Pussy Riot: How Far Can Free Speech Take Us?

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Chop

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#51  Edited By Chop

I think "Pussy Riot" are obnoxious idiots but hey, no need to throw them in jail for that.

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imsh_pl

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#52  Edited By imsh_pl

Since I find every initiation of violence immoral I'm obviously with pussy riot on this one.

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thatfrood

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#53  Edited By thatfrood
@dudeglove said:

@Kill said:

As I understand it, Russian society is split down the middle over this issue

They're really not.

Also, none of you know anything about Russia, but I'll happily sit here with some popcorn and watch you all chatter away.

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Example1013

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#54  Edited By Example1013

@dr_mantas: Ok, I get it now. You can kill as many jews as you want, and as long as you serve the State's interest, you'll get not just amnesty, but a medal.

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Karkarov

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#55  Edited By Karkarov

@Kill said:

My understanding was that the detained members of the band were chased down at their homes a few weeks after the gig in the church. Obviously your point stands, the live video shows that church goers were not happy with Pussy Riot being there, but it seems strange that the Russian government would charge them so long after they had caused the disturbance, if people were so offended.

I am pretty sure two weeks is well within the US statute of limitations on arrest and litigating against a perpetrator. That said I do feel the sentence was maybe a tad bit much? 7 years for what is at it's core "disturbing the peace" is a bit ludicrous. Again this isn't the US though, this was Russia. Even if I don't personally agree with their laws or punishment system I am not a citizen of their country. My opinion holds no merit on how they pursue and punish those they feel broke the law. If things are that bad there then the band was doing the right thing by voicing their concerns, they just choose the wrong method of doing so.

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jakob187

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#56  Edited By jakob187

@Nottle said:

I have no concept of Russian law. Is there freedom of speech there?

I know in America you can talk bad as much as you want about the president as long as you don't infringe on their rights or threaten them.

...except for when you talk enough trash and the government uses the NDAA to say you are a terrorist with no evidence of it whatsoever and illegally detain you for as long as they want without a trial.

I mean, it hasn't happened YET, but I'm waiting...

As for the whole thing, a band named Pussy Riot decided to jump into a church and stomp on the rights of people practicing their religion. I wouldn't say that they should be arrested and up for seven years in jail. That seems pretty fucking stupid. At the same time, I don't think they should be let off with a slap on the wrist and a note saying "don't do that again, kiddos". Fine their asses a ridiculous amount of money. Problem solved.

A lot of the problem stemmed from the whole Presidential election and the alleged corruption behind Putin getting voted in. They picked a perfect time to start protesting, but they picked the wrong place to do it.

So in short:

  • Seven years in jail is fucking stupid for this act.
  • Pussy Riot acted like assholes and need to learn what "encroaching on the rights of others" means.
  • The church in question should've started throwing down, exclaiming "I KICK ASS FOR THE LORD".
  • Putin is a fucking dick...and that is generally even unrelated to this. He's just a dick all around.
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1337W422102

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#57  Edited By 1337W422102
@Zaccheus said:

Arrested for blasphemy? That's still a thing? Fuck.

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Nottle

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#58  Edited By Nottle

@jakob187 Said:

@Nottle said:

I have no concept of Russian law. Is there freedom of speech there?

I know in America you can talk bad as much as you want about the president as long as you don't infringe on their rights or threaten them.

...except for when you talk enough trash and the government uses the NDAA to say you are a terrorist with no evidence of it whatsoever and illegally detain you for as long as they want without a trial.

I mean, it hasn't happened YET, but I'm waiting...

I'm all for people speaking there mind, but I really hope the first guy to go is Terry Jones. I use to live in the neighbor hood his church is in. He's kind of an embarrassment to the community and could have hurt someone if anyone took him seriously. Sometimes people try to just cause a ruckus, if he's going to burn other faiths scriptures, do it quietly.

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jerseyscum

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#59  Edited By jerseyscum

@Zaccheus said:

Arrested for blasphemy? That's still a thing? Fuck.

Putin is notorious for not taking dissent very well. This is the guy who sends KGB agents to dump radioactive poison in journalist's drinks and is currently arming the Syrian government, allowing them to continue committing war crimes.

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spartanlolz92

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#60  Edited By spartanlolz92

^^^^^ I would think the fact that putins an ex kgb officer would disqualify him from being president.

it would be like an ss officer becoming chancellor of germany 10 years after nazism was destroyed

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dr_mantas

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#61  Edited By dr_mantas

@Example1013 said:

@dr_mantas: Ok, I get it now. You can kill as many jews as you want, and as long as you serve the State's interest, you'll get not just amnesty, but a medal.

I'm not sure where you're pulling that one from. Haven't heard of anyone getting medals the way you claim.

All I can say is that I know no one in Lithuania who denies the Holocaust. And no one who tries to undermine what happened to Jews in Lithuania and other parts of Europe during WW2.

But you also have to not forget the things that Stalin did, to many groups, which in many cases amount to genocide. (20 million people in conservative estimations, but more likely 40 million). There is no way to justify that the communist regime was a good thing, exactly like the Nazi regime.

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brownsfantb

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#62  Edited By brownsfantb

From watching the video, I think they were well past what could be considered "free speech." Causing a disturbance on private property isn't something that's protected here in America (not sure about Russian laws) and they probably would've been arrested here too. 7 years is probably too tough of a sentence though.

My personal feeling is that they're just a bunch of fucking assholes that want attention. What were they trying to accomplish with that anyway?

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Vinny_Says

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#63  Edited By Vinny_Says

@spartanlolz92 said:

^^^^^ I would think the fact that putins an ex kgb officer would disqualify him from being president.

it would be like an ss officer becoming chancellor of germany 10 years after nazism was destroyed

Are CIA officers not allowed to be president? I did not know that rule existed....

You posters are applying your american views on the politics of another country. Russia is not America, especially not in terms of free speech, and frankly neither is the rest of Europe. Remember those soccer fans who got arrested for racism? Guess where that happened.

Free speech can take you very far, like westboro baptist church far, but only in America, not the rest of the world.

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Still_I_Cry

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#64  Edited By Still_I_Cry

It would be ok here. I don't see a problem with voicing an opinion through music.

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kindgineer

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#65  Edited By kindgineer

Regardless of what country they are in, what they did was pointless and offensive. We all hate collateral damage, and this is really what that was. It was bunch of self-righteous punks thinking it was okay to do what they do in front of a church. It doesn't matter who you are, but that is offensive to a certain type of people and should not be okay.

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EthanielRain

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#66  Edited By EthanielRain

My knowledge of Russia: Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, vodka, snow, ice.

My informed opinion on this: "Hooliganism" is probably the best crime someone could be arrested for. I'd put that on my resume. In bold.

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spartanlolz92

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#67  Edited By spartanlolz92

@ck1nd said:

Regardless of what country they are in, what they did was pointless and offensive. We all hate collateral damage, and this is really what that was. It was bunch of self-righteous punks thinking it was okay to do what they do in front of a church. It doesn't matter who you are, but that is offensive to a certain type of people and should not be okay.

very true I know i would not enjoy it if my sunday morning was interrupted by people playing loud music and screaming obscenietes at my church.

like why not do it infront of a government building or something?? otherwise it just seems like you're grandstanding for publicity

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Kill

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#68  Edited By Kill
@jakob187 said:

@Nottle said:

I have no concept of Russian law. Is there freedom of speech there?

I know in America you can talk bad as much as you want about the president as long as you don't infringe on their rights or threaten them.

...except for when you talk enough trash and the government uses the NDAA to say you are a terrorist with no evidence of it whatsoever and illegally detain you for as long as they want without a trial.

I mean, it hasn't happened YET, but I'm waiting...

As for the whole thing, a band named Pussy Riot decided to jump into a church and stomp on the rights of people practicing their religion. I wouldn't say that they should be arrested and up for seven years in jail. That seems pretty fucking stupid. At the same time, I don't think they should be let off with a slap on the wrist and a note saying "don't do that again, kiddos". Fine their asses a ridiculous amount of money. Problem solved.

A lot of the problem stemmed from the whole Presidential election and the alleged corruption behind Putin getting voted in. They picked a perfect time to start protesting, but they picked the wrong place to do it.

So in short:

  • Seven years in jail is fucking stupid for this act.
  • Pussy Riot acted like assholes and need to learn what "encroaching on the rights of others" means.
  • The church in question should've started throwing down, exclaiming "I KICK ASS FOR THE LORD".
  • Putin is a fucking dick...and that is generally even unrelated to this. He's just a dick all around.
Two of the detained band members are mothers with young children. They've been in custody now, without trial, since April, leaving their kids up shit creek. I know that shouldn't be a factor in garnering sympathy, but it's particularly cruel to young children to fine someone 'a ridiculous amount' just for demonstrating peacefully, in my opinion. There was no violence after all. Just a song played in a church. I think the long detaining without trial is largely a subtle punishment on the women in this fashion. "Look how long we can keep you from your children" and all that.
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Kill

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#69  Edited By Kill
@Karkarov said:

@Kill said:

My understanding was that the detained members of the band were chased down at their homes a few weeks after the gig in the church. Obviously your point stands, the live video shows that church goers were not happy with Pussy Riot being there, but it seems strange that the Russian government would charge them so long after they had caused the disturbance, if people were so offended.

I am pretty sure two weeks is well within the US statute of limitations on arrest and litigating against a perpetrator. That said I do feel the sentence was maybe a tad bit much? 7 years for what is at it's core "disturbing the peace" is a bit ludicrous. Again this isn't the US though, this was Russia. Even if I don't personally agree with their laws or punishment system I am not a citizen of their country. My opinion holds no merit on how they pursue and punish those they feel broke the law. If things are that bad there then the band was doing the right thing by voicing their concerns, they just choose the wrong method of doing so.

There is no sentence (yet), the band members are currently on hunger strike because they feel they are being rushed to court without a chance to prepare an adequate defence. Seven years is the expected sentence, but it may not come to pass with all the international attention on Pussy Riot right now.
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tim_the_corsair

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#70  Edited By tim_the_corsair

He's...Putin...them all in gaol!

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jakob187

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#71  Edited By jakob187

@Kill: They did not demonstrate peacefully. They interrupted someone else's event and thereby stomped on the rights of someone else. That is bullshit, and in no way whatsoever is that actually "demonstrating peacefully". Sure, there was no violence. That doesn't mean they didn't crash an event and leave people in a panic over it. Nothing in that video seemed peaceful to me. It seemed rude as fuck and makes me believe that Pussy Riot are nothing but a bunch of jackasses that think their opinions matter more than someone else's.

The Million Man March was a peaceful demonstration. Occupy Wall Street started as a peaceful demonstration. Hell, as much as I fucking hate the Westboro Baptist Church, they sit off to the side and have peaceful demonstrations (of hatred and bigotry that should be wiped off the face of this planet).

Pussy Riot deserves to be punished, but not thrown in jail. That's fucking extreme.

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mesoian

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#72  Edited By mesoian

@No0b0rAmA said:

Why can't the good old Soviet Union of 1945-1952 be back? This shit wouldn't have even happened.

LOL, you're right. They just would have been shot on sight.

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No0b0rAmA

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#73  Edited By No0b0rAmA

@Mesoian said:

@No0b0rAmA said:

Why can't the good old Soviet Union of 1945-1952 be back? This shit wouldn't have even happened.

LOL, you're right. They just would have been shot on sight.

Actually, depends on the year. If it's in the 50s probably, but they'd probably be sent to a gulag before then. (1945-1949)

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Jayzilla

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#74  Edited By Jayzilla

They performed this in a church? That is the problem right there. If they had done this at a night club, none of us would know who this band is or care for that matter. Don't perform stuff like that in a place that others feel is sacred. It's about respecting others beliefs. I don't go to churches yelling about atheism and I am sure other people dont want atheists in their churches being disruptive. Show some respect for others and this type of thing doesnt happen. That band needs to grow up a bunch.

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Kill

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#75  Edited By Kill
@jakob187 said:

@Kill: They did not demonstrate peacefully. They interrupted someone else's event and thereby stomped on the rights of someone else. That is bullshit, and in no way whatsoever is that actually "demonstrating peacefully". Sure, there was no violence. That doesn't mean they didn't crash an event and leave people in a panic over it. Nothing in that video seemed peaceful to me. It seemed rude as fuck and makes me believe that Pussy Riot are nothing but a bunch of jackasses that think their opinions matter more than someone else's.

The Million Man March was a peaceful demonstration. Occupy Wall Street started as a peaceful demonstration. Hell, as much as I fucking hate the Westboro Baptist Church, they sit off to the side and have peaceful demonstrations (of hatred and bigotry that should be wiped off the face of this planet).

Pussy Riot deserves to be punished, but not thrown in jail. That's fucking extreme.

I haven't seen any evidence of an event being interrupted. Yes, they played a song inside a cathedral, but it seemed to be open to the public and tourists from every report I've read. Therefore, they only really disturbed the church officials, who are now calling for very extreme punishment in return. If you can find an article with the event they interrupted I'd be happy to say I'm wrong! A lot of the articles out there are written in Russian and Google Translate is a bit awful.
 
Really, if Pussy Riot had performed in a street somewhere, none of us would be talking about it. It's a political move, much like the Sex Pistols when they did their boat protest on the Queen's Jubilee in 1977. How you feel about that is probably down to your own political beliefs. I do see a lot of people judging Pussy Riot more harshly due to their being female (these bitches etc). It's an interesting story to follow for me as a fan of punk music and how people react to this in comparison to punk protests of the past which were largely male oriented.
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GabrieleEsposito

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Dear Oppressive Governments:

In the United States, people are allowed freedom to live, speak and pursue happiness as long as they don’t harm others. In the United States people are allowed freedom of expression. People express themselves in many different ways, whether it be through music, writing, speech, art, etc. This isn’t the case everywhere in the world. It is unjust that people are not allowed in some places to express their feelings even when they are not hurting anyone just because oppressive governments want control. If the government’s power is questioned then they fear their control might be taken away. In Russia, for example, people can get jailed and arrested for freely expressing their opinions. This is wrong. If people aren’t being violent and harmful they should be allowed to do and say what they want.

A recent example of this type of injustice occurred in 2012. The Russian punk band Pussy Riot was arrested on charges according to The New Yorker of being “empathetically vulgar”, “inappropriate in a church” and doing things that “offended religious believers” such as dancing in a church. They were protesting because they though that President Putin shouldn’t be reelected and that he was throwing aside “democracy” according to an interview with them from USA Today. They were speaking out against President Putin and his oppressive government.

In the United States if you were to do any of things Pussy Riot was charged for as described above it would be legal. It wouldn’t be something you were given a two-year prison sentence for doing. Pussy Riot wasn’t violent -- they were dancing in a church and voicing their opinions. Putin didn’t want people to voice their opinions and speak out against him. He didn’t want to be questioned, because if there were speculation that something he was doing something wrong his use of authority might be questioned and he might lose that power. When the verdict came out it said that all three women had “mixed-Personality disorder” and some of the traits the court listed of this disorder were “A proactive approach to life”, “a drive for self-fulfillment”, “stubbornly defending their opinion”, and “inflated self-esteem”, among others. Aren’t these traits that a society should promote? These are traits that can help people flourish and grow and cause positive change to happen.

Artists and activists should be able to express their opinions without getting put in a prison camp for almost two years, which was what happened to Pussy Riot. Freedom of expression can lead to good things and improvement in the world. Even though Pussy Riot was put in jail, they still made a difference because their story brought attention to issues of censorship and control in Russia. Many musicians including Sting, Madonna, the Red Hot Chili Peppers and others condemned the sentences along with the United States and the European Union.

Ideas themselves usually don’t lead to injuries or pose a threat to lives; however, if some ideas are brought to action then yes people can be killed or injured. Because of this, we don’t allow people to say they are going to harm others. If people are saying those things then there is a fear they may act on those ideas.

But Pussy Riot was promoting the idea of voting against President Putin in the upcoming election. That idea certainly does no physical harm. Oppressive governments should allow people to voice their ideas and opinions, not label them as mentally ill and throw them in jail. I stand with all the others who have condemned the treatment of the members of Pussy Riot.

Sincerely,

Gabriele Esposito-Wilcock

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leinad44

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#77  Edited By leinad44

Whats with all these necro threads lately?

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sweep

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#80 sweep  Moderator

Dear @gabrieleesposito,

Please do not necro threads that are 2 years old.

Sincerely,

The opressive government.