Because Mario games aren't interested in telling a story or a character. They're just about fun gameplay.

Mario and Kratos aren't at all comparable.

Having only played some of Chains of Olympus years ago, and only having knowledge built up through osmosis about parts of the God of War story, I'm fine giving him a chance.

@frostyryan: Mario games don’t have a story? Peach made a cake, man! She made it just for Mario!

Except Kratos was literally created to just have some point that drives the gameplay, so they really are comparable. Im pretty sure Mario game's have stories. But oh no wait, Mario is a classic character, can't say nothing bad about Mario...*yawn*

@sasnake: I don’t really think Mario is a character, when you look at how he’s used.

Mario is basically Mickey Mouse. Both are beloved nostalgia acts who get by on being cute and associated with bodies of work better than their character.

They’re indicative of things rather than additive to things. They’re more symbols of what you’re getting into than characters.

Kratos has a backstory, has dialogue used to express his personality in every game, reacts to things happening to him, and has done things where you can see actual consequences.

Mario is a plumber who jumps on turtles. There's not an argument here. @nutter is right with the Mickey Mouse comparison. Mario doesn't contextualize the gameplay. He is just a character model you play as and a symbol.

Kratos may have been a one note character but Mario is a zero note character.

Kratos has always embodied one of those over-simplified male power fantasies which has not been something I've been interested in since I was much younger. I know there's fun to be had there, but the "I'm always an angry asshole regardless of context!!!" was not something I was interested in. I need more from my games, now.

From a mod perspective, he's up there with Master Chief, Geralt, Agent 47 and Deadpool on the list of "characters people disproportionately set as their avatars when they intend to act like bellends on the internet" and that hasn't been particularly endearing either. For some reason a certain type of person seems to be drawn to these aggressive over-powered men (weird, right?) and I now can't help but see those faces as red flags for trouble. So thanks for that, internet.

Having said that, this seems like a interesting direction for the character and I'm willing to give the new God Of War a shot.

I don't know if "zero note" is fair, he's got a friendly and optimistic persona, even if it's not a fully realised personality. To me "zero note" would me something like a Mii - a hollow shell which you can project personality into but doesn't contain any by itself. Mario has always been kinda cheeky and friendly though, which I think puts him on about the same "one note" level as Kratos, just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think the main reason that Mario gets a pass is because Mario's one note is friendly and charming, whereas Kratos' one note is just him being a dick.

To quote Patrick's waypoint review:

A badass with a purpose, tricked into killing his wife and daughter by an all-powerful deity, God of War came at a time when the notion of a “gritty” premise and an anti-hero didn’t draw critical eyerolls; it was new. It helped Kratos felt like a character with meaningful depth and pathos—more than one normally expected from an action game about fighting giant monsters, anyway. As the roman numerals on the games went up, so did the much-applauded spectacle. Bigger monsters, larger fights, and an escalation of violence to go with it. But it increasingly revealed the series—and Kratos himself—as one-noted.

That angst was refreshing back when the original God Of War was released, but God Of War got left behind as the industry moved on to more interesting and nuanced character designs. Personally I'm glad they've finally caught back up.

I dont know if any of those characters are really that aggressive, but I havent seen anyone with those avatars. (except chief, and in that case I dont remember anything bad)

Anyway, i've always found Kratos's absurd amount of rage to be funny rather than cool. But i'm open to the idea of a reflective mature Kratos even if I prefer more fun and over the top action games like Bayonetta and Devil May Cry where the characters are indifferent about everything and are having a good time. My worry when this was announced was that it would be like Ninja Gaiden 3 or Metroid Other M where in their attemps at humanising the protagonist they made them unlikeable but it seems like that isnt the case here.

Moderate a videogame forum for 7 years, then get back to me :P

Never played a God of war game but the impression I got of Kratos from my view on the sideline is pretty poor. It's enough to make me wish they would have just made this a new character. But, hey, maybe they do something great with him given people's expectations. I'm not going to play the game at release, but if I hear enough of a good word about his character I may be more inclined.

Joel from the last of us is, basically, a less over-the-top kratos. The interesting thing with kratos is that we got to experience him at his worst. Joel's checkered past is only implied/hinted at.

Obviously I don't know if the new God of War will turn out as well as the last of us, but it's something to consider.

@mezza: So, I think Kratos kinda sucks, but I think you could do cool things with him. The idea that he runs off the land of Norse mythology, gets a little older, grows a sweet beard, and has someone in his life to care for...maybe he gets some perspective and can be used to deconstruct his own character and backstory. I don’t know if the new game does this as I haven’t really looked into it much. It’s the impression that E3 trailers have left me with, rightly or otherwise.

I legitimately think the much-described Duke game the GB crew often brings up would be cool. The one where everyone except Duke knows he’s a shithead would be funny. Maybe another game out, him coming to this realization and dealing with it would actually be a good story. He’s kinda like Ash Williams in that way... it works for Ash and it could work for Old Man Duke.

Gaming has a long history of shitty protaganists. I think it’s part of the long adolescence of the medium, but also an issue of player agency conflicting with building a proper character. It’s usually the sidekicks, side characters, and antagonists that leave a bigger impression. The have more potential to be fully formed characters. It’s harder to be a fully-formed character AND the player’s source of agency at the same time.

He was never my favorite gaming character, but honestly he's not bad. I am very interested to see if and how he has changed in the new game. Its almost like Kratos is ageing with his audience. Super crazy emotions like a teenager (Rwar Kratos smash!) at the start, and now hes got a kid to look after and has had to try and be more rational for the kids sake.

I get that this is something similar to a redemption story, if not quite the same.

Maybe when on sale? I guess I could get into the gameplay, (especially from what I have heard). I've had no reason to tie to this franchise in the past, but I have actually enjoyed watching QL's of God of War. Over the top, with an always angry, pretty reptilian character. Now they humanize Kratos a bit and send him back out, and that often does work.

Okay.

You'd really have to stretch your mind to reach the conclusion that they're comparable types of characters. I don't get this argument.

Kratos has a backstory. Kratos has reactionary feelings towards things happening in an actual narrative. Mario doesn't have these things.

In short, think about this: Kratos has a reason to be rage filled and angry all the time. What reason does mario have to be cheeky and friendly?

I think Kratos is mentally immature and pretty much driven solely by insane lust for violence, I don't really think that's his fault. He's a crazy person. I wouldn't say he's likable, but I can't say I hate him. The idea of an old reflective Kratos who's had some time to think about what he's done appeals to me.

The recent over analysis of kratos is kinda interesting if a bit jarring, i thought he fit perfectly into the mythology he was based on honestly. Most of those gods and demigods were fucked up, kratos is probably more redeemable than most of them honesty.

My argument is that the personality of Kratos is shallow; The fact that Kratos has a more fleshed out backstory to justify his one-dimensional personality doesn't stop it from being one-dimensional. Mario is shallow too! I'm not saying "Mario is better" I'm saying "they're both bad in terms of character depth" but it's of less consequence in a Mario game because everything/everyone else has been oversimplified to match it - and in that setting I'm not looking for depth to my characters, I just want to run around and jump on stuff. The problem with God Of War games is that they escalated the story and the depth of the characters surrounding Kratos while simultaneously leaving him as one-dimensional as he's always been, which I've always found jarring.

I got my copy early, but it looks like Sony blocks the built in streaming feature until the game is out. Also it is making my PS4 fans go bananas.

@frostyryan: Mario is cheeky and friendly because Peach has him all full of cake.

@sweep: Yeah I don't have a problem with people thinking Kratos is just a bad character until now, that's fair and I'd even partially agree with it, I just don't agree with comparing Mario to ANY bad character to begin with because Mario isn't an attempt at developing a character, he's literally just a cartoon mascot. Kratos is an attempt at a real character and Mario is an attempt at a recognizable household mascot. Different machines entirely. In that regard, of course Mario is "better" because he's accomplishing his goals better than Kratos accomplishes his goals. But Kratos' goals are slightly more complex.

They're just not the same thing, that's my bottom line.

@frostyryan: I see the comparison between the two as an attempt to upend arguments of shallowness being directly proportional to being bad, which is fair. Personally, I don't think a character being shallow makes them inherently bad. Mario can jump around and rescue Peach, old (young) Kratos can run around and murder the Greek pantheon with reckless abandon of the consequences to the world around him, all good.

As far as attempts at character development and, more to the point, goals as fictional devices is concerned, I think that exists narratively for both of them. Just, again, at varying depths relative to what you and I might consider a well fleshed-out character (which is to say neither qualify as well fleshed-out characters (up until the new God of War at least)). And to those ends I think they both hit their mark, assuming Mario's was to be a pleasant hero, and Kratos's was to be an unpleasant mechanism for the catastrophic upheaval of the Greek gods. They both have vague and unsubstantial goals in terms of personality and development, which is a large part of what makes the comparison viable.

But I get what you're saying with how in the Mario games these kinds of narrative considerations (character development, action upon the world) really don't matter one iota, even though they might have elements resembling those of a narrative (call to action, hero, villain, etc.). It's kind of like in order to make the comparison you have to either look at God of War as less narrative-driven than they really are, or look at Mario games as more narrative-driven than they really are.

I do think it's sensible to err on the side of dismissing the shallowness of God of War though (i.e. embracing it). I don't think Kratos was ever an attempt at being a fleshed-out nuanced character, and criticisms that he wasn't that are kinda missing the forest for the trees. That grand forest of fuckin God of War games, good grief. But you follow what I mean. Looking for Doctor Zhivago in God of War is about as silly as looking for God of War in Mario.

What they're doing with the new God of War looks great though, don't get me wrong, and I'm getting closer and closer to actually just picking it up, despite not feeling like getting any new games because Monster Hunter: World is so fucking good (so good). But I don't think it's what the old games should have been, or what they were necessarily missing. Definitely what the franchise needed to breathe new life into it, but we're getting away from the topic. I just wanted to reiterate that I'm into the new direction they went with, and don't want that last paragraph to imply I think the new game's not a real God of War or some crap like that.

Does anyone else remember how Kratos was GameSpot's 'best new character' in 2005? This was also what Alex had to say about Kratos in his review of the game in 2005.

"The initial impression you get from his adventures is that he is, for lack of a better term, a mean-spirited, unlikable son of a bitch who would sooner slaughter his own mother than let anyone get in his way. While some lingering aspects of this perception will last throughout the game, you'll come to learn over time that Kratos is a deeply tortured soul who wants nothing more than to wash away the sins of his past."

And he continued to say that despite his over the top violence, you learn to feel sympathy for the 'flawed but repentant warrior'. I too felt this way when the first game came out, but it went astray.

@ntm: Yeah, GoW 1 Kratos was fine. But GoW 2 Kratos was really one-note, I still love that game though. And with GoW 3 they tried to give him some depth again, but the execution really didn't work for me.

@aktivity: I didn't enjoy God of War 2 until my second playthrough, where it became as good as the first to me. One and two are fantastic to me. He definitely became the guy that just wanted to kill the gods in two, but he didn't seem so reprehensible in two as he did three. Three they just went overboard with Kratos, and everything that surrounded his characterization wasn't good enough to make me enjoy the game otherwise. Three is my least favorite God of War game unless you want to consider the mobile game, which I actually played (but played very little of it). I'm sure they really tried to give him depth in three though unless you consider pure hate depth. Now that I think about it, I remember one of the reasons I didn't enjoy two as much on my first playthrough was because of Kratos.

No still not a protagonist I can get behind

@fraxelgames: Absolutely. Zero interest in him until the trailers for the latest game.

I’ll be late to the party for God of War, but it’s a game I look forward to checking out.