At this point we are all aware of the "anti SJW" segment of the internet. With the leaks of the last of us part 2's story, indications of transgender characters and lesbian leads had some fans outraged even more than the original announcement and I won't repeat what they've said here. What I'm interested to know is what sense people have for how much of the audience this makes up.

These people shout very loudly and are vocal about "politics invading my videogames", and it's incredibly disheartening. I don't know if they're really the majority.

No Spoilers. We don't need to post any of the leaked content here.

I didn't read any of this before hand, but I guess now I know so I will give my 1 cent. We already knew the main character was a lesbian so I didn't really care about that. The trans crap is a bit weirder to me though. Why does this have to be in a video game? Does it really add anything important to the story? Also would people really care about something like that during a zombie apocalypse? Seems like it would be the last thing to worry about.

I know this sounds a bit harsh to say, but wouldn't they realistically be more worried about the survival of the human race? Realistically every female would be almost required to have children. Or you know... we would go extinct and all...

@casepb: please go away.

@casepb: wow. That entire post is a yikes-and-a-half. Way to prove OP's point, I guess.


I don't think they're the majority, but I don't think that means they can't have a negative effect on our hobby. Because it doesn't take a majority of people to harass or abuse anyone.

@casepb: Yo maybe step away and think about the things you are saying a bit more.

I like to think the people who are actually upset at the inclusion of a trans character are certainly not a majority. The people who are upset about the apparent story direction though... Yeah there's a whole lot of them, no doubt some of them are lashing out and throwing shade where they shouldn't.

I sought out the spoilers when I saw the general reaction and it's made me much less enthusiastic about the game now but the trans/lesbian stuff doesn't matter to me at all. The folk spouting hate are just a small subsection of the backlash.

I have not read these leaks. I'm not a mega fan, but it bummed me out when I heard not only details of the sequel were vomited onto the internet (ew, how tacky), but that some people were already bitching. It's impossible to adequately contextualize a video game story before you've experienced it as intended, so I am on the fence until I can critique it first-hand. I have no idea why anyone would read leaks like that and then complain. What an unnatural way to peer behind the curtain at Naughty Dog's vision. Anyone who devours info this way and ends up feeling burned by it has no one to blame but themselves. They'll possibly never know if they would have enjoyed the revelations they're currently objecting to under the ideal conditions. Some people can read spoilers and it enhances the experience for them, I get it, but...this is a bit weirder.

Regarding numbers: I bet the amount of people who think inserting very modern social or cultural themes into the things they like is 'outrageous' or 'unrealistic' is relatively low. I'm only guessing, but I'd say it's definitely less then half of the LoU fanbase, if that, whether it be because they are opposed to said things, or think it's something that feels artificial and motivated by the writers' beliefs rather than natural character development.

One of those reasons at least has the possibility of being discussed reasonably and intelligently; it doesn't require intolerant views or knee-jerk backlash to question whether writing decisions may have been made for reasons that weren't to do with what was best for the story, but as a platform for a personal crusade or something. It happens -- sometimes it even makes art better -- but there isn't enough to go on to say one way or another, so it's insanely premature to draw any conclusions so soon.

I don't know... Even though I find the topic interesting, it doesn't apply to my personality. It's hard for me because I accept art for what it is and either like it or dislike it based on only one thing: my opinion of its quality. Not what it is, but how it is. I'm the same with people, so it's hard for me to quantify something that is totally opposite to me.

I detest The Last of Us 1's story on paper; I think it's clichéd and a hodge podge of better works, but the acting, characters and setting are masterfully done and make it work when interwoven. It would make no sense for me to bitch about its story if I hadn't digested it in relation to the rest of other vital components. The story is only a skeleton when you can't see the flesh.

I trust in creative peoples' visions, so let's judge how well they've developed these character arcs when we can actually play the game. Who knows, maybe I'll agree that the writing decisions were politically motivated or suck, maybe I won't, but...I haven't played it yet.

From what I've read about the spoilers, it seems that the game story is more centred around the characters drama and their sexual orientation than what everyone loved game for which is the survival drama.

Their remarks remind me of the DLC which i didn't like at all and i'm now really afraid that part 2 is more of that.

I'm skimming anything even remotely related to TLoU2 at this point so I've only taken in some very broad strokes from your post and one or two news articles that got a little too fast and loose with what's going on...basically I now know there's a trans character somewhere and that the perspective might change at some point. The former, well, people aren't just going to forget about gender identity because of a pandemic - we see that now. And the latter sounds pretty typical of a sequel to a game that also featured a perspective change at a pivotal moment in the story.

As for anything else? I have a hard time getting worked up about something I haven't seen. Broadly knowing what got changed about FFVII I figured I might find it annoying and needlessly difficult for the project it was attached to, but in practice I was far more annoyed by the need to fight the mini-boss fights and watch all the cutscenes involving those story alterations before getting to the actual boss fight each time I failed. I lost to the final boss four or five times, and that run up to the fight takes 15-20 minutes, so that really sucked a lot more than changing a story I only vaguely remember from 20 years ago.

@giant_gamer: ummmmm what?

The entire reason that TLOU was critically acclaimed was because of the character drama. Yes, gosh it must have been so uncomfortable to find out two characters were gay and had a relationship together. That must have been the wooooorst.

Decided to see what was so bad about the spoilers and... wow. Yeah I'm out. Fuck this game. I will indeed go away.

100%- your post is put very well and i'm largely in agreement.

the notion that anyone would begin to preemptively assess TLoU2 based on leaks (without having experienced the game first hand) is ridiculous. it's true- it might end up being awful. but unless you've played it, i really don't care what you have to say.

personally- the entirety of TLoU's success rests upon the outstanding character work present in that first game. that's the end result of a collaboration between devs, writers, and actors- and it all came together to produce meaningful characters with significant development and impact. there was nuance and attention to detail such that i [SPOILERS FOR THE FIRST GAME]frequently rewatch this scene just to take in all the facial tics, voice inflection and dialogue again.

with the release of that 'kiss' trailer (violent gameplay aside)- the dev team has demonstrated that, at least for the trailer, they're still prioritizing that kind of character work. so between that and the first game, for me, they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

also- for those that played the first game- can you imagine reading the 'giraffe' scene as a bullet point, or watching it for the first time out of context? for many that is the emotional fulcrum of the entire game, and in isolation or without context it's utterly meaningless.

so yeah, could be terrible. but i'll figure that out myself after launch and then we can discuss it on these forums :)

@kemuri07: it's not about that. It was to me like watching a children show, i understand the there are people who care about it but i don't and i can't relate to it.

The survival drama is what made this game highly acclaimed but that's your opinion.

@giant_gamer: The original game was pretty universally acclaimed for its story over anything else, and it was definitely the characters, especially the relationship between Joel and Ellie, that carried that story.

You can feel different, but it is simply a fact that is what the majority praised the game for. There's no point in trying to create a revisionist history at this point. This is well known.

It was definitely Joel & Ellie's relationship and how/why it develops that made TLOU for me...

...

So I read the spoilers since that stuff really doesn't bother me, and i'm glad I did since it will save me $60 as I no longer want to play the game.

If the leaks are true I will have the same problem with this game as I did with God of War 3. After loving the first 2 games I just couldn't get behind the 3rd because the character of Kratos was not likable. Not that he was ever a good guy, but the 3rd game pushed it too far for me, ending the world for a family beef was just eye rolly and I couldn't get behind the character anymore. I feel most of the backlash is on this side of the fence, at least I've read more about the hate of the actual plot rather than any LBGTQ inclusion.

Why would anyone read spoilers for this game? It makes no sense. Just wait for the game.

I'm bummed that people are already pissed off and arguing about a game no one's played yet. It's like Death Stranding all over again.

@zeik: Exactly, total strangers who develop their relationship to something that resembles a father/daughter relationship is one of moments that we'll all remember when we talk about this game. Still, this is not the main theme and selling idea that was placed on the Blue-ray cover. The story of the game was about a survivors struggle across a country post fungus outbreak which no one has ever done before.

A lot of assholes will be mad about Ellie being gay or whatever, those are the usual loud angry idiots that get mad about just about anything. There are some very real concerns about Part 2 being able to stick it's landing, though. If some people are getting mad about the spoilers, yes it's out of context, but it could be that the spoiler have added to that fear that Naughty Dog just shouldn't have done a direct sequel at all. It's a sentiment I've seen around plenty both before and after the spoilers leaked.

The Last of Us 1 is a complete contained story with a lot of ambiguity and room for interpretation, making a direct sequel to that is by nature going to be controversial since it has to remove ambiguity and comment on the previous entry. I can't comment directly since I luckily remain unspoiled, but that has always been my main concern since the sequel was announced, the anthology route would have been more interesting to me because it leaves the original to stand on it's own. It's not impossible to stick the land, it's just really hard and while The Last of Us was good, it wasn't so good that I have complete faith in them pulling it off, since it does have it's moments of awkward writing.

I'm just afraid Last of Us Part 2 is shaping up to be another culture war like The Last Jedi, where misogynists and racists completely ruin the conversation around the movie/game, and it certainly won't help with this leak letting it all run wild without context so far ahead of the release.

@giant_gamer: Whether or not it was intentionally the main theme or not, that's not what the broader player base ending up latching on to.

I would argue it is was entirely intentional though, since that's ultimately what the ending was about. The survival aspect was almost completely irrelevant by the end. It was all about Joel and Ellie's relationship. It may have started out as a survival story, but it evolved into a character story pretty quickly.

Also saying no one has ever done the survival side of it is definitely over selling it. They're just zombies. They gave them a slightly different origin than we're used to, with a few interesting quirks, but their role in the story is identical to basically every other zombie story out there. If they hadn't filled the game with memorable and interesting characters it would have frankly been little more than yet another zombie that was ultimately forgotten. Or at least not as well regarded as it was and is.

@zeik: Yes, Characters!

The game had great characters all around, even the giraffe had big round of applause from us. So, it's not just Jole and Ellie. Also, i can't remember a game about fungus outbreak let alone a post apocalyptic one, so it's definitely new in this regard.

Without the drama in the game it would be pretty much an RE clone with fungus instead. This is why the game is a survival drama.

Lastly, players gets attached to main characters pretty quick in video games so your feelings are quite understandable. Characters like Agent47 and Master Chief have a large fan base even though they are not as fleshed out and well presented as Joel and Ellie.

@colonel_pockets: For me, the reaction to the spoilers got me worried. Checked them out and now I'm in a better position to make an informed purchasing decision for myself, avoiding wasting money on a game I won't like. I'd say that makes plenty of sense.

I'm not saying the game will be terrible but there are parts I really don't wanna see and sure as shit don't wanna play. Now I don't have to put myself through it.

I sincerely hope the folks that play it enjoy it, I'm not trying to convince anyone not to, it's just not for me.

@brackstone: I haven't been spoiled. That said, I truly hope this doesn't turn into The Last Jedi caliber of discussion, because unfortunately I was of the opinion that thought it was a series ending movie that trivialized everything about the franchise with absurd mary sue character development choices that were made. I've only seen bad faith arguments defending TLJ and ad hominem attacks about the critic - if you have any otherwise I'd be interested in them. I'd wager that movie and the conversation around it as responsible for as many "red pill" moments as anything in the last few years. The defense of that movie is truly bizaare, almost every conversation around it feels like false flag attacks from both sides trying to escalate to the level of absurdity, obviously ending (or starting, in some cases) in accusations of racism.

If you play out that logic from the opposing viewpoint, don't you think you made the counter argument? Why *would* anyone care about what people choose to do with their bodies during a zombie apocalypse? Why would people waste their valuable time and resources to hate or harm others?

My take:

The original stood well on its own. I don't need to play another zombie game no matter how well it may be put together.

@casepb said:

Yeah, this is the kind of thing I was talking about.

Edit: To properly respond. Someone's identity isn't just a luxury for when times are good. Get to know some trans people, learn some compassion. Also I'd rather humans go extinct than pressure/force women to breed to continue the human race. I would be actively fighting against it.

This is about the people who are enraged about trans and gay characters. Not the quality of the game.

I haven't dug into this at all for obvious reasons (i.e. I'd prefer not to know spoilers), but it sounds like you have. Is your impression that the majority of the outrage stems from people realizing there are trans and gay characters, or the quality of the storytelling people can discern from the leaks?

@casepb You can do anything in a work of fiction. Plus, as people now experienced in a pandemic, life carries on. Survival is not the exclusive focus on people's minds. They have work to get on with, shit to figure out, etc.

Fuck, I'm already trying to think about anything else bar the virus and I'm only six weeks in. The outbreak in TLOU has been going on for years. Plus this kind of fiction does love to get into characters. Just look at Telltale's The Walking Dead.

@north6: The stuff I have seen has been specifically about the "SJW agenda" of "Neil Cuckman". I haven't been reading the regular criticisms, even if some of that may be masking some prejudice. I'm not trying to mix the two. I'm sure there is plenty of criticism that has nothing to do with diversity.

@mellotronrules: Exactly. If you strip away the descriptive writing of a novel or the descriptive visuals of a movie/game, you get bulletpoints, which -- as you said -- are meaningless.

• Michael Corleone has Fredo killed.

Out of context, that may as well be a cinnamon bun recipe.

I was on the fence about getting Last of Us 2, because I’m not interested grim stories at the moment. That being said, I read the leaks and watched what is out there to judge for myself. Now keep in mind, that no one knows at what stage the game was at with these leaks, and I was under the impression that the game was delayed due to rewrites. So who knows what will be in the finished product. My opinion on the leeks? It is fucking bold the direction they’re going, and people would have been floored. Maybe in a good way, but probably not judging by the so far expressed nerd raging.

Now I worry that people will ignore how crazy the direction they went with a triple a game’s story was, in favor of being pedantic about inclusion. Which I should say, that the lady being called “trans“, could just be a muscular woman, as they haven’t stated that she is a transsexual... it doesn’t matter if she is though. It just doesn’t... well actually it does matter to trans people, because they are almost never represented in media (especially games), and when they are it’s in a very unflattering way.

The game is definitely going to be too dark for what I want right now, and if the stories of Naughty Dog being atrocious to their employees is true, then I’m not going to play the game. I will still say that the story is more interesting than I thought it was going to be, and I commend it for that.

Not really. Only a small percentage of the human race is gay/trans/so on. If that number is ten percent and a million humans are left on Earth, that's 900,000 straight people who are very likely to make a few babies at some point, especially considering the lack of things to entertain yourself with and the lack of easily-available contraception in the zombie apocalypse. Within a few generations, there would be at least a few major population centers around the world, provided civilization re-emerged and not barbaric tribalism. A trivial amount of time in the grand scheme of things.

And it's hardly unheard of for gay couples to want a child of their own to raise. Such a couple would be great candidates for the no doubt high number of orphans around Last of Us's world.

Meanwhile, a society that forces men and women to procreate would almost certainly be an extremely patriarchal, totalitarian, oppressive place replete with violence and desperation - something The Last of Us's world already has plenty of. That would be humanity getting back on its feet in a way that sets us back hundreds of years in terms of women's rights. Hardly ideal for anyone that isn't the tiny, tiny, tiny handful of people on top of that particular food chain.

EDIT: On a different topic entirely:

Why does this have to be in a video game? Does it really add anything important to the story?

Why can't it be in a video game? I haven't read the script so if this is a game that parades itself around saying "Look at us, so inclusive!", that'd be pretty irritating, but from the trailer with the lesbian kiss, my impression was that The Last of Us 2 would be presenting this stuff matter-of-factly. She's got a romantic interest in another woman, *shrugs shoulders*.

Leaks are what they are and boiling them down to bullet points definitely detracts a ton of gravitas and pathos from the scenes where these points happen.

That being said, count me among the people who really loved TLoU as a self contained package and definitely did not want a sequel. That games ending is fantastic and anything following it would sully it, and after reading the leaks that's exactly what happened. It sounds wholly unnecessary as a follow up and the theme & moral they are going for is very simplistic and one note.

I don't have a stake in this because I was never going to play it on principal, but it's obvious people are going to be very upset about where this game goes story wise. I'm sure it will still review & sell well, but people might look back on it years after and wonder "why did they make this?".

I've read as much as I can and watched 12 leaked videos, though 3 of them were the same of the golf club scene, so really 10. So Juicy!

But also from what I've read, I know not all of the backlash is about trans or gay whatever, it is the golf club scene, where they did the GTA 5 thing

Making a sequel to this game to begin with was a mistake, for expectations and creatively. Nothing they could do could satisfy a lot of people and it was very well contained. But I am hardly surprised.

I was fine with looking at some spoiler stuff because I don't even think the first game is all that great (a good story and okay gameplay and more tired zombies, its a 7 for me). I'm not surprised some people are mad about it, the usual types. Thing is with them though, the game should have already lost you, especially with the last DLC. Just move on. If you think the market doesn't want trans representation or whatever, then shut up and let the market do the talking. I thought that's what you people were supposed to worship and be about and so let it talk for itself. You're doing all the same idpol shit you're bitching at (not that hypocrisy ever stops these people).

But not sure what the point of this thread is. If anyone does feel that way they are going to get shouted down (not defending them) and if they don't they are saying so, and its all anecdotal evidence. Until you see sales, if that's what you're talking, it doesn't matter and some posts on here aren't going to tell the story of the general public.

Don't overblow twitter trends or you'll think half the country is full blown Q Anon people or Bernie is going to walk into the presidency.

It looks and sounds fucking shite

Having been spoiled, it's a BOLD direction to take a video game that got much of its acclaim from the acting and dynamic between Joel and Ellie. That has NOTHING to do with Ellie's sexual orientation, or the fact that there maybe be a trans character though. Ellie is canonically gay, always has been, so people getting up in arms about it is silly. If they liked Ellie in TLoU 1, I can't imagine they'll dislike her here. If the trans character is who I think it, based on what I've read about the plot, her being trans shouldn't, in a decent world, be any reason to dislike her. That said, I kinda like where the plot seems to go (assuming we can believe the spoilers). It's a bold direction to take a beloved game, and there's always going to be something refreshing about that to me, even if it is a literal game changer as far as the original game and potential series is concerned. Creative risks are FUN :)

@thegoldfether: Duder, did you just do the thing OP said not to do? You just spoiled it didn't you? Fucking christ.

What was the point of this thread anyway? It felt like setting up a minefield for someone to wander into. Hoping this can just be locked.

I didn't like The Last of Us, so I went ahead and read the spoilers. It's largely what I expected from a sequel to the first game. Some of the twists seem more interesting than what they did in the first game, so that's nice.

@north6: Yeah... Pretty hard to see this thread ever going differently.

Locked or not, I enjoyed the thread very much. Very therapeutic, thanks Alister.

@sombre:

Agree. Fuck this game. Have 0 interest in it. When they announced Joel wouldn't be the main playable character a year ago I stopped caring. This is now at a point where I wouldn't even play if they paid me

Bad storytelling aside, I'm not interested in having Druckmann's woke agenda shoved down my throat. According him I guess that makes me a phobic piece of shit.

I don't get the backlash at all. It sounds more like people who aren't fans using a popular game to stick their finger in the wound of people fighting for more inclusiveness in gaming. I'm guessing 60 years ago, someone requesting a non-European descendant of one noticeable ethnicity to be in a film or tv show as a regular was seen as TOO SOON or what's the point there's less of them so why even bother catering to this demographic, insert SWJ insult or what you have it. The fact is I'm glad a big company is willing to take chances and insert such a risky taboo subject (taboo to the crowd angry at this, not me).

*edit - just went and pre-ordered the game*

My actual thoughts, since this is still unlocked. TLOU is one of the best games ever made, full stop. I'm fine with whatever story the team wants to tell, and am excited to play the game, regardless of spoilers. TLOU is an incredible gaming experience - one of a few that is allowed to flourish and become something else when played on the hardest difficulty, its genuinely pretty terrifying and the merits of the story often overshadow it. So yeah, very excited for everything about TLOU 2, whatever they want to do with the story I'm good with. Ellie seems super interesting, totally on board from what I've seen.

What I'm not at all excited about is the rumors around the payment of staff that apparently drove the leaker to execute this sabotage to cause maximum financial damage to the game and embarrassment to leadership. Regardless of anything else, it *will* cause a ton of financial harm to the game.

The subject matter in the game is inherently risky and I applaud them for this, and will go on a limb and suppose the vast majority of the devs were probably all on board with absorbing this sort of risk and backlash from the usual anti-SJW crew. I'd actually argue this is probably expected and planned for. What I *really* worry about is the apparent mismanagement or literal failure to pay team members all mixed in with the senior leadership's tendency to use social ideologies as willing or unwilling shields for arguably illegitimate purposes. This means, the "usual anti-SJW crew" will have a lot of valid criticism to mix in with the vomit that is usually spewed. It seems obvious how this will probably play out, will be exhausting to detangle, and is extremely unfortunate for those involved.

If the work *isn't* done to detangle this, then some long term damage will be done to diversity in video games; it will be far too straightforward for Naughty Dog leadership to shield themselves and their branding in the conveniences of the current politics and built in benefits thus provided. That said - I'm hoping either for someone at Sony or Naughty Dog to fall on their sword (unlikely) or games journalists to pick this apart and shine a light on what actually happened (more likely).