I think I finally need to just put this in writing as opposed to running around my house yelling to myself.  I recently played Street Fighter IV having never played a Street Fighter game thinking this is finally going to be the game to get into that genre.  Wrong.  So wrong in fact that I'm still irritated by it days later.  This is more an issue of principle than anything so it may seem a little meh to some people but I don't care at this point.

I made a thread asking for a fighting alternative to SFIV if I already played games like MK and SC a lot.  I pretty much concluded that I should try Tekken like I assumed from the beginning.  But I digress.  This may get into the state of fighting games and it probably will because SFIV is a perfect example of what's wrong with the genre.  It's actually not as bad off as people make it out to be, but it's not healthy either.

The one thing that SFIV does that really pisses me off to no end is that focuses on the higher end of the fighting game spectrum and leaves you hanging.  What?  Let me explain.  For years people have praised Street Fighter for elevating the genre beyond it's simple beginnings into something much more substantial.  However because we no longer live in the area of the arcade, the assumption that people coming in to play the game already know what's going on must go.  It's also the issue with the RTS genre which is making much better progress it seems.  I am fully capable of most, if not all the moves in probably any fighting game.  I've played enough Street Fighter IV to know that it's a great game and one I am capable of eventually learning.  I have committed many hours to learning Scorpion in every MK game and Mitsurugi in every SC along with being proficient in a few others.  The issue of capability isn't one at all.

It really comes down to how SFIV doesn't do anything to compliment the fact that the meat of the game is above the basic moves the game provides you.  I got the impression that the game didn't want me to get it, it just wanted those people who already knew how to play.  Now I know the game is different from other Street Fighters so everyone had to learn new moves but it's a much different story if you've never played a SF game before.

If a game takes the complicated approach but doesn't do anything to help that, what am I supposed to think?  Good job let me dive right in?  It's like giving a kid a Calculus 1 textbook who has never taken it before, and telling him to just 'go".  Anyone can probably put the work in, take the time, and learn the subject matter, but that's not how it should be done.  There should be something more than the Challenge Mode to teach people how to play.  It shouldn't spoon feed you everything, but it surely doesn't do anything more than giving you grocery money for the week.

The more and more I think about it, the more I understand where people are coming from when they say they don't play fighting games.  I don't blame them for having that perception of them being too technical, too complicated, or just too much.  It's partly true but when the game itself and the surrounding culture (ie all the players of a game like SFIV) reinforce it to a certain degree, no wonder progress is slow.  Don't get me wrong, I love fighting games, and I bet I could love Street Fighter if I was familiar with it, but it shouldn't be mandatory.  Either what I consider the low end (basic moves and gameplay) needs to be fleshed out, or I need to get to the high end in a fun or meaningful way.  If the game makes no effort to get me where I should be, why would try and meet it halfway when it won't?  At that point, I'll just play another game.

But the usual response to this is, "do your homework and you'll get better".  At what point am I paying money for work?  An article on The Escapist talked about the state of the way video games teach players about mechanics, method, and theory.  It continues to come back in my head as I debate this...in my head.  The burden is on the developer to make the game either engaging to learn, or a diverse range so people of all interest levels can see a good game.  I can't help but think the phrase "fan service" when a game expects you to know how to play if it take the more complex route.  Extreme examples are BlazBlue and Arma II.

In the end I'll get a decent controller for my PC, try again, learn the game just fine, and enjoy it just fine.  But at the back of my mind, it angers me beyond reason the means I need to get to that desired end.  I want to yell at the game, "I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO IT THIS WAY!" followed my many expletives.  This post may seem like a bunch of hot air to someone who is familiar with the franchise, but as a newcomer to SF, I find it seems to resonate with people in the same boat. 

I think I finally need to just put this in writing as opposed to running around my house yelling to myself.  I recently played Street Fighter IV having never played a Street Fighter game thinking this is finally going to be the game to get into that genre.  Wrong.  So wrong in fact that I'm still irritated by it days later.  This is more an issue of principle than anything so it may seem a little meh to some people but I don't care at this point.

I made a thread asking for a fighting alternative to SFIV if I already played games like MK and SC a lot.  I pretty much concluded that I should try Tekken like I assumed from the beginning.  But I digress.  This may get into the state of fighting games and it probably will because SFIV is a perfect example of what's wrong with the genre.  It's actually not as bad off as people make it out to be, but it's not healthy either.

The one thing that SFIV does that really pisses me off to no end is that focuses on the higher end of the fighting game spectrum and leaves you hanging.  What?  Let me explain.  For years people have praised Street Fighter for elevating the genre beyond it's simple beginnings into something much more substantial.  However because we no longer live in the area of the arcade, the assumption that people coming in to play the game already know what's going on must go.  It's also the issue with the RTS genre which is making much better progress it seems.  I am fully capable of most, if not all the moves in probably any fighting game.  I've played enough Street Fighter IV to know that it's a great game and one I am capable of eventually learning.  I have committed many hours to learning Scorpion in every MK game and Mitsurugi in every SC along with being proficient in a few others.  The issue of capability isn't one at all.

It really comes down to how SFIV doesn't do anything to compliment the fact that the meat of the game is above the basic moves the game provides you.  I got the impression that the game didn't want me to get it, it just wanted those people who already knew how to play.  Now I know the game is different from other Street Fighters so everyone had to learn new moves but it's a much different story if you've never played a SF game before.

If a game takes the complicated approach but doesn't do anything to help that, what am I supposed to think?  Good job let me dive right in?  It's like giving a kid a Calculus 1 textbook who has never taken it before, and telling him to just 'go".  Anyone can probably put the work in, take the time, and learn the subject matter, but that's not how it should be done.  There should be something more than the Challenge Mode to teach people how to play.  It shouldn't spoon feed you everything, but it surely doesn't do anything more than giving you grocery money for the week.

The more and more I think about it, the more I understand where people are coming from when they say they don't play fighting games.  I don't blame them for having that perception of them being too technical, too complicated, or just too much.  It's partly true but when the game itself and the surrounding culture (ie all the players of a game like SFIV) reinforce it to a certain degree, no wonder progress is slow.  Don't get me wrong, I love fighting games, and I bet I could love Street Fighter if I was familiar with it, but it shouldn't be mandatory.  Either what I consider the low end (basic moves and gameplay) needs to be fleshed out, or I need to get to the high end in a fun or meaningful way.  If the game makes no effort to get me where I should be, why would try and meet it halfway when it won't?  At that point, I'll just play another game.

But the usual response to this is, "do your homework and you'll get better".  At what point am I paying money for work?  An article on The Escapist talked about the state of the way video games teach players about mechanics, method, and theory.  It continues to come back in my head as I debate this...in my head.  The burden is on the developer to make the game either engaging to learn, or a diverse range so people of all interest levels can see a good game.  I can't help but think the phrase "fan service" when a game expects you to know how to play if it take the more complex route.  Extreme examples are BlazBlue and Arma II.

In the end I'll get a decent controller for my PC, try again, learn the game just fine, and enjoy it just fine.  But at the back of my mind, it angers me beyond reason the means I need to get to that desired end.  I want to yell at the game, "I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO IT THIS WAY!" followed my many expletives.  This post may seem like a bunch of hot air to someone who is familiar with the franchise, but as a newcomer to SF, I find it seems to resonate with people in the same boat. 

Not to be a troll, but a number of people I've talked to who played Soulcalibur just don't "get" Street Fighter (IV). You either like it or you don't. The game is relatively simple to learn, but it sounds like you are trying to over-complicate it by thinking about it too much. 2D Fighters use hit boxes which aren't always completely perfect, and the game is a slightly complex game of rock, paper, scissors.

I don't understand what you're complaining about. It tells you how to do the moves, it tells you how to do some combos and you can learn a bunch more by going online and fighting people. What exactaly do you want the game to do? Make it easier to do moves or something? I don't understand what exactaly your problem is with the game.

" Not to be a troll, but a number of people I've talked to who played Soulcalibur just don't "get" Street Fighter (IV). You either like it or you don't. The game is relatively simple to learn, but it sounds like you are trying to over-complicate it by thinking about it too much. 2D Fighters use hit boxes which aren't always completely perfect, and the game is a slightly complex game of rock, paper, scissors. "

@ scooper
The problem with the challenge mode is that while it does tell you the button inputs it doesn't tell you anything about the timing.  So though it does give you help learning combos, for a beginner using the challenge mode to learn combos you not only have to figure out the timing but you must then practice the timing until you master it.  The challenge mode could give some hints about the timing and that would make learning the game much easier.   I don't want the moves to be easier to do, I just want more help with the timing.

Well the thing with SF4 community and the fighting game community is that they do try to help you out, kinda.

Just like our own SF4 guides,

lordofultima wrote a nice guide on the only character he knows how to play

and you got the clusterfuck of everybody giving thier two cents here

the most interesting one IMO is this one, but it doesn't seem finished and the author seems to have taken off for the summer


Either way you can't expect to be Daigo good without putting a buttload of time in but after reading some of these guides I don't see how you cannot have fun trying to go for the mindgame and simple moves if you cannot complete a combo.

remember this, you can pay money for a real expensive sportscar but that doesn't mean you know how to drive it.

" @ scooperThe problem with the challenge mode is that while it does tell you the button inputs it doesn't tell you anything about the timing.  So though it does give you help learning combos, for a beginner using the challenge mode to learn combos you not only have to figure out the timing but you must then practice the timing until you master it.  The challenge mode could give some hints about the timing and that would make learning the game much easier.   I don't want the moves to be easier to do, I just want more help with the timing. "

" I want the game to actually teach me how to play instead of giving me a waste of time disguised as a tutorial, which is essentially what the Challenge Mode is to anyone who actually needs to learn.  This is just the gripe of a newcomer and as far as teaching a new player how to really play the game, SFIV fails horribly.I just found SFIV more complicated than its own good given the fact that it does nothing more that give you a list of moves and tells you to get to steppin'.  That's not good enough for someone like me and it irked me in principle. "

" I want the game to actually teach me how to play instead of giving me a waste of time disguised as a tutorial, which is essentially what the Challenge Mode is to anyone who actually needs to learn.  This is just the gripe of a newcomer and as far as teaching a new player how to really play the game, SFIV fails horribly.I just found SFIV more complicated than its own good given the fact that it does nothing more that give you a list of moves and tells you to get to steppin'.  That's not good enough for someone like me and it irked me in principle. "

Don't worry I think SF is a relic of a bygone era also. I prefer my game with a smoking barrel on the end.

" @thatpinguino said:

" @ scooperThe problem with the challenge mode is that while it does tell you the button inputs it doesn't tell you anything about the timing.  So though it does give you help learning combos, for a beginner using the challenge mode to learn combos you not only have to figure out the timing but you must then practice the timing until you master it.  The challenge mode could give some hints about the timing and that would make learning the game much easier.   I don't want the moves to be easier to do, I just want more help with the timing. "

Fair enough, it would be nice to see a computer controlled character perform the move with a bunch of stuff on screen telling you the buttons he's using and when he's using them. I guess that's the stuff you have to just figure out. For instance some Hard Trials are simply like 2 or 3 medium punches in a row but some people find that one the hardest to do because they just tap the button as fast as they can. You just got to experiment or check out some videos. "

" @Scooper said:

" @thatpinguino said:

" @ scooperThe problem with the challenge mode is that while it does tell you the button inputs it doesn't tell you anything about the timing.  So though it does give you help learning combos, for a beginner using the challenge mode to learn combos you not only have to figure out the timing but you must then practice the timing until you master it.  The challenge mode could give some hints about the timing and that would make learning the game much easier.   I don't want the moves to be easier to do, I just want more help with the timing. "

Fair enough, it would be nice to see a computer controlled character perform the move with a bunch of stuff on screen telling you the buttons he's using and when he's using them. I guess that's the stuff you have to just figure out. For instance some Hard Trials are simply like 2 or 3 medium punches in a row but some people find that one the hardest to do because they just tap the button as fast as they can. You just got to experiment or check out some videos. "

I still am baffled that the hard trials do not provide a cpu example. What the fuck is that about? Yeah it tells you what to do, but some of the harder combos require seeing the moves in motion. I love the game, but that is unacceptable in my opinion. "

I don't accept the idea that SFIV is friendly to anyone other than Street Fighter fans/players.  It's a shame that it leaves newcomers outside and doing the work just to get up to speed when I've enjoyed fighting games in the past is just...meh.  I have better things to do with my time ya know?  Playing Street Fighter makes me want to try other fighting games and really define what games I do and don't like but I just haven't tried them.  I guess I learned my lesson about SF the hard way.

" I don't accept the idea that SFIV is friendly to anyone other than Street Fighter fans/players. "

" I want the game to actually teach me how to play instead of giving me a waste of time disguised as a tutorial, which is essentially what the Challenge Mode is to anyone who actually needs to learn.  This is just the gripe of a newcomer and as far as teaching a new player how to really play the game, SFIV fails horribly.I just found SFIV more complicated than its own good given the fact that it does nothing more that give you a list of moves and tells you to get to steppin'.  That's not good enough for someone like me and it irked me in principle.I did actually read some of the guides on the site and learned about stuff like Focus canceling and such.  But I shouldn't have to go and research how to block a move. "

" I don't accept the idea that SFIV is friendly to anyone other than Street Fighter fans/players.  It's a shame that it leaves newcomers outside and doing the work just to get up to speed when I've enjoyed fighting games in the past is just...meh.  I have better things to do with my time ya know?  Playing Street Fighter makes me want to try other fighting games and really define what games I do and don't like but I just haven't tried them.  I guess I learned my lesson about SF the hard way. "

" @Tuffgong said:

" I don't accept the idea that SFIV is friendly to anyone other than Street Fighter fans/players.  It's a shame that it leaves newcomers outside and doing the work just to get up to speed when I've enjoyed fighting games in the past is just...meh.  I have better things to do with my time ya know?  Playing Street Fighter makes me want to try other fighting games and really define what games I do and don't like but I just haven't tried them.  I guess I learned my lesson about SF the hard way. "

Street Fighter is extremely accessible, are we playing the same game? I have not played a proper Street Fighter for a few years prior to playing SFIV...yet somehow I am managing. It is ok to suck at something, but blaming the game for lack of ability is kind of retarded. Did you expect to to breeze through championship mode with just a basic skill set? Like everything else in life, you have to put some effort into it if you want to succeed. Jesus Christ, I am sounding preachy. Damn you. "

Summary?

I love the people who think I don't know how to play fighting games or how to do a Hadouken.  I can do Sagat's Ultra manually (by physically pressing the low, medium, and high buttons at the same time) if that's a benchmark for what I'm capable of.  I thought maybe in this day and age I wouldn't have to research online in order to know what to do in a video game.  The game gives you the what, but it doesn't give you the why.  Again, this is an argument in principle and isn't really about the pragmatic here.  I needed to get his off my chest and I'm glad I did. 

Did anyone here never play a SF game before, pick it up, and had fun learning to get to things like focus canceling?  What I got from the game is a lack of motivation to want to learn.  With a game like SFIV, if I ignore the theory and just stick to the basics, that's missing the point and I would rather just play another fighting game.

I don't know, I just get the sense that this game isn't made for someone who's never touched an arcade stick or played a SF game.  Oh well.  And to think I had such high hopes but I'm glad I learned something.  I'll leave you alone now.

This really does sound like you don't like SFIV because you're bad at it.

I think the sooner you can understand that SFIV works essentially like rock, paper, scissors, the more liklehood you'll understand how the game works. Street Fighter ain't Soulcalibur, and it ain't Tekken. It plays differently. Understand that you're anti-air will never counter Ryu's jumping fierce. You need to understand the priority of the moves of whatever character you're playing or else you will get rocked. The game is about zone management and playing the entire screen.

" @Stang said:

" @Tuffgong said:

" I don't accept the idea that SFIV is friendly to anyone other than Street Fighter fans/players.  It's a shame that it leaves newcomers outside and doing the work just to get up to speed when I've enjoyed fighting games in the past is just...meh.  I have better things to do with my time ya know?  Playing Street Fighter makes me want to try other fighting games and really define what games I do and don't like but I just haven't tried them.  I guess I learned my lesson about SF the hard way. "

Street Fighter is extremely accessible, are we playing the same game? I have not played a proper Street Fighter for a few years prior to playing SFIV...yet somehow I am managing. It is ok to suck at something, but blaming the game for lack of ability is kind of retarded. Did you expect to to breeze through championship mode with just a basic skill set? Like everything else in life, you have to put some effort into it if you want to succeed. Jesus Christ, I am sounding preachy. Damn you. "

If you can't figure out how Street Fighter IV works, then maybe you shouldn't be playing fighting games at all. Street Fighter is probably the most basic fighting game to ever exist. "

It's still not difficult to understand. Those who are experts are experts on understanding priority and proper zoning of the screen. If you master those two you understand the entire game.

And no offense, we're talking about Street Fighter IV here, not Virtua Fighter 5, which essentially has a brick wall for a learning curve.

" It's still not difficult to understand. Those who are experts are experts on understanding priority and proper zoning of the screen. If you master those two you understand the entire game. "

" @Napalm said:

" @Stang said:

" @Tuffgong said:

" I don't accept the idea that SFIV is friendly to anyone other than Street Fighter fans/players.  It's a shame that it leaves newcomers outside and doing the work just to get up to speed when I've enjoyed fighting games in the past is just...meh.  I have better things to do with my time ya know?  Playing Street Fighter makes me want to try other fighting games and really define what games I do and don't like but I just haven't tried them.  I guess I learned my lesson about SF the hard way. "

Street Fighter is extremely accessible, are we playing the same game? I have not played a proper Street Fighter for a few years prior to playing SFIV...yet somehow I am managing. It is ok to suck at something, but blaming the game for lack of ability is kind of retarded. Did you expect to to breeze through championship mode with just a basic skill set? Like everything else in life, you have to put some effort into it if you want to succeed. Jesus Christ, I am sounding preachy. Damn you. "

If you can't figure out how Street Fighter IV works, then maybe you shouldn't be playing fighting games at all. Street Fighter is probably the most basic fighting game to ever exist. "

It's not that he doesn't understand it, fighting games are some of the simplest games to understand on a basic level.  I feel that what he is saying is that a good chunk of those playing the game have been since SF2, and they have a wealth of knowledge that no newcomer can just pick up and feel as though they are doing well at the game.  If you're being destroyed in every match you play, do you really want to keep playing.  Most likely not, maybe you're still having fun and maybe you're inspired to get better, but you probably feel that you don't understand the game and would rather move on to something you'll do reasonably well at from the start.I really don't think Tuffgong is saying "Oh god SFIV is so terrible, I don't get it, what's a QFC."  It's more that those playing understand the game at such an expert level that a new player has to bust through a massive brick wall to even feel slightly competent to the others playing. "

" @MB: I know it does and in a way that's the point.  Sure I'm bad at it, but the process of getting good doesn't seem right to me.  Maybe I expected to be motivated to learn the same way I was with Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur.  At the end of the day, it just bugs me, that's all.  After the separate forum topic and blog post, it's kinda hard to put into words but I think I got it all out there. "

" To me at least, the process of getting good at SFIV is work and not work I'm willing to do because there's nothing to make it engaging or fun.I had to stop myself twice from changing the above statement because it I couldn't put it any better.  That's my issue with SFIV as a newcomer to the series and I can happily say I've accomplished what I set out to do.  That is to put my finger on what was bugging me and put it into words. "

SF4 is a game where you really have to earn every win.   In my opinion there's nothing more fun or rewarding than this.

This again? Well I said my bit in your other thread in general, and again in a very similar thread a while before that. Not repeating it here.

I enjoy both SC4 and SF4 and I understand exactly where this frustration is coming from.

SC4 is more of a modern fighting game. I am by no means an expert at that but I've noticed that you will get a lot more enjoyment and cool moves out of that game by simply button mashing and that can actually work to your advantage in a certain fights. Fundamentally what I mean by it being modern is that it's learning curve is shorter.

SF4 is a lot more like old school games where you just had to replay the shit out of the difficult levels in order to memorize the right patterns. It's the same with SF4, you need to play the crap out of that game, and I'm not only referring to matches but the challenges as well. Bear in mind I am no expert at this one either. I can manage to pull of some simpler 2 or 3 move combos/juggles with one or two players but that is it at the moment. And instead of getting annoyed at some awesome player getting Perfect against me online I do my best to be amazed and inspired. I think maybe if SF4 had a few low level achievements/trophies for suffering Perfect defeats or 15 hit combos it would be a slight incouragement (maybe it does?). I think what is keeping me from hating SF4 is the nostalgia factor along with the variety in the character selections. If worst comes to worst I select Ruy and do fireballs all night long.

The bottom line is that some of us "gamers" are just VERY sore loosers and we'll just hate the crap out of a game that keeps kicking us in the nuts. We've gotten used to the modern "friendly" games of today where you can select different levels of difficulty or unlock addons and upgrades.

There's nothing wrong with putting yourself through the process of winning, losing, and learning a game because that's a part of every game.  However in other games I'm motivated to keep going, to learn the game, to get better, or see the end.  With SFIV, it just doesn't give me that.  It just plops itself down in front of me and says "go" and I don't want that, especially as a newcomer.  What people don't get about that, I don't know.  The few people who have posted something helpful were a great help. 

I was reluctant to call SFIV a dinosaur or of a bygone era given the fans of this game, but a few others have mentioned it now and I can at least partly if not wholly agree.  I did get the sense that this isn't what a modern game should be.  But that's purely just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to heed that.

Well, the issue is with you, the player, not the game.

Well if I was already familiar with SF, then I wouldn't have this problem now would I?  However because I am a newcomer, I found this roadblock that others who already played SF didn't have.  It's really just SFIV not being friendly to a person in my position that's all.  It's a great game, especially for those who know the in's and out's of the series.

Unless people want to keep dragging this topic, I've said and read enough now that it's no longer bugging me.