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    Dragon Age: Origins

    Game » consists of 20 releases. Released Nov 03, 2009

    Dragon Age: Origins is an epic fantasy role-playing game featuring a rich story, personality-driven characters, and tactical, bloody combat. It is considered a spiritual successor to the Baldur's Gate series.

    Dragon Age's AI sucks

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    HAMMERCLAW

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    #51  Edited By HAMMERCLAW
    @Phonics said:
    " @Khann: Personally (playing on nightmare) I always give orders on all my melee on who to attack and when to use stuns, while directly controlling Morrigan who I heal and crowd control with. "

    I do something like that. I build three tanks, and use  Morrigan for fire-support.
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    Teran

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    #52  Edited By Teran
      @cinemandrew said: 

    Agreed. I love the game, but I thought the combat system was going to be a more advanced version of the gambit system in FFXII. Instead we have a system which requires you to invest points to get more slots, and in the end doesn't really add much to it at all. On top of that the AI does require babysitting. I found it much more manageable to play as a ranged character, but I like playing as my tank. I just wish my ranged folks especially would be able to manage themselves a bit better. It's also a shame that I never seem to have enough tactics slots available because I can never fully utilize all their skills unless I'm constantly hopping around to each character.  I still love the game, I'm just bummed that one of the features that I was most excited about, seems to be less than ideal. Despite all it's faults, in FFXII, I almost never had to switch characters during combat. I enjoy the whole gambit/tactics combat idea. It makes it feel more like you're playing with a group of other players, but without the proper depth, it seems useful for little more than keeping buffs up, and potion chugging/healing. "  

    Ugh... gambits.  I liked FF12 but I hated party management.  It's a good thing your party could manage themselves because it would have been real annoying switching between them to get what you wanted done.  In that note, couldn't it be said that this system offers even more flexibility?  You not only set a stance (aggressive, defensive, ranged, passive, cautious, etc. but you get to set specific if/then clauses. In a way it's a "build your own ai" type of deal... seems almost like a puzzle really trying to figure out which tactics take precedence over others at what times.  
      

    The system isn't simplistic, it's deep and requires thought.  As far as FF12 goes though... it's a completely different game.  Comparing tactics to gambits is not wise because the FF12 system never had to deal with the number of skills and choices that we have on the average hero in DAO.  Tactics are meant to be a convenience, not a way to get the game to play the game for you.  To put that in more polite terms tactics are there to keep you from doing the menial boring stuff like restarting all your sustained abilities, some spells are so situational that there is no way to program an ai to take advantage of every skill. 
     
    @HAMMERCLAW said:

    " @Teran: Uh, dude, in case you haven't noticed, combat in this game is REAL TIME, not turn-based, and on the console, at least, no online play, so no random idiots dropping in to wreak mayhem. Other than that, you're comments make perfect sense. "

    I didn't say the game was literally turn based but I can see why my comment might have been unclear.  To clarify, early on in the game I approached it like I would an action rpg like Diablo.  I didn't mess with the default tactics and I didn't really pause to micromanage.  Playing the game like this made for some frustratingly challenging encounters... and as time passed I found pausing and issuing commands would make my group more efficient to an extreme.  In effect I started treating the game like it was a turn based strategy.  The "turn" is actually the time it takes to for a character to cast their ability or use their special attack, on average 2-3 seconds long before the turn would end and I could pause and issue more commands depending on how the battle evolved in those 2-3 seconds.  
     
    I would also point out that there is a subgenre to turn based strategy games in which you issue commands on the battlefield while the game is paused, your enemy issues their commands without seeing what yours were and then the the turn is started and it lasts a finite amount of time.  Once the turn is over the commanders issue more commands based on the new data they have.  I think this very accurately describes DAO combat except that the period of time the turns last is shortened.  I'm sure some will disagree with this analogy but I think it fits.  
     
    As far as the useless partner goes it seems I was unclear again.  I was referring to the idiot partner you have in Resident Evil 5 (Sheva by default).  There is no online play for any version of Dragon Age as far as I know, pc included. 
     
     Oh and last but not least, there are other ways to get more tactic slots.  You gain more as you level up, and ranger pets give the owning ranger an extra 1-2 (I believe this is dependent on which pet you have out) tactic slots.
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    sjolle

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    #53  Edited By sjolle
    @Vigilance said:
    " There I said it.   I realize a lot of folks like that this game is hard, but when that hardness comes from AI so dumb that they chase enemies into flame, and then just stand there drinking health potions in the flame, that's not "hard", that's bad AI.   And of course, I could go on, like characters with bows standing toe to toe with enemies, but really, the fight against the zombies in red cliff, where they gave you the option to set a fire with lamp oil, apparently so that your party would have some fire to run into, was really the point at which I realized the AI in this game is just bad.  "
    i will admit that the game is extreme hard if u play it on normal or up ... its a game you'd only be able to do on easy unless u wana go verry nerdy on it ...
     
    that the AI suck i will agree with you BUT if you set the tactics right its prtty good ... and they don't mess up that badly ... but it should not be nessesary to spend that much time on making the tactiks when all you would ever want is just to play the game ... not to mention that after all those cut'scenes and endless speaches you do just wana play the damn game
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    The_Philosopher

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    #54  Edited By The_Philosopher
    @Vigilance: There's a button to stop them from moving on there own. Also just a bit of advice, you should disarm the traps so they don't run into the flame traps or whatever. Also change the combat tactics if you don't like them, you can set it up so they all attack the main character's target.
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    Impossibilium

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    #55  Edited By Impossibilium

    The one thing which pisses me off about the tactics is that there is no option for:
     
    "When you are being attacked, have low health and you have no potions : run the fuck away."

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    Metzo_Paino

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    #56  Edited By Metzo_Paino

    I'm playing through on normal and have found the A.I to be fairly competent in most situations. Sure they are less efficient than if i was micromanaging and in novel situations flaws are more obvious (such as the two fire wall parts i've came across), but these problems are few and far between so i over look them. 
     
    Plus, if i wanted to make their A.I more robust i have the ability to do that in the expansive tactics list. i don't see this as being lazy on Bioware's part because if they set up a character like i would, that character would probably be too smart for the A.I, its much more rewarding tinkering away and discovering a great combination of rules. 
     
    And too the people complaining about the micromanaging in this game, you wouldn't play Street Fighter and complain that it's too complex because thats the sort of game it is, and Dragon Age: Origins rewards micromanaging, Bioware has said from the start it's that sort of old school game. It isn't their fault that the game isn't up to your standards because it is appealing to a whole different type of gamer.

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    Jim_uk

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    #57  Edited By Jim_uk

     
    The AI is as good as you make it, setting your teams tactics up to suit your style of play is part of the game. There are so many different ways to play and ways to set up your character Bioware couldn't possibly cover them all properly. I wonder sometimes why those who want everything done for them bother playing games at all, why not give up and watch a movie.

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    Jim_uk

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    #58  Edited By Jim_uk
    @Impossibilium said:
    " The one thing which pisses me off about the tactics is that there is no option for:  "When you are being attacked, have low health and you have no potions : run the fuck away." "
    Why not take control of that character and move them away? you could get another member to use "threaten" to draw enemies away, there are plenty of options for those who want to play the game rather than have the game play itself.
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    Teran

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    #59  Edited By Teran
    @sjolle:  Haha so let me paraphrase...  "Hey guys, this game is HAAAAAAAARD unless your a nerd, and the ai sucks." 
     
    Perhaps the game is easy, and it is you that suck.  I am currently playing through on the "hard" difficulty and it is easy enough that non-nerds can do it.
     
    @Impossibilium: Do you really want your people running away whenever they're low health and have no potions?  I wouldn't, what if the fight were about over and I was winning?    
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    Vigilance

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    #60  Edited By Vigilance

    Ok, so having started this thread around the time of the Redcliffe quest, which I had done right after Ostragar, I will now amend my original statement. 
     
    The AI in this game does not suck. 
     
    Dragon Age does however, have an EXTREMELY deep learning curve, during which it provides little in the way of tutorials and is pretty unforgiving during that process.  
     
    I've tweaked the tactics some, learned when to intervene and learned not to wait "a few more seconds" when things go bad. 

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    _Nuno_

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    #61  Edited By _Nuno_

    I don't think the AI sucks, but the pathfinding is not very good. Sometimes I'm steering a guy to enter a room and just because a slght part of his shoulder hits the wall you spend 3-4 secs to redirect your guy.
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    jmrwacko

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    #62  Edited By jmrwacko

    They operate entirely on user-defined priority lists and their pathfinding is as good as the enemy's pathfinding, so what seems to be "bad AI" on the part of your party members may actually just be the player's fault. Just saying.

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    Chrion

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    #63  Edited By Chrion
    @AndrewB said:
    " I think this is why under the difficulty settings it says to use Easy mode if you're the type of person who doesn't like to pause and just let the AI do its thing. The game is pretty much meant to be played giving direct orders to everyone. If that isn't the style of game you like, then you're going to have to deal with the AI.
     
    I do agree, though. Especially in the case of NPC characters charging in to area-effect spells, the AI is downright dumb. Too bad the enemy doesn't seem to do it nearly as much.
     
    Edit: I noticed the mention of changing AI behavior, which I didn't really think of, but that doesn't account for other characters that you don't have direct control over.
     
    One particular example:
    "
     
    2 things that will help you with this issue is to set all your ranged class's to attack the "target of alistair" or shale if hes your main tank. Also in the tactics menu at the top right there is an option to have them be aggressive, passive, defensive, etc etc, and it explains in the tooltip which ones will cause your guy to run out of AOE's or eat them. That may not work on the defensive fire in redcliffe, but that goes back to the hold position command and just manually controlling the tank while the ranged automatically attack your target as per the tactics you have set for them. Theres a ton of ways to do it, its all at your command, and i would commend the a.i in this game because controlling there behaviors and changing/molding them to my style has been great.
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    crusnchill

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    #64  Edited By crusnchill
    @Vigilance:
    I actually thought it was smart. I mean I equipped morrigan with a dagger and a small shield for those just in case instances when she couldn't escape close quarters combat and she ALLWAY'S switched from her staff to her melee weapon & shield EVERY time an enemy got too close. :-) 
     
    The only AI problem I've ever had is on the free warden DLC. When I decided to kill sophia Dryden and help the blood magic mage harvenus or whatever his name is. 
    I mean at this point in my game I was still a fledgling and his fireball kaned me EVERY time. 
    I'd kill Sophia only to find that the next step would be brutally hard because the game would spawn me in the demon spawning room with the SAME level's of health as when I'd killed sophia. 
    And getting burned to a crisp by harvenus and his BLOODY fireball is not helpful for team mates. GRRRR! lol. 
    I eventually managed to win out the Sophia fight with good health and killed all the demon's. :-) 
     
    Apart from that small hiccup though, I found the AI fine.
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    TOBlender

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    #65  Edited By TOBlender
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    Teran

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    #66  Edited By Teran
    @TOBlender said:
    " I think our comic says it all:   
     
    Harrowmont and Bhelen never appear in Ostagar.  
     
    Also, if you're not a complete imbecile and use your brain when working out your tactics your party will assist you quite effectively. 
     
    Are you sure you played the game, or are you just reading forums and pretending you did?
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    TOBlender

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    #67  Edited By TOBlender
    @Teran:  Harrowmont and Bhelen never appear in Ostagar.   
    LOL i mean Orzammar.  I stand by what I said about the stock AI without fiddling is stupid.  In Ostagar where you have to kill the Ogre in the tower, that when I realized you had to customize the AI.  And yes I did play the game, as a elemental mage and as 2h warrior, normal and easy.
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    Teran

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    #68  Edited By Teran
    @TOBlender: Have you tried messing with the "Behavior" tab?  When you click to edit tactics there's a drop down box with things like "aggressive", "ranged", "cautious" and such.  I found setting those to something other than "default" was extremely helpful even without setting any tactics. 
     
    I'll agree with you though that the stock AI is bad in a sense, but I think the intent was to force players to be involved in the combat, not have the game play itself for them.
     
    Over all game AI seems fine, I didn't often ( but occasionally) see the ai that controls the npcs make awful decisions. 
     
    Oh, and Morrigan smoking a cigarette cracks me up, thanks for that.
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    deactivated-57b1d7d14d4a5

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    I just wish my team members wouldn't walk into traps when they know they are there. And I wish I could trigger those traps on enemies who also blunder past them.

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    AndrewB

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    #70  Edited By AndrewB
    @Chrion said:
    2 things that will help you with this issue is to set all your ranged class's to attack the "target of alistair" or shale if hes your main tank. Also in the tactics menu at the top right there is an option to have them be aggressive, passive, defensive, etc etc, and it explains in the tooltip which ones will cause your guy to run out of AOE's or eat them. That may not work on the defensive fire in redcliffe, but that goes back to the hold position command and just manually controlling the tank while the ranged automatically attack your target as per the tactics you have set for them. Theres a ton of ways to do it, its all at your command, and i would commend the a.i in this game because controlling there behaviors and changing/molding them to my style has been great. "
    I totally realized  the tactic of messing with AI settings, and I pretty much always have my party on the hold position because most of the time, I'm sneaking around with my main character to scope things out. My problem was with the NPCs you couldn't control. The whole rest of the villiagers. I'd really have liked to have kept as many of them as I could alive, but on my first attempt, a whole bunch of them ran straight into the fire and wouldn't leave it even after the ememies were defeated, thus, they all died. That means you can't go back and talk to them after the battle, and get whatever information or rewards or what have you from them, because they're retarded, and dead.
     
    They could have just put in some scripting to make sure the characters don't cross that certain threshold around the firey entrance, should you choose to use the fire, at all. If I ever play through Dragon Age again, next time I'll just decide to forgo using the oil.
     
    Also, the only ranged character ever in my party would be Morrigan, usually flinging spells. I have Allistair and Sten, because if I didn't, my rogue would get massacred in every battle. And I play my main character almost entirely as an "assassin" (even though I don't yet have the kit for it), backstabbing and using poisons. Using ranged weapons for anything other than drawing out enemy stragglers is pretty much worthless, since you don't have the specializations to make yourself effective in the slightest.
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    kapraeru

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    #71  Edited By kapraeru

    wow It appears Teran is on her period, or is he always argumentative and if you have a problem with a game you're just an imbecile? 
     
    Anyways I'm playing mostly on the Third Person Camera on the pc and isometric for hard encounters, this is my first playtrough on nightmare+, and the AI just plain sucks, they do not apply the abilities smartly enough, maybe on normal its less noticeable but on Nightmare+(the plus stands for a mod that makes nightmare a little harder, since regular was a cakewalk, the game is still too easy but meh, and the reason is that I micromanage all the npc's most of the time and no I do not have multiple mages) their stupidity is annoying on occasions where I need them to behave the most, I had less problems in BG2, and I heard for consoles there difficulty is easier(though you don't get the isometric camera so maybe not really much easier) for all the hype the AI was getting they sure failed.  
     
    On such amusing occasion is on the deserted building in denerim and I had the AI on, there's tar everywhere, I have shale on aggressive, there is a mage with 5 archers and casts fireball, it knocks back my tank into the tar, light the tar with the fire, the mage litterally walks toward him near the flaming tar and the tank starts fighting while inside the tar and then the mage moves back after like 4 seconds of getting hit by shale(and shale still getting 24 or so damage the whole time) shale follows him after having half the life taking out by the tar fire and eventually dies thanks to the archers =/.
     
    Setting it up yourself is usually the way to go except for some cases like for Alistair, where a defender is good enough but you can only make it better by adding more commands, one problem is that they are missing a lot of AI commands I would find useful, like running away(I really expected to have the ability to have my archers AI stun an enemy, run a certain amount of distance and keep attacking, hell just lure the enemy away and run a marathon until my fighter gets there, cautious fails miserably here), changing the behavious, use skills when an enemy has just fallen in battle or making skills work when a certain npc has a certain number of enemies surrounding him(for the walking bomb, which I actually forgot I had until now).
     
    Overall pretty good game but nowhere near perfect.

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    SlayerNoMercy

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    #72  Edited By SlayerNoMercy

    i just had them all hold position and the zombies would come to me...pretty easy lol

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    MadeinFinland

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    #73  Edited By MadeinFinland

    I noticed it was a little rough AI. That and the fact that the autosave sucks are the only two bad things I could find about it.

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    Chrion

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    #74  Edited By Chrion
    @AndrewB said:
    " @Chrion said:
    2 things that will help you with this issue is to set all your ranged class's to attack the "target of alistair" or shale if hes your main tank. Also in the tactics menu at the top right there is an option to have them be aggressive, passive, defensive, etc etc, and it explains in the tooltip which ones will cause your guy to run out of AOE's or eat them. That may not work on the defensive fire in redcliffe, but that goes back to the hold position command and just manually controlling the tank while the ranged automatically attack your target as per the tactics you have set for them. Theres a ton of ways to do it, its all at your command, and i would commend the a.i in this game because controlling there behaviors and changing/molding them to my style has been great. "
    I totally realized  the tactic of messing with AI settings, and I pretty much always have my party on the hold position because most of the time, I'm sneaking around with my main character to scope things out. My problem was with the NPCs you couldn't control. The whole rest of the villiagers. I'd really have liked to have kept as many of them as I could alive, but on my first attempt, a whole bunch of them ran straight into the fire and wouldn't leave it even after the ememies were defeated, thus, they all died. That means you can't go back and talk to them after the battle, and get whatever information or rewards or what have you from them, because they're retarded, and dead.  They could have just put in some scripting to make sure the characters don't cross that certain threshold around the firey entrance, should you choose to use the fire, at all. If I ever play through Dragon Age again, next time I'll just decide to forgo using the oil.  Also, the only ranged character ever in my party would be Morrigan, usually flinging spells. I have Allistair and Sten, because if I didn't, my rogue would get massacred in every battle. And I play my main character almost entirely as an "assassin" (even though I don't yet have the kit for it), backstabbing and using poisons. Using ranged weapons for anything other than drawing out enemy stragglers is pretty much worthless, since you don't have the specializations to make yourself effective in the slightest. "
    that 2nd point you had leads me to a question, I noticed that it says the enemies will be attracted to your higher geared teammate, but I notice mobs running right past alistair to attack my mage that hasnt even touched them yet. So does having more than 1 guy in heavy plate raise the seemingly random chance that mobs will avoid your lightly geared toons?
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    Vigilance

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    #75  Edited By Vigilance
    @Chrion said:
    " @AndrewB said:

    that 2nd point you had leads me to a question, I noticed that it says the enemies will be attracted to your higher geared teammate, but I notice mobs running right past alistair to attack my mage that hasnt even touched them yet. So does having more than 1 guy in heavy plate raise the seemingly random chance that mobs will avoid your lightly geared toons? "  
     
    Yeah, the game says targets tend to go after heavily armored characters, but I haven't noticed that it makes a difference, the AI seems more geared to try and go straight for your weaker party members. 
     
    I have had situations where a tank is in front in massive armor, with threaten and taunt activated, and the enemy STILL goes straight for the healer in the back who hasn't inflicted a single point of damage.  
     
    That's actually the worst thing about the AI to me, is that the computer is way smarter than AI-controlled party members. 
     
    For example, even on the most cautious setting, I haven't noticed that your ranged characters will try to run away from melee, like the NPC AI will. You can set them not to fight back in melee, which seems to mean they just stand there and allow themselves to be killed. 
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    ArchScabby

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    #76  Edited By ArchScabby

    yeah.  A lot of times i'll hold the position on my party in a hallway, then take my main guy and slowly walk towards the enemies.  When only one or two enemies see me I'll run back to my party and we will easily kill those one or two guys.  I'll keep doing that until everyone is dead.

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    Teran

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    #77  Edited By Teran
       @kapraeru said: 

    " wow It appears Teran is on her period, or is he always argumentative and if you have a problem with a game you're just an imbecile?  

     
     I think you misunderstood what I was saying though I see how it could have been interpreted as being insulting, let me explain.  I was not calling anyone in particular an imbecile, certainly not anyone posting in this thread.  I didn't amend it because the person I was replying to (Toblender) seemed to understand what I meant.  I'm sure a lot of people have legitimate cause to complain however a lot of the time complaints can be solved simply by adjusting tactics.

     Anyways I'm playing mostly on the Third Person Camera on the pc and isometric for hard encounters, this is my first playtrough on nightmare+, and the AI just plain sucks, they do not apply the abilities smartly enough, maybe on normal its less noticeable but on Nightmare+(the plus stands for a mod that makes nightmare a little harder, since regular was a cakewalk, the game is still too easy but meh, and the reason is that I micromanage all the npc's most of the time and no I do not have multiple mages) their stupidity is annoying on occasions where I need them to behave the most, I had less problems in BG2, and I heard for consoles there difficulty is easier(though you don't get the isometric camera so maybe not really much easier) for all the hype the AI was getting they sure failed.   

    I do not think the ability to set tactics was intended to be a fully functioning AI, merely something to be used in addition to your personal micromanagement or perhaps something to keep you from having to micromanage during easier fights.  If you want to judge the game's ai you really need to look at your enemies in a fight.  Sometimes they do stupid things but generally their ai is quite good.  I'm not sure what AI hype you are referring to, a quick google search didn't really bring anything promising up.
     
    As far as builds go, two mages is pretty weak in my opinion.  Their dps would be significantly lower than a warrior or rogue specced right and the added flexibility of a second mage is not really worth the loss of dps on any difficulty level but especially on nightmare.  The only time I ever ran with two mages was for my "hard" playthrough.  I built the whole party around not having a designated tank or healer and focusing on maximizing dps.  Most fights ended before anyone needed a heal.  I'm not sure the second mage providing a second weapon enchant (kinetic + fire one on each mage) and added utility provides enough damage to justify over a rogue/warrior.  It would be a no brainer if haste didn't cancel out momentum but unfortunately it does even though momentum is a superior buff.  This group butchered enemies so fast that you could brute force annihilate bosses like brood mother without worrying about adds or the other strategic elements of these fights. 

     On such amusing occasion is on the deserted building in denerim and I had the AI on, there's tar everywhere, I have shale on aggressive, there is a mage with 5 archers and casts fireball, it knocks back my tank into the tar, light the tar with the fire, the mage litterally walks toward him near the flaming tar and the tank starts fighting while inside the tar and then the mage moves back after like 4 seconds of getting hit by shale(and shale still getting 24 or so damage the whole time) shale follows him after having half the life taking out by the tar fire and eventually dies thanks to the archers =/   .

     
     This is the kind of thing that proves (in my opinion) the point I have about the over all game ai.  In two play throughs I've never seen a single enemy stand in fire unless they were trapped or under the effects of a crowd control spell.  Party member ai on the other hand follows your instructions in the priority you set.  In effect if you set your tactics telling Shale you are creating a priority list and Shale will always try to do whichever command has the highest priority.  You may be able to alter his behavior by setting a tactic telling him to move if standing in a fire patch or some other form of sustained aoe though in truth I don't know if there is an a specific tactic that allows for this... if there are not, there are mods out there that unlock all tactics including the ones npc use for your own use on your party members.    

     Setting it up yourself is usually the way to go except for some cases like for Alistair, where a defender is good enough but you can only make it better by adding more commands, one problem is that they are missing a lot of AI commands I would find useful, like running away(I really expected to have the ability to have my archers AI stun an enemy, run a certain amount of distance and keep attacking, hell just lure the enemy away and run a marathon until my fighter gets there, cautious fails miserably here), changing the behavious, use skills when an enemy has just fallen in battle or making skills work when a certain npc has a certain number of enemies surrounding him(for the walking bomb, which I actually forgot I had until now).  Overall pretty good game but nowhere near perfect. "

    Tactics like this really wouldn't be a good idea.  If you let your party members run based on a rigid command you'll find them running away turning a winnable fight into a wipe.  Running away would also hurt.  I really think a minimalist approach is the way to go, the less your group does automatically the more effective they are under  your guidance.  In my games I simply set tactics in order to make sure all my characters always have all their sustained abilities up... like telling Alistair to always use shield wall, taunt, and precise striking for example. 
     
    @Vigilance said: 

     Yeah, the game says targets tend to go after heavily armored characters, but I haven't noticed that it makes a difference, the AI seems more geared to try and go straight for your weaker party members.  I have had situations where a tank is in front in massive armor, with threaten and taunt activated, and the enemy STILL goes straight for the healer in the back who hasn't inflicted a single point of damage.  

    There are numerous factors at play here.  Agro is not determined purely by damage done but also by other contributing factors like who was first seen, proximity to enemies, and what buffs or debuffs you might have toggled on.  Personally I've never seen this situation occur unless my mage was the first party member they saw or she had entropy toggled on.
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    #78  Edited By Vigilance
    @Teran: Yeah, there's definitely some things going on I haven't totally grokked yet, but a big part of the problem I think is that AI-controlled mages seem to want to get REAL close, if you don't watch them carefully. 
     
    In dungeons, such as the Mage's circle tower, a lot of times you'll open a door and spot enemies, and your NPCs, and the monsters in the room, will run right at each other, I guess to get a clear shot, but in cases where you have a rogue with a bow and a mage running right at an enemy in order to get into a room, what you frequently wind up with is a cluster-F of party members and monsters.  
     
    What's frustrating about this is that Baldur's gate even had party formations you could set, where your PCs would fall into a diamond shape, with a fighter on the front, hybrids on the flanks (a rogue for instance), and then a pure mage or healer in the back.  
     
    This would be a HUGE benefit in Dragon Age.  
     
    Because of how party members and monsters tend to run at each other, I frequently find myself putting party members on "hold position" in a spread out formation, then go to open doors myself, on the off chance there's an encounter inside.  
     
    Having to manually do this room by room is something I wish the game didn't force me to do but again, if I don't, I seem to have archers and mages running right at monsters in a mad rush to get into a room.  
     
    During my first playthrough of the game, there was also a lot of "unlearning" I needed to do too, which made the learning curve more steep. 
     
    In many RPGs, warriors can be prime damage dealers, and archery is deadly. For about half of my first playthrough, I was trying to use my main (a sword and shield warrior) and an archer as my primary damage dealers, with dog to provide some crowd control, and Wynne to heal.  
     
    I basically think all these choices are sub-optimal. Archery seems to not be that powerful, at least not to the level where you're counting on it as a prime source of damage over say, a mage. Even that same rogue dual-wielding daggers with some poison seems to give a MUCH higher damage output than a rogue with a bow.   
     
    And sword and shield seems to mostly be about tanking and tying up your enemy WoW-style.  
     
    Basically, I tried to avoid having a mage as a main damage-dealer, and that really doesn't seem to be a good strategy at all. Playing a mage on my second playthrough, I'm sometimes amazed at how much easier an encounter is that starts off with a cone of cold, followed by a stone fist. I can frequently incapacitate two enemies with ice and shatter a third.
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    #79  Edited By Teran
    @Vigilance:   I had the same problem with my archers and mages however I found a solution that worked quite well for me.  I uneqipped the archer's melee weapons and set her behavior to "ranged" and that went a long way in keeping her out of the fights however with her spec I ultimately basically wanted her in melee range for most fights because of the tier 4 bard song.
     
    I really like the idea of formations, I would even be content with being able to set default positions within the existing diamond formation rather than having whoever I have directly selected automatically take the lead.
     
    As for warriors, they are quite deadly in this game, particularly when dual wielding with the berserker subclass.  Archery (and to a lesser degree daggers) on the other hand are currently very gimped because agility is not adding damage as it should.  This has been commented on bioware and should be fixed with the next patch.  From what I understand, console versions are not bugged.  Making rogues in general viable is very difficult because of the spread of stats you need compared to other classes.  Where Shale needs only str and con and most warriors need only str and dex (con as well if tanking), rogues need significant amounts of str (for armor), agi (to unlock talents), and cunning (to increase certain skills, increase damage, increase crit, lockpicking and trap disarming).  The only way I've really found a way to make my rogue optimal is ignoring cunning after getting the minimum needed for device mastery 4 (22), ignoring agility after getting the minimum needed for momentum (26), and dumping everything else into str.  The reason for str is it reliably boosts damage, and virtually all the light armor in the game increases only dex which does nothing for your damage currently.
     
    My protagonist in my first play through was a sword and shield warrior.  The first half of the game was punishing as he'd take so much damage but he became almost unkillable in the second half of the game.  In many situations my warrior was a better tank than Shale and was a lot harder to kill but Shale has so much threat gain once enemies are on him they probably aren't going anywhere.
     
    There are generally two ways you can spec most classes in DAO.  You can go for a dps build that focuses on burst damage using abilities or you can go for a sustained dps build that focuses on sustained passive abilities.  The burst build offers some interesting options but falls way short of the sustained builds damage.  The fundamental concept of the sustained build is getting enough agi for momentum and putting the rest into str.  For warriors berserker/champion is a potent subclass combo for dual wielding.  My favorite rogue combo is assassin/bard but bard can be substituted for duelist.  Mages can go spirit healer/arcane warrior, or blood mage/arcane warrior and maintain a very high sustained dps dual wielding though you'll only have mana for 2-3 spells as an arcane warrior.  With a build like this crowd control and healing are rarely needed because your party is basically a meat grinder and most enemies die in four seconds or less.
     
    In short, many of the "weaker" specs and classes aren't really that weak but are a victim of bugs or mislabeled stat bonuses.
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    #80  Edited By Vigilance
    @Teran: Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I didn't think my sword and board warrior sucked, he was powerful, he just wasn't inflicting enough damage by himself. Later in the game, when I added a mage with combat spells in place of dog, things went a lot better.  
     
    I still think archery is pretty sub-optimal though, especially seeing how much ass a rogue can kick with daggers.  
     
    It's not terrible, but I think just about every choice you could make with a rogue is better than archery. 
     
    One thing that makes no sense to me about this game is restricting poison to melee attacks.  
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    #81  Edited By Teran
    @Vigilance: From what I understand, archery built right on the console version is probably the best spec.  I've heard people claiming that with rapid fire their archer was hitting for 80+ damage a shot.  By itself that may not out dps a dagger rogue however when you factor in archery's great stun, the ability to crit on command, and that their damage is projected over a great distance you have something a lot more versatile. 
     
    I know that when the next patch is released fixing archery I'll be giving it a shot.
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    #82  Edited By luce

    ?..i haven't had any problems with the AI yet.
     
    I'm most of the way through and playing with two mages, a rogue(the red haired chick) and a warrior on normal and had absolutely no problems.
     
    I didn't even tinker with the tactics options

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    #83  Edited By xyzygy

    I find the some of the behaviours are terrible. Everytime I put Wynne to Passive, for some reason she runs up to enemies and heals party members from there instead of standing away and healing, which is what the behaviour description says. She can heal them perfectly from a distance but she wants to run up to the enemy and get hit for some reason even though she's PASSIVE! 

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    #84  Edited By Vigilance
    @Teran said:
    " @Vigilance: From what I understand, archery built right on the console version is probably the best spec.  I've heard people claiming that with rapid fire their archer was hitting for 80+ damage a shot.  By itself that may not out dps a dagger rogue however when you factor in archery's great stun, the ability to crit on command, and that their damage is projected over a great distance you have something a lot more versatile.  I know that when the next patch is released fixing archery I'll be giving it a shot. "
    Hmmm, is this because Dexterity isn't affecting archery damage, while Cunning does have the proper effect on daggers/armor penetration? 
     
    I've read a lot of dual-wield rogue class guides that suggest pouring ability points into Cunning and nothing else, once you have enough Str and Dex to get the best equipment. 
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    #85  Edited By Teran
    @xyzygy: There's rarely a disadvantage for being close to enemies, in fact most of the time it is advantageous.
     
    @Vigilance: Yes, that is partially the reason though I believe (haven't tested it yet) that cunning will also effect archery damage because str is currently what modifies archery damage so the lethality talent should work as well however you still end up hurting because I don't believe str grants attack rating for archery so the best choice for archery is basically straight agility.
     
    As for dual wielding rogues, I still feel that a straight str build is better than cunning until agi gets fixed.
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    #86  Edited By Vigilance
    @Teran: Hmm, I'll keep that in mind. I'm playing a mage right now, but I want to experiment with a dual-wield rogue as well, and the gamefaqs class guide basically suggested pouring everything into Cunning if you were going to use daggers. 
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    #87  Edited By xyzygy
    @Teran said:
    " @xyzygy: There's rarely a disadvantage for being close to enemies, in fact most of the time it is advantageous.
       
    When you're fighting enemies with AOE moves, there is a huge disadvantage - why would I want her to risk taking that damage, which she almost always does (unless I intervene and move her manually) when she can do the healing from an area where she won't be hurt? Even when I get Oghren to taunt them, she will still get hit because of the area of effect spells and moves. 
     
    How is it advantageous to risk having your healing mage, and the only one who can revive, getting killed? She can heal just as good from a little ways away being Passive, which is what I have her on.
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    #88  Edited By NumbThumb

    I've found they give you enough options for your tactics to offset a lot of the AI problems. Granted, you shouldn't have to do this. I suppose it's easier to take in games that are so large scale, such as this and Mass Effect.
     
    I'm really looking forward to ME2 to see if Bioware managed to approve this type of problem though. I also hope that since Dragon Age is doing well, that they support it and fix some of these issues.

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    #89  Edited By Venom09

    The AI is as bad as you let them be. The point of this game is to micromanage...

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    #90  Edited By Teran
    @Vigilance: I haven't read the guide and I have a personal bias against gamefaqs but I'll download the respec mod and it would switching str to cunning... I just don't think cunning will stand up to str in terms of raw dps because the tooltip is unclear on whether *just* the str damage modifier comes instead from cunning or if cunning completely replaces str for weapon based rolls (ie: cunning modifies attack in addition to the str damage modifier).
       

    @xyzygy:

       Short of fights involving dragons, aoe moves are rarely a significant source of damage even in the nightmare level of play... in fact there are basically only two you have to watch out for.  The first is fireball which is likely to hit everyone anyways because your healer probably won't be THAT far back.  The second is scattershot which in itself is not significant in terms of damage but applies a long duration stun to any party member in its radius (which is again quite large).  I've found that in the majority of situations the safest place for my healer to be is a few paces back from my tank because it brings all melee based enemies into close range to Shale enabling him to pick them up extremely easily and puts her in a better position to offensively use spells... like crushing prison on that mage who's in the middle of casting fireball :)  .
     
    I'm not trying to tell you that you're doing it wrong, but as I said in most cases in my experience the safest place to be in near the tank.
     
    Edit:  I'd also like to mention that I aim to make my groups as efficient as possible, having the healer there might seem risky but I know the limitations of my group and risk to you is calculated planning to me but I am on my third play through now.  In my first play through I felt very similarly to what you have described in this thread.
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    #91  Edited By Vigilance
    @Teran: Well, the tooltip says that Cunning modifies all rogue abilities, or something like that. 
     
    So I actually thought *that* might be where the damage comes from. This was a rogue guide, so he wasn't giving the tip to boost Cunning for a dual-wielding warrior, but for a rogue.  
     
    I think Strength might be a better bet anyway though, since you definitely want Strength if you ever want to use a sword or mace in one hand, which seems like something you'd want. I know I have my rogues (Leliana and Zevran, haven't really played much rogue myself yet) wielding a good sword most of the time when they dual-wield. 
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    #92  Edited By Teran
    @Vigilance: Yeah, I see where it says it increases rogue talents however it doesn't say anything about the dual wield talents which technically aren't rogue talents because dual wield is a shared spec between warriors and rogues.  In other words cunning potentially increases the effectiveness of :  (note ignoring activated attack talents to save space and time)
     
    1.  Stealth (which hardly matters because at max rank you are basically un-findable without ever raising cunning past 22).
     
    2.  Device Mastery (this is a purely luxury talent, you can play the whole game without ever disarming a trap or opening a locked chest). 
     
    3.  Lethality.  (which is pointless on two scales.  First the talent forces you into a suboptimal stat distribution because you need at least 22 points in str to wear light armor, 26 points into agi to get the best talents in the dual wield tree (this goes up to 35 if you want the final dual wield  passive talent.  Second the 10% passive crit chance that Lethality grants is worthless as your rogue should be backstabbing nonstop for auto crits). 
     
    4.  Feign Death.  Another talent that may be improved by cunning but doesn't actually contribute anything to rogue dps. 
      
    Basically you're choosing a stat that does: 
     
    Strength:   
    Increase damage from all weapons. except crossbows and mage staffs. 
    Increases attack score in melee combat by .5 for each point.  (higher attack rating = higher chance to hit) .
    Contributes to physical resistance and intimidation (physical resistance is what is used to resist things like knockdowns. 
    Allows you to wear heavier armor with better dps increasing stats. 
     
    or... 
     
    Cunning: 
    Increases effectiveness of rogue talents. 
    Armor penetration, mental resistance, and persuasion.  
    Damage modifier (notice, not attack)  from cunning instead of str (note: damage modifier, nothing is said about atk which means you'll likely be whiffing a lot.  Armor penetration on the other hand is too much a wildcard stat.  Each point of armor penetration lets you ignore one armor point on your enemy so if you have an armor penetration rating of 10 your attacks are hitting for +10 damage but only if the target has 10 armor or more.  While this is a good thing there is a problem.   Not everything you fight has armor (certain beasts and mages for example. 
     
    Over all cunning (at least on paper) looks like a junk stat because most of the bonuses you get are unnecessary.  To give cunning a fair shake though its usefulness is probably increased if you choose to go bard (for songs), or assassin (for increased damage based on cunning).
     
    Currently I think str is clearly the better stat because it increases your chance to hit the enemy and the damage you do upon hitting where cunning only offers (according to the tooltip) the bonus to damage.  As far as dual wielding mainhand weapons goes I generally don't bother .  The shorter swing time on daggers often yields more damage over time than two swords/axes/maces especially if the daggers are socketed with grand master elemental damage runes.

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