In bloodborne I've hit my limit with stupid directionless nonsense. Byrgenwerth is a pinnacle for this garbage.

I just got to byrgenwerth and I had to look up the solution, which feels cheap.

How in the world is it apparent that you'd need to jump off the platform into what looks like a moonlit lake when we could assume that would kill the player in almost every circumstance?

Am I to rely on in game messages to find that solution? My game didn't have any messaged clues. That is awful game design that makes these games not fun.

Getting lost in a game hitting dead ends is a huge pain. Why does From Software think this is clever game design?

Did you talk to the guy in the rocking chair? He does point you (literally) in the direction you should go.

You hit a dead end. There's nothing there but an NPC, and all he does is point right at the edge you need to jump off. It's not the most obvious thing, sure, but it's better than that password door.

I can't think of any other points like that in the game after the one you got stuck on, if that's any consolation.

That's interesting, I totally get your point but I had the exact oposite reaction - I was a bit confused, I found a message telling me I would get a rune if I killed the guy in the chair, which I didn't and kept looking around, because something was off. Then I took the jump and found the boss, at the time I was sure it was an optional one and it felt awesome.

In every playthrrough since there have been messages telling me to straight up jump (take a step forward or whatever). So it's a double edged sword - brought me the great feeling of discovery, you appearently draw the short stick on that one.

@teddie: Finding the key to the upper cathedral was a pain to me. It tasks you with exploring a spot where you are getting shot by super lasers all the time.

I thought it was fairly obvious I needed to jump for finding Rom frankly.

@fear_the_booboo: I was just thinking of mainline stuff. That's easily the worst case in the game, though. The Rom jump and the password door at least have clues and can be reasoned out.

Ok, so there a lot of things you can miss in Bloodborne, entire areas and bosses that are optional, conversations and characters that can be skipped by accident, etc.

BUT COME ON! You went out of your way to get a key to open a locked door. Behind it is nothing but a dude in a rocking chair and a narrow path leading to a drop off into a lake. Disregard the fact that dropping to the side would lead you down to an area you had previously been to and (hopefully) opened a shortcut to never have to go through again.

Couldn't disagree more. It could be Souls-sense, but I nearly immediately understood what the game was telling me and I thought it was awesome. You're in a library pretty much, the place of places where it all began. The guy who discovered everything is sitting there and pointing towards the edge when you talk to him. You look, and there is water moving around. He knows what's there and I need to go kill it. Makes complete sense to me.

I felt some of the progress route cues were more vague in Bloodborne than they've ever been in the Souls series prior. But the lake surface portal in Bergynwerth was not one of them.

Instead of telling you how easy it was for me, however, I'll just suggest very, very loosely relying on a wiki progress guide if you're well and truly stuck. Don't go whole hog and look up a guide on boss or level strategies, but lean on something like this if you're simply at a loss as to what to do or where you should go. Nothing wrong with that.

The answer to your second question is yes...yes it is too frustrating to hit dead ends. This is the primary reason I can't get into the Souls games, including Bloodborne. I can deal with a lot of things in games, but giving the player nearly nothing, and in some cases, especially in these games, absolutely nothing to go on, is idiotic. It doesn't make the games more difficult, just more tedious, which makes it feel like the game is wasting your time. Being relegated to an aimless pixel hunt to find some obscure part of the environment so you can move forward isn't my idea of time well spent.

As for an answer to your last question, I just don't know. People seem to like these games, but it's more of a mystery to me than anything else. The Witcher series, for example, isn't my forte, but I fully understand why people like it. The same goes for the RTS genre. I don't much care for that type of game, but I fully understand why people like them. The Souls games I just can't put my finger on. There's and endless assortment of problems, but people just ignore them, when in any other game or series, the game would be chastised relentlessly.

The Souls games, including Bloodborne of course, is the perfect example of "to each his own". It's not so much that I even hate everything about them. It's just that I simply don't see how anyone else can love them, at least to the extent that they do, and I've thought about this quite a bit, just trying to have an epiphany of sorts, but I just don't think it will ever happen in this case.

@tyrrael: I think at some point it reached a critical point/mass of people talking about it. I loved Bloodborne a lot, but I can say it's an acquired taste sort of thing. Like people on 8-4 play talking about it and stuff like that led to me to appriciate it more than I would on my own.

I'm guessing those of you thinking this was obvious had already watched video of the Rom fight making this routing issue a lot less vexing since you're expecting a lake top boss fight.

@zacagawea: @nux The senile old man is pointing to the horizon.

The moon is white, reflections of moonlight are white. This isn't a puzzle as much as From Software running out of creative ideas, not having any clue of how to link to the next area.

Honestly this was lazy at best.

I could almost understand it if the balcony were sloped down or something, but alas it steps upward, foreboding a fall.

This is almost as garbage as the ancient dragon fight at the end of Dark Souls 2.

No, not at all, I've played a Souls game before and can understand what the game is telling me. Unlocking a door, finding a man pointing along a path that drops off into a moon lit lake was for a souls game, really really obvious.
This is not the first time a Souls game has placed a main story objective at the bottom of something you have to leap down into.
Hell, it's not the first time it was a boss fight you were jumping down into.
In Dark Souls the first you run down a stair case that leads to a black hole you have to equip a ring to survive the fall of, jump in, and the Four Kings boss fight starts.

Is this your first Souls game? I can see someone who hasn't played the rest maybe not getting the clues and being afraid the drop would kill them, but to the rest of us, yeah, it was obvious.

I've played all the souls games except Demon's souls and sorry dude but there's no "rest of us." I've already seen another thread saying someone spent a day trying to figure this one out. I quickly went to the wiki but that was because the circular reflection was mimicking the moonlight. If the moon were a crescent moon or anything this would have been more obvious. But you look at it and it's a perfectly round white reflection. I could see finding this out of sheer boredom but nothing else. There were several ways this could have been improved. Maybe a thin mist above the water would be more apt? Something the guy could say other than "aah aah" perhaps?

Anyway you reminded me that DS1 was like this too. I had to look that fall up as I recall. This stuff is way more frustrating than a silly boss fight because you literally don't know if you've missed something way back or where to go. This grinds the fun to a screeching halt.

@amazinmace : It's kind of insulting that you say the only way anyone found out was due to looking up videos or boredom. Plenty of people figured it out by following the clues and the Souls way of doing things. Maybe you didn't, and that's fine, seriously, that's fine, but saying other people weren't capable of figuring it out is pretty disrespectful dude.

Savvy players would have spoken to the man in the chair pointing to a lake with a reflection of the moon in the distance and a mysterious foggyshroud directly below the ledge.

Remember the Four Kings in the Abyss? How about the final boss encounter in the Ivory King? Lots of precedent for dropping down into precarious boss chambers. I discovered this naturally my first playthrough and was greatly rewarded and satisfied.

These games are obtuse, it's part of the fun

Not to mention, even IF the fall killed you it would be a 15 second run past a single enemy to get your echoes, so there was pretty much no risk at all to taking the dive.

Wow this thread is embarrassing.

That was kind of my logic going into that part. I was like oh what the hell I'll try it. And it worked.

Maybe it's just me and how my brain works, but I felt that it was super obvious where you needed to go at that part. Especially if you played Dark Souls 1 (Four Kings, anyone?)

I didn't have a problem with that particular part of the game. Once I talked to Willem and he pointed forward, I saw the ledge, looked down at the reflection of the moon on the lake, said "Yeah, ok. It would be pretty cool if this worked," and jumped off.

The Upper Cathedral key, on the other hand was fucking ridiculous to me. That was the one thing I've had to look up in this game because I never would have thought it would be hidden where it's hidden.

If you a looked at the lake you would have found the moon reflection which is an exact duplicate of the moon on the sky. The white light was clearly coming from below the surface which is why i thought to jump and check it out.

As obvious as it might be to some, that jump was completely counter intuitive to how the game works up to and past that point. Apart from the Four Kings fight a whole two games ago there wasn't a single instance in the series where you have to do some weird leap of faith like that. There are a lot of clues sure, but I think some people in the thread are overestimating how obvious it really was, especially for new players.

The game doesn't exactly encourage you to jump down holes and explore a bunch. In fact I had jumped down several elevator shafts preceding that point in the game, thinking there is a floor there or a secret, and always ended up dying so at first I was a bit hesitant to jump again. The fact that it's a dead end is probably the biggest giveaway about what you should do.

Overall I thought this was the weakest level link in the game. Everything else was so brilliantly inter-connected and suddenly you go to some magic lake and teleport to another part of town without much rhyme or reason. It's a little jarring.

*cough*

Actually it happens in every game. Demon's Souls you get to the Old One by jumping down an impossibly deep shaft. Dark Souls 1 you get to Four Kings that way. Dark Souls 2 you not only have to make the crazy jump to fight the final DLC boss but if you watch the intro cinematic your character leaps into a giant whirlpool which drops them in Lordran.

@karkarov: except in Demons Souls it's a cinematic, you don't actually have to jump down an innocuous looking opening in the middle of a level, and DLC doesn't really count since we're talking about the main game here. Just getting into the DLC area in Dark Souls 1 set a new record of obscurity.

Four Kings is the only time this mechanic happens in the main game and it's twice as fucked there because you need an item equipped or else you'll die from the fall.

I had some issues finding my way through Forbidden Forest and a couple of other areas, but the lake jump was fairly obvious. Like, where else are you going to go?

All due respect, 'Tone.

Well that's if you don't die. Yes I know, you REALLY have to suck if you die. But it is possble. If you do on subsequent trips down the rabbit hole in Demon's you just jump. Either way the "jump in the reflection on the water" bit in Byrgenwerth had me confused for like 30 seconds to a minute. For a Souls game it is fairly straight forward :P

I thought this was actually a great moment, I peered over the edge of the platform into the lake and thought surely, I'm not supposed JUMP in there am I? Then the old man in the chair wordlessly points to that exact conclusion. I loved it.

I get your point, there are some parts that are straight up missing in the final game, I think what they shipped is Bloodborne v0.6 because there are a lot of half baked ideas here. Like when you beat Vicar Amelia, apparently you are given the password to the forgotten woods, but damned if they give you any indication as such other than a vague item description.

And you jump off a ledge to get out of the painted world of ariamis.

Right, but at some point: who cares? It took me exactly one second to figure out I needed to jump down there. We're in Byrgenwerth, the place where it all began. Master Wilheim is sitting there in his chair, the dude who sort of opposed the Healing Church in a sense and he is pointing to the ledge when you talk to him. You go there, look down, and there is nasty business going on down there. There is a boss there of some significance. No question about it.

Of course, I cannot think how I would react if I never played one of these games before, but it seems pretty obvious to me. You're talking about a game where earlier, you were probably killed by what appeared to be an overpowered enemy and you respawned somewhere else. It seems like a click to me. In fact, I would go as far as to say without Wilheim pointing exactly where you need to go, it will still be pretty obvious when you look down there.

@zevvion: Right, I just think it's bad game design. It's not as bad as the Four Kings thing where you needed to have the item equipped as well, but it's still bad. I agree on all counts of it being obvious in the long run and that eventually something is going to make you jump down there - for me I think it was a note that said as much. Like I said earlier, I tried a lot of interesting looking jumps in the first half of the game only to fall to my death each and every time. The game sort of teaches you that you're supposed to avoid pitfalls.

Honestly it doesn't matter that much. One of the half dozen clues will point you forward and if not the lack of other options should be enough to push someone quite literally over the edge. I just thought saying "well duh it's super obvious how could anyone miss it" is a tad condescending and presumptuous. It's all subjective anyway, sort of like someone saying this boss was hard for me and then another person coming in to say well you must be bad at the game cause he was super easy for me. I simply wouldn't fault someone for not figuring it out right away, thats all.

I thought this was genius design IMO. Byrgenwerth is quite small, not much to explore. You get and key and open a door that is locked. The only thing there is a Man who points towards the lake. So, following video game logic, you follow the pointing finger and hope for the best.

The lamp was right there, again, Byrgenwerth is small. So, why not just take a chance and jump?

That was my thinking at least. Clever idea for a "door" to a boss fight.

@humanity: I'm not condescending, I'm just saying people who needed more than 2 seconds to figure out what to do are incredibly stupid and inferior to me in every single way.

In all seriousness though, yes, I agree it doesn't surprise me it took some people a while to figure out. But I don't think that necessarily means it's bad game design. If anything, I appreciate the out-of-the-box design of it that still makes complete sense; even if you connected the dots a while later or had to look it up online. To be clear, I hope it comes across I don't think anyone not figuring it out immediately 'sucks' on some level. We think alike as far as that goes. I just don't think it being a (temporary) barrier to some people is a bad thing per se.

I think I can put this whole debate to rest with a REAL FIRST TIME EXPERIENCE from a Souls vet...ME. Since I've essentially recorded everything in my playthrough I of course recorded my encounter with Master Willem. I have the knowledge of Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 in my pocket and I saw Brad play through Demonss Souls and this is how I handled the situation.

You'll want to watch 8:15 to 11:40. My final words were, "Like the Abyss?" Keep volume low after falling in because I lose my shit with laughter after that.

I left a note there that says, "reminiscent of darkness (Abyss) therefore take a step forward" and it has 31 fines.

The only place I remember getting stuck in Bloodborne was finding the door to give the password too. For whatever reason my tiny brain just kept ignoring the path to get there and I ran around the Cathedral Ward and Old Yarhnam just looking for a sign. I am actually happy about this however, because to gave me some time to use various weapons while upgrading materials for this point in the game were easy to find.

Didn't even think about it at the lake, I had zero echos after the Hunter fight there and just jumped in. Weee! Then I saw the giant spider, who was just chillin' at this point, but DEATH TO ALL SPIDERS!!

@golguin: I'm pretty sure I gave you one of those fines.

There was no railing there and you needed a key to get over there. Literally the only option was to walk off or turn the game off.

Yeah, i have no clue where i am anymore. last thing i was told to do was go to the workshop place, got to the top but the door was locked so i went and found a few places, fought a few bosses, still have no clue where this key is. Haven't played in a couple weeks, by the time i get back to it i'll have forgotten everything about the game lol.

If you beat Amelia you have a password. Go to the round courtyard (the one that you opened with the 20,000 blood key) with the giants that are now sleeping. Look around that area and you'll find a path and a place that asks for a password.

@teddie: I was lucky to here Brad tell Jeff the password door thing in something, so it let me know.

The new patch with the item descriptions really helped me seal this in my head as a dead giveaway. The Lunarium key straight up says there is something in the lake involving the dude sitting in the chair who points directly to said lake. I'd say it's pretty obvious if you're paying the amount of attention the game (or series for vets) has demanded up to this point.

Come on, man. The old coot points to the ledge. This is the only location in Bergynwerth that you fight your way to get into.The water is bubbling and glowing white. At the very least you jump off to test it out. If you die, then you conclude that the answer must be somewhere else.

sheeit