Yet another live-service shooter...

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michaelenger

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#1  Edited By michaelenger

Seeing this game announced at the PlayStation showcase was a wild experience. I don't know if I got more hyped for this or for Armored Core VI: Fires of Rubicon but I definitely channelled the reaction guys meme when the "Marathon" title came up.

But then I went to the website and saw that it was going to be a "PvP extraction shooter" in a "world of evolving, persistent zones"... so just another bland looter shooter that'll wear the flayed skin of an existing franchise in an attempt to stand out. It didn't help that there were 4 other games just like it announced in the same showcase.

I know that live-service games have a chance to make crazy amount of money, but Bungie already has a game like that in Destiny 2 so why not cater to a different type of player? The market is so over-saturated with games like this and the public's reaction to the Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League gameplay trailer should be indicative that people aren't interested in yet another game like this.

I was so hyped. Then I got sad.

EDIT

Seems like I'm not the only one who feels this way:

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ALLTheDinos

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When Jim Ryan was talking about how Bungie would be vetting the live-service games for Playstation in some news early this week, my first thought was “haven’t people been complaining for years that too many games are trying to be Destiny”. Redfall was really a unique case of both trend-chasing and broken game design, but it’s hard not to squint at this new collection of Second Job Games and wonder which will be the next great fiasco.

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TheRealTurk

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As a big fan of the original Marathon series, what kills me about this is that those games are so ripe for a remake. After all, they were basically proto-Halo and, given the relative failure of Nu-Halo, it seems like there would be a pretty big audience for a good, story driven, sci-fi FPS.

I mean, just imagine the original Marathon with modern lighting. Or voice acting for Durandal.

Instead, that trailer had just about zero "Marathon" in it. Multiplayer BS and a Mirror's Edge-ass color palette are not things I associate - at all - with the Marathon name. Outside of the briefest mention of "in the heavens, they are waiting," you could have put any generic sci-fi sounding name on that trailer and I would have believed it.

And while I'm at it -Bungie, remake Pathways Into Darkness you cowards!

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brian_

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#4  Edited By brian_

Not that I care about either, but I think you might be conflating "looter shooters" and "extraction games", which aren't necessarily the same thing. They're both chasing trends in a similar way though. I think that where loot games have been driven into the ground at this point, with the Suicide Squad reaction and Assassin's Creed going back to the original formula, the chase for the "extraction game" market has just started and there's room for a game to become "the extraction shooter" before publishers eventually run that into the ground like everything else.

EDIT: Also... like... hey, the original Marathon was a Doom clone. The series isn't exactly some bastion of original ideas of story-focused, single-player narrative or something. It's a bunch of guys in a hallway to shoot, chasing the popular trend at the time.

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cikame

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In a world where we could have got a cool story focused reboot of Marathon, we didn't.

I guess Bungie can't do that anymore, it would be a risk, making traditional games requires funding and staffing up which just sounds super annoying.

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michaelenger

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@therealturk said:

As a big fan of the original Marathon series, what kills me about this is that those games are so ripe for a remake.

...

I mean, just imagine the original Marathon with modern lighting. Or voice acting for Durandal.

...

Yeah, this is what made me so crazy hyped when I saw the announcement video. For a good few minutes it was all "the madlads fucking did it" but then reality had to come in and ruin everything.

@brian_ said:

Not that I care about either, but I think you might be conflating "looter shooters" and "extraction games", which aren't necessarily the same thing.

...

That's a fair point and I am painting over a lot of subtle differences with the same jaded brush. I just can't tell the difference when it all seems to be about doing the same repetitive runs/raids/quests where the reward is gear with slightly higher stats or filling progression meters. But that's probably just my limited view, having never played Escape From Tarkov for example, so I will use the correct terminology from now on.

You do make a point that this is different enough, and in the current zeitgeist, to make publishers think they can get away with releasing yet another "play forever" game to go fishing for whales with.

A part of me conflating the two game styles (and lots of other live-service shooters) is that I find it so crushingly disappointing when so much effort and creativity goes into making something that feels wasted on the gameplay it's attached to. All that deep lore and hyper polished aesthetic becomes set dressing around a hamster wheel with a credit card slot.

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bigsocrates

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@michaelenger: To be fair some of the extraction games don't even have gear or XP rewards (though most do.) They're just about running the same maps over and over and over.

And some of them don't bother with the deep lore or polished aesthetic. Rainbow Six sure didn't. "It's Rainbow Six but now there's....aliens for some reason?"

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that all this feels like it used to be just some random mode added to a full featured game. Like Call of Duty when it added zombies or then that alien version of zombies.

Now its its own game that you pay for AND put microtransactions into.

On the plus side since I have no interest in these games I can safely ignore them instead of buying a game and ignoring one of the modes, saving me money, kind of?

In general games feel much less generous than they used to. There are exceptions. Like when Forza Horizon 4 added a limited track editor and a battle royale mode both for free. But a lot of publishers would have just spun each of those off into their own $40 projects.

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ThePanzini

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#8  Edited By ThePanzini

I don't understand all the rumours around Bungie said they were planning a new PvP game most likely with service elements, how is anyone surprised? It's literally the reason Sony bought them. Not counting the fact they have nearly a 1000 employees being a really really expensive sudio to run.

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bigsocrates

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@thepanzini: Just because you're making 1 game doesn't mean you can't make another especially with a studio that size. Plus live service multiplayer games can have a single player component (Gears and CoD and Halo all being examples.)

And Marathon being multiplayer only is...kind of a strange fit. It's a weird thing that games do where they bring back a franchise you loved but in a manner that doesn't involve the things you loved about it. Other industries don't tend to do this. You don't see "There's a new Terminator film coming but it's a romcom" very often.

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ThePanzini

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#10  Edited By ThePanzini

@bigsocrates: TBF games nowadays take a lot longer to make we don't see many SP titles with MP or vice versa and the ones that do often come with a heavy price. Sure Bungie could have slapped a different name on it, but when studios get that big they're on the service train.

And were in an era where the extended universe cuts across books, film and tv etc often using vastly different genres.

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bigsocrates

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@thepanzini: I think we all understand why this happened the way it happened. But that doesn't mean people weren't disappointed by the way it was baited and switched.

And extended universes like that do exist but they generally do not revive a long dormant franchise to do it in the same medium that franchise once existed. So you get a franchise like Star Wars that has been around in every medium for a long time doing a lot of different things, but you didn't get the Top Gun franchise returning as a big musical on the big screen.

The closest I can think of is that Fresh Prince reboot, but even that just took elements that were already in the sitcom and teased them out into a drama.

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apewins

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#12  Edited By apewins

Practically nobody remembers the original Marathon. Even as an old-school PC gamer I had to look at some gameplay on Youtube since it was a Mac exclusive. Which then begs the question why call it that in the first place, but they have the IP lying around and I suppose the name sort of works for an extraction game.

The problem with most online games is that they're dead on arrival due to a non-existent player base, even if they're good, which leads to people like me taking a wait-and-see approach that just adds to the problem. But the Bungie name carries a lot of weight and I do think there's a small opening for this game to become the next big thing.

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bigsocrates

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@apewins: If they're smart they'll pull a game pass and release it day 1 on one of the PS+ tiers. Assures a player base. Then you make up the sales through microtransactions or other platforms (since it's cross platform having a robust PS playerbase will make PC and Xbox players feel safe jumping in.)

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ThePanzini

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#14  Edited By ThePanzini

@bigsocrates: Alien, The Terminator and Rambo all had sequels widley different to the first, Aliens was a completely different genre to its predecessor.

A Fistful of Dollars was remake of a Kurosawa film turned into a western, The Mummy was a horror film in the 30's and Mission Impossible is now a blockbuster action franchise. And we've seen the same in TV with Battlestar Galactica, Perry Mason and Lost in Space.

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bigsocrates

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@thepanzini: Alien, The Terminator, and Rambo had almost immediate sequels that were in the same general genre but tweaked to be more action oriented. Rambo 1 is an action thriller. Rambo 2 is more straight action. Terminator 1 is a dark sci-fi action thriller. Terminator 2 is dark sci fi action. Alien went from sci fi horror to sci fi action horror. And there were not significant time gaps there.

A Fistful of Dollars is irrelevant because it had absolutely no obvious connection to the source and wasn't marketed on that at all. The Mummy just used a generic public domain monster and put it in a new setting with maybe a couple minor winks at the earlier film like calling the mummy Imhotep. It made no attempt to market based on the earlier Universal Horror movie. Mission Impossible went from small screen spy TV show to big budget spy movie and then slowly morphed into a more pure action franchise, but the first movie had many, many, connections to the source material. Battlestar Galactica, Perry Mason, and Lost in Space just took old franchises and remade them in modern style. You can't remake Perry Mason as a 1950s style lawyer show but it's just a 2020s prestige lawyer show. Lost in Space and Battlestar Galactica likewise just moved from 1950s and 1970s style sci fi shows into more modernized versions of the same thing.

None of these are the same as taking a single player focused FPS from the 1990s and making it a zero story multiplayer extraction game in 2020s style. Nobody expected it would be EXACTLY the same as Marathon from the 90s. Like nobody thought there were going to be flat corridors like Wolfenstein with flat sprite enemies. They expected something more like the Doom update, where they took the basic premise and remade it in a modern style with new twists.

Doom 1993 to Doom 2016 is much more similar to Battlestar Galactica 1970s to 1990 or Lost in Space and its remakes. It's the same basic genre but for a new time period.

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michaelenger

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...

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that all this feels like it used to be just some random mode added to a full featured game. Like Call of Duty when it added zombies or then that alien version of zombies.

Now its its own game that you pay for AND put microtransactions into.

...

Oh yeah, I remember those days.. wasn't even that long ago.

@apewins said:

Practically nobody remembers the original Marathon.

...

But the Bungie name carries a lot of weight and I do think there's a small opening for this game to become the next big thing.

I think that bringing back the Marathon name was done to try to get enough people in the door at launch. It's been ages since I actually played Marathon, but the announcement got me keen on checking the game out and I'm probably not alone. "Legendary" IP combined with well-known (and well-liked?) developer means that it may not be DOA when it launches.

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#17  Edited By ThePanzini

@michaelenger: Bungie doesn't need the Marathon name to get eyeballs, it's a near 30 year old IP that has sold in the low six figures. Bungie's name alone carries more stock and if it's not F2P it'll have a massive media blitz. They probably used the Marathon IP as inspiration for the setting back story and lore etc.

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Shindig

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#18 Shindig  Online

I mean, Destiny had a campaign. Maybe Bungie can sneak that in and the live service nonsense can be post-game content.

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bigsocrates

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@shindig: And then they can rip chunks of the campaign out and throw them in the garbage so new players have no way of seeing a cohesive narrative!

It's still wild to me that they got away with taking away content people had paid for on the grounds that "We built this too incompetently to keep it all up at once, even though games like EverQuest that came out in the 90s seem to have managed to do it."

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@allthedinos: At the risk of becoming this forum's resident Redfall defender, Redfall is neither a live-service game, nor is it marketed as one. You can certainly say it tries to be a looter shooter, and can argue that it either does or doesn't fulfill the expectations of that genre, but it's not trying to be a new Destiny.

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michaelenger

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@thepanzini said:

Bungie doesn't need the Marathon name to get eyeballs, ...

It got the attention of my boomer ass, at least :P

But you're probably right. Marathon doesn't really have the sway it did 20 years ago and is probably just slapped on this project because they could. Then articles will be written about how "Bungie is reviving a dormant IP!!" instead of "Bungie is making yet another sci-fi shooter??" It'll be to Marathon what Mario Kart is to the Super Mario games.

At the risk of becoming this forum's resident Redfall defender, Redfall is neither a live-service game, nor is it marketed as one. ...

I think you might be right.. it just feels like one and has that lovely always-online requirement that never backfires /s

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splodge

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It might be good.

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Justin258

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@brian_ said:

Not that I care about either, but I think you might be conflating "looter shooters" and "extraction games", which aren't necessarily the same thing. They're both chasing trends in a similar way though. I think that where loot games have been driven into the ground at this point, with the Suicide Squad reaction and Assassin's Creed going back to the original formula, the chase for the "extraction game" market has just started and there's room for a game to become "the extraction shooter" before publishers eventually run that into the ground like everything else.

EDIT: Also... like... hey, the original Marathon was a Doom clone. The series isn't exactly some bastion of original ideas of story-focused, single-player narrative or something. It's a bunch of guys in a hallway to shoot, chasing the popular trend at the time.

Marathon's gameplay is, largely, pretty much what you say. They're Doom clones, essentially. They have some gameplay innovations - for instance, they rely on save points instead of saving anywhere, they included mouse-look (which wasn't as common at the time as you might think), they included dual-wielding, some of their guns had secondary fire functions, and they had a reload mechanic. These all change up the pace of gameplay and differentiate Marathon's mechanics enough from Doom to make it a little more than a Doom clone, but if you're talking about pure gameplay I'd agree there isn't much there to really build on that hasn't already been built on (reloading) or discarded because it was a bad idea (save points).

But the thing that got me excited was the story. The Marathon games tell their stories entirely through terminals where various different AIs, all of whom have gone rogue in some way and all of whom oppose each other, give your character different goals to achieve throughout those games. The actual narrative happening here gets kind of crazy in a really good way, culminating in a bunch of dimension/timeline-hopping shenanigans in Marathon Infinity - but it's all told through words on a black background, sometimes with an accompanying vague image, in between bouts of first person shooter mayhem and maze-like levels populated with environmental puzzles that maybe aren't so great.

I first got a Discord message saying "they're remaking Marathon!" and it was about twenty minutes before I was in a position to go look into this myself. And I had myself pretty hyped up that this story is what they were going to attempt to work with, only with modern technology and AAA budgets. Which could have done a lot for that story. Instead, when I finally looked into it, I found out that Bungie is using the name to prop up another extraction shooter/live service thing, as if those weren't being mercilessly killed all over the place earlier this year. I found that very disappointing.

Oh well. At least that System Shock remake is actually, maybe, supposedly coming out at the very end of this month and I'll have that to satisfy my far-future space-station rogue-AI FPS appetite. Right? They haven't delayed it again yet.

In case anyone's interested, Bungie made the Marathon engine and the associated games open source projects a long time ago. You can download the community-maintained engine and all three games here, for free, if you're interested in playing the originals. Marathon Durandal was also made into an XBLA game, but none of the others were. If you just want video summaries of what all three of these games are about, a Youtuber called "MandaloreGaming" made a pretty good series on all three games. Frankly, that's what I'm pulling a lot of my interest from - I've played all three games and actually finished Marathon Durandal before, but honestly the actual gameplay of these games isn't really a huge draw for me. Now that I'm thinking about the franchise again, though, I might just go play all three and actually finish them this time.

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NotSoSneakyGuy

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Honestly I think I'll be disappointed, just because of the name.

I think the writing in the Marathon games is incredible, but from their work on Destiny, I have no confidence they will match it in style, tone, or quality.

Not to mention it's probably not even the focus.

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bigsocrates

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@notsosneakyguy: I will never forget NOR FORGIVE how in the original Destiny a lot of the lore was not actually in a game but in like associated apps and websites. Not even like there was ancillary media that filled in the backstory but you would literally unlock stuff in the game and have to go to a website on another device to read it. It was such a massive fuck you. Maybe not as big as the fuck you of no matchmaking for raids.

God I hate modern Bungie. I feel like they don't get enough shit for all their terrible ideas and implementations just because the shooting is good and a lot of people are utterly addicted to the treadmill.

THEY LITERALLY REMOVED CONTENT PEOPLE HAD PAID FOR BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T BUILD TOOLS GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE GAME WORK WITH ALL THE CONTENT IN IT!!!

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sparky_buzzsaw

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What are you talking about? I can't wait to collect eight different in-game currencies and explore the game's super dope lore on a wiki fansite and have content locked after a few months. Games in 2023 are great!

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bigsocrates

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@sparky_buzzsaw: Tears of the Kingdom is phenomenal. And Hi-Fi Rush is among the best shadow drops ever.

But man games as a service sucks because it's never like a GOOD service, it's always a nickel and diming service like the goddamned cable company. It's always unplanned outages, hidden fees, and the constant upsell.

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brian_

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@justin258: Yeah. And I don't mean to sound dismissive about all this. I'm sure there's plenty of reason for fans to be excited about the potential of the thing they liked coming back and expanding the narrative out more than what was possible 30 years ago, and then to be disappointed to find out that might not be what they're getting. It's just the part where the series started in the 90s because someone said "We should make a Doom game too" that makes it hard for me to deride this thing for being a trend chaser.

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Justin258

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@brian_ said:

@justin258: Yeah. And I don't mean to sound dismissive about all this. I'm sure there's plenty of reason for fans to be excited about the potential of the thing they liked coming back and expanding the narrative out more than what was possible 30 years ago, and then to be disappointed to find out that might not be what they're getting. It's just the part where the series started in the 90s because someone said "We should make a Doom game too" that makes it hard for me to deride this thing for being a trend chaser.

My ultimate point is that the product that Bungie put out in the 90's was a lot more than "just a Doom clone, but on the Mac this time!". Sure, they're both retro shooters, but Marathon is doing a lot more than just shooting aliens in the face, and even the shooting aliens in the face part has a different pacing and feel to it. Bungie didn't simply say "We should make a Doom clone", they did something a lot more unique than that.

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glots

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Maybe I’ll try it if it comes to PS+ on day one, but as someone who has no nostalgia for Marathon or much interest at all for online games, I have no expectations.