Maybe it's just me reading into things, but it seems pretty damn obvious that you're playing as a Nazi in Luftrausers. Maybe you could say that they're just a sort of generic WWII group styled like those wacky genocidal fascists (like HYDRA in the Captain America movie) but even still, it seems a bit odd.

German title and german(ish) plane names. Super cliche Nazi characters. Insignias reminiscent of Nazi design. And I just saw in the Quicklook that when you blow up the huge thing in hard mode you see a cutscene of an exploding guy who is pretty clearly Churchill.

So... am I crazy? Is this just supposed to be obvious and I feel like I'm onto something that everyone already knows? Probably. But what do you folks think?

I think you may be getting the German Luftwaffe and the Nazi Party confused a bit.

this game is worse than Hitler (well it's pretty aggravating when i keep dying and only rarely top 2k)

I do ask myself that sometimes, but no, I wouldn't say I am.

I'm a Nazi? You're a Nazi!

I do Nazi what you mean, can you heil-light some more examples? I'm not saying you're not reich about that, but I'd say the character is just a Luftwaffe pilot who flies around and Schutzstaffel. I don't think Vlambeer were Goering in that direction.

We're all Nazi's, man.

@shagge:

@joshwent: Blitz a living.

It's like how in The Castle Doctrine you play white men who use their middle names as they attempt to stop 'burglars' from entering their homes but it's totes not about serial killers.

Impeccable argue-stapo-ment.............. nazis.

O_O

The wehrmacht were not all nazis. But yeah this thread is over anyway thanks to @shagge

Yeah. I'm all about distinguishing soldiers from the potentially horrible ideals their governments say they're fighting for. But even so, it strikes me as odd in this game. Something like TrenchedIron Brigade was drenched in American macho war patriotism, but it was clearly satirical. Luftrausers is pretty cartoony, but you playing as a likely Axis pilot isn't really part of the gag.

Oh man, I fucked up, guys. I only made six puns in this thread, when I clearly should have gone for...

...

Nein.

I eighty-height you?

I'm not good at this

Alright, you made my day.

Everyone stole what I wanted to say and

I hate love you so damn much.

Nazis are often fun dangerous ruthless villains. They're fast in terms of conquest and battle but also smart and extremely resourceful. The only thing they can't handle is a Russian winter. Who knows what they'll bring to the field. I think there's more to them conceptually than just being thugs to point guns at and Luftrausers captures that extremely well.

Not sure if this applies to anything here but pretty awesome comment from the developer.

http://www.vlambeer.com/2014/04/06/response-to-recent-luftrausers-concerns/

Patrick also wrote something on his tumblr: http://patrickklepek.tumblr.com/post/82006821614/help-me-out-i-dont-understand-how-people-could-be

I only hope more people follow in @shagge shoes and Giantbomb can one day rival RockPaperShotgun pun threads.

Hopefully! RockPaperShotgun may one day be overthrown as the pun-capital of the internet. They might never see it coming, now that they are so kampftorble in that position.

@joshwent: Would it bother you if you were playing as a Nazi pilot? I suppose that's the only real question or concern being raised here. Would it bother you to find out you're playing as an Axis pilot and are ultimately working toward the end of "the bad guys"?

It's the only question I can think of as to why anyone would be uncomfortable about this, which is why I ask if that's what you're getting at.

Maybe. Who gives a shit. Game owns.

People must get tired of those lame lines about "empathy" at some point. I wonder if he realizes that using that word in the most platitudinous way imaginable doesn't actually amount to saying anything. It only shows how perfectly fine he is with validating every wail and moan from the kind of people who are determined to be offended. I don't know whether to laugh or be annoyed at his summary of the tweets that end with "the cure for this is education/awareness/sensitivity" as "underscoring the subtext of the aesthetic content in Luftrausers."

Nope. In fact, I think playing as, say, a German or even Japanese soldier in WWII could be fascinating and at least offer some unique gameplay opportunities that we've never seen so far in games based in that period. And as others had already mentioned in that thread, it's vital to remember that the majority of those soldiers had no real idealist motivation to fight for their government's causes. They were just people trying to help their families and countries, and in many cases had no other choice but to sign up.

What struck me as odd, and was therefore the reason I made this thread, was just that no one was mentioning what seemed really obvious in this game; you're fighting for some Axis-themed group. And also that the game offered no real reason for it. Not that a game ever has to explain itself, but to put the player in a position where all their arcady flyin' fun might be working to further some kind of pixel art genocide seems to at least warrant some specificity.

Also, it was even odder considering that Rami of Vlambeer is a, well, as Patrick put it, "an intensely empathetic figure". (I'd say more like ravenously politically correct) But nonetheless, for a dude who's so outspoken about his views on certain social ills to quietly position his players as Nazis was a bit... unexpected.

This is more or less my issue with every one of these "controversies." Not every single person who has an issue is suddenly unimpeachable or has a legitimate concern. The response to this in particular should basically amount to nothing more than "Yes, I understand your concerns, I'm not glorifying fucking Nazis. Moving on."

Have a little empathy, and educate yourself. Feelings are malleable and very subjective spirits.

When we realize that the only real criticism is that we don't criticize enough, the interpretation we formed as valid no longer corresponds to socio-binary standards, bringing forth the advent of an empathetic response of considerable variation.

@joshwent said:

I agree, which is why I took umbrage with a tweet someone linked to in this thread. This idea that there are certain subjects or themes that should never be touched on or explored because "fascination is the issue" bothers me. It's not that I want to play as a Nazi or a genocidal maniac, more that I think placing the player into the shoes of unsavoury figures can do a lot towards reaching some sort of understanding. I'd argue that "empathy" isn't the issue, understanding is. In that context, it's not hard to imagine a developer who is, as you said, "ravenously politically correct" would take a subject like this head on.

In any event, I've never actually played Luftrausers as there didn't seem to be any real point to it (the oft-maligned "what's my motivation?" is pretty critical to whether I play a game or not), but I'm rather glad that there's something to it, at least. If anything, I don't think people should focus on "why didn't this come up before now?" and instead focus on "why is this the way it is?" Of course that's what you're doing, so, uh, carry on.

Thread of the day.

At what point am I as a german allowed to be offended by all those "kill german soldiers"-themed games? Can I have my discussion about how Wolfenstein is really offensive to germans? ... I guess not.

I'm half gipsy and I love this game. Something is not right here...

You could if you really want to. If you find those games offensive or have concerns about the new Wolfenstein, you have every right to express that. If you do, maybe we can discuss it. :)

Sorry but pretty much never. It's not your fault of course, but thats how it is.

I can't agree with that. Plenty of people have been able to express disliking the "kill Russian soldiers" or "kill Middle Eastern soldiers" themed games. It's perfectly understandable for some people to also feel uncomfortable when they see "kill German soldiers" games.

This is sort of the point of criticism. We're trying to move toward a point where everyone can express whatever they like about games. We may then disagree with many people, but through people expressing themselves, we can as a community grow in understanding different perspectives on the games and culture we enjoy.

I don't currently share any discomfort with "kill German soldiers" objectives, but through him being honest and explaining how he feels about it, I may gain a better understanding of why he and others might feel that way.

If the discussion is - can he as a modern day German feel offended by games that continue depicting German soldiers as the "bad" guys? Then yes, I suppose he can. If were talking about how the world will perceive them in light of past history? No, not for a while. As a person whose parents hail from Eastern Europe, and specifically Poland, I can tell you the negative emotions associated with both Germans and Russians are still very much a real thing and people are not going to just forget and start to think about what the German soldiers felt when they were obliterating my parents country because it was in the way. As I said, the younger generation has nothing to do with that time period, but we need a lot more time to pass before the world as a whole will forget.

I don't think anyone needs to forget. What happened is what happened.

Those who still feel concern and anger regarding what happened are perfectly justified in doing so; there's no need for them to ever ignore or forget what has happened. But as a human being, @2headedninja can't help what makes him feel uncomfortable or offended in a medium he enjoys. If that's how he feels, he should express it and try to explain why he responds as he does.

Now, whether he'll find many who agree with him is another issue, but that's just the nature of expression and criticism. Regardless of how receptive others may be, if he responds to a game with discomfort when he sees a "kill German soldiers" objective, he certainly has reason to say as much. I'd be curious to better understand his perspective on it.

There will always be villains, and there are reasons that certain tropes persist in videogame villains. I may be personally okay with many of these tropes, but I would be interested in hearing how he feels about them. Even if we still don't end up feeling a similar way after he explains, we can at least better understand how and why we respond differently to these aspects of games.

I remember when games used to mean fun and escapism for me and my buds. I'm not faulting anyone for raising concerns that they obviously feel the need to raise. It's a person's right to criticize I guess. It just seems like every single time a new game comes out, there's some political issue with the existence of said game. I understand a LARGE spectrum of people are offended by a LARGE spectrum of content, but man, this new decade is a bummer for people just trying to have a good time and play some video games. There's a ton of video games out there, like so many, you couldn't even count them, I promise. And not every single one of them is going to appeal to you. Whether or not you have a more noble or justifiable reason for disliking a game doesn't really matter to me. I feel you. Things constantly offend me on a moral or ethical level but I understand that maybe there's a lot of people that would get enjoyment out of those kinds of things. I don't know, there's no winning argument here. Things are turbulent and it's hard to relax when everyone's got an issue with everyone else.

@truthtellah: Well that is more or less what I said. He personally has a right to feel however he wants. But to answer his question of "..at what point am I as a german allowed to be offended by all those 'kill german soldiers'-themed games?" the answer, from the perspective of time and the world as whole, not for a long time. If were talking about any modern game then yah sure it's definitely not right. Any games involving WW2? Sorry, Germans were the aggressors and whether the individual soldiers agreed with their government (as I'm sure many didn't and were forcefully drafted into the army) becomes somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Way too many horrific events took place during that war largely due to German forces for anyone to realistically want to explore how those soldiers felt.

I think you're basically just describing the increasing voice of more gamers. As you said yourself:

...there's a ton of video games out there, like so many, you couldn't count them, I promise. And not every single one of them is going to appeal to you. Whether or not you have a more noble or justifiable reason for disliking a game doesn't really matter to me. I feel you. Things constantly offend me on a moral or ethical level but I understand that maybe there's a lot of people that would get enjoyment out of those kinds of things.

I can understand some nostalgia for more innocent times. Like how, as we get older, many things in life feel more complicated. But there's a reason we grow up. It's okay that we grow up. People have been slowly realizing that they can express themselves more about this medium they care about. It's increasingly okay for them to voice what they don't like or how different things make them feel. We don't need to return to a quieter world; we need to find ways to adapt to the more vocal world we live in now.

I may occasionally long for the simpler days of being a kid, thinking about only whether a game is "fun" or not, but like growing up, the expansion of gamer criticism is a good thing. It's just something more of us have to slowly but surely get used to.

I probably should say that I'm not really offended by those games. I was just trying to point out that no matter what developers do there is always someone that might not be comfortable with the "enemy stereotype" they choose. As someone else said it would be perfectly understandable if Russian, Chinese or Middle Eastern people would feel uncomfortable with most military themed games we have seen the last few years.

But for some reason it's all not a big deal unless you belong to the historical "good guys" ... Imagine what outrage we would see if somone would make a WW2 game where you are on the german side fighting the allied soldiers. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about an SS or SA soldier, I'm talking about regular Wehrmacht.

The notion that someone would be up in arms about Luftrausers because you MIGHT be playing a Luftwaffe-pilot seems a little ... extreme to me.

If I think about it the only time I have ever been angry at the display of a german soldier in any media was in Saving Private Ryan when the guy they let go was the one that shot Tom Hanks and murdered that other dude with a knife. After showing that guy was just a human being that was afraid to die making him a "villain" in the end was totally unnessacary.

I'm saying he personally has a right to feel -and share- however he wants. At what point can he share how some games make him feel? Right now.

I can't guarantee that anyone will be receptive to how such "kill German soldiers" objectives make him feel, but just as these people expressed that they felt a bit uncomfortable with the Nazi-like imagery, so too can he express that such objectives make him feel uncomfortable. He's human, and he identifies with the German people. Regardless of what any German has ever done, it's not completely unreasonable for him to possibly be made uncomfortable or even offended by people killing Germans in games.

I imagine his point isn't that the historical Nazis weren't villains. It sounds like he just doesn't like how overused they are, to the point that they are a villainous trope in videogames. And as a German, it makes him feel uncomfortable and offended. I don't feel the same discomfort or offense, likely because I'm not German, but that's why there's value in his different perspective.

With a new Wolfenstein game coming out soon, why not share his thoughts?

@2headedninja asked, "At what point am I as a german allowed to be offended by all those 'kill german soldiers'-themed games? Can I have my discussion about how Wolfenstein is really offensive to germans?"

And I am saying, "You're damn right you can! Write it up, and let's discuss this."

I think you're right; "no matter what developers do there is always someone that might not be comfortable with the 'enemy stereotype' they choose. As someone else said it would perfectly understandable if Russian, Chinese or Middle Eastern people would feel uncomfortable with most military themed games we have seen the last few years."

Makes sense to me. So, let's hear 'em. The answer isn't for more people to quiet down about how games make them feel. The answer is more people speaking up about how games make them feel.

If you or anyone else feels uncomfortable with some part of these modern military games, then more power to you and others talking about that. I, as neither a Russian or Middle Eastern individual, am not going to necessarily have the frame of reference to feel that discomfort. So, you sharing that differing perspective is great! It sucks that many popular games make you feel uncomfortable, but let's talk about it. We may not end up feeling the same way about having Russians, Germans, or others as villains in games, but at least your view can be represented and potentially better understood.

How gamers feel about games shouldn't be ubiquitous, as that's completely unrealistic with just how different we all are. So, share how these games make you feel. Whether you're offended, angry, uncomfortable, or even okay with a game, it's worth hearing and understanding.

The developer of Luftrausers was right on the money with his response. He disagrees with suggestions that you are playing a Nazi, but he acknowledges how a gamer might get that impression. He states clearly that the game will have many interpretations, and he doesn't get to say which are and aren't valid. All he can do is try to understand why some gamers feel differently than he does and explain his intentions. Many who originally brought it up still maintained that they felt uncomfortable with it, but they seemed to appreciate his effort to explain.

That was a critical back and forth between adults, and I and many others got to better understand the developer's intent through the discussion.

So, I'd say, this exchange should be encouraging! If you feel like your perspective about military shooters is under-represented in the gaming community, well, then there's every reason for you to share that perspective. I look forward to seeing it.

German? I suppose most people would find that palatable with some explanation. Well maybe "most" is a bit generous. Nazis however, probably never. They're a real easy stand-in for "evil". But they were real, so it's not like with, I dunno, the Empire from Star Wars, where you can be all "oh man, the Sith are fuckin rad!".

Unless your problem is "oh, I'm offended that game designers lack an imagination. I don't want to shoot Nazis anymore, give me another target!", which people would also probably find palatable, even without any explaining.

If you can disassociate german from nazi, you should be aces (if you had that problem). After all, nazi is nazin your blood, so to speak.

It is interesting though, that line between fiction and reality. Suppose it's a question for a sociologist.

The game doesn't even have a story. For all you know these are alternate reality good-guy Nazis that are saving the world from an unstoppable Cambodian war machine.

@mrfalcon said:

This is now canon as far as I'm concerned. Fuck those fascist Cambodians.

It was probably going for an old time aesthetic and there's the fact that the Luftwaffe had the most Aces in that period, and as the developer said they definitely had the most unique weapons as well. If you do some reading you'd realize that not every soldier was a party member.