Giant Bombcast 603: Call of Tuesday

jeff's thoughts on "prestige" games might sound harsh, but it's hardly unexpected. when it comes to story-driven experiences with light mechanics- games that emphasize emotional investment over interesting gameplay- jeff has a proven history of opting out of these things. i'd look to someone like vinny to evaluate games like this.

let's not forget the storied discussion of years past when jeff basically said 'all video game stories are bad' relative to other media, and vinny pushed back. it's not that one is "right," they're just looking for different things in the games they play.

@mellotronrules: Yah it's nothing new. I can typically swing both ways in that excellent gameplay can typically keep me around despite a lacking narrative hook (like most recently The Surge) and likewise a great story can pull me along when the gameplay isn't as great - for me a perfect example of this would be the Last of Us. On the other hand Jeff has never really wavered in his very much gameplay oriented preference. It's not a vendetta or Jeff being a cranky old guy, he is just a person that vastly prefers raw mechanics over storytelling. This is most obvious in his love of retro games which are basically all gameplay and in stark contrast is the same reason why I can't really play or watch streams of them for long because purely score based gaming is too boring for me. Different boats for different strokes and all that.

What a weird thing to hear people talk about being over "prestige games" while also praising two new modern military shooters, one of the biggest and most successful genres in games for the past decade.

Don't get me wrong, I think plenty of big games are overhyped. It's just the way this conversation sounded that is weird to me.

Some real bad opinions on goose game, this happens too often with west when they can't figure something out and its kinda ridiculous when its something both simple and intentionally asking you to figure it out like Goose. Maybe just hire someone who can play puzzle games, the lack of variety of tastes and opinions is a real problem at West.

You get his hat off by pulling up the tulip. He bends down to replant. Its literally a hitman setup but ofc they all forgot how to play Hitman again.

Abracadabra is fine.

Also just a heads up: I don't know about Jeff, but that blog post on Medium about prestige games is actually pretty goddamn awful. It is less an article, not even a coherent blog post, and more of a stream of consciousness about why the author likes some games, dislikes other games, and why people are wrong about liking the games he does not like. The most egregious thing I took away from it among the rambling and general take-down of critically acclaimed games and movies - and incidentally something the author has apologized for - is the claim that the only reason some people like stories from highly rated games like the Last of Us is because they aren't literate enough to know better. If you read more and were more intelligent then you would know the story in that game is trite and not worth enjoying.

It's a very long read that has a small kernel of an interesting thought at the center that is surrounded by a lot of bad, and unlike stuff by say..Leigh Alexander, which had similarly weird hot takes, it is not written all that well either.

The Goose Game is just a puzzle game with pretty strict solutions, but because of the deceptively open sandbox nature and weird physics and horrible controls I think the reality of the game is somewhat occluded for some people. It probably doesn't help that people compare it to Hitman, it's nowhere near that level of sandbox or level design. Any freeform solutions to puzzles in the Goose Game are likely the result of physics accidents like what Jeff described with getting on top of the cooler.

Gonna call it right now (this is just a prediction and NOT my opinion of the game since I love it):

Untitled Goose Game will be nominated for most disappointing game of 2019.

Whoever wrote that email about Star Wars: Jedi Academy, I was totally in the same community you were in and can confirm as a clan leader we totally did those member trials! I remember we even had a 3rd party leaderboard for clans to report their games between each other! Not to brag too much but we were #1 on that leaderboard for quite a while! It was also popular around that time to make super cringey websites for your clan and my nerdy teen self created a free one for members with their own bio page with some really tough rap music in the background...

Some of my most cherished memories of online play, what a time.

Actually in that case Vinny was 100% right. Generalising that ALL video game stories are bad in comparison to other media is just plain stupid.

It's okay for different people to like different things in games but it's not okay to criticise unfairly something just because it's not to your taste.

“There’s an advanced mode where you shoot yourself.”

Sign me up.

@humanity: I just skimmed it. My favorite part of it is where the author says he left out two paragraphs that were too self-aggrandizing. The whole thing reads like someone who is anti-elitist, except when it comes to art critique, where they think that only certain people have the ability to critique art.

@bladeofcreation: Yah it is really all over the place and apparently this guy is known for this sort of rambling. I was just caught off guard when Jeff said it's a really good article because it seems like 100% the sort of stuff Jeff would absolutely mock.

@fawkes: Yeah, I think the Hitman comparisons are actually doing Goose Game a disservice. It isn't nearly as open ended. I saw a twitter thread yesterday with someone making the point that Hitman is very open ended. Your primary goal is always to kill someone, there are SO many ways you can go about doing this. Whereas in Goose Game the goal is highly specific and there are maybe one or two solutions, and there isn't a lot of wiggle room.

That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't an open ended sandbox game like Hitman. The levels are more scripted in terms of what solutions are allowed for. I still really like the game though, and the memes are fun to see.

I've never heard of ”prestige games” before and I like to think of myself as being fairly current on modern game lingo. Still don't really have a clue what it's specifically referring to...

@bonelessspirit: High budget single player games you have a good time with and in 6 month claim you never liked.

The Goose Game talk in this episode is baffling. o_0

Ben saying 'rem-a-nant' for remnant reminds me of Super Eyepatch Wolf saying 'fil-lim' for film.

@humanity: I've also read the blog post in question, and there's definitely a nugget of interesting discourse buried somewhere between all the weird rambling potshots at gamers for being uncultured and media illiterate. There's absolutely an interesting conversation to be had about how video games tell stories, their relation to the way films tell stories, or the way companies like Sony and Rockstar position their games as "important". Or the way that the games press (and community at large) rewards and puts those sorts of big budget cinematic games on a pedestal.

I don't care for a lot of games that clearly want to be movies, honestly, but whatever point the dude has is just so muddled in the weirdly self-important and disorganized way he delivers it.

See, I'm not sure about this one. He makes some excellent points; access to behind the scenes information is what creates a lot of the toxic fanbases. To me it seems like that's because it's more content that they're able to obsess over. But that's just what people do- discuss, speculate, and think about the things they enjoy. Taken more broadly, this could be applied to these comments; talking about how they're all 'old men yelling at clouds' (not that anyone's being toxic, just that the comments are people talking about something they think they know about, when obviously none of us are game critics/personalities)

But that's a really bad way to look at 'fans'. We're commenting because we enjoy GB and enjoy talking critically about the media we consume. Jeff putting out a devcast doesn't invite more toxic fandom since he's providing more behind the scenes information- that's just an interesting look at how the site we enjoy gets run.

Are there toxic fans? Of course. Are they obsessed with the product, and access to more information has made them more smug and insufferable? Probably. But that's a bad case for saying 'anyone talking about this in an in depth way is ruining it'.

Wrestling, and Rick and Morty, have toxic fanbases because they cater to a demographic that are far more likely to be assholes than the average media product. It might just be that easy.

Watching Abby play Goose Game it looked like either the controls are tricky because it's a goose, or the Switch controllers aren't great, or Abby just sort of loops too much while moving. It looks sort of irritating, everyone senses that the goose is being naughty even if it's way off screen. I'll play it if it comes to PS4, though, I like small games in between my prestige games.

Giant Bomb... Y'all are crazy, complaining about Sony's first-party output. They, along with Nintendo, I feel, are the ONLY people still making AAA "Video-Ass Video Games."

If it weren't for Sony (and Nintendo) first-party games my interest in video games would have dwindled this generation. With very few exceptions no one else makes big-budget, AAA first-person games, or games that aren't heavily monetized "cash grabs" first, and "video games" a distant second.

It sure as hell isn't EA, Activision / Blizzard, Take2, or Ubisoft, who've either completely gutted, destroyed, or mothballed beloved developers, and or are quite content to sit on any IP they can't spin into a live service or FIFA clone. We aren't going to get another (great) Dead Space, Mass Effect, or Dragon Age.

There's absolutely no shortage of brown and grey military shooters, and there never will be. That is a grossly overserved demographic.

@liquiddragon: So basically just another term for triple-a games?

@bonelessspirit: particularly the ones that review well and receive lots of accolades come GOTY time and then a few month later the games media pretends like they weren't the ones that hyped it up and sold it to ppl.

I don't know who needs to hear this, but: prepare yourself for a GOTY in which Outer Wilds doesn't get its due by virtue of the fact that not enough of the crew ended up playing or finishing it. That's just the way it goes sometimes, and it kinda sounds like this'll be one of those times. Oh well!

I am flabbergasted by the Goose game discussion.

It is not hard. How are they all so bad? Kids play that game. You fuck around and do stuff and experiment.

What the fuck?

@drachmalius:

Its hitman distilled into a puzzle game. Maybe people arent being clear enough about the puzzle game elements but its the analogy everyone is using because its simple and accurate, the puzzles are hitman puzzles. You just don't have a sandbox full of puzzles to choose from, you only have a handful that fit in a small area.

What's the timestamp for the prestige game talk?

@aegon: It starts off about Shawn Layden leaving Sony around 1:10:00 but the part you're looking for starts around 1:12:55.

Really amazed that the entire crew seemingly misunderstood goose game, which had the most straightforward marketing/promotion I've ever seen.

Hopefully GBEast is a little more fair to it at the end of the year.

@humanity: Kudos for finishing that elitist dreck; such a terrible article. I was having flashbacks to all the blowhard, pseudo intellectuals at Uni who were absolutely convinced of their own genius; every one of them were just insufferable, self-aggrandizing pricks.

@protospork: They just have a total lack of imagination.

@knoxt: I'm into most of where they're going with it, but man, the technical shortcomings are really noticeable. Wildlands was rough around the edges and I was hoping that this would be a little more buttoned up.

@nameredacted: What does it say about Jeff that he likes that inane drivel?

@john_wiswell: No joke. I hope Ben was takin' the piss, but... Seriously?! There are so many other "B games" or "mediocre" games available on every platform, mobile, and PC, but he's gotta shit on Sony for not wasting resources on that shit.

Does he shit on Nintendo for not releasing garbage games so we'll appreciate the next iteration of Zelda, Mario, et al.???

Hell, if Sony (or Nintendo) didn't spend the money to make these kinds of games, they simply wouldn't get made. Period. The overwhelming majority of AAA publishing only cares about / throws money at whatever will A) make them the most money for the least investment; B) increase their stock price; and C) increase shareholder ROI / make investors happy.

@dweep: Honestly??? I miss Ryan Davis.

Giant Bomb is still my Ride-or-Die, but the culture and personality of Giant Bomb has certainly changed over the years, for better and worse. I miss Ryan, and Patrick, and Austin, and Drew.

I'm also happy Giant Bomb East exists, whom I tend to vibe more with. I'm happy GBEAST can remain a part of Giant Bomb, but there's a definite split in personalities without everyone being under the same roof. Ryan and Vinny together were always down to clown.

@jeff Breakpoint is actually a sequel to Wildlands, in the sense that your player character is the "same" person and your buddies from the first game make an appearance (SPOILERS FOR THE TUTORIAL MISSION OF BREAKPOINT) including one getting iced at the second downed chopper, and that injured guy in the social space.

My God this "prestige games" discussion is so dumb and awful. And Ben saying Sony should make more mediocre games? Lmaoo

I feel like I complain about the audio a lot and it stays the same but the mixing this week was especially bad. Why is Brad and Jeff so much louder than everyone else? It makes it hard to listen to. Maybe I'm more sensitive to volume than most people though.

Damn those high quality first party Sony games. Damn them.

I also miss the old days of Giant Bomb.

The Goose Game discussion reminds me of several Lego game quick looks (forget which ones) where their consensus is "this is fine for a simple kids games, whatever" then they get completely stuck on a puzzle.

This is what Jeff thinks of your feedback:

@zorak: I don't know, man. Jeff eating less foods than my 2 year old son does bug me quite a bit. He can talk about Call of Duty all day, but when he mentions eating a plain ass chicken sandwich, I get upset.

goose game is simple.

can't believe they are confuse

Boy, people are REALLY misinterpreting that "prestige games" conversation. It was more about all of Sony's first party games being kind of same-y tone-wise and wanting more variety. Maybe make something like a Ratchet & Clank again, not "they should make worse games" geez.

And as someone who's not into basically anything that gets labelled as "prestige" (TV or games) I kind of agree. All the stuff that gets called that tends to not be my thing for a variety of reasons and people acting like they're the only things worth enjoying because of some belief in their "objective" quality gets exhausting.

Does Jason have a history of playing and enjoying the Souls games, or was he on Code Vein for the Anime/God Eater part?

Because Code Vein is far easier than any souls game I've played. Especially since you've got a companion with you at all times. Leveling up is far less intricate, and basically acts as a difficulty slider. You want an easier time? Level up. Also, switch your AI companion to Yakumo, who seems to two hit everything early on.

@benpack Zach Gage did not make Threes.