Laura (prematurely) joins the SFV roster

@hassun: oh I absolutely think people confuse those concepts these days. We are in an era of hypersensitivity when it comes to sexuality (among other things) in gaming. I was one of those people who absolutely did not care about Quiet's design in MGS V.

Likewise I'm not too bothered by DOA designs because I kind of treated as a given at this point. I think the problem for me personally is that Street Fighter had that restraint in the past while still maintaining a great design sense. Even "sexy" characters like Viper or Poison manage to retain those traditional SF values. They're sexy and very well designed where you don't roll your eyes. Cammy was always the best example as she had purposefully small breasts in all her iterations, which is probably why I was so disappointed when I saw they ballooned her up. It's still a good looking character model and the animations are great as usual, but it seems like that touch of class isn't there anymore - and unlike DOA or MK, for the longest time Street Fighter was simply better than that.

@hassun: KoF's designs are about as normal as you can get for a fighting game, Mai aside.

Awwww that's not Oro at all! Hope she's better than Dee Jay.

@humanity: I think R. Mika's new design is a good example of that change. She has always looked pretty provocative but they somehow managed to give her even less clothing in SFV (half of her breasts out there, full ass cheeks, etc.), not to mention it looks like her body could burst out of her flimsy outfit at any moment. And then there is that Critical Art...

NB4 someone starts complaining about her overtly sexual...

...oh, I'm too late.

I don't know. Maybe I just think that a woman is allowed to be sexy as well as capable of kicking someone's ass? When did showing cleavage and side boob become such a bad thing?

If they had someone telling her "hey Tits McGee, wanna have some fun?", this might be a different story for me. However, as it stands, it looks like a chick that is proud of her body and her ability to administer an ass-kicking equally.

It's nowhere even close to something like...ya know...METAL GEAR SOLID V LEVELS OF BULLSHIT OVERT SEXUALITY.

@fredchuckdave: They got pretty creepy with some of the females in XIII. Yuri (the example I posted) is a good example of that. They went full moe with them. Massive round head and eyes, disproportionate to their bodies. And the weird thing is they only did it for a few characters.

E.g.

VS

Yo when's Juri

Just stepping in to agree with the opinion that there is a difference between a design being "sexy" in a way that feels reasonable, plausible, or even incidental and a design being dumbass pandering-- and SFV seems to be going in the latter direction, even with previously established characters, which seems stupid and pointless to me.

I mean, was anybody playing SFIV and saying "This is a great game, I just wish it was more embarrassing?"

I'm glad I'm not the one one who has noticed that the female cast has seemingly become a lot more stacked since Street Fighter IV. I'm not gonna get too incensed about it because bad cheesecake character designs have always been a thing in Fighting Games, it's just a little disappointing to see that bleed a little more into Street Fighter, which I feel like has always been a little more reserved than some of its competitors.

I think you can make characters with huge racks and cleavage if it makes sense for that character. R.Mika, to me, made perfect sense. She's a silly over the top wrestling themed character. For this character, I'm not so sure. It doesn't seem like it fit the character's overall design.

That's just my opinion thought.

@hassun: Athena's design has always been weird so whatever on that front, I think Yuri looks fine in general; sure her head's big but she's not an 8 year old Touhou Goddess or anything.

They're fucking video game characters. It's not about being "allowed" to be sexy, they're not actual people who chose to dress a certain way, they look like that because the designers decided every female character has to be "sexy".

@teaoverlord said:

... And?

I dunno, her and Rashid's outfits feel somewhat lacking in personality. Sure, Rashid's got his silly DBZ visor and some fluff (backpack, harness thing, arm belt stuff), and she's got somewhat different-looking hair (it's not that different), her gi colour and way it's tied, and those cool bracelets. Other than those things, Rashid's outfit is a bit on-the-nose and Laura's is just too plain. The only difference for me is I've got a soft-spot for outfits like Rashid's.

That first guy with the crazy hair had personality. Older "new" characters like Q, Dudley, Elena, and Skullomania all had designs with personality. They stood out in a way that meshed well with the existing characters while also bringing out something different. They felt unique.

Maybe her animations add a lot. Rashid's certainly more interesting when you see him in action. Going purely on aesthetics though, her getup's just sort of bland.

But you know what? I didn't like Vega's new shirt either, but I kinda got past that thinking they were going for more of a world warrior sort of thing. With that squarely in mind, I'm kinda coming around on Laura's design (and Rashid's). I've never been particularly fond of characters coming out with just a differently coloured gi-type outfit, but pulling back and looking at the whole roster, I dunno, it's sort of starting to click.

Was it ever confirmed that Alex and Urien were joining the roster? Because looking at everyone that's been revealed, they'd kinda fit in a cool way. Hunh.

@oldirtybearon: Maybe I misunderstood his argument but a lot of people defend stuff like Quiet's design by saying that you wouldn't judge a woman who decided to dress like that in real life.

Based on what we know, Alex and Urien won't be in the initial 16 roster. Both would be in the "not seen in a while list" and those are full. All that is left for the first 16 is one classic character (ones like Zangief/Ryu/Chun/etc) and 2 brand new characters.

@teaoverlord said:

I'm still trying to figure out what your argument is. You just say that a video game character is dressed sexily because she was designed to. What exactly is your point?

That's pretty much my take on this as well. I don't mind fighters like R. Mika, it just would be nice to have a bit more diversity in the way the (female) characters are designed.

For real though.

@oldirtybearon: That it's fine to criticize their design. People try to frame it as a woman who's in control of her sexuality (which I guess works for, like, Bayonetta), but usually the actual character doesn't actually have anything to do with the design and they just gave her huge boobs and skimpy clothes because apparently their main demographic is horny 14-year-olds.

@teaoverlord: Let's ignore the fact that you think the outfit is skimpy because, whatever, to the Amish even showing ankle is worth stoning a woman for. Have that one on the house.

What I'm curious about is your idea that the designers of this character think their audience is "horny 14 year olds," predicated solely on the fact that she's well endowed. That's it. Think about it for a moment, would this character's design be nearly as offensive to you if she had a "reasonable" B or C cup size? Why is it that "huge boobs" bother you, and what is it about "huge boobs" in particular that makes you think the designers are pandering? This is something I've seen get thrown around a lot lately, that a character can only have big breasts because the character designer is a weirdo, pandering, pervert. As if it's some great crime to like big breasts, or an affront to anyone's sensibilities that big breasts can exist.

I ask you to analyze this thought process because I think you'll find it says a hell of a lot more about yourself than it does the character designer. All they did was make a character. They put in her clothes and made her boobs bigger than average. That's it.

Probably when the costumes clearly would inhibit said woman's ability to kick any ass if they were bound by any sort of physical reality. I can suspend my disbelief for characters like Chun-Li and Cammy, but when you put a character like Laura in an outfit she should be absolutely flying out of with the slightest martial movement, it becomes explicitly clear that no thought went into the design beyond pure titillation.

@starvinggamer said:

Does it also take you out of it when a green wild man with fire red hair electrifies himself without any serious harm? Or that a mystical Japanese guy in a red bandana can shoot fireballs out of his fists?

But no, let's draw the line at big boobs in a top designed to show off cleavage because double sided tape doesn't exist in this fantastical reality.

@oldirtybearon: I would agree with you if they didn't do the same thing for every announced female character in this game except Karin. It's not that female characters can't have big breasts or be sexy, it's that the designers think that being sexy is a super important characteristic that every female character has to have.

@teaoverlord: But why is that bad? Seriously, ask yourself why you think it's bad for everybody in a video game to be sexy, because it sure as hell isn't just Cammy or Chun Li (powerful thighs), or Rainbow Mika, or Vega, or Ryu, or Ken, or anyone one else. Everybody in this game is designed to be hyper masculine, hyper feminine, hyper everything because it's flashy, stylish, and fun.

Exactly why is that a problem?

Not at all, because those things are justified within the context of the game's fictional universe and have actual gameplay ramifications. There is zero justification for why these women would rather glue their breasts to these hilariously impractical outfits and have them painfully swing about as they battle.

Which is nonsense, just like the typically associated response is nonsense. They're characters; representations of some imagined persons. It's not wholly unlike when you argue about "women" and "men" with some abstract in mind, rather than a particular person.

A woman can appear one way and still be strong. A man can appear one way and still be strong. The existence of the woman and man in those statements is irrelevant, because we're talking about an idea, a principle. "Woman" and "man" are concepts facilitating an expression of that idea. Namely, that how you appear is separate and not always reflective of what you are, or how you should behave.

I think that's all quite relevant in a discussion of design, even if it might veer into matters beyond strictly aesthetic judgement. You may just as well believe that a character's appearance carries a particular sort of connotation, while another believes it carries connotations from an entirely different realm of qualities.

My biggest let down is the lack of blue pants! That's such huge part of the Brazilian color scheme.

Because some people would enjoy more diversity that's why. I also really dislike the "b-b-but it's fantasy!" argument that gets thrown around a lot. Yes it's a videogame and yes it's not real, thanks for pointing that out. That doesn't mean the character designs are beyond criticism. You like those designs? That's cool but please make sure you also accept the criticism of those that don't. We're not trying to ban sexy character designs from videogames nor do we think sexuality in videogames is generally a bad thing. I love fighting games, I love Street Fighter and I feel that SFIV did a pretty decent job with character designs that look cool and are sexy as well in cases like C.Viper and especially Juri. It just seems to be more of a predominant theme here in a way that I think could be handled better. That being said I'm still very curious how she'll play and how the design will look in motion.

@hassun said:

@humanity: I think R. Mika's new design is a good example of that change. She has always looked pretty provocative but they somehow managed to give her even less clothing in SFV (half of her breasts out there, full ass cheeks, etc.), not to mention it looks like her body could burst out of her flimsy outfit at any moment. And then there is that Critical Art...

If you compare the SFV renders to Alpha 3's sprites instead of its concept art, I think you'd see that her design hasn't really changed all that dramatically.

@altairre: @starvinggamer said:

So let me get this straight, a realistic thing that well endowed women actually do to fit into those kinds of tops (double sided tape) is breaking kayfabe, but you would be okay with it if this character had a win pose with a dialogue box that said "I like this top! It's my favourite!" or "This top was given to me by my deceased mother, and I wear it in her honour"? Why does it need justification because fireballs and electric green men sure as shit do not. Nobody ever looked at Street Fighter and said "how can that man set his hand on fire and jump 20 feet into the air? That's not realistic!" and do you know why? Because it looked cool as hell. Why would a game that follows the Rule of Cool abandon that principle when it comes to character design?

If you don't like big boobs, say so. Just say you don't like big boobs. It's okay, nobody is going to lynch you for having preferences. The part that makes you look weird is when you come up with this bizarre justifications for why you don't like this particular expression of crazy.

altairre: So your problem is that you want diversity in a game that is all about the best fighters in the world coming together and duking it out to see who reigns supreme. A game that features more ethnic and cultural diversity than probably any other video game ever made. You do realize how crazy that sounds, right? Or is it that you want more variation in breast sizes, and if that's the case, why do you care so much about fake polygonal breasts in a video game? This is such a senseless thing to nitpick over and I can't understand why anyone would be bothered by this. This is a ridiculous discussion, seeing so many people cluck their tongues because a video game character has big breasts.

And for the record, nobody has to accept or respect any criticism that's predicated on shaky principles or bad logic. If that were true, we should probably respect those people who criticize black lives matter for not saying all lives matter.

And if any mod or tech person at Giant Bomb is reading this, for fuck's sake you need a better tagging system. It's ridiculous that we can't quote multiple posts, especially given this website's strong predilection for people holding multiple conversations with multiple people in the same thread.

This has always been (and continues to be) an incredibly poor argument. "People throw fireballs in this game so you can't criticise the visual design of the character!" It's stupid. Please stop doing that. Something being a fictional universe which does not exactly adheres to our reality should never be used as a blanket excuse for anything.

And how would that even explain the breasts of adult women increasing in size between games?

It makes absolutely no sense to say this. Why on earth would someone else making a comment like that make it better or worse? I also grow really tired of people using the excuse that that these are proud independent women who just like to look sexy for themselves.

It's actually not as far off as you think. This isn't exactly a new phenomenon in fighting games either. Kojima just made some up some lame excuses in an attempt to explain why she looks like a $3 stripper.

@itwongo: Posting animations of her infamous butt attack has very little to do with what I said. She still has that attack.

I feel I want to say something about this character but really I got nothing...

Or ok here is something: seems the deal is sealed so far as SFV's new design aesthetic and I think we are all mostly in this together, sighing in exhaustion at the V sized cups in this game. It's a shame really. I really love the look of everything but my goodness. Did all the tits and asses have to be so big and jigglly and all the camera shots need to dive into their chests or ride up their legs?

At least her hair looks great.

Also I generally hate capoeira / break dance fighting of any kind. Eddy Gordo ruined that shit forever.

I think this is the only character I've seen so far that just leaves me blank, but, to be fair, this isn't the full reveal. So, who knows.

@hassun: Yes, because highlighting the disparity between someone not having an issue with unrealistic bullshit and then turning around and having a big problem with realistic bullshit is a bad argument.

What the argument does is serve to highlight the boundaries and real concerns of the issue. People don't care that things are unrealistic so long as it doesn't make them feel uncomfortable sexually. People in this thread don't care that Luara (is that her name?) has big breasts, they only care because she's sporting cleavage which years of cultural conditioning has told them is wrong. They make up these absurd claims about the intention of the author (in this case the character designer) in order to obfuscate the fact that big boobs make them feel uncomfortable. Nobody bats an eye at a rippling mass of oily muscle like Ryu because culturally, we don't have that issue towards men, but women's bodies are pure and to even gaze upon them is like murdering unicorns.

I have yet to see one person in this thread actually state what is wrong with Laura having big boobs and cleavage. It's all hidden behind vague reasoning and virtue signaling. It's silly.

Ah, wonderful, something new for the socially hypersensitive to get up in arms about

Every time their ire comes to the forefront it just gets that much weaker, that much more tired and boring.

It's still a pretty good show, regardless, but it just happens like clockwork these days

I'm happy with some Capoeira/BJJ style Fighting on my Streets. Also she's cute (boobs or not), which I'm fine with.

Hey! :p (Let's also remember that there's a Dan.)

@hassun: Who is saying you that you can't criticize a character's appearance? Seriously. People are challenging criticisms and perspectives, and that's okay.

Disagreement is one thing and repression is another.

@oldirtybearon:I'm all for big boobs and gravure and cheesecake. I have no issues with DoA and SC because that's clearly what they're going for. I'm just disappointed that the SF series has been slowly sliding in that same direction with each new character design for no apparent reason other than fanservice. It feels lazy and pandering and goes against what I perceived as the established aesthetic tone of the series.

Again, fireballs and electricity and jumping 20-feet in the air all have gameplay ramifications and make sense within the logic of the universe. I don't know if you know anything about big boobs or people with big boobs. They can be extremely painful with only moderate physical activity unless properly supported. Yes, women can fit into all kinds of tops if they want to, but to do so voluntarily when participating in intensely acrobatic marital combat? It makes about as much sense as having every male character strap a machine that automatically hammers their testicles every time they do anything more vigorous than walking forward. And even that would be fine if they bothered to justify it in the fiction!

And to touch on your reply to @hassun, these SF boobs don't make me feel uncomfortable at all. I read hentai regularly and the boobs in that can get pretty fucking nuts let me tell you (to say nothing of the way hentai generally treats the rest of the female anatomy. And dicks). I'm not ashamed of this fact, I shared this with my wife shortly after we started dating and we have talked about it on more than one occasion. I explicitly stated why I have an issue with Laura's boobs. It's not that they're big. It's that the clothing they're wrapped in make absolutely no sense in any context of humans participating in martial combat. They could easily put her in something similarly revealing that would also support her properly in a way an athlete with big boobs would want to be supported. It's the difference that makes it clear that her design was less "let's make a cool strong female character" and more "let's make something that guys will want to look at". Which again, I have no problem with as a concept, but strikes me as disappointingly cheap and out-of-character for the SF series.

EDIT: Why does Ryu throw fireballs? Because it allows him to control space and attack his enemies from afar. Why does Blanka sheathe his body in electricty? Because it allows him to suddenly transofrm his entire body into a threatening area of attack. Why does Laura wear a flimsy bikini top that would subject her to excruciating breast pain while fighting? Because guys like boobs.

@hassun: I'm sorry I misunderstood your point. I thought it was that Capcom crossed a line between classy-sexy and pandering-sexy with Mika's design in SFV compared to her design in Alpha 3.

@oldirtybearon: I think you should stop making claims about what makes me or anyone else feel uncomfortable, sexually or otherwise. If something makes me uncomfortable, I'll make sure to tell you. You're not even remotely talking about the same thing as I am either. Cultural conditioning has not told me cleavage or big breasts are wrong, in fact it has tried teaching me it's the other way around. We're not exactly living in some Calvinistic paradise here. If you consumed any media throughout your life I think that should be abundantly clear to you.

Also, big muscles aren't even remotely related to this. It's completely useless to bring that up. Get back to me when Zangief's trunks are so tight you see a clear outline of his private parts through it at all times and when the camera zooms in on it at the start/end of every round or during his special moves.

@giantstalker: Overbearing political correctness sure is annoying isn't it. I can't stand it myself. Even worse are the people who write off any form of criticism of the current status quo as being hypersensitive or wanting to censure others.

@theht: I am extremely anti censorship of any kind. I would never advocate not allowing people to criticise something.

Because she's a strong, independent woman who don't need no man of course! :v

@itwongo: I don't know about crossing any lines but I am of the opinion that they definitely made efforts to make her even more pandering than she used to be. That's what my post was trying to illustrate.

@hassun: This is what I was referring to:

@oldirtybearon: In storytelling in general, realistic depictions of characters personality, that is: a character that has wants and needs, who show intent based on the type of logic that drive all actual living beings (like self-preservation as an easy example) , are generally held to a higher standard than any other part of their character. Depictions of characters in media that can be mistaken for actual people are also generally more highly regarded because of this. It's in our culture, or at least, the cultures I know of.

Supposedly, it's because making a character that adheres to all these rules, instead of making one who's mind and actions simply adhere to the whim of the creator or the story they are trying to tell, is much harder than to not do so.

Basically, realistic characterizations (and that includes looks too, since a characters appearence is a factor of their character) are more important to people than realistic depictions of a characters abilities. This is also partly because we in our culture have a history of "poor/bad" representations of different subsets of people. Stuff that lead to predjudice or worse. That combines to make characterization a pretty touchy subject for a lot of people.

All that said, I don't really have a problem with this specific character as of now.

@theht: Yeah, that's a stupid argument. Starvinggamer has already more or less explained why it's a stupid argument as well. It's basically a way to wipe away any sort of criticism on something by saying something is fictional. Nearly all fictional universes themselves also operate by certain rules. Most of them even operate on mostly the same rules as ours for a multitude of reasons (easier for the writer, easier for the reader to immerse him/herself in the fiction, etc.)

"Ryu throws fireballs thus criticising hypersexualisation of a character is baseless" is something that kills discussion outright so that is fits your message about "saying you that you can't criticize a character's appearance?" far more than anything I said.

EDIT: I just realised you might have misunderstood my original post. The "People throw fireballs in this game so you can't criticise the visual design of the character!"line was supposed to be me giving an example of a poor argument, hence the quotation marks. I now realise it could be seen as me saying that myself. Sorry about that.

So far all the female characters in this game have gameplay and styles I like. I can't wait for the trailer reveal to see if this is the first character I want to spend time with. The screenshots look pretty great but until I see her in motion I can't decide. I'm looking forward to Ryu, Zangief and maybe Necalli. Now that I think of it. I like the entire roster with the exception of Vega.

How you get to the "you just don't like big boobs" part after reading any of the posts in this thread is beyond me to be honest. As far as diversity in character designs goes, there is more to a character than ethnicity and culture. It's weird to me that I even have to state this, Hassun explained in this very thread how different the perception of a character can be depending on context, portrayal, outfit etc. The "why do you care" argument is similarly strange. You're on a videogame message board. I play fighting games, Street Fighter in particular. I will play Street Fighter V as well. Ergo I'm fairly interested in the character designs and will give my opinion on them in threads like this. Why are you being so defensive about this? It's not like my criticism was totally unreasonable or based on "shaky principles or bad logic" but on personal preference (that more than one person in this thread seems to share), which is why your analogy to black lives matter is quite frankly ridiculous.

Well this looks like a cool character, I'm all for the mix of electricity stuff and BJJ can't wait for the trailer to see it in mo- oh we're not discussing possible gameplay? Just jumping straight to how big her boobs are then, ok.....

No, no, that isn't why I brought it up. You associated him with the argument that "people throw fireballs in this game so you can't criticise the visual design of the character!" which I'm pretty sure is misrepresentive of @oldirtybearon's position. He was never saying you can't ever criticize a character's visual design for one reason or another. He was targeting a specific reason that seemed to not jive with the very criticism it sought to support.

Nonetheless, I think the solid rebuttal @starvinggamer offered also shows why his actual argument doesn't really kill the discussion.

@hassun - Was that your question for Broly on the Best of 3 Daily Dot show this week? Crossover.

Anyway, I'm def down to try Laura. I'm Brazilian and practice BJJ so I hope it translates in a fun way to an overtop game. I actually think it's crazy that SF being a Japanese game has not had a Judo (which I also practice) character despite having had several grapplers, but I digress...

On the subject of bewbs, I think you are all missing the point...Capcom didn't do their research: The statistic might be a few years old, but at somepoint recently this was true - In terms of number of plastic surgeries conducted, the USA is #1 in the world, and Brazil is #2. For the US, the most common procedure is breast AUGMENTATION. In Brazil....breast REDUCTION.

She should have had a bigger butt.

@starvinggamer: Alright, you make a solid point. I don't share your views on it because impractical clothing, impractical movement, nor impractical, unrealistic fighting game moves bug me, but I can see how they would bug somebody who does care about those things. I understand where you're coming from and I'm glad we could hash this out. My thing is, a lot of people throwing around similar arguments, I find, don't really think too hard about why they think that way. Add to the fact that you've got other people shouting down criticism of criticism (lol) and you're in a situation where nobody is really thinking critically anymore.

But hey, you don't like it, I don't mind it, and the world keeps spinning. Hope you enjoy the game, duder.

@jacksukeru: I see what you're saying, but I'm having trouble understanding how it applies in this situation. Laura from what we know is a copopoporea fighter with some BJJ thrown in, and her outfit is based on that style (if she wasn't female, she'd just wear the pants for instance), so there's a headscratcher moment for me when I see people complaining that it's somehow skimpy or out of place. It's just... odd. Like people are bringing their own prejudices to something that, if gender bent, wouldn't ruffle nary a feather. It's just weird, you know?

@hadoken101: If you read the thread you know we definitely didn't jump straight to the big boobs!

@theht: As far as I can see that's where he was going with that. Sorry if I misunderstood.

@thiago123: I'll reply to that in the FGC thread. We've gotten far enough off-topic on this one. :V