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Team Bondi Lead Rebuts Attacks Against the Company

Lead gameplay programmer Dave Heironymous pens an open letter to the IGDA telling Team Bondi management's side of the story.

"I know, I know. I'll be labelled as 'Brendan McNamara's sock puppet' or worse," begins Dave Heironymous' post on GamaSutra today, "You'll just have to take my word that I'm doing this because I enjoy working at Team Bondi and don't want to see it destroyed by anonymous ex-employees."

Team Bondi's Dave Heironymous says the story of the studio's work practices has been a one-sided argument thus far.
Team Bondi's Dave Heironymous says the story of the studio's work practices has been a one-sided argument thus far.

Heironymous is one of Team Bondi's original employees, having joined the company straight out of University as a junior programmer, and eventually worked his way up to a position of team management. He spent the last four years working as L.A. Noire's lead gameplay programmer, and self-identifies as one of the "management goon squad" referred to by the ex-employees of the studio who have decried the working conditions at the studio in recent weeks. Heironymous had much to say on the subject of Team Bondi's working practices, and his own experiences with the alleged crunch hours that have drawn so much ire.

In Heironymous' mind, longer working hours were an inevitability of the development process. Indeed, most developers will tell you that crunching is simply a fact of making a game, but the issue many have taken the studio to task for regards falsified claims of crunch hour needs, pertaining to perpetually missed release dates and milestones. However, Heironymous says that no one at the studio worked any harder than management themselves did, and that compensation for additional hours was routinely given.

Recognising that working on the weekend was inevitable, Team Bondi put in place a scheme to (generously) reward employees for their weekend days spent at work. Additionally, in the last 6 months of the project a scheme was put in place to reward employees for staying back late on weeknights, and this resulted in myself and most of my team getting an additional 4 weeks of leave upon completion of L.A. Noire, on top of the weekend working payment.
Towards the end of the project I was probably working (on average) around 65 hours per week. Apart from a few isolated cases (various demo builds) this was the highest my regular hours ever got to, and at no time did I ever work 100 hours per week. If you think about it, that's 14 hours per day, 7 days per week, which is huge. I can't say that no-one ever worked 100 hours per week, but those sorts of hours were not encouraged. In fact, if someone on my team was working that hard I would have done my best to stop them.
I never (and in my experience, neither did any of the other managers) expected anything from my team that I didn't expect of myself. The management team at Team Bondi was not ensconced in an Ivory Tower working normal hours while everyone else crunched. Brendan himself worked very long hours and few of us here in the studio are aware of how grueling the DA and motion capture shoot in LA was.

In regards to the accusing parties who have repeatedly commented (albeit anonymously) on the dire working conditions at the studio, Heironymous challenged their motivation for coming after the company.

== TEASER ==
If the motivation were to see improvement in the working conditions at Team Bondi, then I'm all for it. I have a wife and friends who didn't see very much of me during the latter stages of L.A. Noire, and I'm lucky my wife was so understanding. All of the management and staff at Team Bondi want to improve our processes so we can make even better games in a decent timeframe, without burning people out along the way. However, some of these comments in recent stories seem to go beyond that. Some ex-employees who left the company years ago want to see Team Bondi destroyed. They want to see 35 game developers out of a job. That seems to me to be a less laudable motivation.

At no point in Heironymous' missive does he lay down any theories as to why former employees would be banding together to ruin the studios' reputation, nor does he address the crediting issues that left a hundred former employees without published credit for their work on L.A. Noire (most recently covered by our own Patrick Klepek here). However, Heironymous does concede that over the course of the game's lengthy development cycle, some mistakes were likely made, and simply asks for the chance to improve on things for the future.

Saying all of this, no-one at Team Bondi is under the illusion that crunching is a good way to work and we're actively working to learn from our mistakes for our next project. The people at Team Bondi are great to work with and I'm confident that we can make Team Bondi a leading game studio on the international stage.
Please think about that when you talk about boycotting L.A. Noire or about how heinous Team Bondi is. There is a team of dedicated game developers here in Sydney that look forward to learning from their mistakes, improving on their successes and taking on the world again next time around.
Alex Navarro on Google+

124 Comments

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HadesTimes

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Edited By HadesTimes

@FluxWaveZ: because things like LEGAL, ARE the publisher's responsibility, and credits fall into that. And i did end the post by saying that the Producers should have taken control over this and made sure everyone got credited. But in light of what the post after mine said, I think this whole thing is a little more inside baseball than perhaps has been reported. I think this whole situation is probably symptom of a greater problem in the industry. The system of crediting obviously needs to be reviewed. People who work hard on a project even for a little while need to get credited no matter what.

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FluxWaveZ

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Edited By FluxWaveZ
@HadesTimes: What are you blaming R* for? The credits? Where did you get the information that the credits are the publisher's responsibility? 
 
And Rockstar did more than they had to so that the game could actually ship, according to past articles. The relationship between R* and Team Bondi actually soured because R* was taking more and more creative control so that the game could actually see the light of day faster.
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Danda

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Edited By Danda

Here's my rebuttal to the rebuttal: 
 
I never (and in my experience, neither did any of the other managers) expected anything from my team that I didn't expect of myself. 
 
I don't care if you worked crazy hours too. It's still wrong. Also, you are in a lead position. Success for leads is not the same as success for lowly employees. What I mean is that if McNamara works 120 hour weeks, at the end of the project he's going to be rich and famous as a consequence, but the rest of the guys will just get a couple of weeks off or something. I don't know if you got some bonus at the end of the project, but you are closer to the top that those nobodies who got screwed. 
 
 I have a wife and friends who didn't see very much of me during the latter stages of L.A. Noire, and I'm lucky my wife was so understanding. 
 
That's so nice, lucky you. Other wives are not as patient as yours. But not seeing your family is still wrong. You mention a wife but not any kids. Do you know how hard it is to not see your son for days? How can you defend it in any way, even for the greatest game in the world? At the end of the day, they are still games, not bridges or highways.  
 
Some ex-employees who left the company years ago want to see Team Bondi destroyed.  
 
Conspiracy! Do you realize how paranoid and unrealistic that sounds? Also, you haven't addressed any complaints directly. Do you really think it was justifiable to stay on crunch mode for years? Really? 
 ------
One last thing, Heironymous isn't defending McNamara. He's actually defending himself. If McNamara falls, as he deserves, he will be out of a job, and the stink of this is going to follow him for a while.

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HadesTimes

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Edited By HadesTimes

I hope no one is actually blaming Team Bondi for this, it's Rockstar's fault. In my opinion something like end credits are the Publishers responsibility, not the developers. It's miracle enough that they get the game out let alone give everyone credit for it. Publishers deal with the details of getting the game out there, advertising, credits, etc... But more importantly whoever the Producer and Executive Producer were on L.A. Noire I think they SERIOUSLY dropped the ball. I think if anyone should have taken care of this, it would have been them.

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benderunit22

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Edited By benderunit22

Heironymous? What a kick-ass name.

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Rick_Dakan

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Edited By Rick_Dakan

@Jimbo: Yeah, very good point. Extra time off does not equal extra pay for extra hours worked.

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SlasherMan

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Edited By SlasherMan

Damage control! Too late.

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Brendan

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Edited By Brendan

@HrMagni said:

I find it funny/sad when managers says they never expect more of the employes than they do of themselves and at the same time time i doubt if the employees did do as much as the management, they would get same kind of salary, credit and compensations as the managers. But alas this is the way of the world, for now.

Usually it works that way because the best people are supposed to be rewarded with top positions, and are usually expected to take on more responsibility for the overall success of the project. Who would want to deal with working in such demanding positions if there wasn't adequate incentive? There would be few leaders out there if the current system didn't exist.

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YOUNGLINK

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Edited By YOUNGLINK

heironymous? he's makin that shit up.

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Brendan

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Edited By Brendan

@Da_Madness said:

@leebmx said:
As others have pointed out I can't really see anything in his statement which contradicts any of the accusasions made by former employees. He doesn't even touch on the most important point they made which was that the management constantly gave misleading release dates to encourage extra hours and crunching. It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the management could admit they made serious mistakes, and if they had compensated people for their time properly and credited the people that left before the project was finished. It is the lack of compensation and credit which makes them look so nasty. Also he makes no mentions of Brendan MacNamara's supposedly aggressive management style.
I completely agree. All the guy is confirming is that it was great to be in management.

I feel compelled to note that a few of the things both of you said in your comments were definitely commented on in the article. He didn't touch upon false claims of crunch hour needs or un-credited work.

admit they made serious mistakes

no-one at Team Bondi is under the illusion that crunching is a good way to work and we're actively working to learn from our mistakes for our next project

compensated people for their time properly

Team Bondi put in place a scheme to (generously) reward employees for their weekend days spent at work. Additionally, in the last 6 months of the project a scheme was put in place to reward employees for staying back late on weeknights

confirming is that it was great to be in management

I never (and in my experience, neither did any of the other managers) expected anything from my team that I didn't expect of myself. The management team at Team Bondi was not ensconced in an Ivory Tower working normal hours while everyone else crunched

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bacongames

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Edited By bacongames

@SeriouslyNow: My point was that he wasn't just giving out an anonymous jab back at the people who aren't currently employed at Bondi. In the age of the internet to single yourself out there by putting your name out there (and ostensibly your contact information) is a bold move. Do I believe what he has to say? I don't know. But I'm not picking a side, I just admired the mere fact that he wasn't hiding behind anonymity. Of course that's not condemning those who did but still.

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Da_Madness

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Edited By Da_Madness
@leebmx said:
As others have pointed out I can't really see anything in his statement which contradicts any of the accusasions made by former employees. He doesn't even touch on the most important point they made which was that the management constantly gave misleading release dates to encourage extra hours and crunching.  It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the management could admit they made serious mistakes, and if they had compensated people for their time properly and credited the people that left before the project was finished. It is the lack of compensation and credit which makes them look so nasty.  Also he makes no mentions of Brendan MacNamara's supposedly aggressive management style.
I completely agree. All the guy is confirming is that it was great to be in management.
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leebmx

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Edited By leebmx

As others have pointed out I can't really see anything in his statement which contradicts any of the accusasions made by former employees. He doesn't even touch on the most important point they made which was that the management constantly gave misleading release dates to encourage extra hours and crunching. 
 It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the management could admit they made serious mistakes, and if they had compensated people for their time properly and credited the people that left before the project was finished. It is the lack of compensation and credit which makes them look so nasty. 
 Also he makes no mentions of Brendan MacNamara's supposedly aggressive management style.

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AuthenticM

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Edited By AuthenticM

@Korolev said:

"I know, I know. I'll be labelled as 'Brendan McNamara's sock puppet' or worse,"

Too right you will mate. I'm not saying he's lying, I'm just saying he's probably lying.

Exactly. There are two sides to every story, but when Rockstar/Take-Two themselves say that they will never work with Team Bondi again, this coming after heavy rumors of them wanting to buy the studio, it's pretty easy to figure out which side has more incentive to lie and protect their ass.

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laserbolts

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Edited By laserbolts
@ZombiePie

65 hours per week? He throws that out there as if it isn't a big deal. That's not healthy. Just putting it out there.

Not healthy sure but it's not that big of a deal. Jesus I work 72 hours per week and it doesn't bother me at all. These guys are sitting on their asses in front of a computer too.
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csl316

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Edited By csl316

@FluxWaveZ: It does suck, I can't argue that.

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Aetheldod

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Edited By Aetheldod
@CL60: OK fair , I'll edit the post if it concerns you that much then
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CharlesAlanRatliff

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Just wanted to say that I like the images and case names used for these stories.

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notha

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Edited By notha

@hermes said:

Even people that work on crappy games worked their asses out to get them on shelves

that could be argued. i've been in a couple studios where nobody at all seemed to give a shit

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hermes

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Edited By hermes

That is all really nice: you worked hard as well as everyone else; but doesn't excuse the amount of people left uncredited...  
 
Game development is though, we get that. Even people that work on crappy games worked their asses out to get them on shelves. Anyone that knows anyone in the game developers world can attest to it. This story would be just another "hard working team" story if management wasn't so obtuse to recognize the work of people and just dash it as "working on the weekend was just inevitable"... 
 
That and the whole "you are just trying to get honest people fired" attitude doesn't help your case. You have to get something better than guilt to support your case.

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CL60

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Edited By CL60
@Aetheldod said:
@CL60: Never miss a chance do I :P ok I promise its the last time , well at least until  GOTY mania begins
Nobody cares, this topic isn't about the quality of the game. Yet like you always do, you like to come in and say THE GAME SUCKS! When it really doesn't. May not like it, but it's far from a bad game.
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Aetheldod

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Edited By Aetheldod
@CL60: Never miss a chance do I :P ok I promise its the last time , well at least until  GOTY mania begins
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sarahsdad

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@TheKreep said:

Think about it: L.A. Noire was the studio's first game. REALLY think about that. One of the most ambitious projects in recent gaming history was the game that those guys CUT THEIR TEETH on. OF COURSE it was never going to go smoothly.
On top of that, it took them seven years for them, as a company, to see a full production cycle end to end. I can only imagine how hard it is to learn from experience when things are moving that slowly.

I've been thinking about something along those lines as well, with some folks calling for a union. I can't speak to unions, since I've never been in one, but I have been around some bad managers. From what I'm getting out of the team Bondi story, and some others over the last year or two is that there needs to be better management, in general.

Maybe I'm totally off base, but there has to be a reason that "anonymous sources" haven't come out of dozens of other studios. Maybe some of them really take their time, or have the most whiz-bang programmers who ever lived, but that can't cover everyone. It's probably a pipe dream, but maybe the people who run some of the bigger studios could sit down at some point and compare notes about how their teams work, and how they handle emergencies.

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CL60

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Edited By CL60
@Aetheldod said:
A lousy game from a lousy administered development team ..... never again I will get a Bondi/McNamara game (if they ever make one) , and still they had to pay the fair share to the folks who worked their asses off , NO MATTER if they didn't stayed till the end. People need to get paid for their work , also hey if you want to crunch cool yo but you can't force overtime into people because you do it too , even more so without instant compesation.
Still going on and on about how LA Noire is a terrible game? lol. Get over it dude.
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TheDudeOfGaming

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Edited By TheDudeOfGaming

Why you should not be a game developer...right there. Now, if you'll excuse me, its time for me to try to apply to the Faculty of Dramatic Arts in Belgrade, after which i will become a movie director who will get fucked by any and all creditors/producers, and a movie director who will never be able to actually share his vision.

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Da_Madness

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Edited By Da_Madness
@alex said: 
Recognising that working on the weekend was inevitable, Team Bondi put in place a scheme to (generously) reward employees for their weekend days spent at work. Additionally, in the last 6 months of the project a scheme was put in place to reward employees for staying back late on weeknights, and this resulted in myself and most of my team getting an additional 4 weeks of leave upon completion of L.A. Noire, on top of the weekend working payment.
I find it extreamly interesting that people were being rewarded for working weekends only AFTER LA Noire was finished. If you were told that you would get some extrea leave if you did weekends and then worked your butt off thinking you'd be able to take that extra long holiday or spend more time with the kids thinking the game would be finished soon you'd be bloody pissed. 
 
Lets remember this game took SEVEN YEARS to finish.
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Aetheldod

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Edited By Aetheldod

 A lousy administered development team ..... never again I will get a Bondi/McNamara game (if they ever make one) , and still they had to pay the fair share to the folks who worked their asses off , NO MATTER if they didn't stayed till the end. People need to get paid for their work , also hey if you want to crunch cool yo but you can't force overtime into people because you do it too , even more so without instant compesation.

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HrMagni

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Edited By HrMagni

I find it funny/sad when managers says they never expect more of the employes than they do of themselves and at the same time time i doubt if the employees did do as much as the management, they would get same kind of salary, credit and compensations as the managers. But alas this is the way of the world, for now.

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FluxWaveZ

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Edited By FluxWaveZ
@csl316: Yes, but in this article, he doesn't even address the "rule" that isn't an ethical one in the first place.
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csl316

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@FluxWaveZ
@TheKreep: A ton of people were left uncredited. Rough development doesn't excuse several external factors that revolve around this controversy.
That article also said, in a brief sentence, that they knew leaving would forfeit their credit.
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Mr_Skeleton

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Edited By Mr_Skeleton

@Bwast said:

@Mr_Skeleton said:

@Bwast said:

@Mr_Skeleton said:

A: Truth

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

I use intuition!

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

Lie? No, doubt. Or maybe...it could be...lie? No no no, doubt. Definitely doubt. Doubt. Final answer, Regis.

@Dany said:

You have to do better than that detective.

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deactivated-63c9a5152a56a

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Wow, management saying that masses of workers are lying. Big shocker.

UNION.

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FluxWaveZ

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Edited By FluxWaveZ
@TheKreep: A ton of people were left uncredited. Rough development doesn't excuse several external factors that revolve around this controversy.
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TheKreep

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Edited By TheKreep

I don't think this is meant to be a rebuttal as much as it is an explanation, to give a little bit more context for those of us just reading about it on the internet. 
 
It seems to me like the higher ups at Team Bondi were trying their hardest to keep the company's shit together; it was an honest effort, regardless of how (un)successful they were at doing it. 
 
Think about it: L.A. Noire was the studio's first game. REALLY think about that. One of the most ambitious projects in recent gaming history was the game that those guys CUT THEIR TEETH on. OF COURSE it was never going to go smoothly. 
On top of that, it took them seven years for them, as a company, to see a full production cycle end to end. I can only imagine how hard it is to learn from experience when things are moving that slowly. 
 
Cut 'em some slack, I say. We can't all be perfect! And I can only believe that their next project is going to be run a LOT more efficiently, and in turn, less brutally. 
 
My two cents!

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Dany

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Edited By Dany

@Bwast said:

@Mr_Skeleton said:

@Bwast said:

@Mr_Skeleton said:

A: Truth

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

I use intuition!

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

Lie? No, doubt. Or maybe...it could be...lie? No no no, doubt. Definitely doubt. Doubt. Final answer, Regis.

You have to do better than that detective.

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Bravestar

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Edited By Bravestar
@justin3d said:

"They want to see 35 game developers out of a job."

So is he saying there are only 35 devs left at Team Bondi? That seems like a really low number.

35 devs and 100 unpaid interns.
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N7

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Edited By N7

This is just a mess right now. I feel bad for the guys at Team Bondi who had to put up with all of this crap. L.A Noire, while flawed, was an innovation and really stood out among the rest. It's a shame that it had to be completed under such harsh conditions.

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mutha3

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Edited By mutha3

Sorry, but I take the voices of the 20 odd people on the other side coupled with the fact that 139 people are left uncredited and  Brendan's own words

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Bwast

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Edited By Bwast
@Mr_Skeleton said:

@Bwast said:

@Mr_Skeleton said:

A: Truth

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

I use intuition!

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

Lie? No, doubt. Or maybe...it could be...lie? No no no, doubt. Definitely doubt. Doubt. Final answer, Regis.
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aceofspudz

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Edited By aceofspudz

The situation is volatile enough that I don't believe anything is being said without the aid of company lawyers.

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Jimbo

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Edited By Jimbo

"However, Heironymous says that no one at the studio worked any harder than management themselves did, and that compensation for additional hours was routinely given.

Recognising that working on the weekend was inevitable, Team Bondi put in place a scheme to (generously) reward employees for their weekend days spent at work. Additionally, in the last 6 months of the project a scheme was put in place to reward employees for staying back late on weeknights, and this resulted in myself and most of my team getting an additional 4 weeks of leave upon completion of L.A. Noire, on top of the weekend working payment."

I suspect management were earning significantly more money for their time than the rank and file though -which makes it easier to swallow- and given the project apparently took 7 years, you can't exactly say that management were doing a particularly good job can you? Manangement may have been putting in the same hours, but everybody else there was suffering for their inability to do their job very well.

So only in the last 6 months did they decide to start 'rewarding' people for their overtime, and even then they only got to collect their reward (time off) if they happened to still be in the job upon completion. That was big of them. I don't really see that he has offered much of a rebuttal to anything. Most of this was known, he's just spun it a bit.

I've worked 80 odd hour weeks before on occasion and tbh it's pretty stupid. Productivity and work quality just go through the floor eventually, especially if you're trying to do it for weeks at at time. You might get a bit more done, but it's unlikely to be anything like twice as much as a 40 hour week, at least in my experience.

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SeriouslyNow

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Yep, standard passive management mouthpiece malarkey. "I worked my up from the bottom and I survived" mentality coupled with management pattern blindness to what was going on around him.

@Tuffgong: What does his name matter when he's management? He's just doing what he's been told to do to protect the company image. This is little more than a signed press release defending company practices - hell it's almost boilerplate. It doesn't even address any of the complaints which have been proved and only gives the standard 'crunch time' excuse for extended work hours.

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Mr_Skeleton

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@Bwast said:

@Mr_Skeleton said:

A: Truth

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

I use intuition!

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

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Franstone

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@ZombiePie said:

65 hours per week? He throws that out there as if it isn't a big deal. That's not healthy. Just putting it out there.

When I did QA for Atari they had a mandatory 60 hour work week.
Was pretty crazy but was willing to go through it to get in the biz...
Then the bastards laid every1 off right after Christmas of course.
Eeeeeevil.
Prob needed to cut cost due to horrible decision making from higher ups who wanted to save their own asses.
: )
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BoneChompski

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I come from a culture of working ludicrous hours (farming) and I can tell you that all work and no play make Jack a medicated boy. And it's not like you get rich with these type of hours to compensate for your lack of social development.

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Little_Socrates

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Inclined to press truth in this case without seeing his face, and unless another exec comes out and has a similar response I'm gonna assume he's the nice guy working on the Death Star, if you understand my meaning. Certainly, Team Bondi is getting a slightly worse rap than it deserves, as otherwise I have to imagine some of the high-profile actors and actresses starring in the game would have come out about this by now; they have no real stake in the games industry, so if the motion-capture process is as much worse than the rest of the development as Hieronymus implies, then the actual development can't have been as rough as you might imagine. I can say the crew probably had it a lot worse than those actors and actresses, but, again, this is a question of overtime and interaction with management more than anything else.

With this one, I'm ready to stop thinking about the situation at Team Bondi. If LA Noire's development had a dark side, then that truth comes across in a game in which every person has something to hide. It's a brilliant piece of work, with all but a few poor decisions towards the finale of the game catapulting it towards a memory as one of the greatest games I've ever played.

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TheHT

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benu302000

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Doubt.

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buft

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Its all well and good to debunk these claims on the basis that the people involved are "anonymous" but the only reason that they have to do it that way is because whistle blowers in the industry tend to find no one will hire them after.

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Bwast

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@Mr_Skeleton said:

A: Truth

X: Doubt

Y: Lie

I use intuition!