I can't believe what the senate is trying to pull.

Honestly I've supported all of the health care reform options up to this point. I was enthusiastic about single payer and when they compromised for the public option I was reluctant but eventually realized that it would allow the government to negotiate with health providers to lower prices. Now it's just ridiculous. The current proposal that they want to move forward with is utterly stripped of reform and replaced with a love letter to insurance companies. It would force people over a certain income to buy health insurance or else pay a significant fine to the government! It would also allocate 400 billion dollars to pay for the health insurance of people who can't afford it. This might work if only there was a way for the government to force insurance companies to reduce premiums but this bill does exactly the opposite it actually explicitly authorizes health insurance companies to charge up to 4 times more for health insurance based on age and health condition. I guess I shouldn't be surprised I mean senators never expect to not get reelected so their only motivation is the fat checks they receive from insurance companies. My only hope is that Obama can swallow his pride and veto the bill and not cave in to the temptation to declare victory on health reform especially when he would be signing such a horrible freedom crushing bill.

Is Max Baucus involved?

" As frustrating as this diplomatic pussyfooting and cowardess is, don't allow your anger at the current weakness of the dems turn you to voting for a much more organized and uniform party that will confidently lock in step and without divide make things worse. "

The problem is that no one will ever come to an agreement on what the real "best option" is, so they're making all sorts of compromises to make sure this thing gets passed before the Christmas recess (not going to happen). It's a stupid move, and while I'm not exactly sure what to tell them when it comes to what option I think would be best, I do know that whatever they come up with must be carefully deliberated upon and not rushed just for the sake of getting it out there as soon as possible, since this will affect many, many generations of people in the US.
 
All I know is that a better plan for health care is needed, because both private insurers and the government plans already in place fail so horribly. The government has been literally stealing money from everyone for social security benefits we (meaning, the younger generations) will never see.

It appears that history is repeating itself.  Health care reform bombed spectacularly when Clinton was in office, and unless something changes, it may just bomb again (with a Clinton in a high cabinet position, no less).
 
And I don't say this to be crass.  I want health care reform.  I have several friends whose lives would improve greatly if the health care system were better.  Throwing a hasty bill with an absurd price tag is not going to solve the problem, though.

There are too many issues at play here affecting not just healthcare reform, but policymaking in general in the US that are driving us into the ground. Both parties have become so polarized that they are basically stonewalling each other on every topic they can. Personally I think there is also a bit of resentment on the Republican party regarding their spectacular loss during the last election.  
 
The political atmosphere in the US though on the whole is at a self-destrictive phase.  Simply nothing is getting accomplished on any end and I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future.  
 
1. Most Americans are too stupid to realize that the current socio and economic climate right now can't realistically be fixed in a couple of years. Even if some of the ideas out there now could fix the situation, the Republican brick wall is not helping the situation.  
 
2.  The Republican party is fragmenting much the way we see the country fragmenting, that is along neo-conservative christians and basically "everyone else". They are an extremely vocal and wealthy minority that is guiding a very large sector of political discourse.  
 
3. THe problem is money. No one knows really how much anything is going to cost and there is a fear of not understanding how that money is going to be spent. If you look at the billions spent on the wars america has fought, you would think healthcare would be a breaze, but that perspective isn't usually discussed and if it is it is overly justified, usually.  

This is what happens when people refuse to elect Ron Paul as President...

" This is what happens when people refuse to elect Ron Paul as President... "

dang that sucks for people who can barely pay for things. i have never heard of this. i hope it doesn't happen because of how the economy is right now.

Back to the drawing board. Man, It's so easy for republicans to use super majorities, but when those damn free thinking democrats get 60 they can't do a thing with it.

As it stands, we'll all be forced to buy into private healthcare and be penalized. That's the brilliant fucking gem of bipartisan agreement we get, nobody seems to think forcing people to buy into something during a recession is a bad idea.

Well that is what you get for being a Visari loyalist!

The way the Obama administration has been acting behind the scenes, this supposed 'pragmatic compromise' that serves the insurance industry at the expense of promises made and popular support seems to be exactly what the administration wanted from the beginning. 

" It appears that history is repeating itself.  Health care reform bombed spectacularly when Clinton was in office, and unless something changes, it may just bomb again (with a Clinton in a high cabinet position, no less).  And I don't say this to be crass.  I want health care reform.  I have several friends whose lives would improve greatly if the health care system were better.  Throwing a hasty bill with an absurd price tag is not going to solve the problem, though. "

" It appears that history is repeating itself.  Health care reform bombed spectacularly when Clinton was in office, and unless something changes, it may just bomb again (with a Clinton in a high cabinet position, no less).  And I don't say this to be crass.  I want health care reform.  I have several friends whose lives would improve greatly if the health care system were better.  Throwing a hasty bill with an absurd price tag is not going to solve the problem, though. "

I saw the thread name and thought this was about Star Wars

" I saw the thread name and thought this was about Star Wars "

Yeah because the US is totally a nation of the free...

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Healthcare in America was always a no go.  
 
Decades and decades of insidious anti 'socialist" propaganda funded by the "healthcare" system otherwise known as the healthcare insurance dictatorship of America, has seen to that. The huge sums of money lining so many members of the senate's pockets is obscene and no wonder the whole matter is destined to fail. At least Obama seems to have tried. Unfortunately the President of america has less power over his country than the insurance companies that make life and death decisions over millions of American lives. 

" If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress? "

" As frustrating as this diplomatic pussyfooting and cowardess is, don't allow your anger at the current weakness of the dems turn you to voting for a much more organized and uniform party that will confidently lock in step and without divide make things worse. "

Nader 2012

The US is the richest and most powerful country in the world yet it cannot look after it's people, or it's people are not doing enough to look after themselves. The worlds best health care systems are in government control: France is the best in the world. People have no control over the private sector but they do have at least some control over the public sector; the private health care in the US is tyrannical and greedy, they have proven that they care more (like all other "big businesses") about profits than people's lives. It's atrocious when you take into consideration how rich the US is (surely the richest country in the world would have the healthiest people). 
 
 

At least 15% of the population is completely uninsured, and a substantial additional portion of the population is "underinsured", or less than fully insured for medical costs they might incur. More money per person is spent on health care in the United States than in any other nation in the world, and a greater percentage of total income in the nation is spent on health care in the U.S. than in any United Nations member state except for East Timor. Medical debt is the principal cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States.

Active debate about health care reform in the United States concerns questions of a right to health care, access, fairness, efficiency, cost, and quality. Many have argued that the system does not deliver equivalent value for the money spent. The US pays twice as much yet lags behind other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy. Currently the U.S. has a higher infant mortality rate than most of the world's industrialized nations. The USA's life expectancy lags 42nd in the world, after most rich nations, lagging last of the G5 (Japan, France, Germany, UK, USA) and just after Chile (35th) and Cuba (37th). The USA's life expectancy is ranked 50th in the world after the European Union (40th). The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study). A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance). The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance. More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year.

 
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

I don't wanna get all ranty but... 
 
The main opposition to health care reform are Republicans, right? And most, if not all are either Christians or Catholics, right? What really chaps my ass about this is that the answer to these people seems pretty cut and dry... What would Jesus do? I am a atheist, so I could give a fuck less about Jesus, HOWEVER, if the same Christ that these Republicans CLAIM to believe in and worship were here today, he would be a HUGE supporter of single payer health care! I think of it this way... if Christ ran a hospital, and someone came into the ER, bleeding and dying, with no health insurance, would Christ turn them away? Would Christ treat them, but then hit them with a bill so overwhelmingly huge that the entire family would be financially FUCKED their entire lives? I doubt it. Jesus would be all about fixing peeps up and sending them on their way, with all that Jesus love.  
 
This is one of my biggest gripes with religion in the first place... complete and total hypocrisy. So many of the people that claim to be religious live the most sinful lives around! Every greedy as fuck asshole CEO that claims to be a man or woman of god is a liar, hypocrite, and a glutton. I suppose though it's easy to sin over and over again when you know that if you just ask for forgiveness you will be absolved and still go to heaven. I find comfort in the words of Dee Snider... "If there's any justice in the universe, he'll be shoveling shit in hell".  

" I don't wanna get all ranty but...  The main opposition to health care reform are Republicans, right? And most, if not all are either Christians or Catholics, right? What really chaps my ass about this is that the answer to these people seems pretty cut and dry... What would Jesus do? I am a atheist, so I could give a fuck less about Jesus, HOWEVER, if the same Christ that these Republicans CLAIM to believe in and worship were here today, he would be a HUGE supporter of single payer health care! I think of it this way... if Christ ran a hospital, and someone came into the ER, bleeding and dying, with no health insurance, would Christ turn them away? Would Christ treat them, but then hit them with a bill so overwhelmingly huge that the entire family would be financially FUCKED their entire lives? I doubt it. Jesus would be all about fixing peeps up and sending them on their way, with all that Jesus love.   This is one of my biggest gripes with religion in the first place... complete and total hypocrisy. So many of the people that claim to be religious live the most sinful lives around! Every greedy as fuck asshole CEO that claims to be a man or woman of god is a liar, hypocrite, and a glutton. I suppose though it's easy to sin over and over again when you know that if you just ask for forgiveness you will be absolved and still go to heaven. I find comfort in the words of Dee Snider... "If there's any justice in the universe, he'll be shoveling shit in hell".   "

" People have no control over the private sector but they do have at least some control over the public sector;"
 

What was Obama's position on healthcare during the election?

" This is what happens when people refuse to elect Ron Paul as President... "

" What was Obama's position on healthcare during the election? "

" @Hailinel said:

" It appears that history is repeating itself.  Health care reform bombed spectacularly when Clinton was in office, and unless something changes, it may just bomb again (with a Clinton in a high cabinet position, no less).  And I don't say this to be crass.  I want health care reform.  I have several friends whose lives would improve greatly if the health care system were better.  Throwing a hasty bill with an absurd price tag is not going to solve the problem, though. "

 So what you're saying is that universal healthcare in the united states is destined to be a...   ... Giant Bomb? "

" @Amorfati said:

" People have no control over the private sector but they do have at least some control over the public sector;"
 

sweet jesus......   how do some of you people make it through the day with that amount of intelligence.... "

"no.....just no   jesus wants us to help others which is not the same as jesus wants the government to use force and steal our money and redistribute it to the less fortunate.  "

This is why I don't think libertarianism can ever work.  Not only do you need to convince the people to vote for only the most minimal of government (which will often be against their interest for whatever reason), you have to convince the government to stop taking money from big corporations then making laws to reward said corporations.

its the conservative democrats that is the cause of these weak ass compromise i just pray obama has the will to veto this bs and not just pass some bill for the sake of getting something passed

This whole thing is a fucking disaster.  All this HOPE and CHANGE bullshit that everyone bought into (myself included) seems to be fading pretty fucking quickly as we see that Obama and the democrats have no desire, willpower or balls to do anything meaningful.  They are bending over for fucking JOE LIEBERMAN for crying out loud.  Talk about a pussy move, jesus christ.     Howard Dean seems to be the only democrat with the balls to get anything done, too bad he no longer has any power to do it.  

  There is only one party in America now, Corporatists. 

" @TerraDelu said:

" I don't wanna get all ranty but...  The main opposition to health care reform are Republicans, right? And most, if not all are either Christians or Catholics, right? What really chaps my ass about this is that the answer to these people seems pretty cut and dry... What would Jesus do? I am a atheist, so I could give a fuck less about Jesus, HOWEVER, if the same Christ that these Republicans CLAIM to believe in and worship were here today, he would be a HUGE supporter of single payer health care! I think of it this way... if Christ ran a hospital, and someone came into the ER, bleeding and dying, with no health insurance, would Christ turn them away? Would Christ treat them, but then hit them with a bill so overwhelmingly huge that the entire family would be financially FUCKED their entire lives? I doubt it. Jesus would be all about fixing peeps up and sending them on their way, with all that Jesus love.   This is one of my biggest gripes with religion in the first place... complete and total hypocrisy. So many of the people that claim to be religious live the most sinful lives around! Every greedy as fuck asshole CEO that claims to be a man or woman of god is a liar, hypocrite, and a glutton. I suppose though it's easy to sin over and over again when you know that if you just ask for forgiveness you will be absolved and still go to heaven. I find comfort in the words of Dee Snider... "If there's any justice in the universe, he'll be shoveling shit in hell".   "

no.....just no   jesus wants us to help others which is not the same as jesus wants the government to use force and steal our money and redistribute it to the less fortunate.  "

" @Amorfati said:

" People have no control over the private sector but they do have at least some control over the public sector;"
 

sweet jesus......   how do some of you people make it through the day with that amount of intelligence.... "

" @ryanwho said:

" As frustrating as this diplomatic pussyfooting and cowardess is, don't allow your anger at the current weakness of the dems turn you to voting for a much more organized and uniform party that will confidently lock in step and without divide make things worse. "

Pff. You're talking about politicians here. Lock in step isn't really something they do. They walk beside you until you've outlived your usefulness. "

I don't like the idea of punishing people for being born into a bad situation as opposed to people who made it into a bad situation by making bad choices. Republicans seem to think people who are poor somehow earned their way to the poor bin while people who inherited money and made safe investments are shining beacons for capitalism at work. I just don't get it. I don't get why so many of the working poor support a party that seems to think poor people don't deserve help. I also don't get why so many people in the south oppose government programs yet most people in government are from the south (military, hello). If you really believe government to be so damaging and soldiers to be so valued, I don't see how you can reconcile that one is feeding directly into the other.

As far as intelligence goes, probably better than you, as I stopped supporting misogynistic archaic institutions built around the belief that some guy got nailed to a tree, and that his paranoid schizophrenic rants really were messages from god.  Not something that 15mg of lithium would have silenced were he here today.  "