Explain why physical media & "digital future" can't coexist.

Seriously, please, because I'm going out of my mind.

I've seen numerous comments in the wake of Microsoft axing their DRM plans for the Xbox One about how those dirty "whiners" messed up "the digital future" for everyone, somehow, and I don't understand what is mutually exclusive about the existence of physical media sales as they exist today, and being able to buy and trade your digital products.

What really infuriates me about it is the underlying implication that everyone that doesn't want to buy all of their media digitally has to be forced into this new way of life against their will because... why, again?

If someone wants to consume their media digitally.. they are able to do so. Sony has been spearheading day one digital for years, Nintendo has even been doing good work on that front, particularly with the 3DS, and Microsoft is trying to emphasize more of that. It makes sense, and I'm glad to new new and more convenient options opening up for people. What I don't get, though, is why we can only have one or the other, and why certain people seem to react so angrily at the idea of people wanting to purchase physical products in a free and unrestricted fashion.

Microsoft scuttled their plans for digital sharing for a later date, getting all hands on deck to un-fuck their system, which is understandable, but nothing about the existence of unrestricted physical media impedes the creation of some sort of sharing scheme for digital products down the road.

225 million physical CDs were sold in 2011, and over 210 million last year, and the music industry seems to be hanging in there just fine. Nothing about the existence of free physical media impeded the existence of iTunes or any other of the dime-a-dozen digital music platforms these days, and nothing continues to do so. Those two markets peacefully co-exist, serving the different audiences to their tastes. There is no, or at least there should be no, forced one-size-fits-all solution for people who like the freedom and sense of ownership that comes form physical products.

The ability to consume all or most of your media digitally is pretty much here already, if not coming very soon. Digital sales are rising, and that's cool.. but DRM schemes to fuck over the existing customers of physical products? Why is that necessary? This is what I have to know, because I'm going out of my mind trying to make sense of the complaints against the usual "entitled whiners."

Also, fuck the "topic character limit" bullshit. 60 characters, really?

Yeah, the argument is starting to sound very contrived now isn't it? Almost like some of them have another agenda.

Now that all games on PS4 and Xbox One will be on their digital stores there should be no more complaining from people who want an all digital future but I fully expect people to say "prices would be cheaper if there was no retail option!!" when these consoles come out.

I think the opposition to physical copies has more to do with opposition to physical retailers (read: GameStop) than anything.

I wanted Steam sales on my consoles. Now I am just gonna go to Steam.

The people you've heard that from are people who we call "People who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about but they like to bitch and moan and make up their own reasons to bitch and moan".
They're easy to ignore.. or have killed. Latter probably being the best(and most expensive) option.

Unless of course we still think it's alright for their genes to one day spread.

@marokai: What bothers me is the assertion that used game sales are intrinsically tied to the standard $60 price model that we see with most games these days. Give consumers an incentive to purchase digitally and the market will naturally trend towards a digital future. There is no need to brute force restrictive policies, that may eventually... maybe... perhaps benefit consumers so far as digital sales go.

They absolutely can co-exist and I just wrote a long ass thread about how I could see that working.

Flexibility is absolutely key here. If Microsoft realise that, instead of just throwing their hands in the air and dropping everything they worked on, they could still turn this fiasco to their advantage. They've planted the seed of digital sharing and no disc swapping as adding value, now they just need to offer them without forcing the restrictions on people. This is by no means an unsolveable problem.

The most glaring issue would be people buying the physical game and then letting their friend download that copy to their system. At least in the way that Microsoft was proposing. I believe that they can coexist and honestly where going to coexist even if Microsoft didn't change their policy. Microsoft was just really trying to change how physical media worked.

Wouldn't be possible. Each disc would've contained a unique license ID that would only be allowed for one console activation.

Yeah eventually we're gonna get there anywhere, but they have to let the market get there at its own pace. And it'll get there faster with carrot than with stick.

They don't need to coup de grace the retailers either, they're bleeding out as it is. Unless the digital price is artificially inflated, there is simply no way retail can compete with it in the long term. The price *is* artificially inflated on Steam and retailers still can't compete with it.

Did Microsoft ever even imply that there would be steam-like sales?
Why aren't there great digital sales now on the 360? You can't sell a downloaded game as it is, so where have the benefits been for the past few years? How does the presence of a disc mean they suddenly can't have sales?

This argument seems like it's based on nothing to me.

Yeah, I have NEVER gotten this argument, since the One debuted.

If you want Steam on your console, just buy digitally. Sure, they wound have amazing sales, but there was absolutely NO guarantee that would have happened if this whole thing had gone through anyway. Heck, do you remember how the specifically built in a used-game market by letting you sell your game to gamestop before all of this?

If I buy a PS4 (Still debating that or upgrading my PC) I'm going to buy all digitally anyway most likely, because I like the convenience of digital, and if they have sales too.... that'd be awesome.

Not Steam Like but cheap games have been very present in the past few months, Alan wake for $5 (and yes it was on sale for $1 on PC, but consoles are different that PC) no need to tweak any settings to run these games.

Also Sega Sale below has games for like $2

They do and will coexist. Look at music, people can buy one or the other or both.. I mainly buy online but if there's a deluxe album or rare not available online I buy a physical copy. Same thing with video and even books, just because one is there doesn't mean the other can't be....

The real issue is when I buy a physical copy why not make a system where I can have a digital copy along with, just like when I buy a deluxe bluray or dvd movie.... I felt that MS was going to be able to pull that off with what they originally set out to do with the ONE... Then the internet raged over something that wasn't as crystal clearly folded out for them and now nothings changed. Just like Obama Care instead of a single payer health care we end help with another private insurance plan for everyone to buy into..... but that's community progress for you :_(

@explodemode: I agree, used games do not inhibit MS or Sony's ability to roll out great sales on their digital platform, in fact it would only give users an added incentive to purchase their games digitally.

However, based on the way both have handled themselves thus far, I place far more trust in Sony when it comes to the promise of flexible pricing. While the sales on PSN aren't nearly as ridiculous as some of the steam sales we've seen over the years, they have done a much better job of not only being flexible with sales, but also in promoting their digital content and sales.

If Microsoft's plan was to cut out the used market in an effort to reduce game prices, that is all well and fine. But based on their previous business practices, I think it would be smart to take what they say with a grain of salt.

@bigjeffrey: Then that proves that good digital sales can exist alongside physical media on the Xbox, right? The argument makes even less sense to me now.

Greed. The people that sell boxed stuff refuse to change and focus on the few things they have going for them. They are big enough that they can hold the digital stuff hostage, and the companies are more than happy to keep charging boxed prices for digital stuff.

Agree totally. I buy older games digitally, and tend to get zeitgeist games packaged. I love going and picking them up, having the box, etc.

Digital games are nice, but the lack of options associated with them needs to be offset with a lower price and super easy access.

I meant if they kept physical media how it is today and also implemented some kind of DRM.

Anyone making those comments are dumb. But why will physical media (in the sense of CD's, potentially Movies, Video Games, etc) go the way of the dinosaur "eventually"?

Well that's really simple, for the same reason most business trends happen...

Money.

Simply put, you will make more money on digital distribution. The creator (as EA has shown) can try to cut the middle man out sometimes. No need to pay an employee to sell your physical media. No need to pay anyone to ship it somewhere. Getting the product from creator to consumer is simply easier, faster, and cheaper. Not to mention that but more convenient for the consumer too. You don't have to spend gas to go to a brick and mortar store. With faster and ever more common internet speeds you could theoretically download the game faster than going to even a local Gamestop, buying it, and coming back home. It is easier and faster for the same end result, only now you don't have to find somewhere to store a disc.

As long the DRM policies remain fair and consumer friendly Digital Distribution is better for all parties.

The only people who lose on Digital Distribution are the middle men retailers who represent a good part of pricing, the consumers who play the trade in game through the middle men, and the people who just constantly love to lend and trade games with friends. No offense to those people... but the Digital Distribution method can find a way around the "trading with friends" without too much problem, and those who play the trade in game are also part of the pricing problem. When you cut out the middle man a very large piece of the cost pie goes away.

@bigjeffrey: Feels a little late in the game for me to consider that a trend that will stay vs them just trying to hype people into staying on the platform because "Hey we got this new thing coming out".

I think it was on the last Bombcast or maybe in that video that they had after all this DRM reversal where the guys say they spoke to an engineer from Microsoft who said that's what they were going to do. But that you can't go out and imply it or say it, that is undercutting new releases and stuff. People know Steam has sales, but they only advertise them, the day of. They don't ever say, hey we are gonna have more sales later on. No one in retail of any form does that. As for digital sales on the 360, I don't know, but lately there have been, maybe that was a hint from MS that they were going to do that on the XOne. I do however see lots of sales for discs today, in different stores. I jump on them. Witcher 2 for 10 bucks. Haven't even opened it. But the thing about disc sales is that they don't ever compare to the sales you see in digital stores. Stores have to get back what they can for having it on their shelf. Shelf space is money to them. Why getting retailers to stock big ass guitar sets and peripherals is hard. Also, publishers and developers have control over those games that get sales. They can say, yeah, we want to do a promotion and sell if for this much. That doesn't happen with physical discs.

Physical discs go on sale because stores want to clear shelf space. Digital sales happen because devs want to sell more copies and raise awareness of a game or franchise. Also, with digital, we get those crazy, franchise or developer or publisher bundles on sale. And on the one, if I am not mistaken, you could have gifted a game, if you wanted to. But it doesn't matter anymore, we are back to how things were and another 7 or 8 years of, oh look, steam has more sales. Sure all games will be sold digitally anyway, but maybe things won't live up to their full potential. I don't see many big Vita games for super cheap.

It's not that they can't co-exist, it's that one just seems antequated when compared to the other.

Yeah sure I can subscribe to a newspaper, wait for it to arrive in the morning, find the 'world news' section and then wait another full day to get more news. Or I can just load up a webpage and get up-to the minute coverage. Sure I can write up a nice letter, buy a postage stamp and envelope, send it out and then wait a couple of days for a response. Or I can just e-mail someone and get a much quicker response.

You see where I'm going with this. Eventually the market will go towards what is simpler and more convenient. Even digital music sales are increasing.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/technology/digital_music_sales/index.htm

http://76.74.24.142/4A176523-8B2C-DA09-EA23-B811189D3A21.pdf

Oh and OP, not that I don't believe your figures, but you should probably cite your references, don't just throw out random numbers.

@marokai: They can. You're not crazy.

@vinny_says: You're exactly right. The digital future is an inevitability, and it's going to happen organically. 'Organically' being the key word.

Microsoft made the mistake of trying to force it, even though it's already happening. Also, confusing the issue even more by putting pointless DRM in front of it, which... turns out, functions the same without it.

Just having a flexible market/store front is a boon that Steam capitalized on. The way the classic supply chain works for the real world disk is constrained to a narrow band where millions of disks at $59.99 have to be sold. There are a lot of games that don't fit into this because some games are free while others are $89.99 and they don't have a place on current consoles.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but this is without doubt the most exciting thing to come out of this announcement.

We now know, exactly how flexible these systems are. For Microsoft to have been able to pull a complete about face on their policies and still ship a console with no hardware changes at all, we now have clear evidence that these approaches can and will change over time. If something comes up and we don't like it, there is absolutely no reason to just accept it and take what they want to give us. That's ca-razy for a console pre-launch. To have this many people know exactly what they're buying? It's all good. This paves the way for a natural transition, where the people paying the money (us) make the decisions about what constitutes the right time to move to an all digital marketplace.

Physical and Digital can and will continue to coexist for exactly as long as the people buying the games want them to, this is kind of the best possible outcome for us in the end. Except for the missed entertainment watching two different approaches hit the marketplace and seeing who wins.

Those fun times are over for a couple of years.

Which is ironic because without physical media I feel the price of games could actually rise. Until now what has been really the only barrier in preventing game sales from rising out the wazhoo big? Used game sales. If companies throw their prices too high people will simply buy one or two games a year and then used game sale/trade in everything to make up for the difference of price. Get rid of physical media? What is stopping Sony or Microsoft from saying fuck you, only one way to get our games, right from us and we want to charge $100 for the next Halo. Don't like it? Too bad, can't find Halo anywhere else. Consumers aren't convinced and do not trust these big companies to handle "all digital".

You know the part I like about physical games? Randomly coming across that niche game that had a small print run that you couldn't find. Being able to collect and display my collection. The odd thrill of opening up a game still in shrink wrap. Sorry, but being a collector alongside a game player I still really like physical discs. If "X" game gets pulled from a service I have no chance to buy it. With physical games that get recalled for legal reasons like X-Men destiny you can still track down and aquire. That part if games is fun too. And frankly, Ill miss it.

Steam has a dedicated and functional offline mode. Xbox One did not.

I like physical stuff .... there still a lot of uncertainty on a digital only stuff. hacking servers issues and the like can still happen. But yeah there is absolutely no reason against as to both existing.... people still have the naive picture that because if sold digitally things would be cheaper ... really then what has impeded them to do so already? Nothing , and lets be honest no company would let go of the oportunity to get the full 60 bucks for themselves if they could.

No one has a clue what they're talking about. All digital isn't happening for ages. It's actually pretty embarrassing to watch this "future is nigh" bs sometimes.

They can and will. Sony had it right from the get-go; leave physical media alone, and simultaneously offer everything digitally. Makes sense to me. People just hate Gamestop more than they actually hate physical media, but conflate the two as if they're one and the same. Digital will slowly but surely prevail as the preferred medium as the Internet infrastructure continues to improve, and people eventually find value in its convenience. That will happen, and trying to force it to happen prematurely doesn't change anything and only invites protest. These things have to just happen naturally.

As for the problems with the used game market being preserved going forward into the next gen, that's not really on us. It's not gamers' responsibility to save the struggling paradigm of the largely stagnating big budget game, with all its excesses and rehashes, by buying everything for $60.

People that complain about double standards regarding MS's previous DRM policy and Steam, need to realize that the Xbox One was _nothing_ like Steam. You could take your game library with you, that was pretty much it. Steam is light years ahead of whatever MS and Sony seems to have planned. They should definitely not put all their eggs in one basket when they clearly don't understand how to move over to all digital.

this.

also glad to see this thread

I think they can coexist, and hope they do.

I like owning my console games physically and lining them all up on a shelf. I like owning most of my PC games digitally and having a massive and inexpensive digital library. What I don't like is the idea that the consumer doesn't own the game anymore, especially within the digital market. When we were all buying carts, it couldn't be said that games were a service rather than a product... you bought a product, and save for the cruel decay of time, can still use that product 15-20 years later. Maybe thousands of dollars invested in a console and games library doesn't sound like a lot to some people, but I think it's a pretty significant investment that shouldn't be in danger of disappearing when servers get taken down.

They can. It's just people thinking that they have to be mutually exclusive, like they're married to the damn idea. Ultimately it should be about giving the consumer choice and not requiring them to jump through a series of flaming hoops like some circus animal. You cannot and should not force progress. It has to happen. Digital media is the future, once the niggles about the infrastructure of the internet, bandwidth caps, pricing, and the legal ramifications of ownership are ironed out. But you cannot just prematurely go, "This is the way it is. LOL. Deal with it."

And even then physical media will not just vanish because of the ability to get things digitally. iTunes launched over 12 years ago. 12. Yet last year there was still 210 million CD sales. As long as there's a market companies will try to fill it and the market isn't going away any time soon.

The problem is that "disc swapping" isn't this huge bugbear to any but the laziest of people ever. Seriously, this isn't the ship from Wall-E. Blu-Ray has all but eliminated the need for multi-disc games. You only need to switch discs when you don't want to play the game that's currently in. The "wear and tear" argument is also moot as both these systems will have the ability to install to the hard drive, even with the disc in-tray as an authentication mechanism. I know that's how I play all MY X360 games.

Microsoft needed to force it because they were otherwise going to have to explain how this wasn't just a solution looking for a problem.

@marokai: you make a very good point. Its like if when the car was invented. Everybody started screaming "Cars are the future, horses are just holding us back. We must burn and rid ourselves of horses!"

"antequated" does not apply yet. Not when last of us is 25gb and there are people in Canada that have download capacities of 30gb. And they pay good money for that service (those poor suckers). So how is a media format that does not cut more then 80% of your download cap per month antequated? And I cant beat Last of us because i might go over my cap and be charged a crazy amount. This renders the "play while you download" feature useless as well. Canada is a fully developed country. And I am sure there are many other countries where things like this can happen. My friend who has a 60gb cap has to go to our university to download his steam games that he paid for because he can't do it at home.

Antequated would mean that the Disc format is out done by the digital system in every way. But that is not be the case. People like my friend are not poor, they are not technologically ignorant, and they are willing to pay for and play the games. But they will stop if it inconveniences them like this. This kind of thing could lead to another Crash.

Because OBAMA and the LIBERALS!!!!

...........wait what?

Off topic: I want cartridges to make a comeback! Seriously. Flash memory is cheaper than ever, and its access speed beats the snot out of any disks. Plus, publishers could make part of the memory writable, so saves, patches and DLC could be stuck right on the cartridge. Maybe then games would actually be worth $60 again.

Flash memory being cheaper then ever still doesn't mean they are cheap enough to put into cartridges. Just on a consumer level a 20 pack of blank blu ray discs might cost you $20 ($1 per blu-ray) while a single 32 gig flash card might also cost you $20. Now naturally that's a consumer price and it would cost the manufacturers much less, but I'm willing to bet the 20 to 1 ratio is probably close to the same.

because eventually kids nowadays and in the future are going to look at these outdated plastic discs and question why they exist

it already happened with music, and now it's happening with movies.

Physical media does hinder digital media in the video games if you want Steam like sales. Unless it is a Valve game, Valve does not set the price of those sales on Steam. The publishers choose whether the game goes on sale and for what discount. And since the publishers sell far more physical console versions (80+%) of their games they can not upset retailers. If a publisher has set an MSRP of $59.99 then a digital version has to be that price, if they undercut that price on consoles (retailers don't care about PC) than the retailer simply won't buy supply to stock the game.

For example, if Rockstar and Take2 were to announce that GTA5 was a $49.99 digital download but a $59.99 physical product stores like GameStop would purchase 2 million copies instead of 5 million from Take 2. Effectively starving the publisher of revenue. As a result no publisher is willing to risk this so every digital version of console games have to be the MSRP.

What Microsoft planned for was a digital future, they did this by making digital = physical in all accounts. I did not agree with their policies but I see why they had them. Microsoft's flaw was thinking we were ready for an all digital console and most people simply are not.

Real talk: It kinda is.

I think people are assuming they'll get steam style sales once discs go away, or maybe that it will reduce the cost of games/systems overall. That would all be awesome, but I seriously doubt it. If that's what they have in mind, they sure fooled me with the prices of older games on the xbox live marketplace. You can buy those games used on amazon or on steam for a fraction of the cost.

Also won't you be able to buy every game day one digitally anyways?

I like the option to have both. While I do see more digital for people in the future I think physical media can be great to have. Digital games I'll usually get if it's cheap or if it's something I really want. Like when Far Cry 3 came out I picked up the PC version. For console I usually like the physical copy but do make digital purchases on occasion. What I'm considering is digital versions of FPS multiplayer games since those see less action after a sequel comes out and I wouldn't mind less clutter on my game collection as time goes on.