Soo....how about that trans/homosexual dialogue (slight spoilers)

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#1 Posted by hbkdx12 (779 posts) -

Anybody else hear any of the ambient dialogue and how it refers to trans/homosexuality?
 
In the terminus mission, i went over to the alleyway on the right of the building and there's a goon standing right at the entrance and i had my electrician disguise on and i walk in front of him and he's like "Aren't you pretty. You're pretty aint ya? The things i'd like to do to you" I'm paraphrasing but it was something to that effect. 
 
Then in the hunter and the hunted level, i'm in chinatowna and i'm in my store clerk outfit and i go to head off the guy that goes down into the basement and i'm where the cop is blocking the stairway but im crouched in front of the dumpster. so the target walks his path and sees me crouched and says something like "look at you. guess we know who's getting bent over the counter tonight" I don't do anything then a few seconds pass and he's like "seriously get up your creeping everyone out" So i stand up in fear that he might blow my cover or something and he says "Congrats ladies and gentleman, the transexual finally stands up" and then continues on his path. 
 
Then cruising on gamefaqs i saw this 
 
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/943497-hitman-absolution/64714949
 
Granted that last one is just a bit tongue and cheek but those other two were pretty overt and borderline creepy. 
 
Anyone experience anything like this? I'm not familiar with hitman lore, is this suppose to be some kind of dig at he fact that he's genetically altered or something?

#2 Posted by Fearbeard (834 posts) -

Probably just asshole characters getting asshole dialogue. If Agent 47 said something like that it would be wierd but I don't see anything wrong with making the characters you kill unlikable with dialogue like that.

#3 Edited by Animasta (14719 posts) -

dude what if that gamefaqs post is true than that is some offensive ass dialogue.

guess I'm not playing hitman absolution (not that I was realistically going to until it goes to 5$ anyway but man fuck that shit)

#4 Edited by BisonHero (7035 posts) -

@hbkdx12: They (the developers) are probably trying to play it for laughs, because some developers apparently have incredibly non-diverse staff, and make surprisingly offensive jokes for a company employing hundreds of people that surely must have PR people that should be looking out for this sort of thing.

Like the part where apparently NO ONE at Eidos Montreal has ever met a black person from this century, resulting in that racist caricature of a black woman in the first city hub in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

So my guess is that no one on the writing staff of IO Interactive has any concept of modern attitudes towards the LGBT community, and they think that any reference to transgendered people has to be played for laughs as if we're back in the 1960s.

#5 Posted by Laurentech (127 posts) -

Ok.

#6 Posted by BisonHero (7035 posts) -

I genuinely respect your contributions to the forums. You're opinionated, but well spoken. That being said:

@Animasta said:

dude what that gamefaqs post if true

Are you drunk? We both know you're better than that.

#7 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -

When is shit like this going to die? It's only funny to 5th graders.

#8 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@BisonHero said:

I genuinely respect your contributions to the forums. You're opinionated, but well spoken. That being said:

@Animasta said:

dude what that gamefaqs post if true

Are you drunk? We both know you're better than that.

I'm tired shut up D:

#9 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

I am outraged and demand more progress. I will write my respective senator

#10 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@TheHumanDove said:

I am outraged and demand more progress. I will write my respective senator

sorry for wanting to not have offensive and stereotype perpetuating characters represent me in video games, I really do apologize

#11 Posted by hbkdx12 (779 posts) -
@BisonHero: yeah i've chalked it up to some kind of non mandated sensitivity training as well
#12 Edited by IzzyGraze (854 posts) -

I'm not sure I understand. A bad guy saying something creepy. Isn't it their job to not be likeable? And as for the strip club. Isn't it kind of funny to imagine a bunch of desparate horny guys getting their rocks off to guys unexpectedly?

I don't really see it as a LGBT thing. Did that stripper get a sex change because they didn't feel that their genitals fell in line with their sexual identity? Probably not. Is that guy saying he wants to have sex with you because he loves you and wants to do dirty things to you? I don't think so. People in prison don't say "you got a pretty mouth" because they want to compliment you and hope you feel the same about them as they do about you.

I haven't played the game though and don't know the reads.

@BisonHero said:

@hbkdx12: They (the developers) are probably trying to play it for laughs, because some developers apparently have incredibly non-diverse staff, and make surprisingly offensive jokes for a company employing hundreds of people that surely must have PR people that should be looking out for this sort of thing.

So my guess is that no one on the writing staff of IO Interactive has any concept of modern attitudes towards the LGBT community, and they think that any reference to transgendered people has to be played for laughs as if we're back in the 1960s.

But on the other hand I can see how a trans person could easily be offended by that. It's a cheap laugh. I don't really see it as making fun of trans people but more making fun of the imaginary patrons of that strip club. I don't find it that offensive because the characters in hitman games are never serious characters. It would be like one of the strippers from the saints row games saying one of those lines.

But yeah, I can see why it would be offensive and It would probably be better just to keep it out.

Edit:

Just reread the cop one. Yeah that's kind of fucked up. I guess the cops are kind of the enemies in this game but that's not really in character. I expect that from the goon. But a cop? The cop should just be some random dude/lady.

Edit2:

Ok, so I've slept now and reread the the first post again. So I guess it was the target and not the cop who sad the bad things. So yeah, it's just a bad dude saying bad things so you don't feel bad for killing him.

#13 Posted by Marnox (328 posts) -

As a bald person I don´t like the idea that all bald people are proffesional hitmen.

...People get too easily offended.

VIDJA GAMES!

#14 Posted by BisonHero (7035 posts) -

@IzzyGraze: Yeah, I'm not like outraged by what they say, but it's just so lazy. It's like "...Yeah, I get it. Looks like a lady, has a penis, that incongruity is supposed to be instant comedy". But I'm not fucking 10 years old anymore, and I sure hope 10-year-olds aren't the sole demographic that IO Interactive is writing their games towards. Though the reviews are blasting the character, dialogue, and plot in Absolution so hard that maybe they are writing something that only 10-year-olds can appreciate.

Also, the target randomly calling you a transsexual because Agent 47 was crouching is just like "Huh? What? ...Why?" Are transsexuals known for their Sam-Fisher-like stealth crouching?

#15 Edited by AndrewB (7689 posts) -

I'm fine with it. That's pretty much the kind of treatment a lot of people get in real life, isn't it? I heard that first line of dialogue (twice/two different retrys) in Terminus, and I chocked it up to these guys being the scumbags of the Earth. They're "nameless hired goon #1. There are a lot of dumbasses in the real world too.

That second bit is actually kind of funny. Derogatory, but funny simply because they went so far to code that.

Oh, but yeah, overall I agree it's not the greatest. The whole "oh, that chick is really a duuuuuude!!! Penis!" and then the one guy who's always like "I'd still totally..." well, I'm not really sure who thinks that's funny anymore, especially the people old enough to be playing a Hitman game.

#16 Posted by commonoutlier (136 posts) -

@AndrewB said:

I'm fine with it. That's pretty much the kind of treatment a lot of people get in real life, isn't it?

Uuhh, just because it the "kind of treatment people get in real life" doesn't make it automatically okay...

I'm not saying that a game or any media can't portray the hardships or horrible treatment of a particular group of people, since it can be useful to address the problem or start a meaningful dialogue about it, bringing the issue into the light...but it shouldn't be for laughs (or in the very least never in ways the victims are the the ones being made fun of).

With that said, it's seems that the developers were trying to be creepy, but it is incredibly frustrating to me that it seems they're almost relying on people's discomfort of certain types of sexuality to do so.

#17 Posted by KillerClaw (70 posts) -

Please, keep your "I'm offended by something that effects me in no way" attitude away from video games. You are encouraging censorship that does nothing but stifle creativity. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. You have every right to not play the game because you are uncomfortable about it, but complaining and claiming it shouldn't be in the game is just selfish.

#18 Posted by Vinny_Says (5721 posts) -

Aww we missed you C Delores Tucker. How you been? How's Tipper Gore doing these days?

#19 Posted by AndrewB (7689 posts) -

@commonoutlier said:

@AndrewB said:

I'm fine with it. That's pretty much the kind of treatment a lot of people get in real life, isn't it?

Uuhh, just because it the "kind of treatment people get in real life" doesn't make it automatically okay...

I don't mean to say it's okay in real life. I meant what I said, but also in a mostly disgusted "tone" that doesn't translate to text. The examples I've seen from the game are okay in the sense that they fit with the general themes I've seen so far of Agent 47 dealing with lowlife douchebags who generally act that way in real life. If there are any more than the examples I've seen in this thread, then that's a little much, and leads me to questioning the level of maturity of the incidental dialog writer(s) who work(s) for IO. I agree that every person who believes these sorts of things are broadly acceptable sets back the progress towards equality and acceptance. However, I also feel that people need to know when to lighten up and let one slide even the joke hits personally at their own expense.

The only one of those that feels like a joke is the second example from the OP, and like I said, the only reason I'd find to laugh at that is the general sexual humor that they spent actual time coding into the game.

#20 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5818 posts) -

eh, it's silly but I don't relly think it's offensive.

getting offended over things like this is pointless.

#21 Edited by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can only piss me off. Let it go.

#22 Edited by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@KillerClaw said:

Please, keep your "I'm offended by something that effects me in no way" attitude away from video games. You are encouraging censorship that does nothing but stifle creativity. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. You have every right to not play the game because you are uncomfortable about it, but complaining and claiming it shouldn't be in the game is just selfish.

oh yeah? than what does it bring to the game. How does it enhance your play experience. that gamefaq post could easily have been changed to "Oh yeah, I have herpes" which would have made her equally undesirable (way more so in fact) without being offensive.

also you will notice that I never said anything that said others shouldn't play it because of this.

also also this isn't creativity this is the fucking offensive shit that's been around since the 80's.

#23 Posted by believer258 (12186 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@KillerClaw said:

Please, keep your "I'm offended by something that effects me in no way" attitude away from video games. You are encouraging censorship that does nothing but stifle creativity. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. You have every right to not play the game because you are uncomfortable about it, but complaining and claiming it shouldn't be in the game is just selfish.

oh yeah? than what does it bring to the game. How does it enhance your play experience. that gamefaq post could easily have been changed to "Oh yeah, I have herpes" which would have made her equally undesirable (way more so in fact) without being offensive.

also you will notice that I never said anything that said others shouldn't play it because of this.

also also this isn't creativity this is the fucking offensive shit that's been around since the 80's.

I'd rather be deeply offended than horribly censored. Can you say "Hay's Code"?

Also, wouldn't that be offensive to people with herpes?

#24 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@Animasta said:

@KillerClaw said:

Please, keep your "I'm offended by something that effects me in no way" attitude away from video games. You are encouraging censorship that does nothing but stifle creativity. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. You have every right to not play the game because you are uncomfortable about it, but complaining and claiming it shouldn't be in the game is just selfish.

oh yeah? than what does it bring to the game. How does it enhance your play experience. that gamefaq post could easily have been changed to "Oh yeah, I have herpes" which would have made her equally undesirable (way more so in fact) without being offensive.

also you will notice that I never said anything that said others shouldn't play it because of this.

also also this isn't creativity this is the fucking offensive shit that's been around since the 80's.

I'd rather be deeply offended than horribly censored. Can you say "Hay's Code"?

Also, wouldn't that be offensive to people with herpes?

do you think the people with herpes want herpes? I think they will agree that having herpes fucking sucks.

also there was plenty of shit, even in that QL, that was way less offensive and just as nasty (that lady berating that dude over the phone). so it's not like by taking this out they make this game the most unoffensive game ever made.

also is the reason you'd rather be deeply offended because you don't really have something like this you can be offended about?

#25 Posted by believer258 (12186 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@believer258 said:

@Animasta said:

@KillerClaw said:

Please, keep your "I'm offended by something that effects me in no way" attitude away from video games. You are encouraging censorship that does nothing but stifle creativity. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. You have every right to not play the game because you are uncomfortable about it, but complaining and claiming it shouldn't be in the game is just selfish.

oh yeah? than what does it bring to the game. How does it enhance your play experience. that gamefaq post could easily have been changed to "Oh yeah, I have herpes" which would have made her equally undesirable (way more so in fact) without being offensive.

also you will notice that I never said anything that said others shouldn't play it because of this.

also also this isn't creativity this is the fucking offensive shit that's been around since the 80's.

I'd rather be deeply offended than horribly censored. Can you say "Hay's Code"?

Also, wouldn't that be offensive to people with herpes?

do you think the people with herpes want herpes? I think they will agree that having herpes fucking sucks.

also there was plenty of shit, even in that QL, that was way less offensive and just as nasty (that lady berating that dude over the phone). so it's not like by taking this out they make this game the most unoffensive game ever made.

also is the reason you'd rather be deeply offended because you don't really have something like this you can be offended about?

Maybe I don't have much to be offended about, I'm a fairly laid back dude when it comes to media saying stuff, but are you honestly telling me that you'd rather have an amended version of the Hay's Code reinstated that covers all media? Would you like any form of expression held back by the ideas of a select few? No! That's horrible! said it would stifle creativity, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Everyone has a right to say what they want to, even if it is morally reprehensible. You also have a right to say something back, but you don't have a right to prevent anyone from saying something in the first place.

#26 Posted by Village_Guy (2662 posts) -

@Animasta: Maybe you should go to sleep, you seem to get really pissed off over something that isn't worth it. Sure it sucks, but really in the end it doesn't change anything or anyone, it wouldn't make the world a better or worse place anyway.

Online
#27 Edited by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -

I don't get it, are people offended by gay criminals or transsexual strippers or something? I don't really see what's offensive about either of those things, then again I'm not from the country.

Or is it just because the humor is a little crass? If that's the case Hitman has always has a sense of humor like this and this isn't the worst thing they've done.

@believer258: It's the Hays' code, sorry can't resist the temptation to drop that knowledge.

@Animasta: If you think gay people can't be bad guys or transsexuals can't be strippers you are as bad as someone making fun of them.

#28 Edited by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@Village_Guy said:

@Animasta: Maybe you should go to sleep, you seem to get really pissed off over something that isn't worth it. Sure it sucks, but really in the end it doesn't change anything or anyone, it wouldn't make the world a better or worse place anyway.

oh I know, I just really hate that argument of "people have the right to be offensive!". just as I have the right to call that argument really really dumb. It's like, not a whole lot of people here care because it's not something they have to deal with and any arguments I get are usually will be "well just stop being offended" which are usually said by straight white guys who (most of the time) have literally nothing to be offended about.

@MikkaQ: not even what I was saying but THANKS for putting words in my mouth. She said "I'm a dude!" That's literally the exact opposite of what a MtF transsexual is.

#29 Posted by McGhee (6075 posts) -

I could comment on this topic but my experience is that certain people have no perspective, and even the most innocuous use of the "g" word could get one banned on this sight. So I guess we must pretend that such "g" people and behavior does not exist. I'm sure that's exactly how such people wish to be treated. -__-

#30 Posted by Village_Guy (2662 posts) -

@Animasta: Yeah, it is a silly argument about the right to be offensive, and most people who think it is okay are never going to explain why they think so.

I, myself, are a straight white guy who (besides liking My Little Pony and being autistic) have absolutely nothing to be offended by, but I still hate the attitude some people have about these kind of offensive things. And really I get kinda mad sometimes, but I know it doesn't help anyone to get mad over it.

It is a fight that can't be won, simply because the other side doesn't care, and they only like it whenever somebody gets mad.

Online
#31 Posted by leebmx (2235 posts) -

There is some bad stuff in video games which gets me pissed off. I think the way they represent women is continually pretty poor, however I can't really get that annoyed about this. I think it is expected that everyone in the Hitman games are pretty sleazy unpleasant characters and this seems in keeping with most of it. Hitman has also always had that kind of shitty frat boy humour going on - its never exactly been subtle.

#32 Posted by blueduck (964 posts) -

So the bad guy is saying things that offend you?

#33 Edited by studnoth1n (222 posts) -

video games are basically cartoons. nothing is ever represented in a subtle, sophisticated, clever manner. it's typically overt, heavy-handed caricatures, used as indexes for their real world counterpart. on some level, you have to expect as much given the tastes and sensibilities of those writing the material. sorry if that sounds snobbish, but it's the truth and you goddamn well know it!

oh, and don't expect that absence of sophistication NOT to extend and attempt to grapple with the vast, complexity that is human sexuality. the most dense and incurious people are usually some of the most ambitious, unfortunately...

#34 Posted by Bocam (3822 posts) -
#35 Posted by commonoutlier (136 posts) -

@AndrewB: Ah, okay. Yeah, that is one of the problems of communication with only text, I'm glad you clarified.

I think since I haven't played the game itself it is also harder for me to fully know the extent of all of this, thus easier for me to assume the worst. I may eventually play the game to see how it is for myself (after I eventually finish Blood Money, though). I'll admit, too, that humor, even at one's own expense, isn't always a bad thing (the whole "a society in which everyone can make fun of everyone else and laugh together is a truly tolerant one")...although I do believe though the jokes must involve understanding rather than ignorance...so I suppose I'll have to wait and see it in game to decide for myself.

#36 Posted by MeldingPlague (43 posts) -

Pointless vulgarity and violence in games seems to be on the rise recently. Any time you're presented with a "goon" or "henchmen," developers go to extreme lengths to color them as the scum of the earth. Maybe it's offensive language about transgender people, or attempted sexual assault, or just blatant stereotyping. There's little care given to context, as long as they're unlikable.

Sometimes I wonder about these kinds of things and what they say about people who play games. More specifically, it makes me wonder what exactly developers feel is "too crass" for their intended demographic. It doesn't seem like there's a whole lot that's off limits. The thing that really strikes me is that these are AAA developers with layers upon layers of corporate bureaucracy to wade through just to implement or cut this-feature-or-that. Still, the blatantly offensive material somehow makes it through. I'm not saying it's a corporation's responsibility to censor (while you'd think they'd want to), it's just a curious thing to think about.

But I look at it this way: the common argument seems to be that we should all be able to deal with the vulgarity and violence because we are adults. We bought an 18+ rated game, so we should know what torture looks likes and how swear words sound. We should be mature enough, right? Personally, I think, as mature adults who enjoy these big, spectacular games, it should be the opposite. We should be asking more from developers. Just because we know the "naughty words" sound doesn't mean that it makes sense contextually. Worse yet, vulgar writing with no situational context leads the player to believe that that's just how those developers talk and that the opinions expressed are genuine. I'd like to think the people developing the games I love are better than that. When I hear such out of touch one-liners rattled off so casually under the guise of comedy, though, it gets hard to keep the faith.

#37 Posted by MindOST (215 posts) -

What I learned in this topic: Free speech means that you're not allowed to criticize a game for being tasteless, and that having a problem with things like transphobia means you're in favor of censorship.

#38 Posted by Incapability (216 posts) -

I laugh every single time a redneck guard calls me out, saying "Hey, prettyboy! Yeah, you're pretty, aren't you!".

I can't say I've heard... any slurs other than that, but the redneck guards are just being provocative. Don't read into it.

#39 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -
@MindOST

What I learned in this topic: Free speech means that you're not allowed to criticize a game for being tasteless, and that having a problem with things like transphobia means you're in favor of censorship.

#40 Posted by XChairmanDrekX (310 posts) -

People saying vulgar and offensive things in a strip club...

WHO WOULDA THUNK?

#41 Posted by Phatmac (5727 posts) -

I don't think we should try take a game that has sexy nuns seriously. It's just a crude joke that I don't much care for.

#42 Posted by dabe (299 posts) -

@studnoth1n said:

video games are basically cartoons. nothing is ever represented in a subtle, sophisticated, clever manner. it's typically overt, heavy-handed caricatures, used as indexes for their real world counterpart. on some level, you have to expect as much given the tastes and sensibilities of those writing the material. sorry if that sounds snobbish, but it's the truth and you goddamn well know it!

oh, and don't expect that absence of sophistication NOT to extend and attempt to grapple with the vast, complexity that is human sexuality. the most dense and incurious people are usually some of the most ambitious, unfortunately...

This is true.

Also, if we're talking realism, slurs against transgendered people should be in the game surely. As we live in a reality where harassment, abuse and demonising of people different from you is the norm. It's a shame if they play it off as a transient and lazy joke, but I can't say fully whether that is the case or not without playing the game (which I won't anyways, writing aside).

#43 Posted by JasonR86 (9726 posts) -

Something like this makes me not want to play the game. It can exist but I don't have to take part.

#44 Edited by Ghost_Cat (1472 posts) -

@FancySoapsMan said:

eh, it's silly but I don't relly think it's offensive.

getting offended over things like this is pointless.

Yeah I don't get how these bits of dialog ruffled some people. They are just funny random stuff a player comes across, nothing more to be interpret. But since we are on this subject of Absolution dialog, and if anyone is interested, check out the level with the shooting range. The IO team has placed some dialog that pokes fun of people (and a little of themselves) who found IO's writing (particularly Kane & Lynch) offensive, which I thought was really funny.

#45 Posted by SASnake (374 posts) -

FOMG they say things about homosexuality/transgender! you just cant do that! NO! THEY ARENT REAL PEOPLE WHO EXIST IN THE WORLD!. Hurry everyone lets slap both our hands onto our cheeks and scream!...Seriously people...some of you folks are too fucking serious.

#46 Posted by DoctorWelch (2765 posts) -

Oh no, god forbid a bad character in a game say some bad shit because...ya know...he's a bad dude and they never would say something bad, that just wouldn't make sense.

So, you're telling me we don't have a problem with a psychopathic villan that murders random people for no other reason than personal pleasure, but as soon as one of his henchmen says some one off homosexual comment this game is the fucking devil and whoever put that in there should be crucified?

Reacting poorly to this kind of stuff is the reason why no one ever tries to handle anything controversial or deep in a video game. Stupid fuckers get all up in arms about it simply because it exists, not because they have any logical explanation as to why it's offensive.

#47 Posted by BlatantNinja23 (928 posts) -

just an asshole character, saying asshole things, to be an asshole. It's meant to be offensive, but not to actually offend.

#48 Posted by Counterclockwork87 (743 posts) -

People who get offended by stuff like this are weak, insecure people. It's a bad guy playing a bad guy, that's like getting offended at Schindler's list because the Nazis call Jews terrible names. It's not like Agent 47 is saying this, because believe me, he never would.

#49 Posted by Milkman (17316 posts) -

I'm more confused than anything. Do transsexuals crouch a lot? What?

#50 Posted by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

Sounds like those are assholes saying asshole things.

I'm always _incredibly impressed_ when people assume anything that a character says in a game is what the developers "actually feel". When Anders flirts with the main character, regardless of gender, it's not Anders being a bisexual flirt, it's "the game forcing you to be gay". A character tries to sexually assault Lara Croft, its not them being an evil rapist you need to fight, its the developers "are creating a rape-friendly culture". Obviously they all hate women, oh wait, the scene was written by a woman. Fuck, eh?

Also, that black street lady has less to do with the developers being racists and more to do with a voice actress failing to understand dialectical differences between street people and 1800s slaves.

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