Giant Bombcast Giant Bomb's GOTY 2011 Deliberations: Day Four

@SpunkyHePanda said:

It is neither Incredibly Strange Shadow Planet nor Incredibly Twisted Shadow Planet.

That reminds me when they called Nikola Tesla Nikolai Tesla.

Duke was EXACTLY what I expected it to be. That is to say an awful piece of shit, I wasn't trying to imply that I liked it.

Also I think you might be misremembering Red Faction Guerrilla. Before Saints Row 3 came around it was easily the best sandbox game, with Just Cause 2 being the second best. I know it's not saying much but it's Metacritic score is a 85. Red Dead might have 95 but I'm not really sure why.

Damn! Naw, runner up is awesome!!! Listening to the Giant Bombcast and playing Quick Looks on my second monitor seemed to have payed off!

Loved the podcast mostly. Props to Vinny for putting Witcher on the map once again. But no mention of MGS HD or SF3 for best remake? NONSENSE!!

I love the story of Deus Ex and I don't care who knows it! The writing in that game is really strong, and it's world building is exceptional! Not quite as good as Bastion's or Witcher's, maybe, but even so! Great stuff!

@RenMcKormack said:

Guys in the remake of Third Strike: For Matching Service, they actually added stuff to it. They didn't just give you the old game again. Third Strike is the best HD remake objectively. it was the MOST remade. Of all the grief Capcom gets for this Ultimate and Super nonsense (which they have been doing for years) the way they lovingly treated Third Strike and Magic Sword/Final Fight downloadables is worth noting.

I just think that the only person who would appreciate Third Strike... would be Jeff and even he stated he didn't like 3rd Strike when it first came out in arcades. It just would be the toughest sell compared to what won and the Runner-Ups

I feel that Jeff is the only person in the world who really hates Catherine.

I feel that Jeff is the only person in the world who really hates Catherine.

In the can...

the fact that Jeff did not go "IN THE CAN IN THE CAN IN THE CAN" after Ryan said it flabbergasts me.

Did you guys just not play DXHR or something? It feels criminally overlooked in a number of categories--story, art design, new character.

Edit: best music, best mission/level too. Zero nods that I can recall and DXHR definitely was a contender for best music. Easily up there with Bastion.

Guys, there's a difference between a MacGuffin that drives a story, and a completely random dues ex machina that pops out of nowhere because the writers hit a wall.

Man, I don't get why Jeff hates Catherine so much.

Guys, there's a difference between a MacGuffin that drives a story, and a completely random dues ex machina that pops out of nowhere because the writers hit a wall.

@metalsnakezero said:

I feel that Jeff is the only person in the world who really hates Catherine.

Not sure why, I haven't played it yet but it seems like pushmo with a story attached.

it's ok Binding of Isaac, i still love you... well... maybe not love... but... you know

@metalsnakezero said:

I feel that Jeff is the only person in the world who really hates Catherine.

Nope. I feel it's characters are completely unlikable (Particularly Katherine. The solution to Vincent's problem was a very simple "never talk to this boring, annoying harpy ever again") and that relationship drama is just about the most vapid and uninteresting thing that you could possibly make a game/movie about.

The only thing I found interesting was the supernatural plotline, but that moved at an excruciatingly slow pace, with characters going "hey there's this weird rumor about men dying in their sleep isn't that weird?" through 2/3 of the game.

I felt the core gameplay was pretty lackluster as well, but it's the story and characters that are so crushingly disappointing to me after Persona 4; which is quite possibly my favourite JRPG ever.

I felt the core gameplay was pretty lackluster as well, but it's the story and characters that are so crushingly disappointing to me after Persona 4; which is quite possibly my favourite JRPG ever.

Metal Gear Solid HD Collection doesn't even get a mention? ... why?

Fortune Street got robbed for best story. The tragedy of District A, Platypunk's manipulation, the return of Bowser Jr, c'mon!

@metalsnakezero said:

I feel that Jeff is the only person in the world who really hates Catherine.

There's plenty of people that do so. Of course these people are crazy, 'cause Catherine's gameplay is godtier, yo.

@Marokai said:

I had complete respect for your opinion up to this point. Catherine shares so many of the same traits with Persona 4, but only in a more condensed form, that it seems crazy to me that someone can love one but hate the other. They both have frustrating characters, they both have bizarre and preposterous narratives, they both dip heavyyy into JRPG tropes and false-endings, they both have moments of screaming at the TV trying to get through the thick skulls of the people on screen.. Not even mentioning the similarities of style and music,

I dunno, maybe someone disagrees?I've mentioned this before, but I know I do. And I like Catherine a whole lot.

Sharing some stylistic flairs really doesn't change that these are 2 complete different stories-- one is a lighthearted murder mystery(japanese scooby-doo, basically), the other is an(attempt) at exploring sexual themes with a supernatural background. Oh, and Marokai--

They both have frustrating characters, they both have bizarre and preposterous narratives, they both dip heavyyy into JRPG tropes and false-endings, they both have moments of screaming at the TV trying to get through the thick skulls of the people on screen..

Besides the bolded, broad statements like this can be applied, to, like, 90% of videogames out there. And as for the bolded: whut. Both have a retarded god figure pop out of nowhere.......that's it.

I'll give you that both rely on rumors/urban legends, an otherworldly place born from the human psyche and a human overcoming a god who does not understand humanity. But those are hardly JRPG tropes, those are Persona tropes. In the long run, they're superficial similarities anyway.

@mutha3 said:

There's plenty of people that do so. Of course these people are crazy, 'cause Catherine's gameplay is godtier, yo.

fuck yessss

I was dreading the "Most Disappointing" category though, since I knew Catherine would be brought up in some way. But man, Jeff doesn't just hate Catherine, he seems fucking disgusted with it. That shit is raw.

I dunno, maybe someone disagrees?I've mentioned this before, but I know I do. And I like Catherine a whole lot.

Sharing some stylistic flairs really doesn't change that these are 2 complete different stories-- one is a lighthearted murder mystery(japanese scooby-doo, basically), the other is an(attempt) at exploring sexual themes with a supernatural background. 
 
----

Besides the bolded, broad statements like this can be applied, to, like, 90% of videogames out there. And as for the bolded: whut. Both have a retarded god figure pop out of nowhere.......that's it.

They nailed the Portal 2 discussion. It can be good, but it can also be very bad. It depends on who you play with. Some people just can't do co-op puzzle solving without being enormous douche bags. It's something about the puzzle solving part and a very deep insecurity about how they believe others perceive their intelligence. But on the other hand if you get to play with a fairly normal, relaxed, and secure personality it's great fun!

Aghhhh, they forgot Beyond Good and Evil HD and Sonic CD HD. Oh well.

@Marokai said:

Yes, we've had this discussion before, and please remember that I say this as someone who has the deepest of appreciation for both games, but I honestly don't really think the core story of either of them is what you really come to Persona 4 or Catherine for, and aside from the tones that they're going for, Catherine is a leveling system and a Velvet Room away from basically being a Persona game.

Besides, Persona 4 may start as a light-hearted murder mystery, but that's not how that whole story ends up. It takes a hard left turn toward the end, going from 'Japanese scooby-doo' to fighting another villain who randomly believes the world is diseased and needs to die (JRPG trope) leading kids to rise up to save the day (JRPG trope) all the while dealing with a number of trick-endings and unlockable plot divergences discovered only through the stubborn dialogue choices (JRPG trope).

In the last 5% of the game, dude. A part that people frequently deride as being the weakest part of P4.

For 70% of the game its a "light-hearted murder mystery", then it takes a dark turn for its final act, but the JRPG boss bullshit doesn't really come into play until you face the(optional, I might add) final boss. If you take the story as a whole, the big impetus for everything happening in Persona 4 is the murders.

Y'know, I'd actually agree with the bolded-- the elements are there: Soejima Shigenori artstyle, a story based on urban legends, the inevitable JRPG god.

I'd even agree that the big appeal with both these game is not its core plot(though, I think Catherine's characters are a HUGE missed opportunity and they end up totally undeveloped, besides Vincent)

They're hardly the same games, but they share so many similarities that it only makes sense to at least have some level of appreciation toward both.

....But here's where I differ. You're right, there are similarities. And if you like one, there's stuff to appreciate in the other(Jeff mentioned he dug the character art, didn't he?). But implying you necessarily need to have appreciation for both because of these similarities? Um, sorry, but that's silly. You want to tell me there isn't a Zelda game you hate? Or an MGS? Or an adventure game ? After all, a lot of these example share the same amount(or more) of similarities than P4 does with Catherine.

@Marokai said:

I had complete respect for your opinion up to this point. Catherine shares so many of the same traits with Persona 4, but only in a more condensed form, that it seems crazy to me that someone can love one but hate the other. They both have frustrating characters, they both have bizarre and preposterous narratives, they both dip heavyyy into JRPG tropes and false-endings, they both have moments of screaming at the TV trying to get through the thick skulls of the people on screen.. Not even mentioning the similarities of style and music

They're not really though, there are some similarities when you work in those generalizations but its entirely feasible to like one and not the other. They're not even the same genre. I mean, I have conflicting opinions about both games.

I will probably put Catherine somewhere on my list but I'd still consider it a disappointment personally. The gameplay never entirely suited me but even then I could see when the game was just being cheap/ and downright cheating. For a game that places so much emphasis on the economy of movement it sure makes it hard to do just that. None of which is helped by the frustrating camera and the inverted controls whenever you hang from behind a block.

I can see where his Jeff's take comes from, and I'm just reiterating on what he has said previously as I've not listened to this podcast. For as mature as the game likes to portray itself the final act really leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Going the route it does really undercuts some of the other elements it had going for it, and just makes look a little goofy in all honesty. I wouldn't have minded had the game not been sold as something else entirely.

Its an interesting game, and I'm really glad that I played it but it does have some significant flaws that I think some people tend to gloss over.

@Marokai said:

that someone can love Persona 4 while hating everything about Catherine unless we're all looking at Persona 4 with rose-colored glasses.

I'd say you're probably doing the same in regards to Catherine.

Not to attack anyone person individually but to say that someone can't not like a particular game regardless of how you feel about it personally just irks me.

When they brought up "Best HD Re-release" my ears perked up. Even before they read the list of games they were debating about, I was thinking "There's no way Metal Gear Solid HD" isn't going win." And then they don't even MENTION it. Really? But they'll talk about the 17th re-release of Resident Evil 4 or how much value 2 games on one disc was for ICO/SOTC. But no mention MGS HD, which had 3 games including an updated Peace Walker with online modes. Really?!

@MysteriousBob: I know right, WTF.

They didn't even mention the Metal Gear Solid HD collection?!?

"I will fight a dude for Portal 2"

Ryan Davis

@mutha3 said:

In the last 5% of the game, dude. A part that people frequently deride as being the weakest part of P4.

"Last 5%" is a bit of a stretch, but even so, I feel like that can only be excused away because Persona 4 was so freakin' long. Catherine's stumbling toward the end only seems to be more notable because the game itself is a fraction of the length of Persona 4 but I wouldn't say that it's any less or more disappointing.

....But here's where I differ. You're right, there are similarities. And if you like one, there's stuff to appreciate in the other(Jeff mentioned he dug the character art, didn't he?). But implying you necessarily need to have appreciation for both because of these similarities? Um, sorry, but that's silly. You want to tell me there isn't a Zelda game you hate? Or an MGS? Or an adventure game ? After all, a lot of these example share the same amount(or more) of similarities than P4 does with Catherine.

You're right, though, about this. There are Zelda games I dislike. There are Mario games I dislike. I love Final Fantasy, and there are plenty of those I dislike. Perhaps I was being a little unfair, afterall.

But even though I can say there are Mario games I hate, or FF games I hate, I still can't feel like there's any way I could have the level of complete disgust that Jeff has toward Catherine, towards any of those. I get how you can dislike one and love the other, but I still don't know how you can want to burn one in effigy, and adore the other. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't see how there was anything so categorically different about Catherine that gets that response.

@WatanabeKazuma said:

None of which is helped by the frustrating camera and the inverted controls whenever you hang from behind a block.

This totally bummed me out more then any of the games narrative failings. I've got no qualms about resorting to youtube for those segments!

based on the description of this video, I was expecting another Minerva's Den type argument. I'm kind of disappointed!

iilomilo wins this category handily.

brad fails agian

How do you not mention ilomilo for Best Download-Only? Goddamn.

@PatPandaHat said:

How do you not mention ilomilo for Best Download-Only? Goddamn.

lazy surface levell numpties. they dont get it theyre brains are too small.

@LeoMinor said:

When they brought up "Best HD Re-release" my ears perked up. Even before they read the list of games they were debating about, I was thinking "There's no way Metal Gear Solid HD" isn't going win." And then they don't even MENTION it. Really? But they'll talk about the 17th re-release of Resident Evil 4 or how much value 2 games on one disc was for ICO/SOTC. But no mention MGS HD, which had 3 games including an updated Peace Walker with online modes. Really?!

Just got done listening to this and had the same reaction. Ico doesn't even hold up as a game. It's less than 5 hours of walking through the same-ish stone, grass, and water areas before an interesting ending. Shadow is a much better game, but $40 for only that is stretching it.

Metal Gear Solid 3 is almost a perfect game. Everything from it's story, to combat, to replay value. It alone is still worth $40, but then you get another two great games that are packed with just as much value (well, maybe MGS2 is the weakest of the three, but still). For shame, Giant Bomb.

also, not having the mgs collection on their list seems like a giant oversight. that said, I'm really glad the Team Ico Collection won because I prefer those games *shrugs*

Also, I want to say on the subject of Most Disappointing... I /finished/ Dragon Age 2 and really enjoyed it, while my save on Dragon Age: Origins has been sitting on the Mage Tower sloth demon fight since Origins was /released/, and I never really felt the need to go back.

So, in conclusion, F the old-style Bioware game-style, F it hard.

Radiant Historia had an amazing story. The game is overlooked everywhere.

Wow, No MGS HD collection mention? Huge oversight

I completely understand the argument of Armageddon not taking worst diappointment, but I really need to know what happened. Why did they ditch Guerilla's open-world formula for a bug-hunter corridor shooter? Patrick, I would really like to see that interview.

I don't get the love of Renegade Ops I hear from the guys.

I DLd the trial, and it's yet another twin-stick shooter among thousands. There didn't even seem anything particularly neat about it. There was a silly arcadey story like you'd expect and nothing unique to speak of.

The cars handled alright, I guess...

What am I missing??

I'm not feeling these deliberations this year around, it just feels like everyone is spread thin on what games they've played. The lack of experience with the games themselves makes some of these categories useless.

Why have HD Remake category if most of the staff hasn't even touched more than 2 all year long. It's just pointless because the deliberations end up sounding washed out.

Man DNF is fucking terrible. I played that and then Bulletstorm right afterwards. The amount of crazy fun is completely night and day.

also, not having the mgs collection on their list seems like a giant oversight. that said, I'm really glad the Team Ico Collection won because I prefer those games *shrugs*

Crazy game moments from back in the day, rock the crazy game moments of today.

@WilltheMagicAsian said:

I'd be surprised if Metal Gear Solid HD collection doesn't win best HD update.

It's funny that they don't even mention it.

its day five. Where's my podcast?

@nelson1tom: america, time zones