@genericbrotagonist: I agree, but i certainly felt that way playing Ni No Kuni. Not in the 'ugh i'm embarrassed to play this kiddie game' kind of way that you refer to though. More of an 'Okay game.. i understand how this heart stuff works.. you don't have to spend multiple hours on this subject. I get that you're trying to make this concept known to a younger audience that might need more time for this, but i would like to just go on with the game' .

@onemanarmyy: It's absolutely targeted at younger kids, but that doesn't mean it can't be good or enjoyed by anyone else. There are some truly talented creators out there who have great and meaningful stories to tell regardless of who they're targeted at.

@genericbrotagonist: I agree. But it's still a reason why it's so easy to mock.

Because it's like a bad anime. Plain and simple.

the games are all bad

Because vocal minorities use grand sweeping statements, like this post, to draw people in and make them believe that there is only one opinion when there in fact are many.

@crazybagman: That's not what I meant. KH has been low hanging fruit for years now. Partly because its fanbase is vocal (and annoyingly hostile) and partly because of the game itself not lending itself to new players easily. Especially if it didn't catch you at the same time it caught them. The KH series is massively flawed but it has the loyal fans it does for a reason. For the people who like poking the hornet nest, KH is a bad game for kids. The hornets themselves, don't understand why everyone doesn't see what they see.

My comment was meant to swing both ways. Maybe it's just a lack of trying to understand each other.

Because the fucking story is incomprehensible.

It wouldn't be so bad if it was Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2

But there's like 10 games on handhelds. How can they call it Kingdom Hearts 3 if it's like the tenth game?

@sombre: It's really not that hard to understand. If people would just judge the games on their own merits instead of complaining about how they're named and what console they were originally released on they would know that.

I wonder if the people saying "the story is incomprehensible" have actually finished a single KH game

I played the first two. I would assume that'd be enough to keep up with KH3, but they released so many side games since then

Personally, I've always assumed its because Kingdom Heart's games are really kid's game and Giant Bomb doesn't really focus on kid's games. People can really be into the KH franchise but its still mostly for kids.

Also, if you're getting triggered by Ben goofing on the franchise and NOT being a mean or antagonistic about it? Not really sure what to say then.

Also, you should be able to play 1 game and have a grasp on the story of that game without having to play the sequel and more just to get anything out of it. People take this franchise way too seriously if this is the mess we're in now, lol. This reminds me of when we were getting a ton of Dark Souls content on this site and people wanted to argue about x person "not playing it right" but then getting mad when told not to do that.

We don't hate it as much as stare at it in slack jawed amazement that

1. It continues to exists and sell well
2. Its as fucking convoluted as it is with people trying to say that it somehow in some possible sense makes sense to anyone who is not completely high out of their mind

Seriously I think the games look and feel is great but my god someone needed to take an axe to the story like 7 games ago.

Also hey before the PS4 compilations you had to own a PS2, PSP, DS, 3DS, and a smartphone to be able to play all the canon games. Theres such a thing a spreading your story too thin.

@sombre: They're not side games, and going from what you've said so far you know this. If you decide to skip them just because they don't have a 3 on the box then you shouldn't be surprised when you don't know what's happening later.

@sammo21: It's as much of a kid's game as any Nintendo game is. Sure they're mostly aimed at kids, but many adults (the GB crew included) have gotten tons of enjoyment out of them over the years.

Kingdom Heartache was absolutely antagonistic. The very foundation of the feature was ironic in nature. All him and the guests ever did was make fun of the game. He never even bothered to pay attention to any of the cutscenes in what is a very story heavy series, and then was blaming the game when he had no idea what to do.

You can absolutely play the first game and get everything intended out of it, it was conceived as a stand alone story. Just don't expect to then skip 5 entries and have any idea what'd going on. That's like reading The Gunslinger and skipping right to The Dark Tower.

The problem isn't that people "aren't playing it right" it's that they're not playing it at all aside from at most KH 1&2 and thinking they have anywhere near the information necessary to have an opinion on the quality of the franchise at this point.

@genericbrotagonist but many adults (the GB crew included) have gotten tons of enjoyment out of them over the years.:

Yup, and I said that. Doesn't mean it is not a "kid's game". Adults can get a ton of fun out of something primarily made for kids...doesn't change anything.

Kingdom Heartache was absolutely antagonistic. The very foundation of the feature was ironic in nature. All him and the guests ever did was make fun of the game. He never even bothered to pay attention to any of the cutscenes in what is a very story heavy series, and then was blaming the game when he had no idea what to do.

Again, I addressed this as well. People are just getting pissy that a series they enjoy is being goof on. After 2-3 episodes its completely apparent that's what is happening but people only like the goofs and gaffes when its towards something they don't really care about.

Has Giant Bomb angered the Garfield Giant Bomb sub-community yet?

@sammo21: Garfield is completely different. Kingdom Heartache was specifically done to fuck with the Giant Bomb fans who have been asking for any sort of sincere Kingdom Hearts coverage for years. Lasagna World Tour was played to make fun of a budget game that few had ever even heard of. While I'm sure that game must have it's fans, they were not the target.

For what it's worth, been slowly crawling through the collection and enjoy a lot of it.

@genericbrotagonist: If you think Kingdom Heartache was made specifically with the primary or even secondary intent to insult, abuse and humiliate you as a fan..you really need to take a step back from the issue and re-consider it; As it was absolutely none of those things.

I get that Ben's sense of humor isn't to everyone's tastes, I don't find it appealing. But to think the staff is specifically going after their fan-base in the way you intimate is several steps too far.

@bladededge: Just the videos I could understand, but what felt especially mean was the way there was so much secrecy around the whole thing to intentionally get fan's hopes up just for it to turn out the way it did and then suddenly end it and refuse to talk about it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that to me felt absolutely like something done to kick a fanbase that is already so far down in the eyes of the gaming community.

Not that this thread is directly about Kingdom Heartache but...

I didn't get the impression that Kingdom Heartache was ever supposed to be a dig on the game. It seemed to me that Ben actually wanted to get through it and was genuinely interested in getting caught up for KH3. I think the joke of the series was just bringing people in who were maybe less interested in this idea and "tricking" them to sit in on an episode; the joke wasn't supposed to be on the game as much as the people with him. Unfortunately I think this derailed the series since there wasn't any continuity or support for Ben, on the couch.

This, and the dated game mechanics led to Ben having to keep things interesting, with no real follow through from previous episodes.

I'm not a KH fan at all but I was much more interested in Kingdom Heartache after the first episode when I thought it was just going to Ben and Brad playing through the game, like a weekly endurance run.

I played 1 and 2. I actively hated almost everything in the first game, thought the premise was interesting enough to give it another chance for the second game, but hated almost everything in it also. I have had this opinion since day one of both games.

I think they aren’t fun to play, and the story isn’t complicated to me I just think it’s poor. The characters that aren’t from Disney or any other Squaresoft games are boringly generic, which makes it hard for me to give a shit about anything that happens, also the whole “Heartless” thing makes me feel like their referencing the Neverending Story 2.

That’s how I feel about it, but I’m friends with people that really enjoy all of Kingdom Hearts, and I recognize that it’s just not for me. The Giantbomb staff have said negative things about games I really enjoy, and I don’t feel personally slighted by it. I just listen to what they say and either agree with somethings or disagree completely. Nothing about Kingdom Heartache felt nefarious to me, but I don’t have a horse in the race.

Enjoy what you enjoy, and ignore anything that irritates you.

Ugh, a lot of this thread gives me the cringes. Is it that hard to understand that making fun of something is not necessarily a "hateful" thing, and you can't "hurt" a game franchise's feelings? You can only hurt the feelings of those who identify with it to such a bizarre level that it would even cross their mind to be miffed about it.

Comedians make fun of things they like, or love, overall ALL THE TIME! Themselves, their family, their kids, their friends, the groups they feel a part of, etc - the things they know most about are generally things they're probably fond of, and they make fun of what they know - but making fun / joking is not meant to be hurtful when a comedian is doing it, and usually, outside of childhood/primary school, neither is a friend doing the same. Lots of friendships are based on shared comedic sense, making jabs at each other - it, in my generation, is almost always a "good thing"! But even if not, taking personal offense or any offense at this is definitely something you'd only see from the "target audience" for it - and whomever that really is outside of tweens, I'll never know.

For example, as a young person that was a bit past the age of this series' target market, I went in with an attitude of "there must be something to this, since a couple people I know like it SO much, even though it seems like the worst idea ever (and I never liked any of Disney's traditional characters or films - some were ok, but definitely not anything with Mickey & friends in it, for example)..." - and I tried, but that sentiment was only cemented further as I tried. I don't hate JRPGs, but I strongly dislike most of them, and really like a few... that's not what the problem is here though, IMO.

I was born in '81, and I can honestly tell you that out of 100 or so friends/acquaintances that play video games and I've talked to over the years, only 1-2 of them can even stand this series, let alone be hardcore fans of it - but the 1-2 that like it, LOVE IT (and also happen to be quite socially awkward, to put it nicely. And I don't mean nerdy, geeky or similar - which I myself always have proudly been - I mean they're childish, in the worst ways, and are ALSO those things). I don't even know any men, or boys when I was a kid, that like Disney's (traditional) characters, period (of course that's a stereotype and not 100% true like anything, but it is definitely mostly true in my experience)... Disney's traditional characters were definitely seen as "for young children and/or girls" for as long as I can remember, among my age group/various locations I've lived in.

Combining bad, silly, stereotypical (to the point of being harmful stereotypes, in the Disney tradition since the beginning) characters with a completely whacky game/story/universe is going to be something that a few people may love, but most will feel the opposite - or just avoid it entirely and not really even think about it. Combine that ALSO with a confusion over whether one is deriving pleasure from it due to mostly nostalgia or true long-standing greatness, and you get people angry about Kingdom Hearts, for example - either angry at it, or angry at those whose opinions don't agree with another's opinions about it.

Besides, you can't let people's opinions hurt your feelings, especially when the topic is so "first world" - who cares? Does it hurt anyone (justifiably) that they don't like, or even make fun of, the series? If it does, it's the person choosing what hurts their feelings, not the opinion, at "fault". It's akin to corporate worship - the fanboy syndrome. Nintendo's better, Sega's better... Xbox/PS.... etc. Childish. Not worth even thinking about, let alone getting angry/sad or in any way emotional about! The meanest things I've ever said aloud have been to my best friends, and they do it back - it's social bonding, like a contest to see if we can actually offend each other. In the end, it made it so that we generally couldn't be offended unless it was truly, seriously harmful to someone. And it was just my group of friends, I found the same is true at any job I've ever had, etc.

I'd say, refocus your attention/anger/pain on things that matter, not trivialities. Not that games are trivial (some, if not most, are though - but that's ok), but letting them get you down because someone else doesn't feel the same way as you do is not a productive or fun way to go about life...

All I am saying about stepping back and considering the situation is this. Take a moment, re-read your response. Your coming from an extremely defensive position; part of a community under-seige that has already taken multiple blows and denigration by those who should be allies. Its not that I don't get where your coming from, that's an incredibly emotionally charged way to feel.

I am just saying that if you are able to strip the emotions out of the issue you might see the amount of ill-intent your assuming has to exist is a very big leap. Staff/this community would not only have to think as badly of the KH community/fans as you think, but all be in on the attack/mocking of it. That's a lot of hate and nasty intention to place on strangers shoulders. Perhaps the actions your seeing as personal attacks on you/the community you feel a part of are not so, but only seem to be through the lens of someone who is already primed to see anything that 'could' be, as such.

That's all I can say to the issue. Your gonna feel how your going to feel, and I can't get into staff or anyone else's head and declare for absolute certain your wrong. I'm just offering the option to consider the alternative.

They don't like the series because all of the KH games are bad. Always have been.

The OP's post that started this thread was very reasonable and concise. I think the answer to the original question of this thread is that Giant Bomb hates the Kingdom Hearts franchise because they flat out don't like the games, either from directly playing them or from watching content from them. I think a lot of what has followed in this thread is going a bit overboard.

Kingdom Heartache ended up being a mistake in a lot of our minds. Contrast it instead to the Nintendo Download Express Podcast that Jeff did years ago. That was funny and nobody got hurt. I think that was the goal of Kingdom Heartache and it just missed the mark. It happens. Ben is a very funny and clever guy. The next thing he tries along these lines will likely come off much, much better.

I don't like this thread's implication that Kingdom Heartache is over.

It still has a tab on the video page. Ben made some great progress on that last episode so I've been on the edge of my seat for like... 6 months or so.

the price of entry is more of the price of time (which you can never get back no matter what. just ask gamestop)

its not all series you need to go back but i basically went and just played 2 because i was too young and dumb to finish one and i had no idea what was going on. without the other games the beginning of KH 2 makes no sense and has very little pay off if you have no idea if i remember correctly

@csl316:

If having a tab means that there could still be more of something then that means there’s still hope for another episode of the Bombin in the AM with Scoops and the Wolf podcast.

...what the hell ever happened to Million Dollar Abby?

wow did not see the second page of the thread. i have some points

for the people comparing the garfield series is completely different. i watched the series and enjoyed it. jeff gave that game a legitimate shot and completed it. He gave constructive criticism because its not a great game. In Kingdom Heartache i liked the oh fake not really doing a feature thing but ben's story got old real quick for me

i also noticed the people who say "the story is incomprehensible" are repeating things already discussed in the thread. just a coincidence that they aren't paying attention thread yet cant understand the story.

as @genericbrotagonist said you shouldn't need to play multiple games to understand the story. for those who dont have you watched the video i posted in the thread? if so do you still feel like the story is bad and incomprehensible

also to the guy who wrote a 5 paragraph essay to say kh fans are childish needs a chill pill

when I made the thread I was just curious why people didnt like it and it seems like its mechanics (wasnt not thrilled with the design decision in KH 2 myself) it being anime (good or bad) and disney appeal didnt pull them in long enough for the game to stick.

I'm sorry but this is so baffling to me. You shouldn't have to play the games in the story to understand the story?

So you shouldn't have to watch all the Star Wars movies to understand the full story of star wars? You shouldn't have to watched all 3 lord of the rings to understand the LOTR story? It's a series. They are sequels. You even said yourself the first one you played was kingdom hearts 2 and it made no sense....well....yeah. Of course nothing is going to make sense and of course you're not going to know what's going on. You played Kingdom Hearts 2 without even at least playing the first one.

I totally understand the complaint about the installments being spread out on multiple consoles but this complaint of "I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THE THINGS IN THIS SERIES TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON" makes zero sense whatsoever.

It's generally understood by people who have played the games in the series that there are no "side stories" in the KH franchise. If you didn't want to play Chain of Memories, 358/2 Days, Birth By Sleep, and the rest of the games that weren't called "Kingdom Hearts" and "Kingdom Hearts 2" that's on you. All the games and stories are now on the PS4 so if you really want to get caught up you have a way to accomplish that on a single console.

Do people read a book series like Harry Potter and complain about not understanding the story if they've only read the 2nd and 5th book?

^^^^^

While I'm not big on how Kingdom Heartache went down (host not enjoying himself, cohosts completely disinterested, comment sections being 90% shitposting or angry fans), Kingdom Hearts is one of my favourite game series and I still mock it mercilessly. It's hard to take a lot of it seriously, but it's also got moment-to-moment charm and some pretty fun gameplay alongside stellar music and art. The characters are melodramatic and stupid, the Disney stuff is damn-near pointless window dressing these days.

It's a real mixed bag even as a fan, so it never remotely surprises me that people aren't into it. It does surprise me how eager so many people are to announce just how much they dislike it.

KH fans on this site can dream that it would one day be treated like Garfield was treated. And thanks to all those on this thread telling others their feelings are wrong when it comes to Kingdom Heartache being insulting to them (intended or otherwise).

I dunno, when KH3 comes out there might be some good content on it. Story aside, hopefully the combat system will be interesting & fun to play with and that is definitely enough for a quick look. Given that there just haven't been any entries on main consoles (besides re-releases) since Giantbomb started, one doesn't require a big conspiracy theory to explain lack of KH content on the site.

I just want to say, I had watched a play through before going to KH 2. You should still be able to create a stream of consciousness for at least the console. 100% with you, wouldn't understand everything without playing the other games. That doesn't take away that the way the series was implemented created large enough plot gaps for players to notice. When the game first comes out is the biggest impact on reception. due to the other games not being on the platform, hurts it. the widespread of the internet was not as realized as it is now 13 years ago so access the story was harder.

Even fans of Kingdom Hearts will admit that the series goes pretty far off the rails at times. It's fairly easy to have a laugh at, and even those that love the series will poke fun at it.

That said, Giant Bomb does have a lot of blind spots in their video game preferences.

Story's all over the place I don't really care I think almost every video game storytelling is bad or just okay. Though it's pretty clear where KH3 is headed now where all the good guys and all the bad guys are going to duke it out and that's exciting - as well as seeing the BBS characters come back. Also the games just play nicely and have a deceptive level of depth, even 1 with its Tech Points that introduced parrying and ripostes, implemented weaknesses and resistances and positional attacking that gave you practical rewards as well as being satisfying to pull off at a time where real time combat still wasn't really going anywhere. I could be wrong as I'm a youngin but it looks like games aiming to do combat systems before devil may cry and games after devil may cry changed so much. Comparing KH2 to KH1's combat it's way more flashy and allowed you just style on enemies more. KH3 looks to have a good balance of everything they've introduced since then.

The games are so fun and just have an impenetrable surface for some people. Doesn't really matter to me it's their loss and they're going to be snide losers about everything but..when they haven't played the games or have and clearly have a very basic understanding of what the game does well then it's easy to just enjoy what I enjoy and have a reasonable discussion and critique with level headed people. For this series, there don't seem to be many of them on this website. Oh well.

@jetmet: because its story is obtuse in scope but overly simplistic in execution, its gameplay is clunky and unsatisfying, goals are generally unclear and one will spend lots of time wandering until accidentally stumbling upon a solution or being forced to google one. Its a shameless crossover copout preying on FF or Disney fans while delivering a mediocre JRPG experience. But thats just me.

I don’t hate Kingdom Hearts.

I’d have to give a damn about Kingdom Hearts in order to hate it.

Dream Drop Distance was where the story sort of dropped the ball for me. Many plot revelations, like how the entire series premise has just been one big Batman Gambit to set up the events of the next game feels contrived, and I’m still not sure I get it with the time travel. I also feel it undermined many of the sacrifices, and more ‘heavy moments’ per the series standards, from previous games by basically saying “Don’t worry, Sora will rescue them all in the end”.

I liked some of the spin-offs, I think Birth By Sleep is the most engaging Kingdom Hearts game in terms of combat, character and story even if the worlds themselves were a bit lackluster. I played them, and understood the story pretty compentently. Problem of course is that Nomura leaves out a lot of key plot points and details into secret text files in the various games, and you have to play them all to clue it together.

I understand why the series has gotten its reputation, I gave up on it with 3D as well when it first came out but there is still a novelty to the series’ charm and character that pulls me back in. Enough to actually finish 3D in the afforementioned HD Collection from last year. Still, I get that a large amount of people just don’t have that relationship to the series.

OP: because they hate you specifically and want to make your life miserable for taking a nonsensical sanctioned fanfiction franchise which involves having to play through 12 spinoffs and/or remakes of earlier titles to understand the plot and making it a part of your personal identity, thus ignoring the Kingdom Hearts franchise is like ignoring you. All part of their master plan, or keikaku, for Giant Bomb.

@forteexe21: Persona, but that seems to be something of a special case.

Jason and Jan both sometimes lean more towards Japanese games though. I know Jan had Xenoblade Chronicles on his GotY list.

It is too bad for me, as those are the games that I most connect with. I like all the staff but I rarely share their tastes in games.