So, do you think the switch from morality meters of past games like KOTOR and Mass Effect to the approval based system of DAO was worth it? I"m still iffy about it. I think I like that they did away with the morality meter, now instead of losing some arbitrary numbers when you make a morally bad decision you actually feel guilt, at least that's how it is for me. On the other hand, I'm not sure if I like the new approval system, just like the morality systems of the past, the approval system feels arbitrary. I wonder how many points of approval my mom has for me. Will certain dialogue trees close if I make her too happy? I wonder which gifts would make her happy and which ones will trigger a cutscene. I'm glad they did away with the morality meter but I"m not sure I like the approval meter any better. The best moments in the game for me happened when I had to make a moral decision without worrying about whether or not my party would approve of it. To this day I still feel guilty about getting that Blood Magic spec.
Well, at least that's my take on it, what's yours?
Dragon Age: Origins
Game » consists of 20 releases. Released Nov 03, 2009
Dragon Age: Origins is an epic fantasy role-playing game featuring a rich story, personality-driven characters, and tactical, bloody combat. It is considered a spiritual successor to the Baldur's Gate series.
Morality Meter or Approval Meter?
Morality meters are stupid as hell and can take a hike for all I care. And it's alo stupid to feel guilt over something you did in a game, seeing how it's NOT REAL.
I like it when the game isnt just black and white, it forces you to try making a decision based on what you think or who your character is for once instead of simply thinking "i'ma good guy so i'ma SAVE that guy insteada KILL 'im!"
although i haven't played the game, i would agree the morality metre is bull. Everyone's just going to stick to one end of the line so in the end, you're either the perfect saint or the evil bastard. Too often that loot is given according to which side of the spectrum. I'm glad developers are finally taking away this horrible idea.
I like being able to create a character that sometimes can use a situation for monetary gain but is generally a "good" character. In games with any sort of morality meter, it's almost always beneficial to either be all evil or all good.
On the other hand, sometimes it feels as though there isn't enough consequence for doing things. Why be a saint and let these people keep the money they clearly need when I can accept the quest reward and lose nothing? The only thing I might lose is a few approval points from a character that can easily be bought back with gifts.
Surprisingly, Fable II could probably teach most RPGs a lesson or two about that.
" I like being able to create a character that sometimes can use a situation for monetary gain but is generally a "good" character. In games with any sort of morality meter, it's almost always beneficial to either be all evil or all good. On the other hand, sometimes it feels as though there isn't enough consequence for doing things. Why be a saint and let these people keep the money they clearly need when I can accept the quest reward and lose nothing? The only thing I might lose is a few approval points from a character that can easily be bought back with gifts. Surprisingly, Fable II could probably teach most RPGs a lesson or two about that. "Hmm, it sounds to me like you're referencing that stingy merchant in Lothering in which case the consequences of your action wouldn't have time to have an effect. I agree that most of the small moral decisions you make don't have much of an effect besides approval points but I found that many of the larger moral decisions you make have a profound effect on the world and even your party.
The Asunder quest really exemplifies your issue though, SPOILER: you can fight the dude and receive next to nothing or you can accept a reward of 25g and only get a note in your journal talking about how someone else will suffer because of you and your party doesn't seem to care either way.
"The Asunder quest really exemplifies your issue though, SPOILER: you can fight the dude and receive next to nothing or you can accept a reward of 25g and only get a note in your journal talking about how someone else will suffer because of you and your party doesn't seem to care either way."The Asunder quest is a great example. 25g for doing the "evil" thing with no apparent consequence, or next to nothing for doing the "good" thing with no other apparent rewards. The only redeeming factor of these quests is the epilogue text at the end. Which, in one case I found to be more emotionally moving than anything in the game, and in another case I found to be more morally gray than anything in the game. Even though it was kind of an "after the fact" thing that you could have never known about. It was still a pretty good "wow" moment.
@Shiftshaper said:
" Morality meters are stupid as hell and can take a hike for all I care. And it's alo stupid to feel guilt over something you did in a game, seeing how it's NOT REAL. I like it when the game isnt just black and white, it forces you to try making a decision based on what you think or who your character is for once instead of simply thinking "i'ma good guy so i'ma SAVE that guy insteada KILL 'im!" "Suspension of disbelief. Try it some time.
For me, the big moment I snapped a little was freeing the Qunari. The chantry mother was really annoying and patronizing to me and I just threatened her with Intimidate.
I liked that most of my party members were totally on board. Only Alistair took a big approval hit.
The morality meter worked fine in KOTOR but I really disliked how they used it in Mass Effect. One example comes to mind:
I reached Peak 15 and had to make this huge good/evil choice. My natural response would've been to kill off the Rachni queen. But because that was the "Renegade" option, and I'm trying to go for a full "Paragon" playthrough, I had to pick the other option, which was letting them go.
Because seriously, trying to get the most Paragon points was the only reason I picked that option to let this queen insect go. The Rachni are basically giant space bugs that once almost conquered the galaxy. They're governed by a hive mind, come out of eggs laid by queens... just your standard Alien ripoffs. And here I had the chance to wipe out the last queen. Somehow that was deemed the "evil" choice though.
It's just hard to believe that any rational person in that situation would've been Jesus-like and let that bug go free. Now, this one queen in particular did telepathically communicate with me and say that of course she wasn't going to be like that, she would teach her offspring to exist peacefully, mend their ways, etc. But really, who would just accept the word of this thing? I doubt even Gandhi himself would've been so understanding and trusting of a large space insect. Ya know what, it really reminds me of the TNG episode "I, Borg." Didn't buy Picard's decision in that episode and I don't buy the Paragon choice here.
It was sooo tempting to just hit the Renegade dialogue option and fry the Queen. But BioWare just decided that would be evil and I'd be punished with Renegade points. Seems to me they shouldn't be making judgements in really gray areas like that. I guess I just don't like BioWare pushing their non-genocidal agenda in their games.
I believe both concepts of morality and approval meters are too simplistic, personally, I don't like a game judging my morality, if I think an action is good, or for the greater good I don't want to be told it was wrong, or evil, or immoral; I have similar feelings about approval, I don't want to be told that something I've said or done has pleased or displeased other characters by a certain amount, I think the player should be left to judge (or misjudge) other character's reactions to them, their actions and each other. Having said all that I do think that morality, purity/corruption, and approval meters are a step towards a more dynamic time in videogames where every action a player makes can have an unknown effect on the game's events and relationships, and is therefore a step in the right direction which I can live with.
@raidingkvatch: I agree with you, up until now they have been too simplistic however in Dragon Age I find that it is extremely well done. The approval rating really gives your party members more personality and you aren't really penalized if they start to hate you. On the other hand you receive a small reward if they like you (+1 to a stat per approval level) and while it's nice it's not really good enough that you'd feel like you were missing out. Only massive decisions carry enough weight to be potentially devastating to your party (telling Wynne you're a blood mage for example) but you're not really forced into these situations and can see them coming and know to avoid putting yourself in that situation.
The fact is, no single character will approve of everything you do, and no single character is a clone of another in terms of what they approve of. I also like that there are often negative consequences for just from bribing a character with gifts and not actually going and conversing with them. Over all the system may not be perfect, but this is as close as I've seen any game get.
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