I have never played a PC game and so using my left hand to control the keyboard and my right hand for the mouse is super awkward. I don't know if I placed my hand correctly, but my thumb was constantly on shift (to stop moving when shooting my ranged weapons) and I used my index finger to hit TAB or W to switch between weapons and abilities. I only used mapped some items and spells to 1,2,3 because my finger only reached that far. I couldn't imaged placing my left hand in the correct typing position because it always hovers and moves all over the place when I type and keeping it stationary is hugely uncomfortable.

It seems like it would be quite simple to map stuff to a 360 controller so do these types of games have that option?

EDIT: Completely ignore my comment. It has been rendered invalid.

Your thumb was on shift? That does seem awkward. There is no set in stone way to use your hand on the keyboard; it largely depends on which keys you are using the most. I haven't played much of the beta yet, but in a game like this I usually have my fingers spread out near the number keys and I use my pinky to hit shift, my ring finger to hit tab and my thumb to hit just about anything else (map, skill cycle, etc.).

@golguin: Sadly you're going to have to get used to it. Unless Runic decides to port Torchlight 2 to XBLA, we're not going to see options for a controller any time soon. It's shitty I know, but you'll manage to get the hang of it before long.

@believer258 said:

Torchlight did it, but these sorts of games aren't really made for a controller.

That's just not true. Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance as well as the XBLA port of Torchlight are not only playable, but great games and exemplary of the dungeon crawl genre Diablo gave rise to. I could mention Sacred 2 which, while not a great game (even on PC) also showed that a controller works just fine for dungeon crawlers. I'm not sure where this attitude came from, especially considering I had way more fun with Torchlight on the Xbox than I did on PC.

So what kinds of positions exist for left hand keyboard only? Thinking about how I type this I realize that I use my elbows on my desk and thumbs on the bottom part of my keyboard to prop my hands up as I move across the keyboard. When I only have my left hand it doesn't feel as solid as having both hands on it. A quick google search and apparently my hands come in at the INCORRECT obtuse angle (below red wrong letters).

Since any positions feels awkward there must be some kind of consensus on what keys the left hand fingers should rest on since i doubt ASDF position would work.

I don't know how you would do it any other way than this:

Thumb on Shift??? Index finger on TAB??? How?!! What monstrous hands do you have?

@DeF said:

I don't know how you would do it any other way than this:

Thumb on Shift??? Index finger on TAB??? How?!! What monstrous hands do you have?

That does seem pretty good except for the pinkie finger hitting shift and ctrl, which isn't happening unless I move my fingers off of the 1234 rest point. Would I be able to remap keys to other closer keys or does every key get used in these types of games.

@golguin: I don't think you even need CTRL. Your pink should rest naturally on SHIFT if your ring, middle and index finger rest on 1,2 and 3 respectively. Your middle finger hits W or Q (heal in D3), your ring finger hits TAB (switching weapon set) , the index finger should be able to reach F and T easily (follower and town portal quick select in Diablo 3).

When you're typing, your pinky should already be positioned on SHIFT, (for me) it stays in the exact same position for any PC game actually, no matter if it's an MMO/Diablo-style game or a 3rd Person or FPS game where I'm using WASD to move. Pinky = always on shift.

Thumb on Shift??? Index finger on TAB??? How?!! What monstrous hands do you have?

@mmzOne said:

@DeF said:

Thumb on Shift??? Index finger on TAB??? How?!! What monstrous hands do you have?

Something like this maybe:

He said in his opening post he uses his left hand for the keyboard.

@mmzOne said:

@DeF said:

Thumb on Shift??? Index finger on TAB??? How?!! What monstrous hands do you have?

Something like this maybe:

That would be really good if I was left handed, but I was just clawing the left side of my keyboard. It's like clawing a controller with your right hand (the side of your index finger pushes face buttons as your thumb holds down others). Left hand on left side of keyboard with thump resting on shift. Index finger around the 1,2,Q,W region. From there I was able to hit the important keys, or at least the keys the demo let me know about.

Having pinkie on shift while my other fingers are on the numbers is a no go. I assume some of the reaching the fingers are expected to do (unless the hand moves around) is from playing these types of games for a while.

Did you really beat Torchlight 2, given that the game wasn't still officially released?

@golguin said:

Having pinkie on shift while my other fingers are on the numbers is a no go. I assume some of the reaching the fingers are expected to do (unless the hand moves around) is from playing these types of games for a while.

so you must have really small hands then? how are you hitting SHIFT when you type then? I have a hard time visualizing it.

@Jeust said:

Did you really beat Torchlight 2, given that the game wasn't still officially released?

there were new invites for the Beta this weekend, that's probably what he means.

@DeF said:

@golguin said:

Having pinkie on shift while my other fingers are on the numbers is a no go. I assume some of the reaching the fingers are expected to do (unless the hand moves around) is from playing these types of games for a while.

so you must have really small hands then? how are you hitting SHIFT when you type then? I have a hard time visualizing it.

@Jeust said:

Did you really beat Torchlight 2, given that the game wasn't still officially released?

there were new invites for the Beta this weekend, that's probably what he means.

Not small hands as much as my fingers aren't nimble. I can hit shift without moving my fingers from the stationary position, but I prefer to shift my hand down a bit so that the fingers touch the edge of ASDF. Just typing and looking down at my hands I can see that the majority of the time they are not anywhere near stationary position. My fingers kinda just fly around hitting the keys they need. It's only when I stop that they go back to asdf and jkl;.

As for the other dude asking about beating the game, I meant to say demo. I got an invite for the beta weekend, which ends on Tuesday I think.

Don't worry about having your hand planted on all the keys you are using. If you need to move your fingers off the number keys to get your pinky on shift, do it. It might take a little time to get used to getting your fingers back in to position, but it'll happen. Once you start to get a lot of abilities etc in a game like this, your hand moves around the keyboard a fair bit anyway. By the endgame of the first Torchlight, I was using at least 8 number keys, so my hand was moving around reasonably frequently.

@golguin said:

@DeF said:

@golguin said:

Having pinkie on shift while my other fingers are on the numbers is a no go. I assume some of the reaching the fingers are expected to do (unless the hand moves around) is from playing these types of games for a while.

so you must have really small hands then? how are you hitting SHIFT when you type then? I have a hard time visualizing it.

@Jeust said:

Did you really beat Torchlight 2, given that the game wasn't still officially released?

there were new invites for the Beta this weekend, that's probably what he means.

Not small hands as much as my fingers aren't nimble. I can hit shift without moving my fingers from the stationary position, but I prefer to shift my hand down a bit so that the fingers touch the edge of ASDF. Just typing and looking down at my hands I can see that the majority of the time they are not anywhere near stationary position. My fingers kinda just fly around hitting the keys they need. It's only when I stop that they go back to asdf and jkl;.

As for the other dude asking about beating the game, I meant to say demo. I got an invite for the beta weekend, which ends on Tuesday I think.

As with other games, the betas don't generally reflect faithfully the final game.

I haven't played Torchlight, but for Diablo 3 I left Q as the potion button, remapped the 1,2,3,4 buttons to W,E,R,T, moved the Town Portal button to Y and used SPACE instead of Shift for standing still. This left the "close all windows" button unmapped, but whatever.

How many buttons do you need to access and how often? Don't be afraid to really move things around if it would end up making you more comfortable in the long run.

@RockmanBionics said:

I haven't played Torchlight, but for Diablo 3 I left Q as the potion button, remapped the 1,2,3,4 buttons to W,E,R,T, moved the Town Portal button to Y and used SPACE instead of Shift for standing still. This left the "close all windows" button unmapped, but whatever.

How many buttons do you need to access and how often? Don't be afraid to really move things around if it would end up making you more comfortable in the long run.

aa that shift replacement seems like a good idea, is space mapped to anything else on diablo?

@golguin: I play a lot DOTA style games my hand just sits on QWER with my pinky on shift and thumb on space. It works for me but my best advice to you Is find some thing you find comfortable and usable and bind your keys to that it is a PC game so you can set the keys to what ever works for you.

Also most PC games action based games use WASD for movement and other nearby keys for every thing else.

@gamefreak9: In Diablo 3, Space is mapped to "close all windows" by default. It's not a big deal and I didn't even bother remapping it, but like I said I haven't played Torchlight 1 or 2 so I don't know how the controls differ from Diablo.

Pinkie on shift

Ring finger on A

Middle finger on W

Index finger on D

Thumb (always) on Space

Then pivot the fingers to their closest keys as needed.

For instance. You can move pinkie to CTRL and ring finger to TAB or Q or Z or 1. Middle can move to 2 or S or X.

The Index finger can be used on 3, 4, 5, 6, E, R, T, Y, F, G, H, C, V, B

@RockmanBionics: Well the main thing is Z and X use your biggest health pot or mana pot

You know, remapping is an option?

Wow, strange topic. Your normal resting position for gaming would be (pinky to thumb) shift, a, w, d and space. For arpgs though you probably end up moving your hand up to a position where you rest on shift/caps, q, 2/3, e and space. The most important tips I'd give you though is move your keyboard, not your hands. Find a comfortable resting position for your arm then position the keyboard accordingly. Also, for a comfortable position you want your elbow and wrist supported with your hand resting on the keyboard and as small as possible of an angle on your wrist. Personally I have good experience with keyboard in my lap and elbow resting on the armrest of my chair, but it depends on your chair ofc.

@golguin: Playing Diablo 3 and the original Torchlight, I've found that the most comfortable way for me, personally, is to rest my main digits on 1-2-3-4, and re-bind spacebar to be the character stop. You'd have to fiddle around with some other keybinds to make them more accessible, but the rest of the keyboard is fairly easy to reach if you pivot off of your digits, and Alt is right there.

Thanks for the input. It sounds like QWER is pretty promising since moving my fingers up feels more comfortable then curling my pinkie and ring finger down. Switching SHIFT for SPACEBAR also feels a lot better.

If to share my changes, I made Spacebar spell switcher for RMB, Tab weapon switch Q and W health and mana potion drinking (bottom of bind keys, drink best potion) and with shift for per, than I had 1 and 2 buttons free of potions for more spells, while 8 and 9 where potion buttons to know exact amount of potions left without looking in my invetory. Shift and control keys unchanged, since I'm too used to it, I just hate pressing stuff with my thumb :/

Do you have any leftover mouse buttons? Most modern mice have buttons you can hit with your thumb and/or pinky. Rebind some shiz to that, duder.

I can't fathom playing any game using the number keys as common actions. I always rebind that shit to wasd and the surrounding keys so that my pinky can sit comfortably on shift and hit tab or ctrl easily.

@Ravenlight said:

Do you have any leftover mouse buttons? Most modern mice have buttons you can hit with your thumb and/or pinky. Rebind some shiz to that, duder.

My wireless mouse only has the click in rolly wheel, which I intend to use as a buff button. Unless I come up with something better my loadout is...

Q: heal item

W: switch weapons

E: skill (set to debuff)

R: skill (set to backflip)

F: skill (slow shot)

Spacebar: stop moving

/: quest pop up

Everything else is default with my fingers sitting on QWER. I imagine I would set 1234 to skills and items I use less of. 7890 I rebinded to my "skill" buttons my fingers sit on since I can't image people would have a better use for keys that far away. With ERF readily available they should be my most vital skills.

I also learned I can't stand to play melee with these types of controls. I'd rather hang back and shoot ranged or shotty dudes away at midrange. If controller support would eventually come out for the game then I might give melee classes more of a chance, since I didn't them at all.

I'm playing Diablo 3 with only the mouse by mapping abilities to the scroll wheel and some extra mouse buttons (has some extra buttons for your thumb on my mouse), but its really the only type of PC game where that is actually feasible. Its a lot more comfortable though as my left hand doesn't need to hover over the number keys.

Obviously for shooters your hand is always over the WASD keys so its not normally a problem.

@believer258 said:

Torchlight did it, but these sorts of games aren't really made for a controller.

Also, getting used to a keyboard takes a while. Once you do, though, and you can play an FPS or something well that way, you'll prefer it in certain genres.

Anyway, if what I think is true and you click to tell your character where to go and what to do, then I'm afraid that a controller just won't be very easy to play with.

If they did it for Torchlight, I'd imagine they'll do it for Torchlight II as well. Most of the work is done. Though I doubt I'd ever play Torchlight II that way.

@believer258 said:

Unless by some chance Blizzard themselves built a control option in.

Blizzard made Diablo III. Runic made Torchlight & is making Torchlight II. They're two different companies, even if the people from Runic are the original Diablo and Diablo II team.

Maybe I'm missing your point - why are you mentioning Blizzard? I don't think they have any stake in Torchlight.

@Ariketh said:

@believer258 said:

Torchlight did it, but these sorts of games aren't really made for a controller.

Also, getting used to a keyboard takes a while. Once you do, though, and you can play an FPS or something well that way, you'll prefer it in certain genres.

Anyway, if what I think is true and you click to tell your character where to go and what to do, then I'm afraid that a controller just won't be very easy to play with.

If they did it for Torchlight, I'd imagine they'll do it for Torchlight II as well. Most of the work is done. Though I doubt I'd ever play Torchlight II that way.

@believer258 said:

Unless by some chance Blizzard themselves built a control option in.

Blizzard made Diablo III. Runic made Torchlight & is making Torchlight II. They're two different companies, even if the people from Runic are the original Diablo and Diablo II team.

Maybe I'm missing your point - why are you mentioning Blizzard? I don't think they have any stake in Torchlight.

Ah, shit. How did it take this long for people to point this out to me?

Thanks for telling me, I didn't even realize this.

With Runic saying they learned lessons from the XBLA version of Torchlight which delayed Torchlight II, I am a little surprised that controller support wasn't added.

Do what I do. Swap hands. I find it easier, wierdly. Don't ask me why.