Japanese Bombers

@Video_Game_King said:

@Ravenlight:

This might be cheap, but America's not much better.

Poor form sir... truly a low blow striking me right in my national pride.

@Video_Game_King: But they do it in a really condescending manner. It's like congratulating a baby for learning his first words.

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian: So...does Strom Thurman suddenly represent the country at large? Are you arguing against yourself there?

He represented a very large part of the country until he died. He basically founded and lead the second southern segregation act for DECADES, using his political power to keep people of color at a disadvantage. And this is AFTER being an active Klansman. The fact that he only lost that power after he DIED OF OLD AGE is fuckin' gross.

I'm not saying that you should blindly judge a people by who their leader is like Halinel accused me off because the Bush example is a good one. But then, THINK ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY WERE AND STILL ARE BEHIND THE IDEALS OF GEORGE BUSH JR. It's a LOT of people.

@Bocam:

In that case, you could get revenge by swearing at newborns. That way, their first words will probably be チンチン or 糞 or やる or いく or something like that.

@Bocam said:

@Video_Game_King: But they do it in a really condescending manner. It's like congratulating a baby for learning his first words.

To be fair, that happens here too. Watching racist New Yorkers yell at OTB foreigners because they have a super thick accent is really gross.

@Mesoian: I don't wont to sound like a dummy here but did the Mayor of Tokyo RUN on a platform of racism, or does he just make crazy gaffs?

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian My office has a coffee vending machine and I live in Washington State. What are you talking about?

But does it give you cans of hot coffee? A cup, sure. But a can of hot coffee is weird. Not bad or anything, just different from what most are used to.

An asian market in Cambridge got one of those and I thought it was amazing. It's gone now though.

I miss it.

@Mesoian said:

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian: So...does Strom Thurman suddenly represent the country at large? Are you arguing against yourself there?

He represented a very large part of the country until he died. He basically founded and lead the second southern segregation act for DECADES, using his political power to keep people of color at a disadvantage. And this is AFTER being an active Klansman. The fact that he only lost that power after he DIED OF OLD AGE is fuckin' gross.

I'm not saying that you should blindly judge a people by who their leader is like Halinel accused me off because the Bush example is a good one. But then, THINK ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY WERE AND STILL ARE BEHIND THE IDEALS OF GEORGE BUSH JR. It's a LOT of people.

Except no one points at the US and says "you guys are all racist and promote segregation". His influence and power was not ubiquitous across the country, rather specific to a geographical region. And even then, while influential in the south, you'd be a fool to claim all southerners were klansmen.

@RenMcKormack said:

@Mesoian: I don't wont to sound like a dummy here but did the Mayor of Tokyo RUN on a platform of racism, or does he just make crazy gaffs?

It's a lot of crazy Gaffs but he said a lot of these things while he was running. So...

The basic trouble, and this is universal, not just in this instance, is when you run just before a period of crisis that doesn't necessarily befall you or the things you run, but you still need to care about, it makes you say a lot of fucking stupid things. He'll be rerunning next year basically on the platform that the powerplants which the japanese are struggling to manage should be kept a japanese affair and foreigners should keep their noses out of it because they'll screw it up, and that anyone under 50 has no culture and thusly knows nothing about where the country is headed. He is an old man yelling at a cloud, but he keeps getting reelected. Just like Strom Thurman, which means there are quite a few people who feel the same way.

@Mesoian said:

He is an old man yelling at a cloud, but he keeps getting reelected. Just like Strom Thurman, which means there are quite a few people who feel the same way.

How many votes is he getting? How many people are actually voting? And how is one man representative of the cultural beliefs of an entire nation? Point to language or food or economy or daily habits or anything else for greater commentary on culture. Politics, maybe, but certainly not like this. Perhaps the Japanese equivalent of Gallup polls?

Japanese culture relies on self-suficence and so does their gaming culture. This is why they don't care/get western gaming and why they ignore it. Japan is a very prideful and reliant country that stems from the early rule of Tokugawa. What we see from Japan may be weird to us yet that doesn't make it wrong. The same could be said of western culture in Japan. Each country has their weird quirks that make them different. Don't be a dick and cast it off as trash.

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian said:

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian: So...does Strom Thurman suddenly represent the country at large? Are you arguing against yourself there?

He represented a very large part of the country until he died. He basically founded and lead the second southern segregation act for DECADES, using his political power to keep people of color at a disadvantage. And this is AFTER being an active Klansman. The fact that he only lost that power after he DIED OF OLD AGE is fuckin' gross.

I'm not saying that you should blindly judge a people by who their leader is like Halinel accused me off because the Bush example is a good one. But then, THINK ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY WERE AND STILL ARE BEHIND THE IDEALS OF GEORGE BUSH JR. It's a LOT of people.

Except no one points at the US and says "you guys are all racist and promote segregation". His influence and power was not ubiquitous across the country, rather specific to a geographical region. And even then, while influential in the south, you'd be a fool to claim all southerners were klansmen.

Well now you're getting a little too micro with this. Just as you can't say that the entire country is racist because there are a few racist people, you can do the opposite and say that a group isn't racist because there are a few of them who have wavering ideals from the rest. If you were to ask me whether or not The United States is a racist country, I'd say yes, EMPHATICALLY. But at least it's a racism that's in your face, you know where it's coming from. Japan's racism stems from aincent Xenophobia, which really has very little place in their current social ecosystem. It's more annoying than insulting, but you'll never be physically or monetarily slighted (baring usual violent crime which is very low in japan).

In america, the cops give me the evil eye while I'm waiting for the bus.

I communicate daily (skype, phone, mail, nicodouga) with all kinds of Japanese people for business and entertainment, the few globe-trotting ones I know who've travelled a lot (for tv) have begun thinking that Japan is the crazy place after seeing how tame the rest of the world is, so I gotta see it for myself.

 
@Bocam said:

The one thing that every Japanese person does that pisses me off to no end, is how surprised they are when a foreigner knows Japanese.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Mesoian said:

He is an old man yelling at a cloud, but he keeps getting reelected. Just like Strom Thurman, which means there are quite a few people who feel the same way.

How many votes is he getting? How many people are actually voting? And how is one man representative of the cultural beliefs of an entire nation? Point to language or food or economy or daily habits or anything else for greater commentary on culture. Politics, maybe, but certainly not like this. Perhaps the Japanese equivalent of Gallup polls?

Look, I'm not a political mastermind and most of what I know about politics is from american politics. But he has been the Mayor of Tokyo for 13 years, spouting this nonsense all the while. Sometimes you get lucky and you squeak through. And then sometimes you get that vote every time with everyone knowing you're a racist asshole.

I think what we're all learning here today, and hopefully I'm using the right verbiage, is that generalization is fucking "badumb".

@myketuna said:

I think what we're all learning here today, and hopefully I'm using the right verbiage, is that generalization is fucking "badumb".

BaDong is probably better.

@Mesoian said:

And then sometimes you get that vote every time with everyone knowing you're a racist asshole.

And sometimes, there isn't any strong competition to threaten him. Or maybe it's systematic (although it's hard to judge from an isolated incident). It's hard to jump straight to "racism" on that one data point alone.

Doesn't Japan have like a million letters in like eighty alphabets? That's weird right?

@Video_Game_King said:

@Mesoian said:

And then sometimes you get that vote every time with everyone knowing you're a racist asshole.

And sometimes, there isn't any strong competition to threaten him. Or maybe it's systematic (although it's hard to judge from an isolated incident). It's hard to jump straight to "racism" on that one data point alone.

If you read some of the transcripts from his public speeches, it's tough to place his stances on race as "a slip".

But whatever. We're getting sidetracked here. I think another big part of this argument is that the craziness that people claim Japan is filled with is mostly shown off in forms of entertainment. Games, TV shows, Anime, Manga, Novels, Soft Novels, Visual Novels, that's where the majority of the craziness lies. And that stuff is exported and often altered for consumption for foreign nations. They're making it big and flashy and easy to notice and digest so they can sell more and more of it. It's no secret that a lot of Japanese culture is routed (some would argue mired) in consumerism, to the point where most of the Japanese entertainment industries consider their talent to be disposable. Most of Japan is just people trying to get by like anywhere else. And now that the rest of the world is getting used to that "Japanese Flash" they have to do things differently in order to keep the eyes of the world on them, especially when things are so god damn terrible everywhere. I just don't think they've figured out how to do that now that Anime and Manga are common place things around the world and america is making up it's own forms of Japanese TV shows (though they are dramatically inferior). People wanna go, "OH MAN! DID YOU SEE THAT! THAT JAPANESE STUFF MAN, IT'S SO CRAZY! WHERE CAN WE GET MORE!" and there's not a whole lot out there doing that. The fact that PSY got so popular based off that one damn song and video shows that people are looking for crazy entertainment, no matter where it comes from (and the fact that all the K-pop singers biting off that popularity are doing NOTHING is even more evidence of that).

It's why Final Fantasy still sells millions even though it's been crap for so long. It's why People still get excited about PSP versions of Y's. It's why people still think that Dragon Ball X and Super Saiyan level 5 is still a thing. They remember how it was and want more of it; new, original, crazy! It's one of the most influential things that makes Japan's culture so interesting.

It's different from what we're used to and thus it's weird. Not that hard to understand. I bet there's a lot of American things that the Japanese find weird and intriguing there's nothing necessarily disparaging about it, it's more about curiosity than anything. When I call Japan crazy I mean it with love.

No, no you got it wrong. The Japanese were the ones who were bombed.

I came in here to make a Kamikaze joke.

@laserbolts said:

Doesn't Japan have like a million letters in like eighty alphabets? That's weird right?

More like 80-ish across two, and it's more like 40, since one is essentially a caps-lock version of the other. It's a phonetic script that's mostly consistent, so it's actually stupidly easy to learn. Plus kanji is less an alphabet and more a collection of word roots or morphemes or something like that.

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian Your opinions on Final Fantasy and Ys matter to this discussion how?

Did you not read what I posted?

People were originally attracted to those games and games similar because they were so much different from what was being offered in the west. That air of "Japanese weirdness" was a big selling point that people in the States and in Europe began to clamor for. People still buy into those games because they hope that they'll have that underlying craziness that makes them adventures that they can't predict, even if the series has been going down hill, even if they're available on dead consoles.

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian Your opinions on Final Fantasy and Ys matter to this discussion how?

Did you not read what I posted?

People were originally attracted to those games and games similar because they were so much different from what was being offered in the west. That air of "Japanese weirdness" was a big selling point that people in the States and in Europe began to clamor for. People still buy into those games because they hope that they'll have that underlying craziness that makes them adventures that they can't predict, even if the series has been going down hill, even if they're available on dead consoles.

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian said:

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian: So...does Strom Thurman suddenly represent the country at large? Are you arguing against yourself there?

He represented a very large part of the country until he died. He basically founded and lead the second southern segregation act for DECADES, using his political power to keep people of color at a disadvantage. And this is AFTER being an active Klansman. The fact that he only lost that power after he DIED OF OLD AGE is fuckin' gross.

I'm not saying that you should blindly judge a people by who their leader is like Halinel accused me off because the Bush example is a good one. But then, THINK ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY WERE AND STILL ARE BEHIND THE IDEALS OF GEORGE BUSH JR. It's a LOT of people.

Except no one points at the US and says "you guys are all racist and promote segregation". His influence and power was not ubiquitous across the country, rather specific to a geographical region. And even then, while influential in the south, you'd be a fool to claim all southerners were klansmen.

I've always wondered if foreigners are aware of the geographical cultural differences amongst Americans or if they just sort of lump us all together because it's the same country (which is admittedly what I do for every foreign country.)

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian Your opinions on Final Fantasy and Ys matter to this discussion how?

Did you not read what I posted?

People were originally attracted to those games and games similar because they were so much different from what was being offered in the west. That air of "Japanese weirdness" was a big selling point that people in the States and in Europe began to clamor for. People still buy into those games because they hope that they'll have that underlying craziness that makes them adventures that they can't predict, even if the series has been going down hill, even if they're available on dead consoles.

That's not it at all. National origin had nothing to do with why I started playing Final Fantasy. I'm sure there are many others that would say the same. It's not about Japanese craziness, it's about a series I enjoyed back in the day and still enjoy now.

What, are you trolling now?

Go back and read my previous posts. I've already explained all of this already.

@Hunter5024 said:

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian said:

@Turambar said:

@Mesoian: So...does Strom Thurman suddenly represent the country at large? Are you arguing against yourself there?

He represented a very large part of the country until he died. He basically founded and lead the second southern segregation act for DECADES, using his political power to keep people of color at a disadvantage. And this is AFTER being an active Klansman. The fact that he only lost that power after he DIED OF OLD AGE is fuckin' gross.

I'm not saying that you should blindly judge a people by who their leader is like Halinel accused me off because the Bush example is a good one. But then, THINK ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY WERE AND STILL ARE BEHIND THE IDEALS OF GEORGE BUSH JR. It's a LOT of people.

Except no one points at the US and says "you guys are all racist and promote segregation". His influence and power was not ubiquitous across the country, rather specific to a geographical region. And even then, while influential in the south, you'd be a fool to claim all southerners were klansmen.

I've always wondered if foreigners are aware of the geographical cultural differences amongst Americans or if they just sort of lump us all together because it's the same country (which is admittedly what I do for every foreign country.)

I've found it depends on how educated people are. When I went to Mexico, there was a pretty common belief that everyone in the States was rich, akin to the old "the streets are paved with gold" ideals from the 30's. I never really got into any deep conversations about it in japan, but there was an ideal that americans are super aggressive. Which we sort of are.

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian It's not trolling to prof at faults in your argument.

It is when you're doing nothing but using strawman arguments to do so.

"I don't care about the nationality, I just do what I like" carries literally no weight in a thread about the preception of japan's culture and it's influence on the gaming industry. You might as well have said "WELL HALO IS JUST AS GOOD AS THOSE GAMES AND THAT'S NOT JAPANESE!"

Stay on topic.

@rebgav said:

DON'T MENTION THE WAR.

Is this what you were referring to?

...一体ここに何が起こってるのか？

@Mesoian said:

@myketuna said:

I think what we're all learning here today, and hopefully I'm using the right verbiage, is that generalization is fucking "badumb".

BaDong is probably better.

No, I was referencing the latest Bombcast, but Kung Pow works too.

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian You specifically brought up Final Fantasy with a slanted argument. I asked how it applies to the concept of cultural perception and used my own experience to argue against your point. You flipped out and keep accusing me of throwing straw men at you.

You don't know what a strawman argument is, do you?

@Mesoian said:

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian You specifically brought up Final Fantasy with a slanted argument. I asked how it applies to the concept of cultural perception and used my own experience to argue against your point. You flipped out and keep accusing me of throwing straw men at you.

You don't know what a strawman argument is, do you?

In what way did anything I say misrepresent what you said? It's one thing to call my argument a straw man. It's another to actually tell me why.

Go ahead. Try me.

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian said:

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian You specifically brought up Final Fantasy with a slanted argument. I asked how it applies to the concept of cultural perception and used my own experience to argue against your point. You flipped out and keep accusing me of throwing straw men at you.

You don't know what a strawman argument is, do you?

In what way did anything I say misrepresent what you said? It's one thing to call my argument a straw man. It's another to actually tell me why.

Go ahead. Try me.

Well let's see, rather than actually focusing on my point of how the inherent differences originating from japanese culture influences eastern games and how said differences act as a selling point for eastern games, like final fantasy or Y's, you decided to put up an argument that has nothing to do with anything saying "I PLAY THOSE GAMES BECAUSE I LIKE THEM NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE FROM JAPAN" which completely circumvents the actual conversation. You want to start a side argument who's crux is that not being aware of the origin of said games makes some sort of difference, when in actuality the fact that you keep returning to those series only proves my point that those games and games like them are popular due to the unique flavour they recieve from their cultural background. You are creating a Y argument which you would like me to attack so you can get away from the argument X which everyone has been discussing except you so you can try to assert that your Y opinion somehow trumps the collective argument X. That is the very defiinition of a strawman argument.

I say again. Stay on topic. It's fine that you still like Final Fantasy or Y's. I was using them as positives in my argument. You somehow missed that and decided to get offended by my saying that Final Fantasy is in decline and for some reason decided to use that to assume my implication that Y's is doing the same when I was asserting it's worth to it's fans, even though it's primarily been available on a system that most people consider to be dead.

But no, you're contributing a lot to this conversation. Do go on.

And I thought the thread sucked when I was in the conversation.

@Hailinel said:

@Mesoian It would have been easier for you to explain this in the first place. But you misinterpreted my point badly, which is that to some people, the cultural differences that led to those games are irrelevant. They do have an influence on these games, of course, but it ultimately doesn't matter where specifically they're from. People didn't necessarily like Banjo-Kazooie because it was British, or the Rabbids games because they're French. If a game is appealing in a weird way, then the weird is what makes it appealing, not the nation of origin.

And the entire point of this thread is where that weirdness originates, specifically with Japanese games. We spent 4 pages discussing the nature of Japanese culture as related to itself, to foreigners, inside the country, outside the country, historically and locked in the entertainment industry; We're not talking about British games or French games (BUT OOOOOOOOOOH does this relate to french games; french games and games from the eastern european block definitely insert the cultural overtones of their respective countries in their games, often to a fault), we're talking about Japanese games.

But to go further into your sidepoint, of course the cultural origin matters. If they're going to a Japanese games for that unique differences that only Japanese games have, they're going to continue to seek out games that are similar, which will lead them to more Japanese games. It doesn't matter if you overtly care whether they're from Japan or not, the things that keep you returning to a series are generally due to that nature that can only be found in Japanese games. I don't think anyone here is saying, "It was made in Japan and that's what makes it good." What the OP was asking is, now that we're seeing less of that compared to the SNES or PS1 days, what has changed in gaming and in the world and what started these "crazy" games in the first place.

If Final Fantasy suddenly started playing like KOTOR or Mass Effect, a large part of their fanbase would go elsewhere. Hell, that's sort of what happened with Final Fantasy 12 (though that game has...other problems...). It wouldn't be the game that people wanted, what people were looking for when they recall what Final Fantasy is supposed to be. There's a cultural charm that the final fantasy series has, and it keeps people coming back, even when it doesn't work very well. The same can be said for most games coming out of Japan, though lately it does feel like there's sort of an odd homogenized white washing as more and more games are outsourced to western studios. I can't remember the last time we got something as crazy as "No one Beats Mr. Domino" or "Mr. Misquiton". Everything just feels, fairly generalized. And that's kind of a bummer.

@Video_Game_King said:

...一体ここに何が起こってるのか？

インターネットが起こっています。

いつものよう。

@Superkenon said:

@Video_Game_King said:

...一体ここに何が起こってるのか？

インターネットが起こっています。

いつものよう。

-_-　そうだね。これはいつ止めるか？

@psylah: Dude me too

@Video_Game_King: この狂気は永遠です。 われわれは、 自由になることはありませ~ん。

Aaaand now I've probably junked up this thread quite enough.

Japan is...weird.