" @neoyamaneko: You entitled this thread "Anime elitism." "
Did I entitle it, "Anime fans are elitists"? o_O "
One of your examples was "Well, it's a shonen manga, and it's called "One Piece", Shonen and Manga are both common Japanese words that english speaking Manga and Anime fans use. Especially Manga, it is infact a Loanword in english at this point. By using that as your example it infers that you think all fans of Anime and Manga are elitist's, though that may not have been your intent. "
Well it is certainly true that some fans of anime look down on Shonen properties, and I think that was his point
" @neoyamaneko: You entitled this thread "Anime elitism." "
Did I entitle it, "Anime fans are elitists"? o_O "
It's not difficult to infer. "
You know what Benny Hill said about ASS-Uming. "
Funny, I thought Benny Hill just got chased around to the tune of Yakity Sax. :P And I maintain my point that there is nothing elitist about the use of foreign loanwords. "
Fine...and you could have said that without the "you're an ass" talk.
" @AgentJ: For example, Crayon Shin-Chan or Doraemon. These are pretty high profile anime, and their demographics are entitled as "Seinen" and "Kodomo" respectively on their pages. Or if you go to a voice actor's page, they are called "seiyuu", but go to the same voice actor's page on say IMDB, they are called "voice actors". Wouldn't it just be easier for all involved if you took a word like "Kodomo", change it to "Children's Anime" and then hotlink it to "Kodomo anime" for those that want to know more about the genre? "
Those are the sorts of things you don't like? I thought it was more things like "Zanpakutou" versus "Soul Slayer" or Shinigami versus Soul Reaper. Come on, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that the list of names next to a bunch of character names are the voice actors. Shonen, Seinen, and Kodomo are in a similar boat. It's just one of those things. Every hobby has it's own words. Would you rather that baseball called a home run a "ball hit out of the park"? or a crepe a "jelly pancake"? It's something you'll figure out if you follow the stuff. It has nothing to do with elitism. There are certainly people who are anal about such things, but the majority of the fandom is reasonable. you just need to find a good community.
" @neoyamaneko: You entitled this thread "Anime elitism." "
Did I entitle it, "Anime fans are elitists"? o_O "
It's not difficult to infer. "
You know what Benny Hill said about ASS-Uming. "
Funny, I thought Benny Hill just got chased around to the tune of Yakity Sax. :P And I maintain my point that there is nothing elitist about the use of foreign loanwords. "
Fine...and you could have said that without the "you're an ass" talk. "
And I apologize for calling you an ass right off the bat.
" They're pretty specific terms really. But I wouldn't consider it elitism of any type, in fact I don't see where it even comes in. "
The usage of Japanese terms to go over the heads of people not in the know just for the sake of doing it is elitism. "
You really think that people use such terms just to be purposely obtuse to outsiders? Sure, okay. I see your point. It's an incredibly stupid point that's based entirely on your subjective opinion and is lacking completely in merit, but it's a point. "
You're one of those militant anime fanboys, aren't you? At what point did you think it was okay to skip right past the debate and go straight to flaming me and would you be so quick to calling me stupid and an ass if I were sitting across from you? The thing is that I would say the same thing if you were sitting across from me.The power of the internet.....sigh. "
I'm hardly a militant fanboy. What I don't like is being called an elitist by somebody doing little more than expressing baseless internet rage without doing their research first. By my book, that makes you an ass, and if you were sitting across a table from me and called me that, I would insult you in return. Fair is fair. "
Just a look at animenewsnetwork and other anime messageboards and the anime pages on wikipedia would show what I say to be far from "baseless internet rage". And if that truly is your attitude about someone saying something you don't like, then you must not have many friends. "
If you're basing this "elitism" on anime sites and forums I don't understand your complaint. People that visit those sites usually know the lingo, so of course it would be thrown about there. It would be like if I complained about "gaming elitism" because people used MMORPG or FPS on giantbomb. You have yet give a good example of this "elitism".
" @AgentJ: For example, Crayon Shin-Chan or Doraemon. These are pretty high profile anime, and their demographics are entitled as "Seinen" and "Kodomo" respectively on their pages. Or if you go to a voice actor's page, they are called "seiyuu", but go to the same voice actor's page on say IMDB, they are called "voice actors". Wouldn't it just be easier for all involved if you took a word like "Kodomo", change it to "Children's Anime" and then hotlink it to "Kodomo anime" for those that want to know more about the genre? "
Those are the sorts of things you don't like? I thought it was more things like "Zanpakutou" versus "Soul Slayer" or Shinigami versus Soul Reaper. Come on, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that the list of names next to a bunch of character names are the voice actors. Shonen, Seinen, and Kodomo are in a similar boat. It's just one of those things. Every hobby has it's own words. Would you rather that baseball called a home run a "ball hit out of the park"? or a crepe a "jelly pancake"? It's something you'll figure out if you follow the stuff. It has nothing to do with elitism. There are certainly people who are anal about such things, but the majority of the fandom is reasonable. you just need to find a good community. "
I explained this in the OP. I'm not talking about a literal translation for everything like "Beef Bowl" instead of "Gyudon", but opting out of using words that everyone knows and conveys the same meaning that are just as short for another word in another language that only your clique would know. And I've heard the loanword defense being used, and that is fine only if there wasn't a visual or mental concept for that word until a foreign influence manifested it. For example, there was no word for sexual harassment in Japanese until around the early 90s due to it (still) being a male centered society. It became "sekuhara" due to the increase of the phenomenon outside of Japan. There is already a mental concept of words like Kodomo and the like in English, so the using them as loanwords really doesn't apply.
@MrKlorox: I live in Japan and I'm a *very* light watcher of anime. Most of what I watch was made in the 70s. Let's just say I've sat back and watched the shift of the fandom over the past decade.
" @AgentJ: For example, Crayon Shin-Chan or Doraemon. These are pretty high profile anime, and their demographics are entitled as "Seinen" and "Kodomo" respectively on their pages. Or if you go to a voice actor's page, they are called "seiyuu", but go to the same voice actor's page on say IMDB, they are called "voice actors". Wouldn't it just be easier for all involved if you took a word like "Kodomo", change it to "Children's Anime" and then hotlink it to "Kodomo anime" for those that want to know more about the genre? "
Those are the sorts of things you don't like? I thought it was more things like "Zanpakutou" versus "Soul Slayer" or Shinigami versus Soul Reaper. Come on, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that the list of names next to a bunch of character names are the voice actors. Shonen, Seinen, and Kodomo are in a similar boat. It's just one of those things. Every hobby has it's own words. Would you rather that baseball called a home run a "ball hit out of the park"? or a crepe a "jelly pancake"? It's something you'll figure out if you follow the stuff. It has nothing to do with elitism. There are certainly people who are anal about such things, but the majority of the fandom is reasonable. you just need to find a good community. "
I explained this in the OP. I'm not talking about a literal translation for everything like "Beef Bowl" instead of "Gyudon", but opting out of using words that everyone knows and conveys the same meaning that are just as short for another word in another language that only your clique would know. And I've heard the loanword defense being used, and that is fine only if there wasn't a visual or mental concept for that word until a foreign influence manifested it. For example, there was no word for sexual harassment in Japanese until around the early 90s due to it (still) being a male centered society. It became "sekuhara" due to the increase of the phenomenon outside of Japan. There is already a mental concept of these words in English, so the using them as loanwords really doesn't apply. "
Like I said though, these are very basic things that will come to people quickly if they begin to pay attention to the medium. It's not like they have to have a masters in Japanese to get these words. It's no different than sports terminology. After all, why don't they call a rough play in soccer "checking", like in hockey? Maybe you don't see it this way, but I'd say it's exactly the same thing.
" @AgentJ: For example, Crayon Shin-Chan or Doraemon. These are pretty high profile anime, and their demographics are entitled as "Seinen" and "Kodomo" respectively on their pages. Or if you go to a voice actor's page, they are called "seiyuu", but go to the same voice actor's page on say IMDB, they are called "voice actors". Wouldn't it just be easier for all involved if you took a word like "Kodomo", change it to "Children's Anime" and then hotlink it to "Kodomo anime" for those that want to know more about the genre? "
Those are the sorts of things you don't like? I thought it was more things like "Zanpakutou" versus "Soul Slayer" or Shinigami versus Soul Reaper. Come on, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that the list of names next to a bunch of character names are the voice actors. Shonen, Seinen, and Kodomo are in a similar boat. It's just one of those things. Every hobby has it's own words. Would you rather that baseball called a home run a "ball hit out of the park"? or a crepe a "jelly pancake"? It's something you'll figure out if you follow the stuff. It has nothing to do with elitism. There are certainly people who are anal about such things, but the majority of the fandom is reasonable. you just need to find a good community. "
I explained this in the OP. I'm not talking about a literal translation for everything like "Beef Bowl" instead of "Gyudon", but opting out of using words that everyone knows and conveys the same meaning that are just as short for another word in another language that only your clique would know. And I've heard the loanword defense being used, and that is fine only if there wasn't a visual or mental concept for that word until a foreign influence manifested it. For example, there was no word for sexual harassment in Japanese until around the early 90s due to it (still) being a male centered society. It became "sekuhara" due to the increase of the phenomenon outside of Japan. There is already a mental concept of these words in English, so the using them as loanwords really doesn't apply. "
Like I said though, these are very basic things that will come to people quickly if they begin to pay attention to the medium. It's not like they have to have a masters in Japanese to get these words. It's no different than sports terminology. After all, why don't they call a rough play in soccer "checking", like in hockey? Maybe you don't see it this way, but I'd say it's exactly the same thing. "
Difference being that the regents of sport created those terms for whatever reason. Anime terms are just mundane Japanese words and a majority of them have a functional English equivalent. It's the more "spirited" portion of the fandom that made the terms "must knows" and not any animator.
" @AgentJ: For example, Crayon Shin-Chan or Doraemon. These are pretty high profile anime, and their demographics are entitled as "Seinen" and "Kodomo" respectively on their pages. Or if you go to a voice actor's page, they are called "seiyuu", but go to the same voice actor's page on say IMDB, they are called "voice actors". Wouldn't it just be easier for all involved if you took a word like "Kodomo", change it to "Children's Anime" and then hotlink it to "Kodomo anime" for those that want to know more about the genre? "
Those are the sorts of things you don't like? I thought it was more things like "Zanpakutou" versus "Soul Slayer" or Shinigami versus Soul Reaper. Come on, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that the list of names next to a bunch of character names are the voice actors. Shonen, Seinen, and Kodomo are in a similar boat. It's just one of those things. Every hobby has it's own words. Would you rather that baseball called a home run a "ball hit out of the park"? or a crepe a "jelly pancake"? It's something you'll figure out if you follow the stuff. It has nothing to do with elitism. There are certainly people who are anal about such things, but the majority of the fandom is reasonable. you just need to find a good community. "
I explained this in the OP. I'm not talking about a literal translation for everything like "Beef Bowl" instead of "Gyudon", but opting out of using words that everyone knows and conveys the same meaning that are just as short for another word in another language that only your clique would know. And I've heard the loanword defense being used, and that is fine only if there wasn't a visual or mental concept for that word until a foreign influence manifested it. For example, there was no word for sexual harassment in Japanese until around the early 90s due to it (still) being a male centered society. It became "sekuhara" due to the increase of the phenomenon outside of Japan. There is already a mental concept of these words in English, so the using them as loanwords really doesn't apply. "
Like I said though, these are very basic things that will come to people quickly if they begin to pay attention to the medium. It's not like they have to have a masters in Japanese to get these words. It's no different than sports terminology. After all, why don't they call a rough play in soccer "checking", like in hockey? Maybe you don't see it this way, but I'd say it's exactly the same thing. "
Difference being that the regents of sport created those terms for whatever reason. Anime terms are just mundane Japanese words and a majority of them have a functional English equivalent. It's the more "spirited" portion of the fandom that made the terms "must knows" and not any animator. "
Have you ever seen a sports fans face when they hear you say the wrong word? It's just as bad, if not worse. I called the guys who run up and down the sidelines at soccer games "line judges" on a forum once, and i'm still hearing about it. Line judge would work just as well, and the meaning is properly interpreted, but that's just not what soccer fans say. ALL hobbies have these sorts of truncations.
" @AgentJ: For example, Crayon Shin-Chan or Doraemon. These are pretty high profile anime, and their demographics are entitled as "Seinen" and "Kodomo" respectively on their pages. Or if you go to a voice actor's page, they are called "seiyuu", but go to the same voice actor's page on say IMDB, they are called "voice actors". Wouldn't it just be easier for all involved if you took a word like "Kodomo", change it to "Children's Anime" and then hotlink it to "Kodomo anime" for those that want to know more about the genre? "
Those are the sorts of things you don't like? I thought it was more things like "Zanpakutou" versus "Soul Slayer" or Shinigami versus Soul Reaper. Come on, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that the list of names next to a bunch of character names are the voice actors. Shonen, Seinen, and Kodomo are in a similar boat. It's just one of those things. Every hobby has it's own words. Would you rather that baseball called a home run a "ball hit out of the park"? or a crepe a "jelly pancake"? It's something you'll figure out if you follow the stuff. It has nothing to do with elitism. There are certainly people who are anal about such things, but the majority of the fandom is reasonable. you just need to find a good community. "
I explained this in the OP. I'm not talking about a literal translation for everything like "Beef Bowl" instead of "Gyudon", but opting out of using words that everyone knows and conveys the same meaning that are just as short for another word in another language that only your clique would know. And I've heard the loanword defense being used, and that is fine only if there wasn't a visual or mental concept for that word until a foreign influence manifested it. For example, there was no word for sexual harassment in Japanese until around the early 90s due to it (still) being a male centered society. It became "sekuhara" due to the increase of the phenomenon outside of Japan. There is already a mental concept of these words in English, so the using them as loanwords really doesn't apply. "
Like I said though, these are very basic things that will come to people quickly if they begin to pay attention to the medium. It's not like they have to have a masters in Japanese to get these words. It's no different than sports terminology. After all, why don't they call a rough play in soccer "checking", like in hockey? Maybe you don't see it this way, but I'd say it's exactly the same thing. "
Difference being that the regents of sport created those terms for whatever reason. Anime terms are just mundane Japanese words and a majority of them have a functional English equivalent. It's the more "spirited" portion of the fandom that made the terms "must knows" and not any animator. "
Have you ever seen a sports fans face when they hear you say the wrong word? It's just as bad, if not worse. I called the guys who run up and down the sidelines at soccer games "line judges" on a forum once, and i'm still hearing about it. Line judge would work just as well, and the meaning is properly interpreted, but that's just not what soccer fans say. ALL hobbies have these sorts of truncations. "
As an example what if I was to say Command and Conquer is an "Army Commander Game" its essentially true but I would get taken up for it. Mario is a jumping game? Instead of a Platformer. I see those the same as calling an Anime a "Japanese Cartoon", thats only valid in the context of an initial explanation.
" As an example what if I was to say Command and Conquer is an "Army Commander Game" its essentially true but I would get taken up for it. Mario is a jumping game? Instead of a Platformer. I see those the same as calling an Anime a "Japanese Cartoon", thats only valid in the context of an initial explanation. "
Saying Naruto is a young boys comic rather than saying its a Shonen comic is the same thing.
" As an example what if I was to say Command and Conquer is an "Army Commander Game" its essentially true but I would get taken up for it. Mario is a jumping game? Instead of a Platformer. I see those the same as calling an Anime a "Japanese Cartoon", thats only valid in the context of an initial explanation. "
Saying Naruto is a young boys comic rather than saying its a Shonen comic is the same thing. "
I would agree that Young Boys and Shonen essentially mean the same thing I wouldent say that a Manga is a Comic. There are many diffrences fundamel to them that seperate them from comics, though as an overarching art form I would put them in the same space I would not say that Manga and Comics are the same. While its almost like saying "Its japanese therefore its Manga" its more than simple that, its the cuture it comes from that informs how it will be set up, the archtypes of characters and even the contruction of the panels. For me a Manga like Naruto is not the same thing as, for example, an X-Men Comic book. While they are very similer there are many cultural diffrences that seperate them, its one of the many reasons why a someone who is a fan of Iron-Man isnt neccaserily a fan of Bleach, they are very diffrent, while someone who is a fan of X-Men is very likely to also be into, or appreciate, Batman: The Killing Joke for example since they are constructed very similarely and come from the same culture.
" As an example what if I was to say Command and Conquer is an "Army Commander Game" its essentially true but I would get taken up for it. Mario is a jumping game? Instead of a Platformer. I see those the same as calling an Anime a "Japanese Cartoon", thats only valid in the context of an initial explanation. "
Saying Naruto is a young boys comic rather than saying its a Shonen comic is the same thing. "
I would agree that Young Boys and Shonen essentially mean the same thing I wouldent say that a Manga is a Comic. There are many diffrences fundamel to them that seperate them from comics, though as an overarching art form I would put them in the same space I would not say that Manga and Comics are the same. While its almost like saying "Its japanese therefore its Manga" its more than simple that, its the cuture it comes from that informs how it will be set up, the archtypes of characters and even the contruction of the panels. For me a Manga like Naruto is not the same thing as, for example, an X-Men Comic book. While they are very similer there are many cultural diffrences that seperate them, its one of the many reasons why a someone who is a fan of Iron-Man isnt neccaserily a fan of Bleach, they are very diffrent, while someone who is a fan of X-Men is very likely to also be into, or appreciate, Batman: The Killing Joke for example since they are constructed very similarely and come from the same culture. "
Right, though this guy is a fan of both Iron Man and Bleach : )
" I don't see it as being "elistist" it's just a way to differentiate anime from western comics/cartoons. "
And therein the feeling lies/ "
Are you saying you'd feel better if everyone went back to calling anime "Japanimation?" "
Was that a bad term to begin with?
Just because one media is constructed differently from another doesn't change that they are fundamentally the same media. Japanese movies are constructed different from Hollywood movies, but we don't call them "wasei eiga"....we call them Japanese movies.
You need to find a better cause for fighting my friend..Try terrorism... But friends, people try and hide things in different languages all the time. Like I can say "I watch a shitlode of anime" where as I am ashamed to say "I watch a shitlode of cartoons" because people reference cartoons with the specific kids cartoons here in the UK and probably the US as well, and saying adult cartoons just sounds like some hentai bullshit. It's to kind of hide the meaning of things from different cultures (e.g japan) to be related to in are culture, because of the common stereotypes between them
" As an example what if I was to say Command and Conquer is an "Army Commander Game" its essentially true but I would get taken up for it. Mario is a jumping game? Instead of a Platformer. I see those the same as calling an Anime a "Japanese Cartoon", thats only valid in the context of an initial explanation. "
Saying Naruto is a young boys comic rather than saying its a Shonen comic is the same thing. "
I would agree that Young Boys and Shonen essentially mean the same thing I wouldent say that a Manga is a Comic. There are many diffrences fundamel to them that seperate them from comics, though as an overarching art form I would put them in the same space I would not say that Manga and Comics are the same. While its almost like saying "Its japanese therefore its Manga" its more than simple that, its the cuture it comes from that informs how it will be set up, the archtypes of characters and even the contruction of the panels. For me a Manga like Naruto is not the same thing as, for example, an X-Men Comic book. While they are very similer there are many cultural diffrences that seperate them, its one of the many reasons why a someone who is a fan of Iron-Man isnt neccaserily a fan of Bleach, they are very diffrent, while someone who is a fan of X-Men is very likely to also be into, or appreciate, Batman: The Killing Joke for example since they are constructed very similarely and come from the same culture. "
Right, though this guy is a fan of both Iron Man and Bleach : ) "
As am I which is why I said neccaserily ;) Its not a definate that someone who enjoys comics will enjoy manga, or that an anime fan will enjoy cartoons.
" I don't see it as being "elistist" it's just a way to differentiate anime from western comics/cartoons. "
And therein the feeling lies/ "
Are you saying you'd feel better if everyone went back to calling anime "Japanimation?" "
Was that a bad term to begin with? Just because one media is constructed differently from another doesn't change that they are fundamentally the same media. Japanese movies are constructed different from Hollywood movies, but we don't call them "wasei eiga"....we call them Japanese movies. "
Why make up a word to describe something when another word conveniently already exists?
" I don't see it as being "elistist" it's just a way to differentiate anime from western comics/cartoons. "
And therein the feeling lies/ "
Are you saying you'd feel better if everyone went back to calling anime "Japanimation?" "
Was that a bad term to begin with? Just because one media is constructed differently from another doesn't change that they are fundamentally the same media. Japanese movies are constructed different from Hollywood movies, but we don't call them "wasei eiga"....we call them Japanese movies. "
Why make up a word to describe something when another word conveniently already exists? "
" I don't see it as being "elistist" it's just a way to differentiate anime from western comics/cartoons. "
And therein the feeling lies/ "
Are you saying you'd feel better if everyone went back to calling anime "Japanimation?" "
Was that a bad term to begin with?"
To my ears it sounds wierdly offensive, though if we call it Japanimation why not call it Americamation or Europeanunionomation lol I beleive the word Anime derives from the Japanese word for western animation (Animeshon).
" @Hailinel said: " @neoyamaneko said: " @Hailinel said: " @neoyamaneko said: " @Black_Rose said: " I don't see it as being "elistist" it's just a way to differentiate anime from western comics/cartoons. "And therein the feeling lies/ "Are you saying you'd feel better if everyone went back to calling anime "Japanimation?" "Was that a bad term to begin with? Just because one media is constructed differently from another doesn't change that they are fundamentally the same media. Japanese movies are constructed different from Hollywood movies, but we don't call them "wasei eiga"....we call them Japanese movies. "Why make up a word to describe something when another word conveniently already exists? "Ah....but it *does* exist in Japanese. "
Can you explain that a bit more, I dont quite understand what you mean.
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