The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.
You get one ling up his ramp and see a gateway and a cyber core at the front, and a zealot guarding the choke. You try to squeeze an overlord in, but they have 2 stalkers patroling the edges of their base.
Thats called scouting. "
Yeah but that's not nearly enough information to decide if you should expand and drone or if you should prepare for an all in.
And map control doesn't give you any indication of what your opponent has in his base. Map control can tell you immediately when your opponent is moving out, true, but even then it's too late because spine crawlers take so long to build.
You get one ling up his ramp and see a gateway and a cyber core at the front, and a zealot guarding the choke. You try to squeeze an overlord in, but they have 2 stalkers patroling the edges of their base.
Thats called scouting. "
Yeah but that's not nearly enough information to decide if you should expand and drone or if you should prepare for an all in.And map control doesn't give you any indication of what your opponent has in his base. Map control can tell you immediately when your opponent is moving out, true, but even then it's too late because spine crawlers take so long to build. "
All you're doing is quoting IdrA, and usually knowing the persons unit composition and the time at which they have said units will tell you if u can expand or not.
...as brotoss wana know the best way to scout a terran who has walled in? Walk up his ramp and see what greets you, combined with early probe scout to see if he takes his gas quickly.
"All you're doing is quoting IdrA, and usually knowing the persons unit composition and the time at which they have said units will tell you if u can expand or not....as brotoss wana know the best way to scout a terran who has walled in? Walk up his ramp and see what greets you, combined with early probe scout to see if he takes his gas quickly. "
I don't see how quoting IdrA makes my point any less relevant.
And you don't know his army composition, only the 3 units I mentioned. Protoss can easily hold the rest of his forces back in the middle of his base and reinforce if you make a big attack.
And I don't remember when we started talking about PvT, I thought it was ZvP we were discussing here.
" First off, my opinions are based on a collection of observations, I don't have just one retort to the opinion that zerg is weak becasue thats not how I form opinions. Another thing I would like to state is that really how can anyone make any logical claims that one race is inblanced over the other? There has never been a single game of SC2 where the two players have played totally perfectally, and there probally never will be.
Secondly I still don't understand quite why Zerg players feel its impossible to scout? -You have drone scouting (which is how P and T scout) -You have lings (which give you early map control and control of all Xel' naga towers) -You have overlords (which you can literally have flying around the map in the early game) -You have Overseers (that can move pretty quickly, they can stop production and drop spies) -You have creep (a thing that literally spreads across the map removing fog of war and speeds up the movement on your own units)
"
The difficulty in scouting for zerg is because the other races by default will wall off, nullifying ling and worker scouting, leaving only overlord scouting which, if the Terran or Protoss doesn't suck, they can stop before any information is gained by threatening to kill the overlord or killing it before it gets in. Terran and Protoss both have easily accessible techniques of scouting (Scanning, hallucinated Phoenixes), while in the best case, the zerg has to spend money to get either faster overlords or an overseer, making them spend money every time they scout instead of just energy, like Terran and Protoss.
@baldgye said:
I don't see how in low level play where mistakes are common place and usually HUGE why a Zerg player would have a problem scouting out there opponent. This isn't me stating, or at least implying facts this is my oppinion on the state of the game, just like IdrA was expressing his own opinion."
The game shouldn't be balanced around low level play. It should be balanced with the expectation both players are competent, and know what they're doing. The reason Zerg scouting is discussed is because at high level play, Terrans and Protosses will easily deny scouting, causing the zerg to have to guess what the other person is doing instead of reacting, like they are supposed to.
@baldgye said:
oh and @imshl_pl
You get one ling up his ramp and see a gateway and a cyber core at the front, and a zealot guarding the choke. You try to squeeze an overlord in, but they have 2 stalkers patroling the edges of their base.
Thats called scouting. "
That's called completely useless information because every Protoss will have that unless they are either proxygating or cannon rushing. The only information that tells you is that if they don't have something fishy going on. You need to be able to scout deeper into their base for any relevant information as they will not have anything else near the entrance so they can deny you information.
State of the game, is that the show you were listening to? I ask because I thought the thread title refereed to the actual game (starcraft 2) not a show, and you didn't really say it was a show. Just sayin :p
"All you're doing is quoting IdrA, and usually knowing the persons unit composition and the time at which they have said units will tell you if u can expand or not....as brotoss wana know the best way to scout a terran who has walled in? Walk up his ramp and see what greets you, combined with early probe scout to see if he takes his gas quickly. "
I don't see how quoting IdrA makes my point any less relevant.And you don't know his army composition, only the 3 units I mentioned. Protoss can easily hold the rest of his forces back in the middle of his base and reinforce if you make a big attack.And I don't remember when we started talking about PvT, I thought it was ZvP we were discussing here. "
I was using examples, and directally quoting IdrA instead of just going off personal experiance kinda stands out to me that you've not really had alot of problems with it. Wana know why I mentioned PvT? Because its really fucking hard as protoss to scout T early on, ur probe gets killed pretty much as it reaches the T's base becasue of marines (given the bigger S2 map pool), so the only way to scout them is to just be aggressive... I was refrencing it to point out the similar problems in both cases... but in neither case (at our low level) is this down to balancing.
When u send in your overlord it should be at a time when u expect to see a certain unit composition, seeing that will tell u what he is doing, or the tech path he is going too... for example if you send in your OL and only see sentries you know he is fast expanding and wont have any tech for a while because he has spent all his gas on sentries etc etc etc ...unless your playing vs really fucking good people alot then most of the time you can get a pretty decent scout off on his army comp to see what he has.
@Ben_H Yes I know the game shouldn't be balanced at the low levels of play, THE MAJOR POINT IS WE ARE ALL AT THAT LOW LEVEL OF PLAY THUS THE PROBLEMS WITH SCOUTING ARN'T REALLY PROBLEMS WITH THE RACE AND MORE DOWN TO ERRORS ON THE PLAYERS PART.
And how exactally is it useless? Like I said above if you send in your OL you can get a read on the units he is getting out, if he has 2 stalkers really early, thats probally becasue he either late -teched or becasue he is 4gating.
" State of the game, is that the show you were listening to?I ask because I thought the thread title refereed to the actual game (starcraft 2) not a show, and you didn't really say it was a show.Just sayin :p "
Always read the OP before posting in any thread before posting instead of just reading the title is a general rule of thumb in posting in forums. This OP directly refers to the latest episode, the hosts of the show, and what was discussed. That should tell you enough to know that it is about the show.
@Ben_H: The only thing he said was, did anyone listen to the latest episode? He could have said, this is a thread for podcast X, let us try to stay on topic, here is where you ca listen to the podcast weekly etc. What he wrote was hardly a good introduction to what the thread was about, especially since this is a thread that is supposedly last a long time (discussing the latest episode etc).
I am not angry or anything, it just took me a couple of replies and a Google search to figure out what the thread was about :o
"All you're doing is quoting IdrA, and usually knowing the persons unit composition and the time at which they have said units will tell you if u can expand or not....as brotoss wana know the best way to scout a terran who has walled in? Walk up his ramp and see what greets you, combined with early probe scout to see if he takes his gas quickly. "
I don't see how quoting IdrA makes my point any less relevant.And you don't know his army composition, only the 3 units I mentioned. Protoss can easily hold the rest of his forces back in the middle of his base and reinforce if you make a big attack.And I don't remember when we started talking about PvT, I thought it was ZvP we were discussing here. "
I was using examples, and directally quoting IdrA instead of just going off personal experiance kinda stands out to me that you've not really had alot of problems with it.Wana know why I mentioned PvT? Because its really fucking hard as protoss to scout T early on, ur probe gets killed pretty much as it reaches the T's base becasue of marines (given the bigger S2 map pool), so the only way to scout them is to just be aggressive... I was refrencing it to point out the similar problems in both cases... but in neither case (at our low level) is this down to balancing.When u send in your overlord it should be at a time when u expect to see a certain unit composition, seeing that will tell u what he is doing, or the tech path he is going too... for example if you send in your OL and only see sentries you know he is fast expanding and wont have any tech for a while because he has spent all his gas on sentries etc etc etc ...unless your playing vs really fucking good people alot then most of the time you can get a pretty decent scout off on his army comp to see what he has.@Ben_HYes I know the game shouldn't be balanced at the low levels of play, THE MAJOR POINT IS WE ARE ALL AT THAT LOW LEVEL OF PLAY THUS THE PROBLEMS WITH SCOUTING ARN'T REALLY PROBLEMS WITH THE RACE AND MORE DOWN TO ERRORS ON THE PLAYERS PART.And how exactally is it useless? Like I said above if you send in your OL you can get a read on the units he is getting out, if he has 2 stalkers really early, thats probally becasue he either late -teched or becasue he is 4gating. "
It's not hard to scout in PvT at all (at least not as hard as in ZvP), your initial probe can tell you much more than a drone can in ZvP. Also if the terran walls off you can harass his wallin using stalkers and force him to respond, revealing his units and tech; a thing you can't do in ZvP until you have roaches (which is already a very big commitment).
I'm quoting IdrA not because "he's a good player he has to be right herp derp", I'm quoting him because I think he is right in this certain argument. If you want to show me he's not, give me some examples, don't say "you're just quoting IdrA therefore your argument is invalid".
And again: you can't see their tech or army composition because he has a stalker or two patrolling the edges of his base and a zealot in the front. If your opponent is a pro player you will not see enough relevant information with your scouting overlords just because they are too goddamn slow.
Sounds like this podcast hasn't changed from the first 5-10 episodes. Every time artosis or idra are guests it devolves into bitching about balance and becomes just awful to listen to. Professional Starcraft players in general really aren't great at debating. They all think they have the whole game figured out and counter every argument or possible solution to imbalance with, "oh yeah, but then [race] will just do this, and you're dead".
" Seem's logic dsnt work with you, so this is a pointless discussion. "
Oh yeah, that's what I love. I give you examples, try to use logic, show you a clear and simple situation you face, and there you go, the good old 'logic dsn't work on you' argument.
You could've simply admitted your mistake, said something like "ok, I guess you're right", but based on some inner sense of pride and the belief you can't be wrong you decided to end this discussion in the most childish way possible.
" Seem's logic dsnt work with you, so this is a pointless discussion. "
Oh yeah, that's what I love. I give you examples, try to use logic, show you a clear and simple situation you face, and there you go, the good old 'logic dsn't work on you' argument.You could've simply admitted your mistake, said something like "ok, I guess you're right", but based on some inner sense of pride and the belief you can't be wrong you decided to end this discussion in the most childish way possible.Seriously, that was pathetic. "
Are you for real? Get a grip kiddo. I've not made any mistakes, your the one who refuses to accept that other races have similar problems in certain situations, you've gotten you're self stuck into this box where the only possible answer is Zerg sucks at scouting, which might even be right... but its a pointless argument to make unless your a fucking pro sc2 player becasue otherwise there are many ways in which you can scout your enemy without really any trouble.
This is why 'balance' discussions are totally pointless, you've never won/lost a game due to zerg's inability to scout.
The problem is reaction time, and what is needed to react. Mass ling doesn't stop everything. 6 blue flame hellions aren't going to be stopped by lings alone. You need some spines too, and with the long build time you have to have them built before they leave their base. Mass lings aren't going to stop any sort of air attack. We have no way of knowing if the double reactor that was drone scouted means mech or banshee. Same kind of thing against protoss. We can see double gas and low sentry count. Does that mean a VR rush or DT rush. Each would warrant a different response. What if they are doing an MC style 4gate with double gas and a canceled expo? Map control isn't going to help us then, we need to be able to scout, and respond properly.
You can't use the age of the game as proof that the game isn't imbalanced. Proofs and conclusions are made from data, not a lack of data. If anything the young age of the game is an indicator that the game isn't balanced. There are too many different variables that have to be considered and compared on 3 fronts for it to be perfect after such little time. The game will grow and change over time.
Also protoss isn't exactly in the same boat as far as scouting. Protoss is designed to be the agressive timing attack race with the way chrono and warp gates work. Protoss doesn't have the same need to scout because they have the ability to choose the flow of the game, and can respond just about any rush from the other races with the same unit types. If protoss needs to get a good scout in, they can go 2 or 3 gate robo and get an observer to see what everything their opponent is doing. 3 gate robo is also a very good all around build that allows them to defend most all early aggression and gives them plenty of options for the mid/late game. They can then decide to defend, expand, or put on early pressure. Going 14 gas 14 pool and leaving the drones in gas, Zerg can't get OL speed until 8 minutes in. Even then there isn't much of a chance that we will be able to see very much.
Zerg is the defensive race. In order to defend, Zerg needs to have ability to see what they will be defending against. Otherwise it is up to a chance guess.
" Seem's logic dsnt work with you, so this is a pointless discussion. "
Oh yeah, that's what I love. I give you examples, try to use logic, show you a clear and simple situation you face, and there you go, the good old 'logic dsn't work on you' argument.You could've simply admitted your mistake, said something like "ok, I guess you're right", but based on some inner sense of pride and the belief you can't be wrong you decided to end this discussion in the most childish way possible.Seriously, that was pathetic. "
Are you for real? Get a grip kiddo. I've not made any mistakes, your the one who refuses to accept that other races have similar problems in certain situations, you've gotten you're self stuck into this box where the only possible answer is Zerg sucks at scouting, which might even be right... but its a pointless argument to make unless your a fucking pro sc2 player becasue otherwise there are many ways in which you can scout your enemy without really any trouble.This is why 'balance' discussions are totally pointless, you've never won/lost a game due to zerg's inability to scout. "
Yes P and T do have similar situations where that happens. The differance is it happens to Zerg almost every game. Along with the fact Zerg is played completely differant to P and T makes it harder for Zerg. Since Zerg generally invest in mass units that can deal with certain combinations we need to know what's coming. Roachs can get completely hard countered early. Same with lings. Also knowing when we need detection, anti air and when to drone after knowing all that is hard because of limited early scouting. Also this is meant to be games that involve Zerg. Saying it's hard to scout in PvT doesn't make us feel better when it is harder for us to scout than Protoss in PvZ. We also don't have build orders that are strong against every opening because of the simple fact we don't have a reliable anti air unit that comes out as early as stalkers sentrys or marines.
Also I've lost fucking tons of games because I can't scout. I'm still playing at level where mistakes happen a lot. But I would say where I'm at now Protoss and Terran make it very difficult to scout, and do annoying stuff throw you off what they're doing.
"Are you for real? Get a grip kiddo. I've not made any mistakes, your the one who refuses to accept that other races have similar problems in certain situations, you've gotten you're self stuck into this box where the only possible answer is Zerg sucks at scouting, which might even be right...
I didn't "refuse that other races have similar problems in certain situations". I don't know why you're under a delusion I said so. I only said that you can get more info with your first probe scout in PvT than you can with your first drone scout in ZvP. Stop claiming I said things I didn't say.
but its a pointless argument to make unless your a fucking pro sc2 player becasue otherwise there are many ways in which you can scout your enemy without really any trouble.
You're saying that my argument is pointless because... I'm not a pro SC II player? So... if all I said was listed under a different nickname... my argument would be somehow more valid? Your "logic" certainly doesn't seem logical. If you're trying to argue against something, use your own arguments; saying "omg you're not a pro so shaddup" isn't an argument.
And in the situation I've shown you we assume that both players know what they're doing, hence why the overlords can't get into your base. I wanted to show you that no matter how good decision the Zerg can make, he just doesn't have the option to get into his opponent's base.
This is why 'balance' discussions are totally pointless, you've never won/lost a game due to zerg's inability to scout. "
I haven't. But other people certainly have.
Even if these types of discussions seem pointless to you, that doesn't mean they are pointless to everyone else.
" Seem's logic dsnt work with you, so this is a pointless discussion. "
Oh yeah, that's what I love. I give you examples, try to use logic, show you a clear and simple situation you face, and there you go, the good old 'logic dsn't work on you' argument.You could've simply admitted your mistake, said something like "ok, I guess you're right", but based on some inner sense of pride and the belief you can't be wrong you decided to end this discussion in the most childish way possible.Seriously, that was pathetic. "
Are you for real? Get a grip kiddo. I've not made any mistakes, your the one who refuses to accept that other races have similar problems in certain situations, you've gotten you're self stuck into this box where the only possible answer is Zerg sucks at scouting, which might even be right... but its a pointless argument to make unless your a fucking pro sc2 player becasue otherwise there are many ways in which you can scout your enemy without really any trouble.This is why 'balance' discussions are totally pointless, you've never won/lost a game due to zerg's inability to scout. "
Have you ever played Zerg? If you have you'll know what everyone here is talking about. I have lost games due to inability to scout. Poking up the ramp only gets you so far. Running a slow overlord into their base is a gamble that seldom pays off, especially against Terran.
Protoss can use observers and hallucinate, Terran can use scans, Zerg has no such tech that gives them safe scouting early on, only after they get Lair, which is already too late in many cases.
" Seem's logic dsnt work with you, so this is a pointless discussion. "
Oh yeah, that's what I love. I give you examples, try to use logic, show you a clear and simple situation you face, and there you go, the good old 'logic dsn't work on you' argument.You could've simply admitted your mistake, said something like "ok, I guess you're right", but based on some inner sense of pride and the belief you can't be wrong you decided to end this discussion in the most childish way possible.Seriously, that was pathetic. "
Are you for real? Get a grip kiddo. I've not made any mistakes, your the one who refuses to accept that other races have similar problems in certain situations, you've gotten you're self stuck into this box where the only possible answer is Zerg sucks at scouting, which might even be right... but its a pointless argument to make unless your a fucking pro sc2 player becasue otherwise there are many ways in which you can scout your enemy without really any trouble.This is why 'balance' discussions are totally pointless, you've never won/lost a game due to zerg's inability to scout. "
Have you ever played Zerg? If you have you'll know what everyone here is talking about. I have lost games due to inability to scout. Poking up the ramp only gets you so far. Running a slow overlord into their base is a gamble that seldom pays off, especially against Terran.
Protoss can use observers and hallucinate, Terran can use scans, Zerg has no such tech that gives them safe scouting early on, only after they get Lair, which is already too late in many cases.
"
I hate it when people bring up Robo and hallucinate for early scouting. HATE. Robo is tier 2, just like liar. If Protoss can get it earlier, then Zerg can get an early lair. In fact, Zerg could get it even earlier, because protoss need more gas to be able to even survive against zerg, so we can't spend the gas as early to drop the robo.
The only race in SC2 that has free easy scouting is terran. And honestly, you want terran to use scans. The standard PvZ build, 3 gate expand, the robo isn't even made until after we put down the nexus.
@Cataphract1014: Zerg getting an early lair is a huge hit to the economy. Getting a fast robo doesn't hurt your economy the same way as long as you can defend your ramp. Getting a super fast lair would force drones into gas for a while, have to build an early pool, and skip getting a queen. Can you honestly say that protoss getting a fast robo is as negatively impacted to the same degree as the zerg who rushed lair for OL speed? Your observer is permanently cloked and gets a good look around, not a big moaning balloon waiting to be popped.
Even in the event that scouting is really hard and risky for protoss, you are still the aggressive timing attack race with great turtling abilities. A lack of scouting early rushes is not nearly as clutch for Protoss as it is for Zerg, who is the defensive race.
" Seem's logic dsnt work with you, so this is a pointless discussion. "
Oh yeah, that's what I love. I give you examples, try to use logic, show you a clear and simple situation you face, and there you go, the good old 'logic dsn't work on you' argument.You could've simply admitted your mistake, said something like "ok, I guess you're right", but based on some inner sense of pride and the belief you can't be wrong you decided to end this discussion in the most childish way possible.Seriously, that was pathetic. "
Are you for real? Get a grip kiddo. I've not made any mistakes, your the one who refuses to accept that other races have similar problems in certain situations, you've gotten you're self stuck into this box where the only possible answer is Zerg sucks at scouting, which might even be right... but its a pointless argument to make unless your a fucking pro sc2 player becasue otherwise there are many ways in which you can scout your enemy without really any trouble.This is why 'balance' discussions are totally pointless, you've never won/lost a game due to zerg's inability to scout. "
Have you ever played Zerg? If you have you'll know what everyone here is talking about. I have lost games due to inability to scout. Poking up the ramp only gets you so far. Running a slow overlord into their base is a gamble that seldom pays off, especially against Terran.
Protoss can use observers and hallucinate, Terran can use scans, Zerg has no such tech that gives them safe scouting early on, only after they get Lair, which is already too late in many cases.
"
I hate it when people bring up Robo and hallucinate for early scouting. HATE. Robo is tier 2, just like liar. If Protoss can get it earlier, then Zerg can get an early lair. In fact, Zerg could get it even earlier, because protoss need more gas to be able to even survive against zerg, so we can't spend the gas as early to drop the robo.The only race in SC2 that has free easy scouting is terran. And honestly, you want terran to use scans. The standard PvZ build, 3 gate expand, the robo isn't even made until after we put down the nexus. "
A robo is a production building though. If getting lair gave us extra larva it would be fair comparison.
The point is Zerg can't hide tech that force differant and as drastic reactions as T or P can to Zerg.
If each races scouting was exactly the same but there was a large chance that you won't be able to scout, it puts Zerg in a much worse position than Terran or Protoss. Terran or Protoss don't need to massively change their build order based on what Zerg is doing. It's more about adjustments. It's pretty much the reason Zerg don't have build orders that aren't just rushes, or very very few compared to T and P.
Which is why, in my opinion. If Z T and P have completely equal scouting early game it's unfair. Zerg shouldn't have perfect scouting, but I think they should have slightly better options than P or T that doesn't sacrafice as much as it is now.
I'm disappointed to see this usually chill forum have a silly argument resorting to personal attacks (not all posts here, just some). Let's stick to facts about the game and keep the peace, guys.
" @Cataphract1014: Zerg getting an early lair is a huge hit to the economy. Getting a fast robo doesn't hurt your economy the same way as long as you can defend your ramp. Getting a super fast lair would force drones into gas for a while, have to build an early pool, and skip getting a queen. Can you honestly say that protoss getting a fast robo is as negatively impacted to the same degree as the zerg who rushed lair for OL speed? Your observer is permanently cloked and gets a good look around, not a big moaning balloon waiting to be popped.Even in the event that scouting is really hard and risky for protoss, you are still the aggressive timing attack race with great turtling abilities. A lack of scouting early rushes is not nearly as clutch for Protoss as it is for Zerg, who is the defensive race. "
Force drones into gas? Pardon me if I feel no pain for FORCING you to get gas. Protoss HAVE to get double gas at 18-20 food. The horror of having to mine an extra 100 gas to get liar and another 100 to get an overseer. Jeez, what was I thinking...? That 200 gas is 2 sentry. We need like 8 to be able to survive any sort of early aggression. A robo is 200 minerals/100 gas. An observer is 25 minerals/75 gas. Hallucinate is 100 minerals/100 gas. All that gas could be sentries, or stalkers we need to kill a roach push.
@Cataphract1014: Protoss has to get gas early because that is the way they are designed. Zerg is designed to be mineral heavy early on. Zergs even take drones off gas immediately after getting the 100 needed for ling speed. Zerg needs to get lots of minerals for drones, hatches, lings, and queens. Having the drones in gas and not getting minerals really hurts Zerg's ability to macro, build an economy, and defend an early push.
" @Ben_H: The only thing he said was, did anyone listen to the latest episode?He could have said, this is a thread for podcast X, let us try to stay on topic, here is where you ca listen to the podcast weekly etc.What he wrote was hardly a good introduction to what the thread was about, especially since this is a thread that is supposedly last a long time (discussing the latest episode etc).I am not angry or anything, it just took me a couple of replies and a Google search to figure out what the thread was about :o "
I suppose I could have gone into extensive detail but I think 99% of the SC2 players who read the title knew what I was referring to. SotG is a very well known podcast to anyone who's into the community at all.
" @Cataphract1014: Protoss has to get gas early because that is the way they are designed. Zerg is designed to be mineral heavy early on. Zergs even take drones off gas immediately after getting the 100 needed for ling speed. Zerg needs to get lots of minerals for drones, hatches, lings, and queens. Having the drones in gas and not getting minerals really hurts Zerg's ability to macro, build an economy, and defend an early push. Different races function differently. "
How are zerg anymore mineral heavy than Protoss?
All protoss units cost more in terms of gas and minerals. I really have no idea, I don't play zerg or the game at all anymore really, but perhaps the set in stone "MUST GET FAST EXPO AND MUST NOT GET MORE THAN 100 GAS" isn't the right way to play. I don't know, and frankly don't care.
" @Cataphract1014: Protoss has to get gas early because that is the way they are designed. Zerg is designed to be mineral heavy early on. "
How are zerg anymore mineral heavy than Protoss? "
you don't have to spend 150 minerals on an extra unit from your nexus just to be able to chrono boost
I have to spend 125/50 to kill a unit that is 75/25. A 75/25 unit that my 125/50 unit can't beat in a straight fight. "
not to mention your 125/50 unit can also hit air, has longer range, and is faster (off creep, even after the roach speed upgrade). you can also create that 125/50 unit while also creating probes nonstop, while a zerg has to choose between a drone or that 75/25 unit.
they also need to use those drones to make all of their buildings, while you send one probe over, drop a buliding down, and hustle back to mining. you can't talk zerg unit costs at all without bringing up larva costs, especially early game, which is what the discussion was about as far as i could tell.
i'm not interested in dragging this argument out, i'm just saying, it's easy to play the victim when you don't take everything into consideration.
I kinda agree with Cataphract here: I don't like when people bring up robo and hallucination and say toss have too many options scouting. They both are a commitment after all.
However I do still think Zerg has it more difficult in terms of scouting: since Zerg is the one to expand first most of the time you can kinda see what you're dealing with just by poking at the front of their base.
I also feel that this discussion is pretty much gonna go "but Zerg can do this; but Protoss has colossi; but mutas are too good" etc. I'm fine with it, however, as long as we manage to stay calm.
" I kinda agree with Cataphract here: I don't like when people bring up robo and hallucination and say toss have too many options scouting. They both are a commitment after all.However I do still think Zerg has it more difficult in terms of scouting: since Zerg is the one to expand first most of the time you can kinda see what you're dealing with just by poking at the front of their base.I also feel that this discussion is pretty much gonna go "but Zerg can do this; but Protoss has colossi; but mutas are too good" etc. I'm fine with it, however, as long as we manage to stay calm. "
i disagree that they are any more of a commitment than zerg needs to scout. especially the way cataphract is presenting it, he's saying he can't scout early as protoss or he can't defend an early push, and then suggesting that the zerg CAN scout early as well as defend the same hypothetical early push, which is not true. with either race if you're rushing scout tech, your army and economy will suffer.
ignoring all other units and mechanics, and leaving out the cost of a nexus and gateway/hatchery and spawning pool, zerg needs 100 minerals for an overlord, a lair for 150 minerals and 100 gas. then to scout the zerg needs to spend, on top of the lair tech 100 minerals and 100 gas on overlord speed or 50 minerals and 100 gas on turning an overlord into an overseer, the protoss needs a robo for 200 minerals and 100 gas and an observer for 25 minerals and 75 gas. or skipping the robo and going with hallucinate 150 minerals for a cybercore, and 100 minerals and 100 gas for hallucinate, plus 50 minerals and 100 gas for a sentry to hallucinate with.
from that, you can see it's 200 gas to go overlord with speed or overseer, 175 gas for a robo and observer, and 200 gas for a sentry with hallucinate, though sentries have uses beyond just scouting, we'll assume the hallucinate uses all their energy and they can't ff or guardian shield after that, and the protoss won't make any more than one sentry, so we'll just assume that's all even in gas with the robo slightly cheaper. mineral wise it's 350 minerals for an overlord with speed (lair, speed, overlord) and 300 minerals to make an overseer (lair, overlord, overseer), and the protoss needs 225 minerals to go observer (robo, observer), and 300 minerals to hallucinate (cybercore, hallucinate, sentry).
quick version: speed overlord - 350 minerals, 200 gas overseer - 300 minerals, 200 gas observer - 225 minerals, 175 gas hallucinate - 300 minerals, 200 gas
so that covers minerals and gas, and you can see the protoss gets out cheaper with the observer than anything the zerg can do, and hallucinate is a bigger commitment because it brings them even with getting an overseer. but minerals and gas are not the only costs associated with this scout. what does a protoss lose when the scout gets there, and is killed? he loses a 25 mineral and 75 gas observer, or a fake hallucinated unit for 100 sentry energy. the zerg loses at least a changeling for 50 overseer energy, the 100 mineral overlord, maybe a 150 mineral and 100 gas overseer, and in the latter 2 events, 8 supply. so not only does the path to get the scouting unit cost slightly more, and the scouting unit itself cost more, but they can also lose supply, that is a huge cost that the protoss is never in any danger of paying just to scout.
if neither side loses anything scouting, the zerg has still paid just as much if not more just to get that info as early as possible. i'm not going to make any assumptions about how each player reacts or builds from there and the usefulness of what the tech they got to scout also affords them afterwards or how it's affected their economy. it's too much to get into in an already long post, but honestly, i think the protoss is more flexible than they would like to think they are after rushing to scouting tech. zerg will have a lair up, but still needs to spend minerals/gas and drones on all the buildings to actually produce the units it would afford, as well as the costs of the units themselves.
maybe, as he said to the other zerg player, the "standard pvz" build isn't how you're "supposed" to play pvz
edit: and to quote my last post about it being easy to play the victim when you don't take everything into consideration, i also didn't factor build times into any costs, so there you go :)
The speed is comparable, although a lot of circumstances push players to get an immortal first, delaying the observer by 55s. Protoss doesn't have a lot of problems with this though, because you usually get some intel out of a stalker poke a few minutes in.
I feel like this is an issue that zerg should be mindful of, but not one that really makes them weaker. Remember that to cut off your scouting, your opponent has to give you map control. And, the hatch mechanic means zerg can react to things more fluidly out of the early game. If you make early game scouting trivial for them (like putting overlord speed before lair), zerg will go into the midgame at an advantage like 100% of the time.
As for IdrA's point about having to guess, I can't really disagree, but I feel like it is not that big of a deal. Really, any strategy that you choose is a calculated risk. In any game without an optimal strategy, you're pretty much never not guessing.
" And, the hatch mechanic means zerg can react to things more fluidly out of the early game. If you make early game scouting trivial for them (like putting overlord speed before lair), zerg will go into the midgame at an advantage like 100% of the time. "
absolutely, it makes sense they have to work for that info. i don't know the exact quote but i think tyler said it best about how the other races are taking risks for their advantages and idra just wants the advantage without the risk.
I just played a game as random(Got protoss) vs a T.
I scouted him last. Walled off before I could get it. I poked up the ramp with my probe saw a barrack. Minute later I poked up with my probe again, saw a barrack with a tech lab. Poked up again with the same probe. 2 barracks, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor.
I read "stim timing". I was right and had the sentries to stop it ^_^
My original plan was to go 2gate robo expand. WHen I first saw the tech lab, I dropped 2 gateways instead.
" I just played a game as random(Got protoss) vs a T.I scouted him last. Walled off before I could get it. I poked up the ramp with my probe saw a barrack. Minute later I poked up with my probe again, saw a barrack with a tech lab. Poked up again with the same probe. 2 barracks, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor.I read "stim timing". I was right and had the sentries to stop it ^_^My original plan was to go 2gate robo expand. WHen I first saw the tech lab, I dropped 2 gateways instead. "
This actually is the perfect way to do it imho and as Protoss most of the time it's all you need to be safe against most of the stuff (except for some really crazy all-ins nobody has ever seen before).
@Cataphract1014: What would you have done if he placed 2nd barracks on the other side of his base? TBH, seems you got lucky to me, the only time I can scout the same way as you and get any good info, if the terran player has all his units by the ramp, however, I do not know which tech he is going :p
" I just played a game as random(Got protoss) vs a T.I scouted him last. Walled off before I could get it. I poked up the ramp with my probe saw a barrack. Minute later I poked up with my probe again, saw a barrack with a tech lab. Poked up again with the same probe. 2 barracks, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor.I read "stim timing". I was right and had the sentries to stop it ^_^My original plan was to go 2gate robo expand. WHen I first saw the tech lab, I dropped 2 gateways instead. "
That was kind of lucky to be honest, as most good Terrans will keep at least a few marines at their ramp to deny poking, which is smart because it both denies scouting and tells you exactly nothing about unit composition. From that info he could have also 2 rax expanded with his command center built in the back of his base and a tiny amount of marine/marauder pressure masked as an incoming 3rax, which would have put you at a disadvantage as you would have been behind economically because of building more gateways instead of an expo. What has worked for me PvT currently is to go gate-robo-gate and get an insanely fast observer and then adapt (Which Artosis teaches about on his stream and has won me every PvT I've played in the last few weeks, barring one marine/scv all-in that I autoleft).
" I just played a game as random(Got protoss) vs a T.I scouted him last. Walled off before I could get it. I poked up the ramp with my probe saw a barrack. Minute later I poked up with my probe again, saw a barrack with a tech lab. Poked up again with the same probe. 2 barracks, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor.I read "stim timing". I was right and had the sentries to stop it ^_^My original plan was to go 2gate robo expand. WHen I first saw the tech lab, I dropped 2 gateways instead. "
That was kind of lucky to be honest, as most good Terrans will keep at least a few marines at their ramp to deny poking, which is smart because it both denies scouting and tells you exactly nothing about unit composition. From that info he could have also 2 rax expanded with his command center built in the back of his base and a tiny amount of marine/marauder pressure masked as an incoming 3rax, which would have put you at a disadvantage as you would have been behind economically because of building more gateways instead of an expo. What has worked for me PvT currently is to go gate-robo-gate and get an insanely fast observer and then adapt (Which Artosis teaches about on his stream and has won me every PvT I've played in the last few weeks, barring one marine/scv all-in that I autoleft). "
What are the different buildings/unit composition timings which indicate what a Terran is about to do? I'm pretty good at poking at the terran's front and I can often determine what unit composition (how many marines, marauders, if he has conc shell) he has but it's hard for me to tell what exactly I am going to encounter.
No gas early propably means some aggression, yeah, and I can pretty much tell what the Terran has, but I often have trouble with reading exactly what means what. You also mentioned that 2 rax with reactor and tech lab indicate an early push(pretty logical), but I'd love to know the indicators a little more thoroughly. So far my PvT has been "alright, I'm guess I'm gonna do that"; I have a general idea of what I wanna do but my timings are usually off. I'm in plat so I can somehow win but would love to improve.
" I just played a game as random(Got protoss) vs a T.I scouted him last. Walled off before I could get it. I poked up the ramp with my probe saw a barrack. Minute later I poked up with my probe again, saw a barrack with a tech lab. Poked up again with the same probe. 2 barracks, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor.I read "stim timing". I was right and had the sentries to stop it ^_^My original plan was to go 2gate robo expand. WHen I first saw the tech lab, I dropped 2 gateways instead. "
That was kind of lucky to be honest, as most good Terrans will keep at least a few marines at their ramp to deny poking, which is smart because it both denies scouting and tells you exactly nothing about unit composition. From that info he could have also 2 rax expanded with his command center built in the back of his base and a tiny amount of marine/marauder pressure masked as an incoming 3rax, which would have put you at a disadvantage as you would have been behind economically because of building more gateways instead of an expo. What has worked for me PvT currently is to go gate-robo-gate and get an insanely fast observer and then adapt (Which Artosis teaches about on his stream and has won me every PvT I've played in the last few weeks, barring one marine/scv all-in that I autoleft). "
What are the different buildings/unit composition timings which indicate what a Terran is about to do? I'm pretty good at poking at the terran's front and I can often determine what unit composition (how many marines, marauders, if he has conc shell) he has but it's hard for me to tell what exactly I am going to encounter.No gas early propably means some aggression, yeah, and I can pretty much tell what the Terran has, but I often have trouble with reading exactly what means what. You also mentioned that 2 rax with reactor and tech lab indicate an early push(pretty logical), but I'd love to know the indicators a little more thoroughly. So far my PvT has been "alright, I'm guess I'm gonna do that"; I have a general idea of what I wanna do but my timings are usually off. I'm in plat so I can somehow win but would love to improve.Thanks for the advice <3 "
For PvT at our level, a lot of Terrans who don't suck (IE: are NOT the crazy all-inners that are increasingly common) seem to do a 2rax expand (usually without a reactor but sometimes with one but later) and it is common to at the same time do a little bit of pressure with a few marines and a couple of marauders (When I do this it is to gauge what the Protoss is doing, and it reveals their early compositions). I can't really give advice on probe scouting past when the robo is done because I rush for observer. No gas usually means 1rax expand (like MKP, this is my standard for Terran on my random account and it works insanely well) or crazy aggression. If you see marauders, it's usually safe to bet they aren't going to be teching to cloaked banshees early on because they used gas on marauders and a tech lab (and likely concussive shell) instead of banshees. If you only see marines at the ramp or a bunker with marines in it, then it is important to get obs as fast as you can, because they typically (again at our level, high plat/middle diamond) are going to be teching to either hellions or banshees, and you need to know which to prepare for.
Again, try out going for an insanely fast robo (right after warpgate starts before any more gates, so far it has worked out about the same on the new patch, though you get a sentry much faster after the robo is building because of the new sentry build time, after getting the standard zealot and stalker) and get 2 observers as fast as possible, one to scout, the other for home. Unless the terran is really bad/paranoid they won't have the means to deal with the observer will not want to scan to get it, which gives you everything you need to know what they are doing. By paranoid I mean they are worried about DTs or they try to take out your obs because shenanigans are going on and they are likely to do some crazy all-in/tech play. By bad I mean they're wasting their money on turrets or they have a raven because they're going to all in you as many Terrans often do.
I stole that early obs build from Artosis (It's more of an opener, as you adapt from what you see. I usually double forge unless they are 3raxing me, in that case I DT rush them with a warp prism while using forcefields to delay their bio at my ramp, another thing I took from Artosis). When he streams his ladder games he explains everything he is doing, and how it will beat his opponent, or what his scouting is telling him and how to react. Since starting watching it I've improved a ton. You should check it out.
This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:
Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along
with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely
increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.
Comment and Save
Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other
Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll
send you an email once approved.
Log in to comment