Shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School

@HellBound said:

@Milkman said:

@HellBound said:

People kill people.

Anyone who honestly thinks that having stricter gun laws would have prevented this are delusional. Someone as sick as this, someone who had the urge to kill kids, would have found a way to get a gun no matter what. Just as easy as getting drugs. Instead of teenage drug dealers, we would have teenage arms dealers.

Let us worry about the victims and get the story first. What bothers me the most is the fact the bastard took his own life. What the fuck.

EDIT: Also http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

A man in china stabbed 22 school children with a Knife. Are we gonna Ban knives to now?

This is the first problem. The idea that any person who does something like this is an irredeemable monster. And I'm not saying this guy isn't but at one time, he wasn't. This guy needed help, not a gun. But in this country, if you talk about your problems you're a pussy and if you go to a therapist you're a freak. We should be talking about gun control and mental health reform because they go hand in hand.

I agree with you. The point I want to make is that there is no absolute solution. Thins like this will still happen some way or another if a person is determined enough. Perhaps having these "Stricter" gun laws would have deterred this person away, but if someone is determined enough, they will find a way. Illegal guns on the street would be just more common. I would think people would see this correlation with the illegal drugs out there.

Excellent thinking that man, lets not do anything to regulate harmful substances or dangerous weapons and see if that makes things any better.

@HellBound said:

Illegal guns on the street would be just more common. I would think people would see this correlation with the illegal drugs out there.

I totally get your point of view and we're obviously from different parts of the world so things are different but, in my country where we have very strict gun control (and we haven't always...), guns are not available on the streets like drugs. Sure, there are illegal gun trades, but I wouldn't have ANY idea where I could go to find a gun. The only guns I've ever seen in my life (maybe four or five?) have been in the holsters of police officers. Of course there are illegale guns here, but they're not 'mainstream' (for want of a better word) to the extent that a person, who might flip out and decide that the kids at his local school need to die, can go and ask a gang for one or whatever. Again, I wouldn't know where to start. I can't imagine living in a culture where it's the norm to say "well, if you can't buy a gun here, you can buy one here, easy." That's really scary.

I'm bawling right now. I can't fathom why anyone would do this. Going to school (will finish 2013) to be an elementary (Pre-k) teacher this....hits close to home. My heart goes out to them all.

@SomeDeliCook said:

@ImmortalSaiyan said:

Why would somebody do that. What is to be gained from shooting at children.

The same gained from shooting anyone else: Nothing

I would figure the shooter had some reason for it. I want to know why? Did they just want to see kids suffer? Hate schools?

@laserbolts said:

Dumb fucking gun laws mixed with crazy people. Nothing good can come from it. Poor kids fuck.

The gun laws are ok, most guns used in illegal activities are black market bought anyway.

@Class_A_Ninja said:

It's probably not within the realm of possibility, but if everyone just ran at the gunmen in mass shooting situations and dog-piled him or her, do you think less people would be harmed?

Apparently 3 people (adults) did run towards him to try and subdue him. Two of them were killed (at this time that is the report).

I think this to though. If I was ever in this situation (pray it never happens again) I would bum rush him.

Anyone who can give me a good answer about why we need weapons for which the only purpose to kill other humans and not say "to protect ourselves from others that have these weapons" I will say bravo. But I'm pretty much betting there isn't a good answer to be found. Nothing is ever perfect, but if we don't start limiting these weapons, we will always be at their mercy.

@JordanK85 said:

Anyone who would do one of these mass shootings is obviously a mentally unhealthy individual. I would suggest that part of the solution is more access to and better integration of mental health services as well as more education about mental health issues to help remove stigmas attached to mental illness and help people identify issues before they become serious problems.

This is a rational attitude to have towards this. The people simplifying this to "some monster murdered people" are the reason I find this type of story so dicey. It angers up the blood of a lot of people who can't look at all sides of the issue and start yelling at the sky, essentially, for something to change and something to happen. If this results in mental health awareness improving in Connecticut, it was worth making international news out of. If not, yet another disgusting case of the media exploiting tragedy to sell papers and get clicks. Happens every time and I'm sorry if I sound cynical about it but I've been there and this kind of thing needs to be thought through, not showered with cheap condolences and hand-wringing.

@Class_A_Ninja said:

It's probably not within the realm of possibility, but if everyone just ran at the gunmen in mass shooting situations and dog-piled him or her, do you think less people would be harmed?

I believe there were two shooters in this case, so it might not be that feasible.

However, theoretically, this seems logical to me: dog piling a dude with a gun like that would eventually incapacitate him, even though some people would die as a result of trying to tackle him/her. However, in practice, I doubt running head first into danger is the first thing going through everyone's mind when placed in that situation, especially when it involves little kids. And if no one joins you in trying to subdue them, you'd just die for nothing.

@bibamatt said:

@HellBound said:

Illegal guns on the street would be just more common. I would think people would see this correlation with the illegal drugs out there.

I totally get your point of view and we're obviously from different parts of the world so things are different but, in my country where we have very strict gun control (and we haven't always...), guns are not available on the streets like drugs. Sure, there are illegal gun trades, but I wouldn't have ANY idea where I could go to find a gun. The only guns I've ever seen in my life (maybe four or five?) have been in the holsters of police officers. Of course there are illegale guns here, but they're not 'mainstream' (for want of a better word) to the extent that a person, who might flip out and decide that the kids at his local school need to die, can go and ask a gang for one or whatever. Again, I wouldn't know where to start. I can't imagine living in a culture where it's the norm to say "well, if you can't buy a gun here, you can buy one here, easy." That's really scary.

Well I don't know where you are from, but I agree with you that it is scary. Chicago has one of the most strict gun laws yet still has the highest crime rate with armed weapons. Hey I am like you, I only know one person who owns guns and he is just a friend of my friend's family. I would not even know where to look either, but people that want to find out. Be thankful you don't know.

@Nals said:

@haffy said:

@HellBound said:

@FluxWaveZ said:

@HellBound said:

EDIT: Also http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

A man in china stabbed 22 school children with a Knife. Are we gonna Ban knives to now?

I'm not taking a position on gun laws here, but what's easier to execute: a gun massacre or a knife massacre? Because I feel like the gun wins, so that comparison isn't really worth making.

Of course it is. People demand control of a violent weapon that they think will automatically solve this problem. Take a gun away and they will find something else. Homemade bombs. Any idiot can google that and make one. What are you gonna do then? Control common chemicals? Also how does making something "easier to execute" make any sense? The guy with the Knife managed to get 22 kids without a problem.

People look for the "easiest" solution in their minds without actually thinking about it. Making sense of a tragedy is fine, but making leaps on how to solve the problem without even giving it thought is sad.

Killing someone with a knife and a gun are two completely different things.

Your right. When you use a knife/C&C you run on adrenaline, when you use a gun you put more thought into it.

Oh wait, that means a guy who stabs a bunch of unarmed people with a knife will go further. That doesn't help this silly argument at all!

Shut the fuck up about guns and gun control. All the evidence about guns and gun control has pointed the exact opposite way, that guns and increased availability of guns do not increase gun violence. Sweden, Switzerland, and Washington State are prime examples of this, though you could easily find more. As it is, the kids are still warm, and you sick fucks are using them as a platform for your political beliefs. You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. This thread should be about mourning, information, and perhaps talk about why things like this happen, not how good/bad guns are.

I doubt it's as heinous as folks seeing a chance to push their political beliefs.

People see something like this and get angry, and that anger is sated by blaming something.

Jesus, what a horrible way to end the year. I can't even imagine the pain of those families.

@MikeGosot said:

Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

No, you can't. Although I have heard of people trying to get guns allowed on college campuses to protect themselves.

@FluxWaveZ said:

@Class_A_Ninja said:

It's probably not within the realm of possibility, but if everyone just ran at the gunmen in mass shooting situations and dog-piled him or her, do you think less people would be harmed?

I believe there were two shooters in this case, so it might not be that feasible.

However, theoretically, this seems logical to me: dog piling a dude with a gun like that would eventually incapacitate him, even though some people would die as a result of trying to tackle him/her. However, in practice, I doubt running head first into danger is the first thing going through everyone's mind when placed in that situation, especially when it involves little kids. And if no one joins you in trying to subdue them, you'd just die for nothing.

The hardest part about all this is that we can sit here talking about this and think clearly about what could have been done, what we could have done, but put us in that high pressure situation where fight or flight is in full force and our thinking is changed. I would hope that I would have the mental capacity at the time of the incident to think like this and think of what I think now, but being in that situation changes everything. Your body is wired to produce hormones to protect yourself and either run or stay and fight.

@Class_A_Ninja said:

It's probably not within the realm of possibility, but if everyone just ran at the gunmen in mass shooting situations and dog-piled him or her, do you think less people would be harmed?

I can see how you'd come to this conclusion. Ideally (not ideally, but for lack of a better term), somebody with a gun believes themselves to be the one with "power" so to speak, and so if you get two guys dead-sprinting towards an attacker, there's a chance for the gunmen to be befuddled for a second, maybe taking longer to load a gun or getting shaky aiming, or something. It's not exactly hard to shoot at people hiding or running away. It might be more tricky if you've got two guys ready to run over you.

That's just too fucked up.

@MikeGosot said:

GUN CONTROL LAWS WON'T DO ANYTHING TO STOP CRAZY PEOPLE. Also, just a question, since i don't understand much about American laws... Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

You can't bring a water pistol to American high schools without repercussion.

Hey, gun nuts touting the Chinese stabber as an excuse for why guns don't need greater restrictions put on them? YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THAT NONE OF THOSE KIDS DIED.

@MikeGosot: Truly sorry to hear about that - but it's worth noting that almost all school shootings throughout the WORLD have happened in the USA and that almost all of those guns were obtained legally.

@MikeGosot said:

Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

No, you can't. Although I have heard of people trying to get guns allowed on college campuses to protect themselves.

@Bogitt: Regulate what.

The man used two pistols. Pistols are readily available not just in every state, but in every nearby country. Hell you can easily and legally buy pistols even in places like the UK.

Availability of weapons was not the issue. The issue was the man was fucking nuts, and took it out on children. If guns were 100% illegal, he would have used a knife. If you took away knives, he would have used a car, or a rock, or a dirty bomb, or a baseball bat.

Nobody in this thread is ready to debate gun control, so we shouldn't shit up the thread doing just that. Can you tell me whats the difference between a dangerous weapon a safe weapon? How about caliber sizes, and what should be legally sold? How about the effect removal of weapons in urban environments has had on the sales of improvised weapons, such as bats or knives. Maybe you could tell me why certain states with lax gun laws have very low gun crime ( 2-4% ) while states with very harsh gun laws have very high gun crime ( 50-60% ). Maybe you could inform me and the public why a country like Switzerland, which hands out fully automatic licenses to anyone over 18 like it's a candy, has the lowest gun crime rates in the world, yet places like Russia still have extremely high gun crime rates, despite harsh embargoes on guns/gun ownership. Oh, and before you mention the UK/Japan, realize they are islands, and that they are in full control of all imports into their nations, so they actually can keep weapons out.

If someone here is on the board of the ATF, and wants to talk about the subject, then fine, they can go ahead. As is, this thread is using dead children as a platform to spout their asinine political beliefs, with no actual scientific backing for such beliefs, just emotion. This country needs to bring up the gun control debate again, but nobody in this thread should be asking those questions. All it's accomplishing is threadshitting.

@NegativeCero

@MikeGosot said:

Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

No, you can't. Although I have heard of people trying to get guns allowed on college campuses to protect themselves.

Michigan legislature just passed a bill allowing guns in classrooms. It's currently waiting to be signed into law.

Also, just a question, since i don't understand much about American laws... Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

@Kyodra said:

I believe that the increase in these kind of incidents is related to general unhappiness in our societies as well as the amount of guns people have. If everyone would feel safe, financially stable, have equal chances to succeed and have someone to talk to if troubled, then these kind of incidents would certainly go down. I know in my country two of these kind of incidents happened in succeeding years after a decade of lowered resources on youth mental healthcare, it had never happened before.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I certainly hope the amount of victims will be overestimated by the media reports.

Similarly, there are a lot of studies and research showing an increase in violent crime during times of war. You've also got studies showing violence on television increasing aggressive behavior. It's very cyclical: when you've got aggressive citizens, you justify war more easily, and when you justify war more easily, you see more violent crime and aggressive behavior. I really wish we didn't have such a strong culture of violence, because it's a real underlying factor here.

@Mageman said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Mageman said:

@Toadie said:

@Mageman: That is absolutely no excuse to try to limit guns to people that use them for ill. If you keep using that excuse for everything, you may as well lay down and let every terrible thing in the world roll over us and do nothing. And guess what, law abiding citizens shouldn't need these guns, its only because we allow them that that is even a thought.

But they do need them, it's not moral to disallow someone's right to defend his home.

Switzerland, Austria and Serbia also have quite liberal gun laws yet that does not cause horrible gun crime there, it's an American phenomenon and gun laws have nothing to do with it. As I said, if that guy couldn't get guns legally he would waste an additional 30 min of his pathetic life and get them illegally.

I think the only conceivable way to get alot of illegal guns of the street is for the government to offer like 2000 dollars a gun, in a no questions asked take illegal gun and heres your money situation. That is how fucked up shit has gotten that this is the only option that could ever work.

I guess, a pretty bizarre scenario to imagine but it might make things a bit better.

It was pretty successful in Australia in 1996, the government brought back and destroyed 631,000 firearms, pretty successful for a country of 18,000,000 at the time. This all happened after public outrage on gunlaws after a shooting massacre in Australia that killed 35 people and injured 21 more in Port Arthur.

NBC reporting that some of the children were killed execution-style.

@MikeGosot: In this specific case the at least one of the guns used by a suspect was obtained legally though, and the people needing defending were all under the age of ten. Little kids can't defend themselves from water balloons - looser gun control laws wouldn't help them for shit.

The "needing guns to defend ourselves" argument is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and anyone who believes it fucking deserves what's coming to them.

One of the best facts I've ever heard here in the UK is that carrying a knife makes you more likely to get stabbed.

Carrying a weapon to protect yourself is asking to be killed.

Fucking America.

OT: This whole shit is sick, and I can't believe people still defend the right to give everyone guns >.>

@Class_A_Ninja said:

It's probably not within the realm of possibility, but if everyone just ran at the gunmen in mass shooting situations and dog-piled him or her, do you think less people would be harmed?

I can see how you'd come to this conclusion. Ideally (not ideally, but for lack of a better term), somebody with a gun believes themselves to be the one with "power" so to speak, and so if you get two guys dead-sprinting towards an attacker, there's a chance for the gunmen to be befuddled for a second, maybe taking longer to load a gun or getting shaky aiming, or something. It's not exactly hard to shoot at people hiding or running away. It might be more tricky if you've got two guys ready to run over you.

@Nals: @Nals said:

@Bogitt: Regulate what.

The man used two pistols. Pistols are readily available not just in every state, but in every nearby country. Hell you can easily and legally buy pistols even in places like the UK.

Availability of weapons was not the issue. The issue was the man was fucking nuts, and took it out on children. If guns were 100% illegal, he would have used a knife. If you took away knives, he would have used a car, or a rock, or a dirty bomb, or a baseball bat.

Nobody in this thread is ready to debate gun control, so we shouldn't shit up the thread doing just that. Can you tell me whats the difference between a dangerous weapon a safe weapon? How about caliber sizes, and what should be legally sold? How about the effect removal of weapons in urban environments has had on the sales of improvised weapons, such as bats or knives. Maybe you could tell me why certain states with lax gun laws have very low gun crime ( 2-4% ) while states with very harsh gun laws have very high gun crime ( 50-60% ). Maybe you could inform me and the public why a country like Switzerland, which hands out fully automatic licenses to anyone over 18 like it's a candy, has the lowest gun crime rates in the world, yet places like Russia still have extremely high gun crime rates, despite harsh embargoes on guns/gun ownership. Oh, and before you mention the UK/Japan, realize they are islands, and that they are in full control of all imports into their nations, so they actually can keep weapons out.

If someone here is on the board of the ATF, and wants to talk about the subject, then fine, they can go ahead. As is, this thread is using dead children as a platform to spout their asinine political beliefs, with no actual scientific backing for such beliefs, just emotion. This country needs to bring up the gun control debate again, but nobody in this thread should be asking those questions. All it's accomplishing is threadshitting.

Umm Pistols in the UK is a lie. We can get shotguns if you own a farm but not pistols. Don't bullshit during such a horrible crime like this has been commited.

'British law defines a "pistol" as a firearm with a barrel shorter than 30 cm or a total length of less than 60 cm (this definition encompasses revolvers, revolving pistols). Only muzzle-loading pistols—including muzzle-loading revolvers—are permitted; in practice all such firearms use black powder—a Class 1 explosive—as the propellant. All other pistols are prohibited on the UK mainland, with some exceptions such as pistols used for the humane dispatch of injured animals (such as deer) and some historical firearms.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Yay guns! - America

AP: Suspect used .223 caliber rifle. This is a picture of a .223 rifle. This is legal. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A-GJSUFCUAANr51.jpg:large

@MikeGosot said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@NegativeCero

@MikeGosot said:

Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

No, you can't. Although I have heard of people trying to get guns allowed on college campuses to protect themselves.

Michigan legislature just passed a bill allowing guns in classrooms. It's currently waiting to be signed into law.

Oh, that's great, but it just sucks that you have to carry a gun to protect yourself.

Carrying guns on you is very bad, example your having a very bad day and you find out your friend has been sleeping with your girl friend, it would probably turn into a punch up, but with a gun involved you could snap and pull the gun out your bag and pull the trigger. People snap on a daily basis, having guns on you can make shit very toxic and get way out of hand.

@MariachiMacabre said:

@NegativeCero

@MikeGosot said:

Can you bring a gun to a school in America?

No, you can't. Although I have heard of people trying to get guns allowed on college campuses to protect themselves.

Michigan legislature just passed a bill allowing guns in classrooms. It's currently waiting to be signed into law.

Oh, that's great, but it just sucks that you have to carry a gun to protect yourself.

What shitty, awful news to come home to this afternoon. There are some truly sick, twisted fucks out there that would want to do this.

So happy to know I live in a country where this happens and our reaction is 'you can now carry a gun on your person in public'. How about we start trying to fix this before being more lenient with weapons? Other countries where firearms play just as big of a role (or bigger role) in everyday life do not have these sorts of issues. There is clearly something wrong with us.

Fucking Jesus fuck... 27 dead..

Who goes after kids? Like if you're pissed at the world and wanna take out a bunch if people with you go after a cop station. Not that rationality has anything to do with stuff like this. This is awful.

CBS: Body found at residence of shooter

Edit: More than one body.

Little kids get shot and still they don't question what might be wrong with their fucking up little society of trigger happy inbred family buying guns left and right. 
Stop this fucking planet, I want off.

Yeah, what can I even say about this? Silly people.

@Mageman said:

@Sooty said:

Surprise surprise. How many more lives need to be lost to tighten gun laws in America?

and agree with @Bourbon_Warrior: there's too many guns in circulation now, but they should still make it at least a little challenging to get a gun, the fact Walmarts sell guns creeps me out.

There is no correlation between gun laws and crime, Switzerland, Austria, Canada and Serbia also have pretty lax gun laws and it does not spike up the crime rate, that is a fact .

Yeah sure, I don't see school shootings multiple times a year in any country except the US. Nobody should start with anything pro-gun ownership because you don't have a leg to stand on, the facts are there and a quick Google will show that the US has school shootings multiple times a year, just because some only have a few dead or injured doesn't mean they aren't happening. The US needs to tighten things.

Also, the Batman thing, good luck doing that in Britain with a knife. You'll get overpowered very quickly, with a gun? Yeah sure, you'll kill a lot of people quite easy which is what happened in the US.

I'm exiting this thread because these arguments about gun control really show some of the nuts on these forums, not necessarily you but others are there.

@Degringolade said:

AP: Suspect used .223 caliber rifle. This is a picture of a .223 rifle. This is legal. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A-GJSUFCUAANr51.jpg:large

How the fuck is that thing legal, what kind of murderous deer are you shooting with that thing?

As far as the guns/violence correlation debate, Harvard has already run the numbers for you: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

1. Instead of using this for the obvious thing people want to use it for - talking about gun laws in America, how about we focus on the families affected by this tragedy itself and how fucked up it is? Moreover, if you really want to bring up gun laws, it should be pointed out that schools and theatres (where recent shootings have occurred) are gun-free zones.

2. There was a possible second suspect and, as it stands, there is still an entire classroom that is unaccounted for from when they evacuated outside. THAT is something of more concern at the moment.

We can all get into the political implications of gun laws and shit at a later time. Right now, my heart goes out to the families and I hope that Newtown, Conn. can find out everything that happened before trying to take things back to as close to normal. I cannot imagine how hard that community is being hit by this right now.

I wonder if events like these lead to exponential growth in the ownership of firearms because of the need for self-defense. Seems like it will.

I'm sorry to everyone who was affected.

No matter what side you are on, if you use this as your propaganda for your shitty gun control arguments, you're a terrible person.

Timothy McVeigh don't need no gun.

@Nals: I was merely dissapointed with his complete apathy about the situation - i would prefer to try and fail to fix a problem than not attempt to at all. Nice wall of text you've got there though.

@Degringolade said:

As far as the guns/violence correlation debate, Harvard has already run the numbers for you: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

More Guns = More Homicide, Thanks Harvard how much money to you take for that stunning report...

@Sooty: Exactly there is no comparison between a knife and a gun. Any pussy can shoot up a room with a gun, they probably wouldn't even try and confront someone with a knife.

Private citizens can not own a nuclear weapon, but can own a book of matches. The question isn't "Should there be a line?" The question is "Where should that line be?"

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Degringolade said:

As far as the guns/violence correlation debate, Harvard has already run the numbers for you: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

More Guns = More Homicide, Thanks Harvard how much money to you take for that stunning report...

Aren't some people disputing that? In this thread? Obviously if that's accurate, it's necessary.

fuck man, those kids can't have been more than 10 years old

I don't want to know what kind of fucked up afterlife awaits someone who would do something like this