Borderlands 2 Fixed The Wrong Things

Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

I really loved Borderlands. Shooting bandits in the face to get guns to shoot more bandits was awesome. And still is. Borderlands 2 has better guns, more interesting enemies, better leveling, and better graphics. So why do I end every session going "that is bullshit". After doing that 8 times or so I think that is the end for me.

Ultimately, it was the cars. They sucked in 1 and they suck just as bad in 2. But they are just a patch over the glaring travel issues. There is nothing like running all over to do a mission, only to just be left in the middle of nowhere having to run back. The game just puts so much trudging between my bullets and some jerk's face. I can't do it anymore. If they could have strung the missions in some logical order so you could do a ton at once, or chain them in a big circle leading back to camp. that would be amazing. As it is, the game puts too much between me and its good parts.

I'm sorry Borderlands 2, I love and hate you so much.

#1 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

I really loved Borderlands. Shooting bandits in the face to get guns to shoot more bandits was awesome. And still is. Borderlands 2 has better guns, more interesting enemies, better leveling, and better graphics. So why do I end every session going "that is bullshit". After doing that 8 times or so I think that is the end for me.

Ultimately, it was the cars. They sucked in 1 and they suck just as bad in 2. But they are just a patch over the glaring travel issues. There is nothing like running all over to do a mission, only to just be left in the middle of nowhere having to run back. The game just puts so much trudging between my bullets and some jerk's face. I can't do it anymore. If they could have strung the missions in some logical order so you could do a ton at once, or chain them in a big circle leading back to camp. that would be amazing. As it is, the game puts too much between me and its good parts.

I'm sorry Borderlands 2, I love and hate you so much.

#2 Posted by Catarrhal (820 posts) -
#3 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -
#4 Posted by Brodehouse (9581 posts) -

I think the addition of weaving and hard to hit enemies makes the game less fun and not more. I feel like there are way more guns with slow moving bullets, amplifying the annoyance. It feels like a game I need a mouse to shoot accurately and a controller to use the menus. Rakk were a mild annoyance, now they're something I actively avoid because they're not fun to fight.

#5 Posted by Humanity (8802 posts) -

It took me an inordinate amount of time to figure out how the handbreak even works with the vehicles, much less be able to actually power slide into an enemy for the Badass ranks. I don't know why they wouldn't switch the controls to typical Left Trigger gas and right Trigger break. It's not like the vehicular combat is THAT involved.

Recently I've had to do some heavy trudging myself even when the missions were in the same area. Clearing out a bandit camp only to have to go all the way back to it to do another mission where all enemies have respawned is kind of awful. They could have at least did a palette swap on some of the wall textures I dunno.

#6 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2224 posts) -
#7 Edited by pweidman (2297 posts) -

Although I can completely relate to the tc's complaint/frustration about the trudging about far from cars and fast travel, I have to say the thing that gets me the most, that was pretty crappy in the first game, are the maps. They really can confuse more than help and don't help you find your way(like they could have with a redesign), in terms of finding mission objectives mainly.

The game's a little buggy too; my assasin's quest is glitched out, and that happened too often in the first game too. Keeping offline and online characters seperate seems like a better and better idea to me. I am still enjoying the game for sure but the farther I get the more I wonder what Gearbox was thinking during development. They added some good stuff, no doubt, but didn't fix many of the first game's annoyances for sure.

I'm slowing down on BL2 for now and Torchlight 2 is really helping with that :]. Maybe give it a go tc.

#8 Posted by BisonHero (6159 posts) -

I agree with the topic title, but not about the cars in particular. Like Jeff said on the podcast, they added exactly what the players wanted (the same game with more polish) instead of exceeding expectations with anything groundbreaking or risky. So for me, the things they didn't fix were that it's basically the same, and while I liked BL1, it did get pretty boring after a while. I wish the classes had more activated abilities, and I wish there were more specializations. Similar to Mass Effect, because everybody's abilities are on long-ass cooldowns, the characters mostly feel and play the same, aka "the guy who shoots everybody in the face, and uses an activated ability once every 30 seconds".

#9 Posted by Tennmuerti (7998 posts) -

Dunno. They fixed almost everything I wanted for sure. As well as what most people wanted.

Don't mind the traveling. Borderlands has always been the kind of game you kill time with, like any other loot grinding game Diablo, TQ, any of them, great to play on auto pilot while listening to the Bombcast or music. Agree that the vehicles still suck, but mostly that comes from the mouse controls instead of being able to turn with keys. Still just because one thing did not get fixed, doesn't mean they fixed the wrong stuff at all, that statement seems like an exaggeration for effect.

@BisonHero: Completely disagree about classes, they feel much more varied, customizable and dynamic in their abilities use compared to the first game. As a gunzerker i spend almost 95% of combat time gunzerkering and the ability can be off cooldown in as little as 10 seconds with a proper spec/mod. Siren ability starts off at 12s cool down already and can be even lower, and made to work in entirely different ways for different purposes. Assassin ability is likewise on a short cooldown and can later be chained. All class abilities start off relatively weak and feel situational and rare to use, but as you get into higher levels they become absolutely key to the point where your playstyle revolves around them a lot. I would have agreed with you at the start of the game, but it has since evolved.

Online
#10 Posted by BisonHero (6159 posts) -

@Tennmuerti: Ah, fair enough. My opinion is based on me watching friends play it, and they are mostly early in the game. I suppose I just want Borderlands to be a different game, where instead of just speccing your main ability in different directions, you actually have several different abilities to choose from. The first game didn't have enough RPG for me, I guess.

#11 Edited by Peanut (953 posts) -

Don't play Borderlands alone. That's really the only advice I can give anyone who has an issue with the game, no matter what it is. I played through all of both games with the same crew and they're some of my favourite games this generation and there's very little I would change about them. Some of my best memories, from both games, come from the time spent traveling.

#12 Posted by Catarrhal (820 posts) -

@SomeDeliCook said:

@Catarrhal said:

You might want to read this thread first.

If you have to resort to using tricks to deal with a game's flaw then something is wrong

Oh, I don't disagree. Except--personally, I never had a problem with the first game's pacing. I haven't had a chance to play the sequel, though, because my PS3 is busted…

#13 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

Don't mind the traveling. Borderlands has always been the kind of game you kill time with, like any other loot grinding game Diablo, TQ, any of them, great to play on auto pilot while listening to the Bombcast or music. Agree that the vehicles still suck, but mostly that comes from the mouse controls instead of being able to turn with keys. Still just because one thing did not get fixed, doesn't mean they fixed the wrong stuff at all, that statement seems like an exaggeration for effect.

Just because I can idly play a game, that doesn't mean it's ok for it to have boring nothing sections. To me they don't add anything, and I have to actively do something to get past them. It's not like the taxis in WoW. Diablo doesn't have them. It's like an open-world game, but lacking all the stuff to do between points. There are very few quests to run into, no collectibles, and no reason to kill the enemies out there, you're just better off going to the next mission location and killing there. Many people are clearly satisfied enough with it, but I'd be surprised if they actually like the dead sections and aren't just tolerating them.

#14 Posted by 49th (2688 posts) -

I love driving cars in 2. They feel so awesome to spin around shooting the fuck out of everything then boosting into guys and going fast. Also punching Rakks in the face as they charge you is the best.

#15 Edited by Tennmuerti (7998 posts) -

@YoungFrey: There are actually a lot of collectibles and hidden stuff out there in Borderlands 2 by the way, you are straight up factually wrong on that. And as for yor original point most areas give you several quests to do in the straight away, and you can do them one after another and some simultaneously.

Online
#16 Edited by Abendlaender (2758 posts) -

What I really hate in the game is, if it makes me fight through a bandit camp I already cleared like 3 times for a sidequests. I get 1-3 XP for every kill and it's annoying as hell. So I just started running through everything but I feel like that's not the way it should be. I would have really appreciated it, if the side quests took place in new locations so I don't have to clean the same camp again and again or if they take me to known places, at least they could change a bit. For example the quest early on for the Incinerator where you have to take Matchstick to the Dragon? And for some reason the Boss is alive again? But killing him got me 35 XP and all of the annoying bandits before probably were worth 50 XP total. That was just a pain in the ass.

It doesn't happen THAT often to be honest but it's grinding a bit on my nerves.

#17 Edited by bybeach (4724 posts) -

The mouse control is weird, I got quickly used to it, though at first I activated my controller...back to mouse for driving. The having to (run)... just had the fight of my life getting back to turn in, it's a drag but just how it is. I discovered the 2-car by accident, but didn't think it out. Instead it just irritated me into staying with the top one...not using my noggin admittedly.

Borderlands 2 seems like a great game, at least for me right now

#18 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

@Abendlaender said:

What I really hate in the game is, if it makes me fight through a bandit camp I already cleared like 3 times for a sidequests. I get 1-3 XP for every kill and it's annoying as hell. So I just started running through everything but I feel like that's not the way it should be. I would have really appreciated it, if the side quests took place in new locations so I don't have to clean the same camp again and again or if they take me to known places, at least they could change a bit. For example the quest early on for the Incinerator where you have to take Matchstick to the Dragon? And for some reason the Boss is alive again? But killing him got me 35 XP and all of the annoying bandits before probably were worth 50 XP total. That was just a pain in the ass.

It doesn't happen THAT often to be honest but it's grinding a bit on my nerves.

That was the bit that got me to give up for good. And after that, I'm just left there to slog back? I quit and deleted so I wouldn't waste any more time letting the game make me angry.

#19 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

@YoungFrey: I fought my way up there, but didn't kill the boss again, I completed the quest and jumped. Because you dont take fall damage.

#20 Posted by HerbieBug (4212 posts) -

@Abendlaender said:

What I really hate in the game is, if it makes me fight through a bandit camp I already cleared like 3 times for a sidequests. I get 1-3 XP for every kill and it's annoying as hell. So I just started running through everything but I feel like that's not the way it should be. I would have really appreciated it, if the side quests took place in new locations so I don't have to clean the same camp again and again or if they take me to known places, at least they could change a bit. For example the quest early on for the Incinerator where you have to take Matchstick to the Dragon? And for some reason the Boss is alive again? But killing him got me 35 XP and all of the annoying bandits before probably were worth 50 XP total. That was just a pain in the ass.

It doesn't happen THAT often to be honest but it's grinding a bit on my nerves.

I got 12xp when I killed him. D:

#21 Posted by _Zombie_ (1462 posts) -

I didn't mind it at all. In fact, I personally love driving around. Kind of satisfying to blast away enemies with the turret, then run them down.

#22 Posted by coakroach (2488 posts) -

The worst part of Borderlands 2 is FUCKING SNIPER RIFLES THAT BURST FIRE WHEN ZOOMED

I LINE UP A HEADSHOT, I PULL THE TRIGGER AND AHBDUSHBOUDSFBQOUHSDBGIAHSDBI3GFAIS I'M SHOOTING INTO THE FUCKING SKY.

THE FUCKING WORST. SHIT. FUCK.

#23 Posted by HistoryInRust (6274 posts) -

@SomeDeliCook said:

@Catarrhal said:

You might want to read this thread first.

If you have to resort to using tricks to deal with a game's flaw then something is wrong

I agree with this. It's less a problem with the design of the levels and more an issue that could be solved with a "Town Portal" equivalent. I don't understand why all the checkpoint machines aren't fast travel-capable.

#24 Edited by Funkydupe (3311 posts) -

I like the game, the vehicles and I don't have to be given a blink/teleport to enjoy it.

@zombiebigfoot: I like it as well. The world doesn't feel large at all, and with teleports they might as well have made a game with set missions with direct loading between them instead because nobody would notice the planet they're trying to show off. Bringing back an item is one thing. If it was just about killing something/someone, phoning it in should be sufficient for XP, but you would still have to go back to the NPC to receive an eventual physical reward item.

@coakroach: Using a sniper rifle that doesn't have burst when zoomed seems like a solid solution.

#25 Posted by HistoryInRust (6274 posts) -

@pweidman said:

Although I can completely relate to the tc's complaint/frustration about the trudging about far from cars and fast travel, I have to say the thing that gets me the most, that was pretty crappy in the first game, are the maps. They really can confuse more than help and don't help you find your way(like they could have with a redesign), in terms of finding mission objectives mainly.

Holy fuck. This man speaks the truth in fucking sonnets.

The level design is rather confusing and extremely busy to begin with, but the maps don't give you any sense of the topography of the areas you're in, so you'll often spend an inordinate amount of time lost in search of a path you see on the map when, ideally, they'd tell you if it's above or below your current position.

#26 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

@SomeDeliCook said:

@Catarrhal said:

You might want to read this thread first.

If you have to resort to using tricks to deal with a game's flaw then something is wrong

I agree with this. It's less a problem with the design of the levels and more an issue that could be solved with a "Town Portal" equivalent. I don't understand why all the checkpoint machines aren't fast travel-capable.

This. And while there are some issues with making the checkpoints traveleable, just make some of them one-way. Or give me a town portal. Or do quests properly, so you phone it in, get a reward (no, I don't care if getting a gun beamed to me is unrealistic), then give me a quest that requires me to kill my way from where I am to the next quest area.

#27 Posted by Discoman (159 posts) -

I haven't touched Borderlands 2 but I did replay 1 recently and the respawning enemies in certain areas is really annoying when you're just trying to get from point A to B and certain areas don't allow vehicle passage.

#28 Posted by pweidman (2297 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: Ah hell, you said it much better and more specifically than I did :P.

#29 Posted by ajamafalous (11845 posts) -

I actually disagree with you about the cars. I think they're incredibly fun and actually useful in this game. It's nice being able to run over 3 guys and not have your car explode.

#30 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

@ajamafalous said:

I actually disagree with you about the cars. I think they're incredibly fun and actually useful in this game. It's nice being able to run over 3 guys and not have your car explode.

I think you are using a strawman argument. I didn't say I felt the cars were too strong. I think they are clunky, and are a patch on poor world design. The spawning system is too involved. It doesn't save your skin selection. And they heavily nerf the XP you get from killing with them.

#31 Posted by ajamafalous (11845 posts) -
@YoungFrey said:

@ajamafalous said:

I actually disagree with you about the cars. I think they're incredibly fun and actually useful in this game. It's nice being able to run over 3 guys and not have your car explode.

I think you are using a strawman argument. I didn't say I felt the cars were too strong. I think they are clunky, and are a patch on poor world design. The spawning system is too involved. It doesn't save your skin selection. And they heavily nerf the XP you get from killing with them.

No, you said: 
@YoungFrey  said: 

Ultimately, it was the cars. They sucked in 1 and they suck just as bad in 2.

Which simply isn't the case; they're much more powerful in 2. I'm not disputing whether they're "a patch on poor world design." I don't think they are, but that's an impossible thing to argue one way or the other. I enjoy driving the cars around. Does that instantly upgrade them from "a patch on poor world design" to "a system in the game?" As for your last point, XP gained while in a car was heavily nerfed in the first game as well.
#32 Posted by _Zombie_ (1462 posts) -

@coakroach said:

The worst part of Borderlands 2 is FUCKING SNIPER RIFLES THAT BURST FIRE WHEN ZOOMED

I LINE UP A HEADSHOT, I PULL THE TRIGGER AND AHBDUSHBOUDSFBQOUHSDBGIAHSDBI3GFAIS I'M SHOOTING INTO THE FUCKING SKY.

THE FUCKING WORST. SHIT. FUCK.

Then don't use burst fire snipers for precision. Seems pretty obvious that they're not intended for pinpoint accuracy.

@Funkydupe: It certainly helps that the environments are beautiful. Makes for driving around in it nicer.

#33 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

@ajamafalous said:

@YoungFrey said:

@ajamafalous said:

I actually disagree with you about the cars. I think they're incredibly fun and actually useful in this game. It's nice being able to run over 3 guys and not have your car explode.

I think you are using a strawman argument. I didn't say I felt the cars were too strong. I think they are clunky, and are a patch on poor world design. The spawning system is too involved. It doesn't save your skin selection. And they heavily nerf the XP you get from killing with them.

No, you said:
@YoungFrey said:

Ultimately, it was the cars. They sucked in 1 and they suck just as bad in 2.

Which simply isn't the case; they're much more powerful in 2. I'm not disputing whether they're "a patch on poor world design." I don't think they are, but that's an impossible thing to argue one way or the other. I enjoy driving the cars around. Does that instantly upgrade them from "a patch on poor world design" to "a system in the game?" As for your last point, XP gained while in a car was heavily nerfed in the first game as well.

I feel like I didn't describe what I mean by "suck" well enough. I don't like using the cars, didn't in B1, still don't. It's not an issue of power or speed or how fly the paintjob is. I never felt they were underpowered in B1. They are something I'm forced to use to get between missions. It's the car system that sucks. Having to run to the CaR, reselect skin since it doesn't remember, select spawn, select teleport, drive to location, deal with random enemies, use map to figure out where to go, get out and then start doing what I wanted to be doing the whole time. And that is when it works and you don't get blown up in the middle of nowhere. I know the XP was heavily nerfed in B1, my point was that the cars aren't useful for killing for gain. They are fine for killing enemies that are blocking my path, but not useful for getting XP.

#34 Posted by Humanity (8802 posts) -

@zombiebigfoot said:

@coakroach said:

The worst part of Borderlands 2 is FUCKING SNIPER RIFLES THAT BURST FIRE WHEN ZOOMED

I LINE UP A HEADSHOT, I PULL THE TRIGGER AND AHBDUSHBOUDSFBQOUHSDBGIAHSDBI3GFAIS I'M SHOOTING INTO THE FUCKING SKY.

THE FUCKING WORST. SHIT. FUCK.

Then don't use burst fire snipers for precision. Seems pretty obvious that they're not intended for pinpoint accuracy.

@Funkydupe: It certainly helps that the environments are beautiful. Makes for driving around in it nicer.

I actually like burst fire snipers because the recoil makes headshots easy. Just aim below the head and you'll always get criticals. I actually have a harder time getting crits going just for the head because I often hit the head - of a bandit of course - and I don't get the crit which annoys the hell out of me.

#35 Posted by bkbroiler (1604 posts) -

I can't disagree with a lot of the points in this thread. If you try to do all the sidequests, you end up way overleveled, and then you're pretty much just running from point A to point B and hitting switches. Sometimes I wonder why I bother continuing doing the sidequests, but I feel that compulsion to complete them all. I agree the giant open world with not that much in it is kind of weird, but, damn. Can't stop playing this game. I love it.

#36 Posted by believer258 (11629 posts) -

@bybeach said:

The mouse control is weird, I got quickly used to it, though at first I activated my controller...back to mouse for driving. The having to (run)... just had the fight of my life getting back to turn in, it's a drag but just how it is. I discovered the 2-car by accident, but didn't think it out. Instead it just irritated me into staying with the top one...not using my noggin admittedly.

Borderlands 2 seems like a great game, at least for me right now

So, wait, you steer cars by pointing the camera in the direction you want to go? That sounds terribly familiar...

#37 Edited by _Zombie_ (1462 posts) -

@Humanity: I love them for the stopping power, myself. The high-damage, combined with the accuracy and the burst means that I can drop people pretty damn fast.

#38 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

@zombiebigfoot said:

@Humanity: I love them for the stopping power, myself. The high-damage, combined with the accuracy and the burst means that I can drop people pretty damn fast.

I found a large magazine the best thing to have on a sniper rifle myself. Because that huge reload time is worse than having to shoot again, so the longer you can put it off the better.

#39 Posted by bybeach (4724 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@bybeach said:

The mouse control is weird, I got quickly used to it, though at first I activated my controller...back to mouse for driving. The having to (run)... just had the fight of my life getting back to turn in, it's a drag but just how it is. I discovered the 2-car by accident, but didn't think it out. Instead it just irritated me into staying with the top one...not using my noggin admittedly.

Borderlands 2 seems like a great game, at least for me right now

So, wait, you steer cars by pointing the camera in the direction you want to go? That sounds terribly familiar...

I actually played halo evolved for PC back in the day, I don't remember though. Like I say at any rate, not getting to use A or D totally threw me off, and I went to controller for a few minutes. But you know, I've gotten used to mouse control. I've adjusted to that quite well.

#40 Posted by _Zombie_ (1462 posts) -

@YoungFrey: I've managed to get lucky enough to get snipers with decent reload times and fairly large-sized clips. The only time I notice the reload speed slowing is when I'm Gunzerking.

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