Giant Bomb Presents: Giant Spoiler Snakecast 9/18/2015

Great post. I care about the fiction and I actually do think it shows and has a lot more than people say. Some can't just accept the structure. Also that it's less wordy, which is a good thing (although at times it is good in Metal Gear previously in a fun way).

Eli's role is without a doubt left open but do people realize that this game wasn't always thought to be the last Metal Gear game. That's a silly expectation.

It definitely stands on its own game play wise. However, half of the bosses you can literally call in the chopper and escape, are super easy to cheese, or just unmemorable. (Similar problem in Peace Walker) Story focuses on a ton of characters that while interesting on their own are not the major players who I want to hear about. There was so much Huey and Quiet when I thought this was my opportunity to see how Ocelot operates from being on his side. More dialogue with Eli to learn what shaped him as a character and perhaps some more Third Child backstory. (or at least true confirmation that it's who we assume it is) And after the ending I do not even really feel like we got a TRUE telling of how Big Boss acts, just his doppelganger. Also, what was the deal with battle gear? Hello? Not to mention Mother Base was a missed opportunity for me to see Ocelot spinning his gun around and having him argue with Miller around a table somewhere. They didn't even need the impressive directed cutscenes, just the characters animating whilst having some of the cassette conversations would make more sense. Miller in the mess hall with Code Talker talking about burgers? Again, a missed opportunity for more interesting and immersive storytelling, but instead Mother Base was just dead for the most part.

The twist is alright, but in a franchise like Metal Gear it was just weak and more confusing than surprising. The entire second chapter is just... not good, except maybe Quiets ending. Not enough new story to support the extreme rehashes of older missions. (Do not get me started on Mission 46) And while the game play is fantastic and fun, (the best of recent open world titles) the pacing is totally off. Going 3-6 hours without any real plot development is not good for a metal gear game that has always been a story driven game at its core. After about 50 hours I just found myself wanting to rush story missions to actually get the Metal Gear story I know and love, but I couldn't because my brain kept telling me i'd miss something important if I didn't do side ops, visit mother base after a couple missions or develop some new cool tech.

TLDR: Story is weak while the game play is superb in a series which is usually praised as an incredibly strong story driven title supported by good game play. Because of this it doesn't feel like a true Metal Gear Solid 5, but instead an open sandbox game with the Metal Gear backstory/charm slapped on.

@foolishchaos: Agree completely, at 31 I felt like there was so little real story that I was prepared to be annoyed. Chapter 2 helped a little but it was all so muddled and lacking direction. Overall I think the plot to V was a real letdown. It didn't help that I hated the big twist at the end.

Giant Bomb audio player's cassette tape motif works really well with this podcast.

Amazing video game, really enjoyed the story beats. Can't wait for it to (possibly) win GB's GAME OF THE YEAR.

@counterclockwork87: I would be shocked if it didn't; JC3, FO4, ect probably won't be as universally loved between the staff as this is.

Metal Gear Solid 5: Outer Heaven

I completely disagree with Brad here. The game presents itself as a tale of big boss waking up and taking on Skull Face to stop his plans. That story wraps itself up and comprises most of the game. The second chapter is about what happens after and the "twist" about your identity is about what's to come. It doesn't have any consequence to what you just played because it's not supposed to. It feels like a twist for metal gear fans and to satisfy Kojimas lust for tying the story together.

I sincerely doubt Kojima expected to be able to continue with Metal Gear considering what was happening with Konami so he used it as a way to tell his story. I really think it works with the message that he's been hammering in with every MGS game. It being inconsequential for the majority of the game a good thing, in my opinion.

Also, Brad has stated multiple times that he didn't like what MGS2 was putting down, and I adored everything in that game, so of course we'd be on opposite sides with this.

I'm bummed listening to this because I feel like Giant Bomb's GOTY now is going to be MGS V, no contest. For me there's a strong argument to be made between MGS V and Witcher 3 (looking only at AAA games, that is). I'd like to hear that discussion in December, but it seems like the GB staff wasn't feeling Witcher nearly as much as I did.

Anyway, the only reason I draw the comparison is because I feel both games this year have opened my eyes to new possibilities for open world games going forward, and yet they're diametrically opposed in their approaches. I think there's an argument worth having there.

Just to add my pennysworth in mgs1 snake and miller discuss the fact that they used to work together even though its not the real miller that is commen knowlodge so muller worked with solid agiant big boss.

I disagree with Brad about the twist not re-framing the entire story. In the end I feel it makes Miller the most tragic character in the series, considering he will eventually be murdered by ocelot or Liquid (whatever is cannon). It turns his constant hammy aggravated tone into believable frustration with his situation. He has to blindly support Venom, knowing that he may not truly understand or follow the will of the real Big Boss.

I still want more...

It bothers me how quickly they write off the Paz stuff as stupid. For one, Venom is hallucinating in that game constantly. All of those visual effects are because of the shrapnel in his skull.

Secondly, it's not about Paz and Big Boss. It's about Paz and Venom. Venom hallucinating Paz is his subconscious mind, the man he originally was, trying to come to grips with the fact that he failed to save her, and almost directly lead to the downfall of his hero and his comrades. It's not just an afterthought or a dumb little thing; it's probably the strongest and most well-realized arc in the game, and the only one that has a proper resolution.

Just finished Mission 46 and finally listened to this. I mostly agree with Brad's criticisms here, except that the twist didn't bother me as much. There are some major problems with the story in this game but it's still an awesome game.

Also, Jason is 100% right that the epilogue Kaz / Ocelot convo absolutely takes place at the beginning of the game as soon as you rescue Miller. Kaz knowing about Venom Snake's true identity the entire time is pretty much the only that justifies how fucking crazy he acts throughout this game.

I just beat this last night. All I can say is I wanted more story. The discussion around the game here, comments and spoiler-cast is great. During the start of Chapter 2, during the cutscene, it showed Paz. So I thought I'd rescue her or meet her somewhere, and that never happened. So yeah, of course she's just in Mother Base recovering. Ocelot or Miller would have no reason to tell me this during the game, like, the moment she got to Mother Base. *sigh* That was a gripe for me.

Oh yeah, I've just been running around Mother Base looking for random stuff and I remembered Volgin. What was the point of bringing him back to Mother Base if there were no more updates on him or why we even have him?

If I accidentally locked myself in a death trap, I would bang on the walls and call to my wife to let me out. She didn't put me in there!

Really loved this game, but 4 is still my favorite.

Finally got around to being able to listen to this. It's nice to hear from Brad that while it got 5 stars because it plays like a very solid game, it definitely has problems.

There were very long stretches of this game that were flat out boring. They did not need to drag out fairly weak ending that long. I was getting really tired of people acting like this is a sure-thing for GOTY while I was struggling to find the motivation to push through more generic missions.

MGS 2 is still the best game in the series.

@telexen: yeah i mean overall it feels like the first half of a game in terms of how it was presented to us (back to the chapter thing and the expectation problem that Jeff mentioned). The generic missions I didn't have a problem with playing through the first time because I felt like the story beats would be respected and fully fleshed out. But as it turns out, it feels like what the game probably actually is, which is something whose ambitions were realized mechanically but whose narrative couldn't be finished because of how huge it was meant to be. It's already a crazy huge game, but I can't be the only one who read the "chapter" thing as Kojima basically being told that he needs to make an ending for this game ASAP. Like I get what Jeff is saying about overestimating that and how we can't really deduce the intentions of the dev team. But to me it doesn't seem like the way they would wrap it up if they had all of the resources and time they wanted. Idk I'm looking forward to the dev retrospective on this game however many years down the line that could happen, because at this point I'm still pretty damn confused about the agency of the developers vs. the pressure from konami (since we've established at this point that konami is a perverse hell corporation [ie a corporation acting in its most base capacity]).

I mean maybe I'm wrong and it was just a culmination of everyone involved feeling like they were done with this game. But idk the timing of the konami split with kojima feels super suspect in terms of them basically cutting him off (and out). Not that any of what we're doing makes any difference. We all bought the game, and konami knew we would. And what would them pouring more money into the narrative actually earn them? probably nothing. maybe a bit of respect from all of us? but in monetary terms, that really doesn't mean shit. it feels like kojima got away with as much cinematic shit as he could while still producing a game that is mechanically very appealing and marketable. even though the actual gameplay has been pretty neglected in terms of marketing. I CAN'T MAKE SENSE OF ANY OF THIS, I'M GOING MAD, PLEASE HELP.

@bannerthief: To summarize someone else's idea. You don't even need Peace Walker and TPP to explain Big Boss' turn. You just need to watch the end of MGS3 where he doesn't shake hands with the CIA director.

Finally finished the game after taking my damn time with it and not exposing myself to any trailers or spoilers before finishing it. What little that got spoiled on that previous bombcast felt inconsequential compared to the actual meat of the story. From the beginning it definitely felt like it was headed in that direction of character reversal to me but I didn't think this game would have the balls to play it so straight all the way through. While I thought that twist was amazing and unbelievably satisfying as a mind fuck, I also thought replaying that opening mission is not at all fun to do again.

I think Quiet ended up being a great character but only as long as you don't think of her as an actual female but rather as some anime monstrosity in the shape of a woman. She's like some kind of homunculus or forest dryad but she ended up being really interesting in a lot ways beyond being naked all the time. I do wonder if that vocal chord parasite is what also gave the Cobras from MGS3 their crazy powers a la The Skulls. I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something in the tapes.

I don't want to be sore at the lack of resolution with Eli because Jeff seems totally right in saying that you could squeeze some more juice out of that franchise if they want to leave that thread dangling. However that boss encounter made that thing out to be the most technologically impressive version of all the Metal Gears in any of the games and to have it get taken away by young insane Liquid Snake seems like bad news for the world of PMCs. Other than the Sahelanthropis fight I thought the boss fights were weak overall compared to other games in the series though still a lot better than the PSP games. They all probably get a pass purely because the controls are so tight.

Sorry for the long post. In short this is one amazing video game. Certainly a front runner for game of the year. It is a bit rough around the edges in the actual structure of the story telling but I really enjoyed it in the end. Even though Konami no longer gives a fuuuuuuck about video games I'm glad that the Metal Gear Solid games continue to live up to their reputation of weirdness. I'm really happy I saved Hideo Gear before finishing this game. Thanks for the podcast.

I just want a sequel now where you play Master Miller opening a hamburger franchise.

Haven't played this yet (waiting for a sale) but I have a question: If I don't particularly give a shit about the MGS story, characters etc, and I only intend on playing this for the awesome gameplay mechanics and open world shenanigans etc, will listening to this spoil any of those things?

I'm glad I listened to this because i had no idea about the Paz stuff despite putting over 300 hours into the game

What the hell, after doing everything story related I can think of, (unless you have to do all side ops) I haven't gotten the final Quiet mission they talked about. Upon reading the wiki page here for the game I seen that mission and was quite puzzled and then heard the guys talking about it was ever more puzzled.

What exactly is needed to unlock said mission, cause it seems pretty cannon. Maybe a bug???

I'm saddened that gameplay alone is worth 5 stars to Brad when the plot is so...SO...sorely lacking.

I was super unimaginative and put my name as "Snake". So Ocelot's dialogue made very little sense there (also the passport).

For anyone wondering, the second half of the timeline that Jeff didn't see is missable if you "skip" the credits after the first half of the timeline. It sucks that there's no way to show the ending again without slogging through mission 46 a second time.

Man all the loose ends in this game really bother me. And the preponderance of so many identical side-ops is utterly the worst. But probably the most annoying thing is that Mother Base was really quite pointless. It never gets permanent showers, and also the only toilet was a hallucination so I am forced to assume that everyone is peeing in the temporary shower. WTH.
But seriously, I wish they'd done more with the hallucination stuff; the Paz reveal was cool so more stuff like that, please! And the thing that makes no sense about Miller is how Venom just lets him do whatever even though he's clearly insane. As shitty as Huey was, he wasn't wrong about Diamond Dogs.
Don't even get me started on them letting Eli run around the place despite his obvious antagonism...why even keep that guy around?!? Ocelot is supposed to be smarter than that.

The scene at end of the game SPECIFICALLY said the real Big Boss is off building 'the real Outer Heaven'. You cannot blame the duders when the game itself is confusing and actively contradicting itself.

[spoiler] test [/spoiler]

Spoiler alert: The story is bad.