Regarding the day one "discovery zeitgeist"

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#1 Posted by Hayt (276 posts) -

Many people, GB staffers included, are saying "Day 1 is day 1" and that valuable because of the community working stuff out together. The game launches with a strategy guide though. That means, on day 0, the answers are there, for anyone that wants them. So at the point when it's "time to work something out" there is a guide. The obvious solution is to say "Well don't look at the guide" but you can't people who have read it stay out of threads, so the best bet would be to avoid discussion of the game in-case people with the playbook are in there saying "nah man, you just need to destroy the crystal behind him" or "world tendency works like this".

At this point what value does day 1 have? Exploring stuff would be richer if you didn't involve yourself in the communities because they will hold all the answers from a very early point in time. I just don't foresee it being some Fez-like labour but instead more a wiki by forum post. Even if the strategy guide is bunk people will have that wiki filling out in 48 hours and those people will also by contributing to the community talk, which wouldn't be a thing of discovery together more than the guy that's 2 bosses ahead of you telling you enemy weaknesses and where traps are,

I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cereal but I just don't see how this could be a big deal. In fact I think playing it away from the fount-of-all-answers that is the internet would be a richer experience if like me you want to discover stuff, not be told it.

#2 Edited by Ezekiel (399 posts) -

I don't get it either. The only player help I want is the orange messages. I want to test myself and try to interpret the lore myself this time.

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#3 Edited by Neonie (438 posts) -

I want exactly the opposite of what you're saying. When I go to play this game I want full wiki, guides, item locations, all of it. If I have a weapon and armor I know I want to use for most of the game then I want to make a bee line for those items. I don't want to wander this game in the dark but in the light. I don't think it's a richer experience to discover stuff in and not be told it, if that's what I wanted I would go run around in the woods without a compass.

And that's exactly why I don't buy into the whole "day one is the only way to play, gotta play with the community" shtick. Go forth minions, and collect for me all of the information I can hold :P

#4 Posted by csl316 (8359 posts) -

#jointhething

I dunno, I like playing games at my own pace. Probably just gonna play DS on weekends, anyway, and I don't feel like I'll be missing anything.

#5 Edited by TowerSixteen (542 posts) -

@neonie: Which, of course, is also more of an argument for not day 1.

I don't really get it either. It's not like it's an MMO. I'll wait for the PC version happily, and just not read spoilers. Problem solved.

I guess if you care about the invasion stuff it might be different.

#6 Edited by Zeik (2342 posts) -

Discovery in a Souls game goes beyond what a strategy guide would provide. It's not just about where to go, it's experimenting with different builds and different weapons and getting in there when PvP hasn't been "optimized" and every one is whering Havels Armor and Woodgrain Rings, or whatever. (The people who got scared by all the gankers in Dark Souls are usually the people who jumped in late. It was much less hardcore near launch.) There's also plenty who won't be looking at a guide and intend to discover everything on their own. Dark Souls had a guide too, but stuff like the Drake Sword was passed around by word of mouth more than anything.

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#7 Posted by Neonie (438 posts) -

@towersixteen: It is. I also don't want to be invaded but sadly I will be getting it when it's on PC, so my coming to late won't protect me from that since other people will also be at my level when it comes out on PC :P

#8 Edited by Aetheldod (3542 posts) -

I agree with your sentiment ... I wanna be ther on day one to play the game as soon as possibel and discover shit at my own pace , , but I never understood the impetus to "community through" as most people have , also I think people wanting the answers are just being lazy (no desire to insult , mind you) , then why the eff play the game if you wanted all revealed? Better yet go watch a lets play of someone else , but that just me.

#9 Edited by Zeik (2342 posts) -

I should probably also note that the main impetus for joining the "zeitgeist" is pretty much exactly that. Consider the fact that Giantbomb crew practically all got deep into Dark Souls around the same. It was because the people they were talking about video games were playing it and talking about it so they wanted to play it and talk about it. A lot of people like discussing video games with their friends, and it's way better when you're experiencing it at the same time.

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#10 Edited by Zacagawea (1588 posts) -

You're ignoring the non-internet part of the zeitgeist

#11 Edited by development (2219 posts) -

I really don't think the strategy guide will be that comprehensive at all. Remember those Brady Games guides? They used to just be glorified instruction manuals.

Think about how long it's taken people to discover things about Dark Souls I, and think about how long ENB has had to help write the thing. Not long.

Imagine getting invaded by someone who has no idea what they're doing. When was the last time that happened in DS I? There are plenty of reasons to get in on Day 1.

#12 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Being there on day 1 has no value at all, unless you are obsessed with talking about the Souls games in a timely fashion on message boards. (and fans of this series sure love to tell people that they play these games)

I'd rather play it on PC cheaper with better graphics, I have the self-control to simply not look at guides or faqs so them being available or not hardly changes anything.

Fact of the matter is, there's always going to be someone ahead of you posting shit on forums, or someone who pirated it and got ahead that way. The best way to play if you want to be surprised, day 1 or otherwise, is to go Dark Souls II forum/website blackout.

#13 Posted by wemibelec90 (1609 posts) -

I just don't understand anyone who thinks waiting is going to spoil everything. Just avoid any forums or videos dedicated to the game and you're golden. I think I'm going to wait (if my impulse buying habits don't get to me) and I will make sure to stay away from the wiki until I finished the game entirely and am comfortably noticing the things I missed.

#14 Edited by Demoskinos (14730 posts) -

I dunno I think its fun to try to parse out what is real and what is crazy made up shit. Its as close to being early 90's gaming again as possibly could be where you'd just hear the most insane rumors about games and trying to figure out what was real and what was total bullshit was half the fun. Especially with a game like Dark Souls 2 there has to be some really crazy obscure stuff in the game.

#15 Edited by Do_The_Manta_Ray (624 posts) -

I've played a fair share of Dark Souls 2 ( and a ridiculous amount of Dark/Demons Souls) between events and the beta sessions, and I'm incredibly excited for the game. God knows it's going to swallow what little social life DOTA's left me with.

The one thing I can't wrap my head around is this guide. Whenever I replay Dark Souls, I have this persistant, nagging thought in the back of my head. "Wouldn't it be great to be discovering all of this again, for the first time?"

Prompted by that mindset, I've tried to change things up, use character builds and weapons I wouldn't normally be comfortable with, experimenting with the different covenants and fitting the puzzle pieces together to make for "unique" runs, new experiences. Hell, I've even done a SL1 run or two.

Now the sequal is coming out, and all of the mystery, the secrets, the things that initially drew me into the series, have already been told by some japanophile youtuber with too much of his hands. Sure, it'll be interesting to see things for myself, but it's less a sense of discovery, and more of a sight-seeing tour at this juncture.

I'll stay away from the guide, from the forums, the wikis, etc, when I play the game, but I shouldn't have to. I should be able to discuss the weirder aspects of the game with my pals and morons on the internet, make up idiotic theories on why Ostrava is, in fact, Solair's adopted tomboy grand daughter. There being a dictated set of commandments out there for what is and isn't right goes against everything I want from these games.

The Souls series has been community driven, first and foremost. Depending on how elaborate this guide actually turns out to be, I might not genuinely enjoy my time with the game until people start breaking the rules and start coming up with things the developers hadn't intended.

And all of this for a damn guide? It's such a blunder.

#16 Edited by bybeach (4772 posts) -

@neonie: Which, of course, is also more of an argument for not day 1.

I don't really get it either. It's not like it's an MMO. I'll wait for the PC version happily, and just not read spoilers. Problem solved.

I guess if you care about the invasion stuff it might be different.

You helped me over the hump. I cancelled my PS 3 pre-order and turned around and pre-ordered it at steam. I have Demon souls and Stick of Truth to play with.

#17 Posted by beard_of_zeus (1679 posts) -

Don't confuse excitement with the fear of missing out.

#18 Posted by yesac2004 (115 posts) -

@neonie said:

I want exactly the opposite of what you're saying. When I go to play this game I want full wiki, guides, item locations, all of it. If I have a weapon and armor I know I want to use for most of the game then I want to make a bee line for those items. I don't want to wander this game in the dark but in the light. I don't think it's a richer experience to discover stuff in and not be told it, if that's what I wanted I would go run around in the woods without a compass.

And that's exactly why I don't buy into the whole "day one is the only way to play, gotta play with the community" shtick. Go forth minions, and collect for me all of the information I can hold :P

I couldn't agree with you more, this is why I am still just now slowly working through my first Dark Souls play through so I won't approach 2 for a long while......

.....Until the reviews/Quick Look tell me screw it and jump right in.

#19 Edited by Hayt (276 posts) -

@zacagawea: That's a valid point, but offline zeitgeist isn't tied to a date. If all my friends buy the game 3 months after release and we share our discoveries between ourselves that's not going to be any less great than had we all bought the game day one.

#20 Edited by Zeik (2342 posts) -

@do_the_manta_ray: Dude, what are you talking about? Dark Souls had a guide too, and we got Demon's Souls well after Japan had figured most of it out. I'm not sure what makes you think ENB working on the guide is going to spoil every detail about the game. Especially lore. The guide might touch on it, but the purpose of a strategy guide is not to go in-depth on things like lore. Are you worried that because he makes lore videos he's going to have like 30 videos at launch explaining every detail about the game before anyone else has played it? Trust me, that's not going to happen, unless DkS2 is the most blatantly straightforward game in existence. It took the community years piece together all the lore in the last game, and it wasn't just ENB.

Besides, much of the lore people like ENB came up with are just theories. There's no way they're going to let him add any lore to an official guide if it's not backed completely by the game's story. Pretty much anything that is not blatantly spelled out does not belong in a strategy guide.

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#21 Posted by freakin9 (1111 posts) -

I dunno, after 2 games it shouldn't come as a shock to people a lot of what will be in the game. I'm sure there will be a LOT of riffing on things they've already done.

#22 Edited by golguin (3868 posts) -

@hayt said:

Many people, GB staffers included, are saying "Day 1 is day 1" and that valuable because of the community working stuff out together. The game launches with a strategy guide though. That means, on day 0, the answers are there, for anyone that wants them. So at the point when it's "time to work something out" there is a guide. The obvious solution is to say "Well don't look at the guide" but you can't people who have read it stay out of threads, so the best bet would be to avoid discussion of the game in-case people with the playbook are in there saying "nah man, you just need to destroy the crystal behind him" or "world tendency works like this".

At this point what value does day 1 have? Exploring stuff would be richer if you didn't involve yourself in the communities because they will hold all the answers from a very early point in time. I just don't foresee it being some Fez-like labour but instead more a wiki by forum post. Even if the strategy guide is bunk people will have that wiki filling out in 48 hours and those people will also by contributing to the community talk, which wouldn't be a thing of discovery together more than the guy that's 2 bosses ahead of you telling you enemy weaknesses and where traps are,

I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cereal but I just don't see how this could be a big deal. In fact I think playing it away from the fount-of-all-answers that is the internet would be a richer experience if like me you want to discover stuff, not be told it.

I don't know how comprehensive the guide is going to be (ENB is working on it so it may be pretty in depth), but do you know how long it took for people to truly understand the Dark Souls combat system and the world? There are so many tiny things that it's hard to imagine it's all going to be in the guide. ENB may hold back some information or maybe he isn't aware of some of the nitty gritty stuff.

Essentially your original premise is off. On day 0 the answers are not simply going to be there for every question you have. You might be able to find out where X boss is located or how to get X item, but basic PVP matchups with stats, weapons, spells, and equipment can only be discovered by fighting it out. You won't know how things work until you try them out.

#23 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5353 posts) -

I do think it's pretty stupid that people are talking about the game before it is even officially out yet; that shit's just annoying. As for there being a guide: every fairly large game ever has discoveries based on dissemination from guides. In Dark Souls it's more interesting while everyone doesn't have the information from the guide because they'll approach things differently, go to different areas, and use different methods of their own ingenuity rather than over-reliance on the internet; but that'll only last for a few weeks.

#24 Posted by golguin (3868 posts) -

Speaking of nitty gritty stuff in Dark Souls was it ever written in an official guide or any official source that DEX gave a very slight increase to the pyromancy cast time and that there were more rolling speeds than the basic Fat, medium, fast, and flip? For those that don't know what I'm talking about check out the videos.

#25 Posted by Sterling (2144 posts) -

Well I was enjoying this nice bowl of fruit loops until you pulled out you dick and pissed in it. Thanks.

#26 Posted by Carryboy (640 posts) -

@neonie: Im totally with you on that, which is why Im going to wait till later in the year to play this, also feels like a game I should be playing in the cold and summer is starting to show up here.

#27 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5373 posts) -

I don't know, I think it's fine to wait. I had a ton of fun with Dark Souls and that was way after release. I'm sure there is something lost not getting in at launch, but your experience's not going to be worse if you don't. Spoilers on the Internet abound for any piece of media anyway. It's just something you have to deal with.

#28 Posted by pyrodactyl (1962 posts) -

There was a strategy guide for dark souls too and that didn't change anything about the day 1 zeitgeist.

#29 Edited by masterpaperlink (1836 posts) -

I have no desire to hear other peoples opinions/thoughts on the game till I complete it, and by then id prefer if people had answers for any questions I may have

#30 Posted by Lyisa (340 posts) -

I'm siding on waiting a month and a half for it on PC than playing on console.

I don't blame people for wanting to be apart of those early days, but it doesn't seem like it will be valuable for me personally to be there. I don't share my experience with other people on the internet, and I don't care what the have discovered about games until after I've done my first playthrough. The people who I do like to share my experiences with won't play it until long after release (probably in a year) so I could wait up until that time aside from personal curiousity, and a willingness to buy it on pc launch.

If there wasn't a release date for the pc version I probably would have just gotten it on console, though.

#31 Edited by 8Bit_Archer (452 posts) -

@neonie said:

I want exactly the opposite of what you're saying. When I go to play this game I want full wiki, guides, item locations, all of it. If I have a weapon and armor I know I want to use for most of the game then I want to make a bee line for those items. I don't want to wander this game in the dark but in the light. I don't think it's a richer experience to discover stuff in and not be told it, if that's what I wanted I would go run around in the woods without a compass.

And that's exactly why I don't buy into the whole "day one is the only way to play, gotta play with the community" shtick. Go forth minions, and collect for me all of the information I can hold :P

I feel the same way I have two kids and a wife I don't have time to beat my head against riddles anymore that is. The challenge of pulling stuff off is enough of a draw for me. I wish I was 16 again and had nothing to do but game, however unfortunately I'm not and have other responsibilities. This game 10-15 years ago would have been the only game I needed.

On top of that just got a new PC. So Ill be waiting.
#32 Edited by noizy (660 posts) -

@beard_of_zeus said:

Don't confuse excitement with the fear of missing out.

Yea. Which is probably why the OP finds it odd that the bombcrew is making the "day 1 discovery" argument. That said, they are in the middle of the game industry, so I'm sure they can't escape the chatter and spoilers like some of us can by not looking things up and ignoring the zeitgeist; it's their job to be in the middle of it.

#33 Posted by beard_of_zeus (1679 posts) -

@noizy said:

@beard_of_zeus said:

Don't confuse excitement with the fear of missing out.

Yea. Which is probably why the OP finds it odd that the bombcrew is making the "day 1 discovery" argument. That said, they are in the middle of the game industry, so I'm sure they can't escape the chatter and spoilers like some of us can by not looking things up and ignoring the zeitgeist; it's their job to be in the middle of it.

I don't disagree with the last part of it, you are right that it is the staff's job to provide game coverage, so they gotta be there when these hot video games drop. But for the rest of us, and even for other things in life I think my wisdom stands. For example, people yelling at me to watch True Detective ("what, you haven't seen it?!?!?!?!")

#34 Posted by Itwastuesday (956 posts) -

Day 1 discovery zeitgeist for a game so many people are interested in is even a little inaccurate. I'd call it closer to the day -2 discovery zeitgeist.

#35 Posted by ViciousBearMauling (993 posts) -

@golguin said:

Speaking of nitty gritty stuff in Dark Souls was it ever written in an official guide or any official source that DEX gave a very slight increase to the pyromancy cast time and that there were more rolling speeds than the basic Fat, medium, fast, and flip? For those that don't know what I'm talking about check out the videos.

This is exactly why people are hyped about playing it on day 1 with everyone else. Strategy Guides don't manage to cover the crazy ass shit that a rabid community can find out.

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#36 Posted by MasterRain (313 posts) -

The zeitgeist does exist, even if not for you. If a lot of your friends play videogames, they are likely to want to play them asap. As they are playing them they will be talking, and saying WOAH did you see _____. If given the choice to play it now or in a month, you're gonna play it now. Also for me personally my PC is garbage, so 360 version it is.

#37 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

Zeitgeist is something in the air. A feeling. Real or imaginary. Does it really matter? If you feel it, it does. It's kinda like love in that way. Utterly foolish and crazy to everyone except those feeling it.

Hater!

#38 Edited by TwoLines (2793 posts) -

Eh, I couldn't give a fuck. I kinda started to when the GB guys were all like "Oh man, you HAVE to get this day one!" But then I remembered I never, ever cared about this sort of thing.

I still would like to play it now, but I can wait.

#39 Posted by Deathpooky (1385 posts) -

@noizy said:

@beard_of_zeus said:

Don't confuse excitement with the fear of missing out.

Yea. Which is probably why the OP finds it odd that the bombcrew is making the "day 1 discovery" argument. That said, they are in the middle of the game industry, so I'm sure they can't escape the chatter and spoilers like some of us can by not looking things up and ignoring the zeitgeist; it's their job to be in the middle of it.

I found it odd coming from Brad given that in both Souls games so far he's been much more "I don't want to miss any content" than "I want to discover the game." If you're playing through with the zeitgeist you're going to inevitably miss out on NPC encounters and stories, items and weapons only obtainable through certain time-limited ways, or maybe even entire areas. I imagine almost no-one in their first blind playthrough saw the full stories for people like Solaire.

#40 Edited by gerrid (314 posts) -

It'll be different this time out because so many more people are interested in it, so the volume of information is enough to drown in.

Look back at these forums in 2011 when DS was released and see the difference. The original Dark Souls guide also had some misinformation and a very limited run, so there wasn't hundreds of posts from people who had read through it.

It was mostly sharing weapons and builds, hints and tips (the sliding shortcut in the Depths comes to mind), and stories of boss encounters (good old Capra). It was fun to share these things and feel like, as part of a small community, you might be the first person to find something.

Of course the game had already been out in Japan, so a lot of what you discovered was already written out in detail elsewhere, but it was inaccessible. So much of the information was whispered hints and so on. It made it more exciting, the unknown quantity of everything, fed into the lore.

But like I say, this time there is a concerted effort to share and catalogue and optimise, with many more people involved. Whatever you find or discover, there will be someone who got it early from a shop and replies to you about how they found that already and what it does and how you did it wrong.

But one thing that will benefit you going in on day 1 is the multiplayer. The longer you wait, the more optimised invaders will become, and the less messy and fresh and unpredictable it will feel. Better to be out there with everyone else forging ahead in the darkness, than to come later when everyone is waiting for you.

#41 Posted by Corvak (975 posts) -

As long as north america keeps getting releases in the middle of the work week, I won't really jump into the whole "Day one" thing.

As far as multiplayer, i'll just play as it is when I get the game, and probably avoid guides. If constant invasions by minmaxed players are enough of a problem that I can't progress through the game, the network cord comes out - call me a coward, call me a wuss, whatever. I guess I am those things.

#42 Edited by tourgen (4461 posts) -

Plenty of people are waiting for the PC release and will all be playing it for the first time next month. It'll be like a second wave. Most of the people I know personally anyway, which is what really matters.

#43 Edited by shinjin977 (754 posts) -

You're ignoring the non-internet part of the zeitgeist

#44 Posted by plaintomato (598 posts) -

@sooty said:

Being there on day 1 has no value at all...

There's plenty of value. Information is harder to find, less consistent, confused by misinterpretation, and surrounded by misinformation. But whatever, you can play the game blind anytime.

More importantly, in a month or so, the game will be saturated with experienced players. As white phantoms, they will be able to walk you through the levels too easily. As invaders, they will be more highly optimized, better geared, and have superior tactical knowledge. Since the game is designed for player interaction, if you play off-line you are missing a key part of the experience, so playing offline isn't an acceptable solution to the problem of a quickly maturing player base.

Before then, you get to enjoy the mass of community confusion, experimentation, and developing characters. That opportunity has a very limited shelf life. Take it or leave it as you like. BTW, many who will be playing on PC will be buying on PS3/360 first and then buying again on PC...so while Day 1 on PC will afford the same hysteria to a degree, there will still be a lot of experts running around on PC Day 1.

#45 Edited by noizy (660 posts) -

@deathpooky: Right. It's possible, he's wanting to have an other experience this time around and do the self-discovery. I think Patrick might want to do the same; which is why no one committed to doing any live streams of Dark Souls II. They've had DS1 "spoiled", maybe they want to do the Day 1 thing, at least for a while.

#46 Posted by gaminghooligan (1434 posts) -

I just played dark souls on the PC over the summer. I only occasionally used walkthroughs and asked for weapon advice on this forum once. I felt like I had a pretty pure experience with it.

#47 Posted by SlashDance (1812 posts) -

I understand the appeal, but if I have to chose between the "zeitgeist" and 1080p/60hz, I'm fine with waiting a while.

If the PC version was months and months away I suppose it would be a harder decision to make, but 6 weeks is not a very long time to have to wait.

#48 Edited by Deathpooky (1385 posts) -

@noizy: Yeah, it's going to be interesting seeing Patrick and Brad's experience with the game without assistance. Vinny had that, but the others used a fair amount of chat guidance to figure out where to go and what to do. Dark Souls is still a hard, great game even if you're playing through with a significant amount of help, but it's very different playing through blind.

#49 Posted by noizy (660 posts) -

@deathpooky: Yea. Patrick cleared Dark Souls rather fast. The chat guidance is huge in my opinion. Those tips of where to go and various secrets makes a big difference. His Stream profile says 56h, of course that doesn't mean much as it's just the game running time. But if I compare it to mine, I have 105h on record and still haven't cleared the game. I check the wikis a little, but not too much, and I've re-started a new character after discussing with a friend about my build, and have streamlined my points better.

If they do indeed chose to discover the game by themselves, then we likely won't see them stream the game.

#50 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3189 posts) -

I always play these games without any external aid.

Don't give a fuuuuck about min/maxing this or that item, optimal whatever, getting all the items.

Funny enough I also don't care about beating the game.

Hm.

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