hard look at themselfs....

@thebigJ_A said:

Where did Jeff get the idea that the bosses change the spell they use based on how you build your character in Skyrim? Or even that "all the dungeons have a boss at the end that shoots ice"? Or that you get all frost dragons if you have a sword and shield. It's just not true.

I've played through three times. Once as a pure mage, once as a thief, lastly as a sword and shield warrior. I've seen a mix of all dragons with each character. I've seen a mix of different spells from enemies all throughout.

Hell, even the idea all dungeons have a big wizard at the end is false. You've got dwemer constructs and undead necromancer queens and vampires and any of a hundred monster and bandit chieftains and and and....

Agreed. His description did not match my experience in the slightest.

Where did Jeff get the idea that the bosses change the spell they use based on how you build your character in Skyrim? Or even that "all the dungeons have a boss at the end that shoots ice"? Or that you get all frost dragons if you have a sword and shield. It's just not true.

I've played through three times. Once as a pure mage, once as a thief, lastly as a sword and shield warrior. I've seen a mix of all dragons with each character. I've seen a mix of different spells from enemies all throughout.

Hell, even the idea all dungeons have a big wizard at the end is false. You've got dwemer constructs and undead necromancer queens and vampires and any of a hundred monster and bandit chieftains and and and....

@zemorg said:

admired you culling Uncharted 3 when you did. (Clearly you're on a different payroll to gametrailers.com - haha).

Go...away. Waving your fanboy flag won't get you very far with the Giant Bomb community.

I finally listened to it all and it wasn't nearly as bad as people said it was. Internet comments, never to be taken seriously.

Ohhhh man the Jeff vs brad for goty was funnier than the whole brad vs vinny for the bioshock DLC vs the mass effect DLC. Fucking awesome podcasting duders :)

Will there be a regular BombCast today?

@MrKlorox: yep

The Deus Ex talk breaks my heart a bit. Especially LA Noire left such a bad taste in my mouth.

@Marokai said:

@cthomer5000 said:

@thebigJ_A said:

Where did Jeff get the idea that the bosses change the spell they use based on how you build your character in Skyrim? Or even that "all the dungeons have a boss at the end that shoots ice"? Or that you get all frost dragons if you have a sword and shield. It's just not true.

I've played through three times. Once as a pure mage, once as a thief, lastly as a sword and shield warrior. I've seen a mix of all dragons with each character. I've seen a mix of different spells from enemies all throughout.

Hell, even the idea all dungeons have a big wizard at the end is false. You've got dwemer constructs and undead necromancer queens and vampires and any of a hundred monster and bandit chieftains and and and....

Agreed. His description did not match my experience in the slightest.

Nor mine.

I'm +1 on this. However, I didn't completely agree with Brad and Patrick about all they said about Skyrim either.. to each his own, I suppose.

@KaneRobot said:

Brad ruins another category, this time far more significant than last year. Way to endorse a game that is without exaggeration broken on one of the three platforms it is out for.

Beggin' for someone to replace him by next year.

I don't know, seems at least among the GB crew he was generally vindicated on his support of Minerva's den vs Shadow Broker.

@depecheload: I've been playing Skyrim on PS3 since day one and have not been impeded one bit. It's crashed only twice in almost 60 hours of play. Occasionally it gets slow but overall it works just fine.

I thought the discussion of Saints Row the Third vs Skyrim was pretty bad.

"Saints Row is comprised of tonnes of filler!"

"Skyrim is totally unique!"

"Saints Row combat is shit"

I can't believe this kind of thoughts since they can be applied to either game.

@MrKlorox: yep

@AMonkey: It's sorta what happens. The Bombcast crew definitely goes out of their way to say this is a debate between some of the best games of the year and so the debate has to be nitpicky. Combined with the deathmarch they decide to do to come to the final battles I can understand their arguments being lacking by that point. Heck, I'm surprised it doesn't end in violence given 10 hours of on air debate following however much prep they do.

Wow, okay so I don't know if somebody has already mentioned this, but from reading through the comments it doesn't look like it. They explicitly stated during the debate that if Skyrim won, it was for the xbox 360 and PC versions - which are great - not the ps3 version - which isn't.

They didn't ignore all the issues on the ps3, they disqualified it, but the xbox 360 and pc versions were so good in their opinion that it was the best of the year.

And to all the people complaining that they must be lying when they said they haven't run into any problems, I'm 30+ hours into the 360 version and, except falling through the floor once, have never seen even a hint of a glitch.

@MrKlorox: yep

Loved this years awardcasts. I think last years topped it, but still great. A couple things.

1) Klepek needs to stop stuttering and get to the fucking point. Good lord does he ramble!

2) I wish Brad won out on the Batman argument. I totally agree with his opinion, despite his poor way of expressing it.

3) I felt a lot of the arguments were pure bitchfest this year. Skyrim vs Saint's Row 3 was pretty bad.

@russalatham said:

@depecheload: I've been playing Skyrim on PS3 since day one and have not been impeded one bit. It's crashed only twice in almost 60 hours of play. Occasionally it gets slow but overall it works just fine.

Yeah, it gets slow on the PC as well, usually in dungeons, small areas where it shouldn't slow down at all, but does, but overall perfectly playable. I think it was poor form to call out the PS3 version specifically when all 3 platforms have had their share of problems with the game. Either it's GotY or it's not. Where's the other 1/3rd of the GotY?

I've spent 12 hours with skyrim so far on PC and the only glitch I came across was pretty common in open world games where I jumped to somewhere I wasn't suppose to and got stuck in geomtry.

@SpartyOn: I'd have to disagree with you and agree with Vinny that I would recommend SR3 over Skyrim to almost anyone. The first thing would be time commitment, you must commit 30+ hours if you want to think of getting anywhere in Skyrim whereas Saint's Row the 3rd is immediately enjoyable due to the way it was written or its crazy set piece moments. Another point is that a fantasy setting is harder for people to grasp than this whacked-out alternate modern urban setting. Also SR3 is not particularly hard or frustrating to play. It has a very loose style. On the other hand, Skyrim is and can be difficult at times, even on the easier settings you can end up dying a lot more than you want to. I think what it comes down to is that SR3 has more of a pick up whenever and play sensibility and Skyrim is sit and play for a long period of time sensibility.

And I was on that side of the camp that wanted SR3 to win GOTY, but I have no problems with Skyrim winning. While I found that experiences with both games were incredible, I found that my time with SR3 was way more enjoyable than my time with Skyrim. Plus, you have to remember that these are these five guys' opinions and they mentioned on some podcast last year that they do not want to be seen as definitive. Everyone has their own opinion and are entitled to it. If Jeff and Vinny believe that SR3 is the best game this year or if all of them agree that The Witcher 2 is the best looking game or whether MK9 instead of Rayman or LA Noire belonged on the top 10 list that is on them. Agree to disagree, but don't be an ass about it (Not saying that you are, just generally saying).

@Krakn3Dfx: I've played the PS3 version over 200+ hours and I've had my fun, but they are correct in ruling it out as that game is broke after a certain point. Once that save file gets over 10mb that game starts to break. The framerate will drop just start to drop to nothing. It's terrible. You would have to restart the game after a certain time period, because the game will slow down eventually leading to the game freezing. I've heard nothing else about the problem on the other consoles. It's unfortunate that that had to happen, but as a PS3 owner of Skyrim I feel that it is justified being ruled out.

Thank you, gents. I know Bismarck said people who like sausage should not see it being made, but it was a pleasure shearing you make sausage of this years top games list.

Amazing rally from behind by Brad, the Skyrim lover. I thought SR3rd had it.

Edit: switched Brad for Ryan (confused their names)

@russalatham: And many other people have crazybad problems. Consider yourself lucky. I'm never buying another Bethesda game again based on my problems with their products.

I have played tons of Skyrim since the day it came through all the patches...the only problems I have had are from dialogue between NPCs not happening a couple times. That was fixed by just saving and then loading that save. I have not had really any problems, some dragons acted odd at some point but it never got even close to game breaking. I'm playing on the 360, without install by the way.

Also with Saints Row 3, aren't they doing a ton of DLC? I heard something about them holding back stuff for DLC. Not sure if that was solid info. It was from a SR3 reviewer who loved SR2.

@depecheload said:

@russalatham: And many other people have crazybad problems. Consider yourself lucky. I'm never buying another Bethesda game again based on my problems with their products.

I won't go that far, but I have learned not to buy them new anymore. I'll be damned if I am going to pay $60 to be a beta tester for another Bethesda game that they may or may not decide to fix. I picked up New Vegas at around $15 and that is going to be my price point for Skyrim.

When Bethesda learns to stop intentionally releasing broken games on my Playstation 3 then they will start receiving more of my money. Until then, they can shove it.

Brad felt REALLY bad this year. He was making arguments against Saints Row that were even worse problems in Skyrim, but because he didn't like Saints Row and loved Skyrim, those arguments were ok to make in that manner despite how shallow they were (yeah, shallow, just like Renegade Ops) and how flimsy they may have been. This year has more or less cemented it for me that if Brad wants something to win, IT WILL WIN, because Brad won't ever concede to any opinion other than his own unless he HAS to because literally no one else agrees with him. And even then that's not a guarantee. How stalwartly he was defending Renegade Ops was just gross to me, even with four other people at the table telling him that he was crazy for thinking that Renegade Ops was some deep, complex experience of a game that would rival something like Dark Souls. Ugh. I enjoy listening to it, but, it just makes me hate Brad a little more every year.

You guys are all crazy, Bastion wasn't even discussed when it had serious chances of being GOTY.

That top spot was a fierce battle. Well fought, bomb squad.

Brad felt REALLY bad this year. He was making arguments against Saints Row that were even worse problems in Skyrim, but because he didn't like Saints Row and loved Skyrim, those arguments were ok to make in that manner despite how shallow they were (yeah, shallow, just like Renegade Ops) and how flimsy they may have been. This year has more or less cemented it for me that if Brad wants something to win, IT WILL WIN, because Brad won't ever concede to any opinion other than his own unless he HAS to because literally no one else agrees with him. And even then that's not a guarantee. How stalwartly he was defending Renegade Ops was just gross to me, even with four other people at the table telling him that he was crazy for thinking that Renegade Ops was some deep, complex experience of a game that would rival something like Dark Souls. Ugh. I enjoy listening to it, but, it just makes me hate Brad a little more every year.

@FateOfNever: But.... Renegade Ops had a Leveling mechanic... don't you see how deep that makes a game?

Anyway... I agree, but I've given up complaining about Brad I guess... I take the whole Giant Bomb crew as they come generally, and I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with **most** of the arguments he makes in these things.

Personally, I just don't respond well to people who make arguments the way that Brad does, but I have to agree that he's an essential part of the group.

@FateOfNever: Brad Couldn't defend MGS4 over GTA4 in 2008, Best GOTY Podcast IMO. I loved SR3 but Skyrim was clearly a better game, especially maxed out on PC with an Gamepad and big TV. Amazing Year for games Either way.