Giant Bomb Presents: Giant Spoiler Snakecast 9/18/2015

They mention this at the end.

Yeah I agree thoroughly with your breakdown.

I do think the tapes did kind of stop Zero from being truly THE villain as he has been painted at times but like you say he was paranoid, obsessed with control, and he set up such a complex set of systems and a huge organization that it all slipped from his grasp and effectively gained a will of its own. That does not excuse him because he created the whole system. And it's a system obsessed with censorship and control of individuals. Not something I believe in at all.

And as I mentioned in another post, I like looking at the end of MGS4 after this because like you're saying, the Boss just didn't want people to fight. She stopped fighting even if it meant giving up her life (and her AI in Peace Walker stopped fighting and killed itself, reinforcing that choice again). Big Boss was never willing to stop fighting and Zero was obsessed with control. Both were certainly wrong in their own ways and as I said I think by the end of V here Big Boss and Zero are on very similar footing as far as being in the wrong and escalating this conflict. The fact that Big Boss created this huge military organization just as a distraction from an even bigger military organization kind of says it all about his war obsession. Both dying at the end of 4 there is even more fitting.

So yeah, definitely agree with the "bunch of assholes" idea in that everyone has dirty hands by the conclusion of this game, I feel. They have pretty well painted motivations and maybe good intentions but yes, there is wrong on all sides.

Everything in any game ever is meaningless.


Was their anything special about the yellow combat deployments? I don't know if i ever sent them out with that tank-gear thing Huey was making.

Big Boss makes the move away from being a real hero in Peace Walker. He turns against the Boss' will after her AI drowns itself instead of launching a nuclear weapon. Then he gets his own Metal Gear and a nuke. That was the turn.

There is no mustache twirling villain in Metal Gear (well there are a few, like Skullface, but Big Boss is note one of them). There are two forces (Zero and Big Boss) who launch a major conflict based on their ideas of the Boss and both are misguided and lost their way more and more as they went on. Zero is obsessed with control and Big Boss is obsessed with creating an independent army that can impose its will on the world. The plots of Big Boss in this game establish that he is actually very similar to Zero overall, even if they have different methods.

Curious about this myself. I did a few of them but I keep losing walkers in them and I don't see walkers around enough to have a steady supply of them coming in. I replayed that one mission with them sitting in that camp once to get enough to launch another mission that required them, but now I need two more because I lost a couple in the last mission and fuck that noise.

Jeff mentions that it feels like there could have been more games after V. He is correct, they were not planning on this being the last MGS until Konami told them so a couple months back.

Zero certainly lost his control when he got bed ridden and handed his passion project over to Sigint who then turned it in to a AI network and it evolved in to something worse.

And yes, it's an oil rig full of dudes obsessed with fighting but I think it's Miller that mostly steers everyone in the wrong direction with his paranoia and negative approach to anything. Ocelot seemed to just support either bosses even though it's because of self hypnosis, he knows the grand scheme. Venom snake to me seems like a really blank slate that does what ever Miller tells him to do.

Chapter 3 is (supposedly) in the game, by the way, and it's related to the global nuclear disarmament Dan mentions.

@mithhunter55: The yellow deployments give special rewards like blueprints and emblem parts as well as having a trophy/achivement tied to them.

About the radio talking about the plane crash in the beginning, the game actually opens with audio from the plane crash. The first time you boot it up and see the logos for Konami and stuff, you hear the pilot talking about losing control and then you hear Mantis breathing. Pretty neat touch.

@demoskinos: Thanks !

I'm surprised that I'm even doing this because I dig the lore so much, but I'm only on mission 22 in the story after nearly 70 hours of gameplay and finding that particular mission to be a MAJOR pain in the ass to complete because of all the blind spots, and I'm just getting the feeling it's going to be forever until I beat this game. I'm sure it'll still be awesome to actually SEE what these guys talk about during the podcast, but my thirst for more Metal Gear conversation is outpacing my ability to actually get through the proper story.

What I was trying to get across, here, is that people keep throwing out the "No, YOU!" argument to attack people who are claiming they have an issue with the way she's dressed. I don't think you're allowed to turn the conversation into an attack on the person laying out an argument that the character doesn't fit into their own personal values if the person who has the issue shares a perspective in line with society at large. The human nature angle doesn't really come into play here, because if we're going to take the route that all perspective is subjective and there is no right or wrong, there's simply no argument. I don't have a personal problem with taking that route on the issue as I'm not hugely against the character design, but I'm not here to argue that, just to try to point out how absurd it is to attack someone for sharing values with other people in their society instead of articulating a more eloquent argument. That's all I was shooting for there.

Yeah but, it's a bad story whether he's big boss or not, right? I could understand being intrigued by the character, but not freaking out over the twist, especially when it turns out you really were (a) Big Boss in the canon.

I wish you guys would have gotten Shane Bettenhausen AKA The Man God for this podcast so I could hear him call everybody who doesn't understand the story a peasant again

Eli/Liquid's DNA not matching Venom was the big giveaway to the big twist. At that point I was kinda sure that Venom wasn't really Big Boss, but the DNA sealed the deal.

Huey's storyline could've had a much better end (i.e. he gets fucking shot in the face over and over) if MGS2 hadn't had the Otacon/step-mom incest and that, at the time, being the reason for his dad killing himself. Which he had to survive MGSV for.

I totally missed all of the Paz stuff, but the video someone posted with the Paz tapes led me to a video with the Paz cut scenes and now I know how to unlock it.

I hope Kojima's next game, wherever he ends and whatever type of game it is, is about a bunch of kids with a giant robot forming their own army and one of them is a psychic.

@two_socks: Huh, I thought that was the logical conclusion of the helicopter at the end of Ground Zeroes. Somehow that helicopter had to end up somewhere other than the middle of the ocean. At the same time I guess I didn't have the context of kid Mantis when I heard the intro.

Edit: Yep, found a video, that's clearly the plane crashing. That you're supposed to first think that's the helicopter from Ground Zeroes is just another piece of perfect in that intro.

@naion said:

The timeline at the end of the game says "Big Boss establishes the fortified military nation "Outer Heaven" in South Africa" so I think he was heavily involved in creating it even if Venom Snake later merged DD with it or whatever.

Also, I never played MG1 or 2 but what I've seen people talk about is that Big Boss may not have wanted you to succeed in your mission in MG1, as, among other things, several things he tells Snake lead him right into traps. He had to send in his best soldiers to make a serious effort to avoid suspicion.

Wish I'd never found Paz(extended spoiler block as such a short one may be obvious)

Jason why are you such a big baby? Set up your FOB. lol Mine has been setup since day one and I have yet to get invaded.

The complaining over the way Quiet is dressed has made me like her even more. I was indifferent towards her at first but now seeing everyone freak out over the way she dresses makes her my favorite character.

The game isn't perfect, the mission structure near the end gets really weird and there is one major plot thread left behind (and already uncovered as cut content), but that ending was everything it needed to be, especially in the context of this likely being the last Metal Gear game ever. I don't see how anyone that understands the series and the themes within could be unhappy with it, as it's consistent with everything we've come to expect at this point and the themes of how information is manipulated. People actually wanted Big Boss to just get all emo and turn into some tortured mustache twirler? What series have you been playing? I swear some people hate-play this series just to justify their own negative feelings about Kojima.

The Quiet character arc is so damn good that's it a shame that it's being ignored simply because of what she's wearing. It builds so well even in the context of the gameplay, since you've actually been forming that bond with her, seeing as she's made your life easier for hours and hours.

Fuck Huey though. That guy was the real villain. You spare his life even after he murdered the mother of his child, lied about everything, and got a fuckton of your men killed and he's still talking shit as he floats away on his raft.

Can anyone explain the theories about why they show the Twin Towers at the end?

I have not listened yet, but I know for a fact that 1:42 is about 3 hours too short of a true Spoilercast. Mission 46, man...

I'm usually terrible with these things, but I guessed the 'twist' the moment the character editor popped up in the opening.

Although, I will say that the ending confused the hell out of me for a minute or two because I forgot I entered my name as 'David Hayter'.

That seems to be a common MO with a lot of people and Metal Gear these days: play it for 40 hours so you can tell people how much you're above it.

@ch3burashka: what's the point of saying "spoilers" in a podcast that's all about spoilers about the game? I think that if you're here you have given up all rights to say, "spoilers" lol.

@takahashiro I don't know...I think MGS5 might have the weakest story of the main MGS games...there's hardly anything of meaning in it and it really doesn't effect the series one way or another in my opinion. Big Boss is a bad guy even if MGSV never happened.

There is no way of knowing when the Miller/Ocelot secret tape is recorded, but Miller knows about Venom Snake and the real Big Boss the entire game. There's the tape of Zero calling Miller and explaining his plan to him.

@artisanbreads: I agree about the meta level of the ending. That's actually what first came to mind as I'm listening to the tape at the end with BB explaining everything. It was a cool nod to longtime fans. It wasn't until a bit later that I considered the story implications for MG1 and 2.

Ground Zeroes reference/analogies/etc. The place where the Twin Towers used to be is called Ground Zero now apparently. It's also the city where Solidus tried to shut down the Patriots (Cipher's AI), which was the first time someone went straight for them even if his plan was bad, so it's relevant to MGS events.

It makes the most sense if it's after TPP, or else Kaz would be conflicted between going after Skull Face for destroying MSF and nearly killing Big Boss, and going after Big Boss for lying to him and abandoning him.

Miller was caught and tortured by the Soviets because he had taken that job in Afghanistan to get funds to protect Big Boss. (It's not specified how he was helping. Could've been money going through Ocelot, or could've been just keeping Diamond Dogs around as a thing.)

This is the best playing mainline Metal Gear game... However I'm not exaggerating when I say I think the resolution of the story is fucking TERRIBLE. And having to play through what is literally just the opening mission again with you having to go through the whole thing before you get to the twist. And they just handle the whole thing so poorly. Like the guys say, the ending few hours of that game is completely slapdash.

It's nice to see the game getting love on GB. The youtube critic/redditor backlash has been in full tilt elsewhere. Even Neogaf has come down on TPP. The myopic narrative is quickly becoming: "Story is garbage, everything was cut. Game is okay but without the story whats the point?"

Once again, Jeff's snap analysis ends up being more on point than a 45 minute Superbunnyhop circlejerk. Paraphrase: "It's like they took MGS stuff and put it into a new genre."

The setting, story and characters have all been "soft-rebooted" to set the table for a rad, weird, open stealth game. No, Kojima didn't make an Oscar caliber think-piece that makes you sit in quiet reflection for hours. He made a super fun video game that plays and looks great. Story wise, Kojima actually spun an odd inconsistency from an MSX game into a strange espionage revenge story.

Did i miss something or am I right in thinking that psycho mantis is another big boss clone. If true how is no one bringing that up.

The thing I have to keep reminding myself of is that people have responded to every Metal Gear ending like this. After this many games, you'd think people would know what they were getting into yet are still somehow pulling the "ruined forever" card.

At no point in the game is this referred to or even hinted at. It would make zero sense if it were true.

@xerseslives: In the pc version their is a steam card with psycho mantis and it's called the third child. He's seemingly the same age as liquid and might be some sort of collection of clones where liquid is blonde, solid has dark hair, and mantis is red haired.

The Third Child is just a literal translation of the code name he was given (Tretij Rebenok) because they probably didn't bother to give proper names to Russian psychic kids that were used as guinea pigs. There is probably an Eight or Ninth Child or whatever too.

They've already established a birthplace and origin for Mantis and nothing about what he does is consistent with any abilities shown in anyone else in Big Boss' bloodline. If anything, he'd be more likely to have a shared ancestor with The Sorrow or someone.

There are only three clones, Solid and Liquid, and soon after, Solidius.

Kinda wished they'd have held back on the 'well it's MGS, can't explain it lol'. Like, why do a spoilercast then!

Super Bunny Hop, creator of some of the finest MGS analysis videos I've ever seen, has weighed in on MGSV. Given how good many of his other analysis videos have been, I'm sure this one is a treat too... Once I've got 34 spare minutes. Spoils the whole series like this podcast does so it seemed like the right thread for it.

EDIT: Finished it. He spends the first chunk pulling apart the story, the second talking about the gameplay, and the last talking about how odd he finds the review reaction to the game. It's an excellent video, even the bits I don't personally agree with.

Mmm... I shoudn't have listened to this podcast but I couldn't resist. Ah well good thing I wasn't entirely concerned about the lore of MGS too much. Anyone think they are going to announce this missing mission 52 that is supposed to be an entire campaign as a DLC?

Yup, I find this GB podcast to be a far more insightful look at the game. Many youtubers are just repackaging everybody else's ideas into overly long videos all saying the same thing. Superbunnyhop recently released a "review" of MGS5, and it's pretty bad. He gets caught up with over analysing the marketing and behind the game, and he also feels the need to discredit other reviewers that gave the game a high score.

wait there's a plot? I'm 66 hours in all I've been doing is riding on jeep with DD as we steal Boom Box tapes.

My assumption was that the cut Eli island was going to be post-release DLC that they canned once it became clear Konami was done.

It was Mission 51, with an all-new environment, tying up loose ends, and a big setpiece battle...

Glad someone in the comments mentioned the Paz stuff. I went and finished it and it was pretty interesting. It's a bit on the spiritual side tho, but her bones and teeth are imbedded on venom snake after all. Plus all her memories corresponded to her interacting with the mother base crew rather than snake.

It also fixed the one problem i had with the story, where a significant event was simply "misremembered". Sure, it fixed it with another very long term hallucination, but it gave some importance to it again rather than remembering it as the "V" bomb incident.

So... Was the plan all along for real Big Boss to send Someone (that just so happened to end up being his clone) to Outer Heaven in '95 with the specific express intention of killing Venom in order to be able to secretly finalise Zanzibar Land while the world thought he's dead? Because if so I think that is all the heel turn you need