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Eight Women, Eight Responses, and One Dead Island Riptide Statue

A collection of reactions to last week's questionable marketing tactic from a variety of women in the video game industry.

No Caption Provided

Deep Silver likely did not anticipate the intense reaction to its UK-specific Zombie Bait bundle for Dead Island Riptide when it was announced last week. The news came alongside other bundles for the sequel, but the Zombie Bait bundle received attention for a statue of a torn apart woman that featured nothing more than her bikini-wearing torso.

Deep Silver’s issued a questionable apology in response to the furor. The company did not discuss how this bundle even came into existence, and still hasn’t said whether it will be sold or not. One would hope not? I’ve asked the company for further clarification on that point, but as of publication, nothing has come back.

Here's the company's previous statement in full:

“We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.

For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.

We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.”
No Caption Provided

The story featured my own opinion on the subject, as do most pieces of content on Giant Bomb. You might have suspected part of my response, based on previous articles I’ve filed at the site, and the reaction was along the lines of the last conversation about #1reasonwhy. When I was mulling a follow-up, I didn’t want to have the same back-and-forth, and hoped to introduce some new voices.

So, I reached out to a number of women members of the video game community, and asked them to provide their individual reactions. There are voices from everywhere in games, from development to fellow writers. I didn't specifically seek out people who had expressed an opinion about Dead Island, I just figured they had one. Some chose to speak directly to what happened, some didn't. There weren't any rules.

I’m also going to start something new here. I won't guarantee it’ll happen every time, but for big features, I want to make sure there’s a dedicated time slot for spending time responding to comments. It won’t happen until the story has been up for a little while, and people have had a chance to digest it. In this case, it’s going to be for 30 minutes at 11:30 a.m. PST. As always, anything I don’t get to can be addressed in PM, on Twitter, or through my Tumblr site.

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Rhianna Pratchett, writer (Tomb Raider, Mirror’s Edge)

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I’m both a horror fan, and a Dead Island fan. But my initial reaction to Riptide’s mutilated torso was one of shock, bewilderment and confusion. I wasn’t morally outraged. It was more a deep sigh and eye roll of “Oh come on… really? REALLY?” Yes, horror and sex have been intertwined forever, but there was something about the visual depiction of this one that was unexpectedly disgusting for a number of reasons. A mutilated corpse (of either sex) is pretty disturbing, sure. A sexed-up (and there no other way to describe the perfectly round, barely covered up and non-zombified knockers) female corpse, offered up as a reward, has particularly nasty connotations. Especially when combined with the fact that it’s described as 'bait'--a confusing title for what was apparently meant to be (according to the developers) a zombie’s torso, rather than the mutilated and cut up human torso that it actually looked like. Zombies are not normally known for the penchant to chew down on the flesh of other zombies.

I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!" It’s a mistake to ignore the legions of female gamers out there, who enjoy their zombie killing just as much as the guys. It’s an even bigger mistake to outright annoy them. Believe me, I know this. I’ve got first-hand experience of being caught-up with a video games "controversy" on Tomb Raider, and so I know that marketing and the way we speak about and depict our characters and games is important. Industry and player debate about how we go about this is also valuable.

I was glad to see Deep Silver apologising for this rather large misstep, although I was a little perplexed by the fact that they seemed to use the fact that players apparently do this in the game (or at least have the option to) as some kind of get-out-of-jail card. I’ve done some horrendous things in games. I don’t particularly want to see them immortalised in statue form.

There’s been a lot of talk about whether it would have been okay if it was a male statue. But the fact that it isn’t (and we can only really talk about what we’ve been presented with, not what we haven’t) combined with the way the torso’s been depicted, strongly suggests that the marketeers would never have done that. A sexed-up male torso (and even with a six-pack it’s not quite the same) wouldn’t have appealed to the intended audience (straight men) in the same way. If they’d wanted to keep up this mutilated torso theme then a male torso and female torso, leaning against each other in zombie-baiting harmony, would’ve been a better way to go about it. And, given that the first game had a 50/50 male to female ratio of player characters and a similar ratio in the AI, rather more in keeping with the general tone of the game.

Better still, something like AMC’s Walking Dead collector’s edition head would have been more appropriate and arguably less offensive.

Follow more of Rhianna's work at www.rhiannapratchett.com and on Twitter.

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Clarice Meadows, writer and former sales operation manager at Take-Two Interactive

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When marketing departments come up with various tchotchkes to get people to buy a video game, there are a lot of factors that come into it. Theme, desirability, originality, and more. It's a matter of making something unusual and interesting enough, and yet appropriately themed for the game, that fans will absolutely HAVE to buy it. I like to think that there are focus groups involved in the choice of object, or at the very least more than just a bunch of marketing types being locked in a room for days fueled by caffeine and junk food until they come up with an idea and are let out. Sadly, I am pretty sure the latter is usually the case. The zombie torso created specifically for Dead Island Riptide was, in my opinion, a marketing catastrophe. I've heard many responses to this particular item. From "well women don't play games anyway" to "by getting mad about it and yelling, you guys are giving this company free advertising" to "it's like a classical sculpture of antiquity, but a zombie!" So let's break this down a bit.

1) I am a woman, and I play video games. I am not particularly unusual in my gender group in choosing to play video games. I grew up in the 80s, video games were around, and I liked them. I also happen to know quite a few other women who play games, including games like Dead Island. By ignoring women as a market demographic for a video game, companies are losing out hugely. By assuming women will only buy pink, glittery items or games that are about clothing and boyfriends, these companies are losing money. By putting out a completely sexist and crass marketing ploy, they are losing money. Seriously, isn't the point of triple-A games to make scads of cash? I really don't get making choices that lead to losing it instead, can you tell?

2) By yelling about something offensive, we're making a case that offensive marketing is unacceptable. By not yelling, we're giving silent consent to continuing crappy and cheap marketing choices. And trust me, this is crappy, cheap AND lazy marketing. Oh look, a pair of boobs! How innovative! Apparently these marketers think the only people playing video games are under-sexed pubescent mole men. I mean… seriously? Lazy.

3) The last time I checked, classical sculptures did not have boob jobs. Also, the last time I checked, real boobs did not do that while in a string bikini. There's this thing called gravity… And if we're going to have an argument that this torso is not overly sexed up and has turned a live woman (or live lady zombie) into a bunch of sex organs, then… well… someone is lying to themselves. Is it appropriate? Is necrophilia really acceptable now? Because that's what this feels like it's promoting to me.

Lazy and cheap marketing ploys don't make money, they cost money in PR nightmares and hours of dancing around apologizing. It doesn't take much to be smarter, and who knows? Maybe a new market full of lots of money will open up and be willing to spend that money on video games! I mean, didn't you hear that women have jobs and make money and LOVE to spend it? Think big video game companies. Think about all that cash you're letting slide right through your fingers, and play it smarter.

Follow more of Clarice's work at Plays Like a Girl and on Twitter.

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Kate Lorimer, composer and writer

No Caption Provided

For my part, yes, I found it offensive, it was “the straw that broke the camel’s back” (though I am sure it won't be the last such incident) after a year of dodgy marketing (Hitman, Booth Babes, Tomb Raider, Girlfriend Mode, Anita Sarkeesian). And from a personal viewpoint, even a close friend expressing his being fed up with online “outrage” and “Feminist point-scoring pandering” from game websites like Rock Paper Shotgun--his words--and his complete (and somewhat deliberate) misunderstanding of the concept of Feminism (being supposedly more about pursuing Women’s interests above male's, as opposed to actually being about equality for both genders).

Unfortunately, amongst teens and younger players in general (but as Jenny Haniver has shown, far from exclusively) there’s likely to be a kneejerk reaction backlash at the outrage and offence caused by it, as kids love a bit of blood'n'gore, and certainly amongst the heterosexual hormone fueled boys that whole “cor... boobies” thing has an attraction. See: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153593/yes-ah-tah

The reasons for it being offensive are obvious to the clear of thought--it's objectification at its worst. Remove the person from the body, inexplicably leaving a pubescent boy’s idea of the perfect female figure, with balloon boobs (mysteriously untouched by hungry zombie snacking) and a peek at a panty enclosed crotch--of course, hiding the vagina within--which would likely be too offensive/edgy to the same boys!

Would the situation have been mitigated had there been an alternative option of a male torso? It might have slightly balanced the equality issue, though of course there is a special obsession with boobies--especially globe-tastic ones on an itty bitty waist! But the fact that it's just a female torso they decided to go with speaks volumes about their marketing, and the usual narrow-minded targeted demographic. It might have been just as grisly but slightly more in line with the zombie ethos to have had a scary looking zombie head?

Follow more of Kate's work at K8-bit and on Twitter.

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Elizabeth DeLoria, staff writer at Gameranx and cosplay photographer

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In September last year, Jill Meagher, a 29-year-old ABC employee, went missing while walking the short walk home from a popular Melbourne street. Thanks to a somewhat viral social media campaign, the entire country began to follow the case, people everywhere wanting Jill to be found alive and well and brought home.

When she was found murdered, buried in a shallow roadside grave after being kidnapped and sexually assaulted by a complete stranger, the entire country went from hopefully to angry. Angry that someone would do this, angry that she wasn't alive and well as we'd hoped, angry that she was minding her own business in her own suburb when she was attacked. People were so angry that when the alleged killer's name leaked, social media erupted with people from every walk of life wanting his head. An entire nation was in mourning, and thousands in Melbourne marched in her honor.

I mention this because we know it's not okay to kill people. We're angered and heartbroken when women are violently murdered (and that's just the cases we hear about.) The news of Jill Meagher, as an example, was devastating to thousands that didn't even know her. Yet at the same time, we're sent these messages that sexualize, glamorize and exploit a woman's decapitated torso. That use violent murder for the purpose of sex appeal and thus profit.

When I see the same people who I saw march for Jill, whose heart sank when they heard the news of her death ask me why this torso statue is "such a big deal," I don't even know how to begin to explain to them how they've come so close to the right thing, yet they sit so far from it.

I'm not really offended, I'm just mortified at how easily we seem to forget.

Follow more of Elizabeth's work at Gameranx and on Twitter.

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Vanessa Hunter, artist and game design graduate

No Caption Provided

We need to start at the beginning if we are to stop the pervasiveness of sexism in gaming culture, and by sticking this statue in a set that will be received by kids and young adults, Deep Silver is reinforcing an already warped attitude toward women held by the gaming community.

If this statue had been reminiscent of Venus de Milo or the statue of David, and posed in a beautiful, creative way, perhaps I could have even admired it. But as a hunk of flesh plopped into a lifeless pose and trussed up in a string bikini, I seriously have to question the thought behind it.

My main reaction to this statue, however, is that it presents a woman as a literal piece of dead meat. It beheads all personality and life and strips away individuality to present the viewer with what is simply a hunk of flesh in a gaudy bikini. This figure gets up and screams "all I am worth is to fulfill your pleasures"

To a woman like me, it's sickening because it represents how some men see real-life women every day.

From someone who has seen firsthand how a monster who holds this attitude can choke the life out of someone beautiful and radiant, this bust is a nightmare come true. And what's worse is that the attitudes behind such an object reinforce this behaviour as okay.

As for Deep Silver's "apology" placing the blame on its fan base, many of whom view them as a role model, teaching them that sexism is okay if someone else has done it before is unacceptable. They need to grow up.

Follow more of Vanesssa's work through Instagram and on Twitter.

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Anonymous

I didn't feel offended by the Dead Island bikini statue. I did, however, find it quite tiresome. I don't think that it can be denied that the statue is an obvious example of sexual objectification--a mutilated torso with perfectly untouched breasts.

Sexual objectification of women is everywhere, and it's impact is a massive discussion that goes way beyond video games. What I found most tiresome about the statue wasn't the objectification but that making a statue such as this suggests a number of things that Deep Silver assumes about their audience. They assume that the audience are young shallow men whose main interests are tits and violence. It's insulting to men and its a common assumption in video game marketing. Women are not even considered as part of the possible audience. It's outdated thinking.

I've been playing video games since I was a kid, and it's probably the main thing I do for entertainment. I have as many female friends as male who play video games. It is tiresome to be constantly excluded--and if I am included then I am considered a novelty. Women who play games are a sizable chunk of the audience and have been around for as long as video games. Objects like this statue show that we are not really considered to exist.

This individual chose not to share their personal information for fear of potential backlash.

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Melissa Cooke, writer for FemmeGamer

No Caption Provided

Personally, I think that it's rather disgusting that Deep Silver decided to sell this. The usage of a female chest and abdomen I assume was originally used as a shock tactic to grab the eyes of the media, obviously this has worked, but what made it sexist in my eyes was the way it was dressed up and the proportions on the body.

The breasts are very unrealistic in the way they're being held up by a string bikini, not to mention that there are no wounds on the breasts, making them all the more obvious.The stomach is also very flat, and the bust looks almost anorexic, which is a very damaging image to promote.

The bust lacks also a face or any other feature that makes this bust look human, which could be interpreted as Deep Silver saying "Look this isn't a human, it's a woman, look how her breasts are positioned for your enjoyment, isn't that cool?"

Overall, this is a rather shameless grab for attention on Deep Silver's part, and all this sort of stunt does is give the non-gaming public the idea that games and the people who are playing them are immature, and push any progress the industry has made back a few more years.

Follow Melissa's work at Femme Gamer and on Twitter.

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Anna Kipnis, senior gameplay programmer at Double Fine Productions

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It's really hard to approach this topic in any kind of novel way. At this point, it's hard to bring round people who have made their minds up that feminism threatens to ruin their entertainment; to convince them that it's troubling to have games openly revel in dismembering decomposing women in bikinis. Yet I don't believe in censorship, either. Personally, I push this sort of thing into the same category in my brain as boob mugs (which I respect more for at least cutting to the chase and showing actual nudity). I'm not sure why someone would want a headless, bloody, dismembered corpse of a woman's upper torso, with grotesquely fake boobs obscured by a sadly implicated union jack proudly displayed on their mantle, but they're not a person I can imagine seeing eye-to-eye with on many things.

I honestly believe you can have sexiness and violence in games, even at the same time, if that's what you want. I can't think of a great example of a game that has done this particularly well (no doubt there is one), but there are many examples in film. For instance, Quentin Tarantino has made plenty of movies over the years that feature sexy women in violent situations. Even women getting dismembered (Kill Bill Volume 1, Death Proof), and yet it's never felt sexist or misogynist to me. I walk away from the theater generally thinking of those women as role models, not victims.

I think it's on us, game developers, to prevent controversies like this one. I'm a game programmer and I would be pretty bummed if I was working on what was essentially a game equivalent of a boob mug. You're appealing to the lowest, most vulgar aspects of your audience at a time when games are widely criticized for being juvenile, senseless, and immature, only to then complain that the medium is not being taken seriously as an art form. We should strive to treat our medium with the respect it deserves.

Follow Anna's work at Double Fine Productions and on Twitter.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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Mister_V

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@Nictel said:

@Mister_V said:

@Sweep: Im beginning to wonder if there is some kind of British/American split on this issue. Maybe us in the UK have a more mature view of sexism than our american cousins.

Games banned in the US:

- The Guy Game (Porn)

- GTA coffee edition (sex minigame)

Games banned in the UK:

- Carmaggedon (Violence)

- Manhunt 2 (Violence)

- The Punisher (Violence)

I see a line here... If you go into censorship and ratings (where games in the US are rated higher for sexual content than in the UK) it becomes even more obvious. US = scared of naked ladies, UK = scared of violent killers.

(

Huh, thats interesting.

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AMyggen

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@BlastProcessing said:

Can we get another member of the Bomb Crew, who's preferably a voice of reason, and not an obnoxious libtard to write an article about "sexist" matters for once? Maybe if someone like Alex took a crack at it, people wouldn't be so up in arms.

Actually, I just want someone competent to tackle this.

"Libtard"? Didn't know I had clicked on Fox News' website here. Seriously, "libtard", it's strange to see such a silly term being used on GB. Should I just go ahead and call you a Tea Bagger now or something?

PS: All the members of GB seem to be very, very liberal. So you probably won't find any "voice of reason".@Bartz said:

"EXCLUSIVE SCOOP: Women didn't like the ripped up female torso statue!"

Investigative journalism at its finest.

Judging by the reactions, yeah, a lot of people didn't/don't understand that point of view.@ZHabermann said:

"The story featured my own opinion on the subject, as do most pieces of content on Giant Bomb."

Yeah, hey dude I thought you were a News Editor not a Opinion Editor, for someone who's been in the business as long as they have, you would know you don't put opinion in news pieces, unless you're into tabloid trash which if that's the case more power to you I guess.

You know just assumed Giant Bomb was better then E!...

This site has always taken a more opinion heavy approach to how it writes its news, and for feature articles like this, it's completely normal to not just report, but also add opinion. And that doesn't just go for "tabloid trash", it goes for publications like The Economist, Time Magazine, The New York Times etc. I'm just saying that it isn't just Daily Mail which has its writers "put opinion in news pieces".

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EnduranceFun

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@bugmeyer said:

Up until this point, I had really believed that all the anti-feminist sentiment was the result of a vocal minority. It's disheartening to see so many comments trying to shout down this discussion. It really crushes my faith in humanity.

Opinions aside, it's just shocking to see how early and often people are willing to stand up and fight against discussing how women are portrayed in games. Now, even the Giant Bomb crowd seems to revolt at the very mention of this topic.

I'm fucking shocked. Who are these people?

Eh, repeated articles about anything would get repetitive. Can't blame users for getting tired of it.

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anarchyzombie9

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@whatisdelicious said:

You guys, following the logic behind the article, I'm going to declare that since I'm a man and I have a penis, I can speak for all men on all issues of sexism involving a man as the subject. I'll start by answering a couple burning questions, but feel free to AMA.

"Kratos doesn't wear a shirt. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me

Thanks for the question, Me. I think I can speak for all men out there when I say this: the objectification of Kratos is disgusting. His little skirt thingy is not adequate protection from all the minotaurs and shit he comes up against, and frankly, the way he's being used as an obvious sex symbol offends me.

"Nathan Drake is pretty hot. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me Again

Great question, Me Again. Of course it is. Why does Drake have to be talented, funny, athletic, and attractive? It puts unfair pressure on regular-ass guys who aren't talented, funny, athletic, or attractive.

"I bought a statue of Batman with Arkham City and Batman's abs are built into his suit. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Still Me

I gotta tell you, Still Me, I'm pretty offended that you would buy something like that. I mean, Bruce Wayne is a man who stands for justice, and here you are with a sexy statue of him, objectifying his mega-hot bod. How is that just? You disgust me.

And there you go. Balanced perspective.

Men's bodies aren't objectified and commodified by society you forgot that part bucko.

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reisz

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Unfortunate.

Candid opinion pieces from (if we're honest) the only people who have a meaningful view point in this discussion and it hasn't effected the general response at all. One of the things I love about this site is the sincerity with which the crew approach what they have to say, I look forward to the day that the same can be said for the community surrounding Giantbomb as well.

Say what you want about him as a journalist but at least pay attention to the fact that is the only one of us who had the wherewithal to go "Well I think this is pretty damn stupid but I wonder what the people most affected by it have to say?"

If we're going to have this discussion this is the best way to go about it. Thanks Patrick and thanks to everyone who chimed in with their opinions for this article.

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Awcko

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@Phatmac: And how!

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kingyo

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@Ekpyroticuniverse: Haha thanks!

The internet gets scary sometimes....

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Tidel

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@Brodehouse said:

@Tidel said:

@Stymie said:

I totally agree this statue was lame (but I wouldn't use the word "offensive"; you kind of have to be above things like this). However, I really, truly wish we could have these conversations without the constant tones of "the industry obviously only treats women like this."

How many men do any GB readers know with the super muscular, broad shoulder, 0% body fat, perfect-chizzled-chin look that virtually every male video game character has? Video games are suffering no shortage of manwhores.

The difference is, while the male form is often idealized, it is rarely objectified. It's an important distinction. When male characters are presented as solely a function of desire instead of active participants with agency, then you'd have a similar scenario. But that doesn't happen; and even if it did, it doesn't justify anything. The idea that 'men have it just as bad' doesn't excuse the fact that sexual objectification -- of anyone -- is problematic.

This statue represents the most base scenario of the objectification of women -- it's just a pair of clean, pert tits framed by the gory removal of all possible agency. It doesn't represent the entirety of women in games or gaming, but it exemplifies the persistent inequality in how gender and sex is represented, and to who, and why.

Just because you (or I) are not the 'idealized' man, that doesn't mean the idealized man is reductive of us or reflective of us; it represents a power fantasy. This statue also represents a power fantasy. That's the whole problem.

I think it's worth talking about. I think it's sad and telling that so many duders come out of the woodwork to 'be offended at your offense' and feel embattled.

No one should feel threatened by this discussion. Criticizing a tits-out statue is not defaming men, manliness or threatening any man's right to like tits. It's problematizing the persistent idea that women are frequently reduced to functions of the sexual gratification of men.

You are exchanging the gender roles of men with women and then drawing conclusions on how they are different.

Men are not objectified by their bodies, for the most part. They are objectified by their production, in a way that women are not. The 'idealized' man is not the body of Nathan Drake or Marcus Fenix; it is their production, their violence and their agency over others. They represent a 'power fantasy' as much as Barbie represents a 'power fantasy' for girls. But despite that, we constantly wring our hands over what Barbie 'says to young girls' but we never really consider what the expression of men as hyperagents does for them. Because it actually does represent the condition of men in society; you are your agency. Without it, you are nothing.

As I've said earlier, the statue is lacking in expressive detail enough to make any actual statements about women (or men). In the same vein that it "doesn't represent the entirety of women in games" it also doesn't represent the entirety of women on Earth. It is white, it is young, it is fit. The only way to hold the claim that the statue makes a gender statement is to also rely on the statue making a racial statement.

No one is threatened by the discussion, in fact, the people who are arguing against it are outright joining in it. The problem appears when the discussion is one-sided, and one side resorts to logical fallacies and the rhetoric that offense is more important than reason.

So you're saying that one cannot equate the objectification of men to that of women because of how men are objectified (on action/production/capability); they are not two alike things, despite both being objectification? That you can't talk about the objectification of men in the same terms (sex/bodies) as the objectification of women because they are objectified for different reasons?

I can get behind that (if that's what you're saying -- if not, please clarify). But then why does the 'hand-wringing' over Barbie mean anything about the lack of hand-wringing over GI Joe? That we should be concerned about what Billy is learning from Joe, but aren't, doesn't negate that we should be concerned about what Sally is learning from Barbie.

As for the statue, the breasts are the expressive detail, aren't they? Just because the statue doesn't account for all women, does that mean it doesn't implicate all women, through a detail that is wholly female?

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AlecOfTheWest

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Didn't even realize there was a new Dead Island game (or DLC?) coming out until this whole debacle started up, so I guess as far as marketing goes the statue worked pretty well.

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@dvorak said:

Virtually anyone who visits this site probably thinks that's the dumbest fucking thing ever put out as promo material. Are you trying to impart some kind of lesson to someone? Deliver it to the completely fucked up marketing and PR team who let it exist. Who is this written for? All these articles you write are completely incongruous with the tone of the rest of the website, and serve no other purpose than to drive clicks from confused idiots who disagree with your common sense opinions for some reason. Go write this stuff freelance for Kotaku or something. This kind of click bait is not what GiantBomb is about.

If you read this comment section, obviously there's a loud minority who has no problem with this promo material. Like, at all.

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Undeadpool

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I really can't WAIT until the idea of even SUGGESTING bias within the industry (on ANY level, not just gender) is no longer met with hundreds of comments that won't even entertain the mere NOTION that this industry we all love might have a few flaws. That is when real discussion begins.

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@anarchyzombie9 said:

time to kick back and watch a bunch of misogynist neckbeards try and defend their exclusion, objectification, and overall mistreatment of women. stay classy, guys.

Actually, a recent survey of misogynists found that over 66% were clean-shaven.

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@Kingyo: The point here is that she is outraged at this but not the games she actively worked on. Why is there no article from her where she expresses her disgust over that the cover for the game she wrote on is basically only a pair of boobs?

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spookytapes

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Edited By spookytapes

What a depressing goddamn thread.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@anarchyzombie9 said:

@whatisdelicious said:

You guys, following the logic behind the article, I'm going to declare that since I'm a man and I have a penis, I can speak for all men on all issues of sexism involving a man as the subject. I'll start by answering a couple burning questions, but feel free to AMA.

"Kratos doesn't wear a shirt. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me

Thanks for the question, Me. I think I can speak for all men out there when I say this: the objectification of Kratos is disgusting. His little skirt thingy is not adequate protection from all the minotaurs and shit he comes up against, and frankly, the way he's being used as an obvious sex symbol offends me.

"Nathan Drake is pretty hot. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me Again

Great question, Me Again. Of course it is. Why does Drake have to be talented, funny, athletic, and attractive? It puts unfair pressure on regular-ass guys who aren't talented, funny, athletic, or attractive.

"I bought a statue of Batman with Arkham City and Batman's abs are built into his suit. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Still Me

I gotta tell you, Still Me, I'm pretty offended that you would buy something like that. I mean, Bruce Wayne is a man who stands for justice, and here you are with a sexy statue of him, objectifying his mega-hot bod. How is that just? You disgust me.

And there you go. Balanced perspective.

Men's bodies aren't objectified and commodified by society you forgot that part bucko.

You have missed the point. His point was that the idea that women automatically have greater insights on what does and does not constitute sexism is as logically spurious as the idea that men automatically do. An argument is as valid as its evidence. In this case, the inclusion of 'these are women so they have a better idea' is a complete fallacy.

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deactivated-6022efe9ba3cf

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@wrecks: BOOBS!

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kingyo

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Edited By kingyo

@EnduranceFun: The point is not to be objective, he is giving his slant, people come here for his take on the news.... If you don't like that's fine, don't get your gaming news here. Although side note that this article could have been put up by anyone and it would still have the same content those 8 women's opinions don't change just because this is a Patrick article.

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TheFreepie

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Edited By TheFreepie

In the quote they don't even say if I still get my zombie torso!

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daycru

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Edited By daycru

Here's my take on this whole thing. They included a tacky bloody fantasy woman torso collectible with a murder simulator centered around zombie dismemberment. It's appropriate for the product. I don't see how the game can be fine but a toy is crossing some kind of moral line.

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flasaltine

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Edited By flasaltine

I was going to comment on the content in the article but after reading the comments I have to come to the same conclusion: fuck this opinionated click-bait bullshit.

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Synthballs

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Edited By Synthballs

@Skeezard said:

Patrick is the Britta of the GiantBomb crew

Oh wow. He totally is.

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kingyo

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Edited By kingyo

@Phatmac: I actually think that is the biggest take-away message from all this!

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gesi1223

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Edited By gesi1223

I think getting testaments from both men and women who think this statue is totally dumb would have been a much better idea. Patrick would have at least made himself look a little better. But maybe he just doesn't care that much about what his audience thinks of him.

Edit: I felt like the anonymous person's post was the best one when I think of being levelheaded about this entire issue, with Anna being close second. However being anonymous for the fear of backlash just makes me go "now i don't really wanna take you seriously", which is a shame. Being afraid of what people think of you for your opinions feels like taking a step in the opposite direction when you want to have a say in something you supposedly care about.

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MrMazz

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Edited By MrMazz

Man fuck the haters Patrick is the best thing to happen to GiantBomb sense video. It's so funny to see people react in disgust at "opinion" when everyone openly admits this site is built on the opinions and personalities of its staff.

Good Job Patrick.

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christilton

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Edited By christilton

C'mon guys, even if you want to criticize PK's choice of interviewees, perhaps we could request other opinions that we all may be interested in, instead of yelling that he didn't ask who you wanted him to ask. Personally, I wouldn't mind some comments from some males in the industry, and perhaps some of the target demographic in the UK. But, there's nothing wrong with getting the opinions of females in the industry, especially considering the form of the statue presented here.

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Pie

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Edited By Pie

Game looks kinda crap by the way.

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goreyfantod

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Edited By goreyfantod

To those commenting that this article is unbalanced because all of the people included by Patrick are female, I would note only this:

  • Of all the posted Giant Bomb staff members, exactly one is listed as female & app. twelve have no gender specified (leading me to suspect that some of them are women, but without any real way of knowing).
  • Giant Bomb has zero on-camera female staff members.
  • Giant Bomb has zero female reviewers.
  • Giant Bomb has one female moderator.

http://www.giantbomb.com/users/staff/

This leads me to wonder whether those accusing Patrick of posting an unbalanced article would agree with the proposition that Giant Bomb is an inherently unbalanced organization with regard to gender. If not, why is it acceptable to exclude women from GB's editorial output on an ongoing basis, but not acceptable to exclude men from one article about an example of perceived sexism in game merchandising?

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saddlebrown

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Edited By saddlebrown

@Thompson820 said:

Who said you're not allowed to disagree with them? Please point out where in the article that was stated. Seriously, please quote it to me.

That's why it's all women. It's all women, and it's all women who think the statue is sexist. One of the women even invoke Jill Meagher's name. It's a debate strategy. You appeal to people's emotional side so they look like an asshole for disagreeing. Women presenting the argument that the statue is offensive appear to come from a position of authority on the issue.

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Langly

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Edited By Langly

@EnduranceFun said:

@Fin said:

I really hate how Patrick jumps on any fucking bandwagon that gives him an opportunity to be seen as some sort of White-Knight roaming about tackling the problems of the industry.

That's a big problem for me too. Whenever an issue pops up that has anything to do with women, Patrick makes an article or two focusing entirely on sexism as if it's the only important aspect of the story. It's because he injects his opinion willingly into his writing and I wish he'd try to be truly objective.

He does it because it's one of the single greatest toxic elements of the gaming industry. It's something that needs to be pointed out, again and again. Because if it isn't nothing will change.

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EnduranceFun

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Edited By EnduranceFun

@AMyggen: And this matters because...?

I really don't get it, do you think you will change their opinion, or force them to submit to your views by being ridiculed? It's a minority and it's silly to pretend that their existence is reinforcing points in the article.

Same problem with the [very] few who said the comments reinforce the need for these articles. We are never going to be living in a Utopia where no one makes offensive or stupid comments, if you think that you're stamping them out, you're going to be stamping for a long time.

@Langly: The important of this issue is very subjective and it is perfectly fair to disagree.

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qlanth

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Edited By qlanth

@bugmeyer said:

Up until this point, I had really believed that all the anti-feminist sentiment was the result of a vocal minority. It's disheartening to see so many comments trying to shout down this discussion. It really crushes my faith in humanity.

Opinions aside, it's just shocking to see how early and often people are willing to stand up and fight against discussing how women are portrayed in games. Now, even the Giant Bomb crowd seems to revolt at the very mention of this topic.

I'm fucking shocked. Who are these people?

You come to expect better of giant bomb fans because giant bomb is so much better than the average video game editorial outlet. The dudes running this site are smarter and in general come at this kind of thing with a lot more tact and class than anyone else does.

Unfortunately, the internet is still the internet and even giantbomb isn't immune to the hordes of anonymous angry assholes. It depresses me every time I look at a comment section on here and it's nigh indistinguishable from any other outlet on the internet.

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Pop

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Edited By Pop

When I think of Dead Island, I think about good combat, nice setting and the boobs on zombies. Each and every one of the female zombies had impressive bosoms and every time I saw them I didn't know if I wanted to vomit or get a boner. I think they did this as like a "hey guys, remember the boobs on zombies in Dead Island?"

I don't really know who would buy this, how would you display this? "oh and there's my decapitated zombie boob torso and moving along there's my collection of japanese love pillows". Maybe those guys with the hentai collections would buy it.

I really loved reading the opinion of the women in the video game community, don't think it was necessary to have it cause I think this is more about video game marketing but I get it.

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Darji

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Edited By Darji

@Brodehouse said:

@anarchyzombie9 said:

@whatisdelicious said:

You guys, following the logic behind the article, I'm going to declare that since I'm a man and I have a penis, I can speak for all men on all issues of sexism involving a man as the subject. I'll start by answering a couple burning questions, but feel free to AMA.

"Kratos doesn't wear a shirt. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me

Thanks for the question, Me. I think I can speak for all men out there when I say this: the objectification of Kratos is disgusting. His little skirt thingy is not adequate protection from all the minotaurs and shit he comes up against, and frankly, the way he's being used as an obvious sex symbol offends me.

"Nathan Drake is pretty hot. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me Again

Great question, Me Again. Of course it is. Why does Drake have to be talented, funny, athletic, and attractive? It puts unfair pressure on regular-ass guys who aren't talented, funny, athletic, or attractive.

"I bought a statue of Batman with Arkham City and Batman's abs are built into his suit. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Still Me

I gotta tell you, Still Me, I'm pretty offended that you would buy something like that. I mean, Bruce Wayne is a man who stands for justice, and here you are with a sexy statue of him, objectifying his mega-hot bod. How is that just? You disgust me.

And there you go. Balanced perspective.

Men's bodies aren't objectified and commodified by society you forgot that part bucko.

You have missed the point. His point was that the idea that women automatically have greater insights on what does and does not constitute sexism is as logically spurious as the idea that men automatically do. An argument is as valid as its evidence. In this case, the inclusion of 'these are women so they have a better idea' is a complete fallacy.

I feel offended by that. I have feelings and insight too. I was bullied in school because back than I was really small for a guy. I know when and how people can easily get offended. And yes even from woman.

The problems exist on both sides and both sides are aware of this problem as well. The thing is that sexcism regarding men is not a way to get clicks or viewers.

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project343

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Edited By project343

Gotta love all those personal attacks. Keep up the 'not being a jerk' effort, Giantbombers. :\

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SeroTyler

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The worst part about this is that people are paying attention to the sequel to fucking Dead Island.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@EternalGamer2 said:

Do you dudes READ and THINK about what you are writing before you post: "ll this liberal "let's just all get along" bullshit needs to stop soon." "More progressive bullshit" "Listen, I am all for women's rights..." "You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina." Holy fuckballs at this thread.there are dozens and dozens of comments like these. Are you trying to be parodies of yourselves? It's depressing.

You have failed to make any sort of logical point, you have merely expressed your offense.

@Kingyo said:

Also since when were women not allowed to show cleavage, or wear what they want? I guess I missed a lot of memos...

You are undermining your own argument, in that this topic started due to an accusation of sexism based on the appearance of a fictional woman. In such a scenario, we're to assume that the physical appearance of women is now something is open to criticism. You cannot rationally have it both ways.

@bugmeyer said:

Up until this point, I had really believed that all the anti-feminist sentiment was the result of a vocal minority. It's disheartening to see so many comments trying to shout down this discussion. It really crushes my faith in humanity.

Opinions aside, it's just shocking to see how early and often people are willing to stand up and fight against discussing how women are portrayed in games. Now, even the Giant Bomb crowd seems to revolt at the very mention of this topic.

I'm fucking shocked. Who are these people?

It is impossible to 'shout down' a discussion. In fact, it is impossible to have a 'discussion' if there is no side that disagrees. What you are describing is an echo chamber.

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saddlebrown

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Edited By saddlebrown

@anarchyzombie9 said:

Men's bodies aren't objectified and commodified by society you forgot that part bucko.

It's like you've never even talked to a woman about Ryan Gosling. It's like he's Photoshopped.

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BrianP

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Edited By BrianP

How does one get through life without the ability to not read things they know they aren't interested in? If they pick up a newspaper are they compelled to sit there and read until they finish the entire thing? Don't they have other things to do? In the words of seinfeld "Who are these people?"

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Edited By bassguy

Patrick, this is great. I really appreciate you getting so many opinions from women in the industry. My $0.02: The promotion was pretty weird and creepy. Marketing people at Deep Silver should have had the good sense to shut this idea down as soon as it was proposed.

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TehChich

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Edited By TehChich

Good lord, these comments have worn me out. I'm going to go take a nap, duders.

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fallen_rock2

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Edited By fallen_rock2

Giant Kotaku

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Emils_katt

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Edited By Emils_katt

Great article Patrick. Video games is an ever-increasing part of our culture and should be criticised and discussed like any other medium. I was actually in the process of cancelling my subscription to your site, but if you keep doing articles like these I will gladly go along for the ride. For too long video games has been a safehaven for sexism and hatred and it's about time we stop this nonsense. Happy to see giantbomb trying to do it's part.

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fallen_rock2

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Edited By fallen_rock2

And why is the news section almost devoid of current video game news but has tons of bullshit like this?

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SniperXan

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Edited By SniperXan

@goreyfantod said:

To those commenting that this article is unbalanced because all of the people included by Patrick are female, I would note only this:

  • Of all the posted Giant Bomb staff members, exactly one is listed as female & app. twelve have no gender specified (leading me to suspect that some of them are women, but without any real way of knowing).
  • Giant Bomb has zero on-camera female staff members.
  • Giant Bomb has zero female reviewers.

http://www.giantbomb.com/users/staff/

This leads me to wonder whether those accusing Patrick of posting an unbalanced article would agree with the proposition that Giant Bomb is an inherently unbalanced organization with regard to gender. If not, why is it acceptable to exclude women from GB's editorial output on an ongoing basis, but not acceptable to exclude men from one article about an example of perceived sexism in game merchandising?

^ OMG THIS! Thank-you! (love finding people that can voice things much better then I can lol)

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hollitz

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Edited By hollitz

@Zornack said:

Huh, thought I clicked a giantbomb link. How'd I end up on Kotaku?

Not a single opinion that it's simply a stupid statue no one gives a fuck about, just eight paragraphs about how hateful, sexist and misogynistic the video game industry is.

Quality journalism.

I don't think it's journalists place to be apologizing for companies. You might not give a fuck about it, but unless you're a woman, it kinda doesn't matter. If people are upset about it, being dismissive is just giving it a pass. By holding companies' feet to the fire over things like this, we're working toward creating a more inclusive culture where this kind of alienating shit isn't tolerated. That's a culture that I'd be proud to be a part of.

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iceman228433

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Edited By iceman228433

Yea dude Patrick I'm not sure what the point of this was, I mean duh it was stupid of Deep Silver and who gives a shit. Seems like you just wasted many of people's time, so they could all give the same answer.

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deactivated-5e4c09d3ba1b3

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I agree with . Even as a super-liberal person, I don't want a person's political or sociological ideals just blatantly scattered about their articles. Especially on a website about video games that is supposed to not take itself so seriously. The problem I had with the last article wasn't the discussion of the stupid torso, but the statement that "THIS IS SEXIST." Well, some people may not think that. Stop making your opinion the opinion of the entire site and its users.

And from skimming the thread, great on mods to insult people and then tell them to watch what they say. Classy. This is why I stay away from the forums.

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Edited By Dallas_Raines

Anonymous asked:

"how do you feel about the, frankly, insane outpouring of misogyny from the giant bomb community in the comments section in patrick's new article?"

Our audience skews sort of young, so it’s sort of tragic to see, but you have to hope that some people will eventually grow out of attitudes like that.

I certainly had a lot of dumb ideas about how the world should work when I was a kid, and understand the desire to lash out at perceived threats that look like they might shake up the things I love. Match that with the relative anonymity of the internet and a young man’s desire to be shocking and/or destructive and you get what we’ve got.

I used to just post the vilest shit possible to BBSes. Eventually a few groups of us banded together and launched our own boards where no one could tell us what to say and do. It just became this echo chamber of stupidity that was sort of fun at the time and provided a tight, closed environment for it. At some point you either get it out of your system or you don’t, I guess?

http://jeffgerstmann.tumblr.com/post/41374469684/how-do-you-feel-about-the-frankly-insane-outpouring

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Edited By rramo010

@Abendlaender said:

@IncredibleMeltingMan:

I'm not sure if this was actually supposed to be a "burn" cause well, the majority of this article was written by women, right?

Also, it's a bit....weird reading this from the writer of Tomb Raider.....

It was a legit comment, but damn it is tough to be sincere on the internet.

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saddlebrown

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Edited By saddlebrown

@Darji said:

The problems exist on both sides and both sides are aware of this problem as well. The thing is that sexcism regarding men is not a way to get clicks or viewers.

See, and that's sexist. People perpetuating the idea that women are somehow above objectification are repressing female sexuality. If you don't think that women can be so easily swayed, then why did Ryan Gosling take off his shirt in the trailer for Crazy Stupid Love?