A question/also, what ass sides with the Krogan ?

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#1 Posted by Aterons (198 posts) -

Ok, I would have likely found this after a bit more searching but while searching for it another topic came to my mind so please don't bother reminding me that I could find the answer in about 10 mins of googeling.

I started replaying mass effect lately and while i was searching the wiki for info on some lore it actually crossed my eyes that mordain can be saved in ME3 O.O. Mind you, i had not fucking clue of this and my whole re playtrough of the 3 games seems much more worth it if i can save my favorite character. But the problem i have is that it seems Wrex has to be killed for it to work.

I already played the first game and convinced him to not fight me and now i am about 3 missions into the 2nd game :/

So my question is... are there any ways to edit the save files so he turns dead ? And if not, is there any way to kill him before the Krogan/Salarian quest in ME3 or to kill him in ME2, I searched on the wiki but found nothing about it :(.

Oh, and about the other topic, I wondered since i saw so much support on the forum for this "What asshole wants to cure the genophage !?". I get that Wrex i awesome and all but what would be the actual logic behind letting the Krogan loss on the galaxy... they seem to be less civilized than batarians and rachnai. What twisted morals to people have to make them want to save the Krogans !?!? ( Just as a side note, since a lot of people seem to think that siding with them is the right choice and give no motive )

#2 Posted by csl316 (8487 posts) -

Krogans are kind of bad ass, I guess people want tough military people for a military campaign.  Although the Salarians are pretty lethal, too.

Online
#3 Posted by pyrodactyl (1980 posts) -

The people who say red ending and faking the genophage cure are the right ways to go are evil bastards. Yo, I don't know if you heard but genocide isn't cool, no mather the resoning behind it.

#4 Posted by Aterons (198 posts) -

@pyrodactyl said:

The people who say red ending and faking the genophage cure are the right ways to go are evil bastards. Yo, I don't know if you heard but genocide isn't cool, no mather the resoning behind it.

Well isn't that what the genophage is in place for ?

It basically grants that the Krogan will not lead any further space military campaign ( loss of life and resources ) or another internal nuclear war ( loss of a shit ton of lives ) because they first need scientist ( aka and education system ) and true leaders ( like Wrex ) to properly cure the genophage themselves.

The whole point of the genophage was that the Krogans were adapting to well and becoming civilized to slowly due to Salarians and Turians giving them weapons/ships but not much else in terms of "advance civilization infrastructure" thus were a threat to galactic peace. Now when they adapted even more you want to interfere AGAIN and hope it goes right this time ? 2 wrongs don't make a right

#5 Posted by Elwoodan (820 posts) -

Regardless of how the Krogan act, what kind of monster would allow an engineered disease that causes terrible defects and stillbirths to a sentient species exist? there is a reason stuff like this banned under the Geneva Convention here in the real world.

#6 Edited by Akyho (1602 posts) -

Krogan's were uplifted ahead of their time by the Solarians before the Krogans had time to learn and adapt to the new technology. The society was not there to govern the proper use.

The Krogans have learned and changed with their time of near extinction and wish to become a helpful part of a galactic alliance as much as any other race. All other races are just as dangerous as the Krogans, Solarians have already demonstrated that point on their own.

Besides the Krogan rebellions came about when the Turians wanted to Cull the Krogans and keep them in a box almost. They faced becoming an oppressed people. The war that ensued only proved the point the Turians were afraid of, that the Krogans were too power full and numerous to fight. Why they wanted to oppress them not allow them to become something more than shock troopers.

Aaswell as their over success due to the unfortunate fact that the genetic structure of the a Krogan is highly resistant due to the harsh nature of Tuchanka but why they also have numerous children. This is a norm on their own world, on other planets without such harsh environments they become too good at thriving, you cannot blame a race for is genetic structure and the actions it must take.

They were an infant race in the grand scheme. Its as if you asked a child to run a military service without any knowledge of the Politics involved and they become too good and want to become something more you simply beat them down and treat them like weapons. If the society of the Krogans were more mature at that point and was allowed into the galactic politics. Their survivalist nature could have allowed for change and then a better discussion on how to help them become part of the galaxy. Even if it meant volunteering for genetic manipulation to slow down their breeding rather than out right death.

The Genophage was a quick and blunt method a more controlled method could have been implaced.

With the Guidance of Wrex there is a chance for the Krogans to become a more uplifted race than what the Genophage has made them. Their entire society changed due to it.

The Krogans you face now are not the same Krogan you would have faced thousands of years ago. As shown when you are on Tuchanka. They had art and impressive architecture they were a civilized people until genocide threatened them. A new way of life was created, it broke down their society into tribes and survival of the strongest.

If that hadn't happened the entire race would have died off sooner.

The Krogans were no diffrent to us right now in terms of technology before the Solarian's intervened. Given the right amount of time then their chances of becoming self proclaimed space fairing race on their own terms would have happened and their society would have evolved to it.

They could have became more inline with Turians or they could have come more in line with Batarians. However to call current Krogans less civilized than Batarians AND the Rachni?

The Rachni are not wholly uncivilized they are just different. Batarians have just found more success within themselves and do not pride upon involving others in their own matters. It dosnt help their social accepted practices goes against the galactic norms E.G Slavery. This further ostrises them, they are still a new race space faring race and finding their feet. Much the same as Humanity would have been if they were not accelerated by the Prothean archive on Mars.

#7 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3806 posts) -

So you support genocide?

If you follow the fiction the Krogan aren't evil or anything. And if you are trying to save the galaxy, recruiting a race of the best warriors in the galaxy under a strong leader seems like a pretty smart idea.

In the fiction, a human group (Cerberus) actively works against everyone saving the galaxy... should all humans be wiped out?

#8 Posted by roughneck117 (190 posts) -

Use this link to the bioware forums thread that has the save editor for ME3.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/9776690/1

Now, if you want to save Mordin, you have to do a few things. Play ME2 as you want to, except for when you get to Mordins Loyalty mission. There you HAVE to destroy Maelons data. Also, make sure Mordin survives the suicide mission, cause, you know.

Once youre done with the game, import that save file to ME3 and start a new game. Once you get to a point in the game where you can save, do so and exit the game. Then use the save editor to edit the save, as you do, to kill wrex, and you have a way to save mordin.

BTWSPOILERSOMGLOLBBQ

#9 Posted by Shady (503 posts) -

Unless you want to convince Mordin to be a horrible person, I don't see why you want him alive.

#10 Posted by Winternet (8015 posts) -

If you're killing Wrex, you are doing something wrong.

#11 Posted by thedj93 (1237 posts) -

just because you're scared of my potential doesnt mean its ok to kill me

#12 Posted by pyromagnestir (4305 posts) -

The genophage isn't genocide, people, as it's not meant to kill the Krogans into extinction, it's meant to keep them from overpopulating the galaxy and running roughshod over everybody's ass.

Slippery slope/fine line and all that, but still.

Online
#13 Posted by xMEGADETHxSLY (446 posts) -

I followed Miranda For some reason in ME2

#14 Posted by Aterons (198 posts) -

@Akyho said:

I still need an answer to the first question :/

Krogan's were uplifted ahead of their time by the Solarians before the Krogans had time to learn and adapt to the new technology. The society was not there to govern the proper use.

The Krogans have learned and changed with their time of near extinction and wish to become a helpful part of a galactic alliance as much as any other race. All other races are just as dangerous as the Krogans, Solarians have already demonstrated that point on their own.

Besides the Krogan rebellions came about when the Turians wanted to Cull the Krogans and keep them in a box almost. They faced becoming an oppressed people. The war that ensued only proved the point the Turians were afraid of, that the Krogans were too power full and numerous to fight. Why they wanted to oppress them not allow them to become something more than shock troopers.

Aaswell as their over success due to the unfortunate fact that the genetic structure of the a Krogan is highly resistant due to the harsh nature of Tuchanka but why they also have numerous children. This is a norm on their own world, on other planets without such harsh environments they become too good at thriving, you cannot blame a race for is genetic structure and the actions it must take.

They were an infant race in the grand scheme. Its as if you asked a child to run a military service without any knowledge of the Politics involved and they become too good and want to become something more you simply beat them down and treat them like weapons. If the society of the Krogans were more mature at that point and was allowed into the galactic politics. Their survivalist nature could have allowed for change and then a better discussion on how to help them become part of the galaxy. Even if it meant volunteering for genetic manipulation to slow down their breeding rather than out right death.

The Genophage was a quick and blunt method a more controlled method could have been implaced.

With the Guidance of Wrex there is a chance for the Krogans to become a more uplifted race than what the Genophage has made them. Their entire society changed due to it.

The Krogans you face now are not the same Krogan you would have faced thousands of years ago. As shown when you are on Tuchanka. They had art and impressive architecture they were a civilized people until genocide threatened them. A new way of life was created, it broke down their society into tribes and survival of the strongest.

If that hadn't happened the entire race would have died off sooner.

The Krogans were no diffrent to us right now in terms of technology before the Solarian's intervened. Given the right amount of time then their chances of becoming self proclaimed space fairing race on their own terms would have happened and their society would have evolved to it.

They could have became more inline with Turians or they could have come more in line with Batarians. However to call current Krogans less civilized than Batarians AND the Rachni?

The Rachni are not wholly uncivilized they are just different. Batarians have just found more success within themselves and do not pride upon involving others in their own matters. It dosnt help their social accepted practices goes against the galactic norms E.G Slavery. This further ostrises them, they are still a new race space faring race and finding their feet. Much the same as Humanity would have been if they were not accelerated by the Prothean archive on Mars.

Well this is a good point but you are forgetting 2 things:

1 They showed they are the less civilized race by the simple fact that they are the only ones who had an internal Nuclear war ( before any interference by other races ), not other race destroyed their home planet and no other race ( except the turains ) had any modern major wars against themselves, so they are on the same "war loving" level as turains were and they didn't had the diplomacy not to use nukes in said wars.

2 If they could actually properly integrate into galactic society they wouldn't mind the genophage effect:

-A Krogan lives up to 1000+, a birth consists of a few hundred kids

-If we assume they become civilized enough not to have half the population join mercenary groups and have their young fight to death to prove themselves "worthy" than we are left with an average of about 700-900 considering how resistant to diseases they are.

I don't know the time it takes for them to give birth, but since you are informed about Eve being pregnant with Wrex kid about a few months after they meet we could say it's not longer than 2 years, and it's likely more around the lines of a few months.

So per 1000 krogans ( half m half f and lets consider each females only gives birth to 100 kids out of which 0.001% survive ) you have 25 newborns every 1 year, considering a female can be sexually active for a few hundred years your birth to death ratio will be something around the lines of 5/1 up to 25/1.

That's more than motherfucking India in the 20th century. So even WITH the genophage they could still reproduce like hell if they were civilized enough to colonize and live of the land ( pretty sure they are not denied to colonize every planet in the galaxy ).

Now assume we have that increased by 1000, you have 25000 newborns per 1 death... where the hell do they go ?

#15 Posted by Undeadpool (4925 posts) -

Mordin's entire point is that because of Wrex and Eve, the Krogan have a shot at actually peacefully co-existing. Wrex has successfully proven himself an unstoppable king, but also as early as ME1 said the krogan were squandering their potential by focusing only on warlike pursuits. In fact he relates a story where he tried to broker peace and was betrayed for his efforts, but now he has a great deal more clout, so there's no reason to believe the krogan couldn't integrate.

#16 Posted by roughneck117 (190 posts) -

@Aterons: Aww shit, I forgot to make it a reply. Sorry about that mate. I'll just copy and paste my response here then.

Use this link to the bioware forums thread that has the save editor for ME3.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/9776690/1

Now, if you want to save Mordin, you have to do a few things. Play ME2 as you want to, except for when you get to Mordins Loyalty mission. There you HAVE to destroy Maelons data. Also, make sure Mordin survives the suicide mission, cause, you know.

Once youre done with the game, import that save file to ME3 and start a new game. Once you get to a point in the game where you can save, do so and exit the game. Then use the save editor to edit the save, as you do, to kill wrex, and you have a way to save mordin.

BTWSPOILERSOMGLOLBBQ

#17 Posted by gkhan (429 posts) -

I recently played through ME3 again (wanted that Insanity trophy), and this time I choose to fake the genophage cure and kill Mordin (and Wrex later, as it turned out). It's a pretty repellent choice, and not one I would have made, but I have to admit that I almost prefer the story this way. The final scene of act 1 becomes pretty awesome (with you challenging Mordin about him perfecting the disease, and he yelling "I made a mistake!" back to you, and then you shoot him in the back), and the scene when Wrex confronts you on the Citadel is pretty great too. The decision makes a kind of cynical, psychopathic sense: this war is for the survival of the galaxy, and you need both the salarians and krogans in order to win. To ensure victory, sometimes hard choices have to be made, and that includes sacrificing friends and dooming an entire race, which wouldn't survive anyway if the Reapers win.

However, if we're talking morality here, clearly the only choice is to save the krogans. The genophage is a form of genocide (albeit in a roundabout way). We live in a society that recognizes a difference between just wars and unjust wars, and part of the criterion for a war to be just is that the methods you use to fight them are just. Just as indiscriminate slaughter of civilians is considered immoral (regardless of who you're fighting), dooming an entire race to extinction cannot, under any circumstance, be considered moral. No one has the right to wipe an entire culture from history.

Also, remember the mechanism of the genophage: it doesn't sterilize the females, it just makes it so that the vast, vast majority of pregnancies are non-viable. If you're a pro-life person who thinks life begins at conception, this is nothing less than slaughter of babies at a massive scale, but even if you aren't pro-life, it is still abhorrent. You're sentencing millions of women to die in childbirth, and doom the rest to the torture of miscarriage and stillbirth.

These krogan women were civilians. They were innocent people, who didn't fight in any war. The children that did make it, the future generations of the krogans, they didn't fight in any war either, but they are punished all the same.

Now, you can make the argument that it was the only way; if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the krogans would have conquered the galaxy and very possibly eradicated all the other races. This might be true (or it might not be, you could never know), but as a moral question it is totally irrelevant. If doing what is right always always lead to the optimal outcomes, then none of us would struggle with morality. The question of what is morally right is entirely separate from what leads to the best outcome. The salarians did what they thought was necessary, but that doesn't mean we should commend them for their choice: whatever else is true, they did not do the right thing. And if you perpetuate that crime, you are just as guilty as they are.

#18 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3806 posts) -

@gkhan said:

I recently played through ME3 again (wanted that Insanity trophy), and this time I choose to fake the genophage cure and kill Mordin (and Wrex later, as it turned out). It's a pretty repellent choice, and not one I would have made, but I have to admit that I almost prefer the story this way. The final scene of act 1 becomes pretty awesome (with you challenging Mordin about him perfecting the disease, and he yelling "I made a mistake!" back to you, and then you shoot him in the back), and the scene when Wrex confronts you on the Citadel is pretty great too. The decision makes a kind of cynical, psychopathic sense: this war is for the survival of the galaxy, and you need both the salarians and krogans in order to win. To ensure victory, sometimes hard choices have to be made, and that includes sacrificing friends and dooming an entire race, which wouldn't survive anyway if the Reapers win.

However, if we're talking morality here, clearly the only choice is to save the krogans. The genophage is a form of genocide (albeit in a roundabout way). We live in a society that recognizes a difference between just wars and unjust wars, and part of the criterion for a war to be just is that the methods you use to fight them are just. Just as indiscriminate slaughter of civilians is considered immoral (regardless of who you're fighting), dooming an entire race to extinction cannot, under any circumstance, be considered moral. No one has the right to wipe an entire culture from history.

Also, remember the mechanism of the genophage: it doesn't sterilize the females, it just makes it so that the vast, vast majority of pregnancies are non-viable. If you're a pro-life person who thinks life begins at conception, this is nothing less than slaughter of babies at a massive scale, but even if you aren't pro-life, it is still abhorrent. You're sentencing millions of women to die in childbirth, and doom the rest to the torture of miscarriage and stillbirth.

These krogan women were civilians. They were innocent people, who didn't fight in any war. The children that did make it, the future generations of the krogans, they didn't fight in any war either, but they are punished all the same.

Now, you can make the argument that it was the only way; if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the krogans would have conquered the galaxy and very possibly eradicated all the other races. This might be true (or it might not be, you could never know), but as a moral question it is totally irrelevant. If doing what is right always always lead to the optimal outcomes, then none of us would struggle with morality. The question of what is morally right is entirely separate from what leads to the best outcome. The salarians did what they thought was necessary, but that doesn't mean we should commend them for their choice: whatever else is true, they did not do the right thing. And if you perpetuate that crime, you are just as guilty as they are.

Great post. The way your story developed with those choices sounds awesome. I almost always just go good guy in these games because often going "evil" or whatever seems ridiculous, but this one sounds like it had some interesting results.

#19 Posted by Aterons (198 posts) -

@roughneck117 said:

Use this link to the bioware forums thread that has the save editor for ME3.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/9776690/1

Now, if you want to save Mordin, you have to do a few things. Play ME2 as you want to, except for when you get to Mordins Loyalty mission. There you HAVE to destroy Maelons data. Also, make sure Mordin survives the suicide mission, cause, you know.

Once youre done with the game, import that save file to ME3 and start a new game. Once you get to a point in the game where you can save, do so and exit the game. Then use the save editor to edit the save, as you do, to kill wrex, and you have a way to save mordin.

BTWSPOILERSOMGLOLBBQ

Oh, that makes it much easier... for a sec i thought I need to replay about 3 hours.

Thank you very much :D

#20 Posted by familyphotoshoot (653 posts) -

If Wrex died in ME1 and you decided to cure the genophage in ME3 you fucked up big time.

#21 Posted by Aterons (198 posts) -

@gkhan said:

Also, remember the mechanism of the genophage: it doesn't sterilize the females, it just makes it so that the vast, vast majority of pregnancies are non-viable. If you're a pro-life person who thinks life begins at conception, this is nothing less than slaughter of babies at a massive scale, but even if you aren't pro-life, it is still abhorrent. You're sentencing millions of women to die in childbirth, and doom the rest to the torture of miscarriage and stillbirth.

These krogan women were civilians. They were innocent people, who didn't fight in any war. The children that did make it, the future generations of the krogans, they didn't fight in any war either, but they are punished all the same.

Well... is that applicable to the Krogan.

I mean, in human culture you can make the argument that some people will be pro some contra killing babies . Some will say a human isn't a person up until it actually shows signs of intelligence other that it is even when it's in utero in the first day of contraception.

But Krogans have a culture were they willingly kill the weak ones trough trials and mothers only allow the stronger babies to survive the first years... so it isn't much a difference in ethics if you kill the weak ones year after they are born or if they are simply born dead.

#22 Posted by roughneck117 (190 posts) -

@Aterons: BTW, in order to set up Wrex as being dead, you have to pick a bunch of options in the editor. Its not too difficult, but you will need to google the instructions cuz it is a bit of an ordeal. Keep calm and calibrate.

#23 Edited by Akyho (1602 posts) -

@Aterons said:

1 They showed they are the less civilized race by the simple fact that they are the only ones who had an internal Nuclear war ( before any interference by other races ), not other race destroyed their home planet and no other race ( except the turains ) had any modern major wars against themselves, so they are on the same "war loving" level as turains were and they didn't had the diplomacy not to use nukes in said wars.

They made a mistake and were recovering from it. However due to the duress of the Rachni war, ethical and moral decisions were thrown out infavour of creating an army to save the galaxy. It was a short term decision were nearly ALL the short comings were put onto the Krogans on unfairly. It was a win win situation for the Turians Solarians and the Asari at the cost of the Krogans. In fact it under the direction of the Turians to wipe out the Rachni, something they argued hard for the Krogans as well however a middle ground was decided upon.

They were not allowed the time to recover from their mistake.

Also you seem to saying having an internal nuclear war is a mark of Uncivilized. You seem to forgetting a similar thing ALMOST happened just 70 years ago on innocents at that.

The nuclear bombs dropped onto of Horishima and Nagasaki were not needed. It can very easily be called an uncivilized act. So maybe you are right we are not civilized people our selves.

The Krogans were simply used as weapons, because of their robust nature and almost limitless population. With those maths you did right or wrong, you are not thinking about the true matter.

The ethical and moral matter, you can do the maths but remember IF THIS WAS REAL. Those are lives, lives of sentient beings, and you are just treating them like numbers.

This is a real issue in real life. A military force must remember that is it playing with peoples lives and not numbers.

However to simply say "oh ignore all the STILLBIRTHS they have enough." is like saying its ok that a woman can have the CHANCE for 1 out of 5 births be survivable.

These are lives that are being created and then snuffed out so easily and on such a large scale. That is the concept behind this.

What if this was real, you couldn't just easily go by the numbers you have to use your heart at some point.

Its hard to argue how to change the events of the past, maybe they happened in the best way it was probably the only way for it to go.

However why prosecute a people and continue a punishment long since paid for and give them a chance?

Fun fact actually that is what led to World War 2. World War 1 finished the Germans were beaten and the french so sick of the Germans invading them as they have had wars with Germany for a hundred years, and so they decided to cripple them both as a military force and as a nation with power.

If it wasn't for Britain and America being able to numb it and curb the less drastic demands. Germany would have been destroyed socilogicaly. However due to the still very harsh terms the German people were downtrodden and weakened politically and allowed for a man like Hitler to weasel his self in and was allowed to take control and turn his maniacal agenda to a war that claimed millions of lives and horrific war crimes.

And now 70 years on Germany is the political and economical center for Europe.......

@Aterons said:


Well... is that applicable to the Krogan.

I mean, in human culture you can make the argument that some people will be pro some contra killing babies . Some will say a human isn't a person up until it actually shows signs of intelligence other that it is even when it's in utero in the first day of contraception.

But Krogans have a culture were they willingly kill the weak ones trough trials and mothers only allow the stronger babies to survive the first years... so it isn't much a difference in ethics if you kill the weak ones year after they are born or if they are simply born dead.

You sound very very bad to be blunt. You sound racist and not at all Sociologically Sensitive.

Their society developed like that due to the Genophage, if your race is to survive in the very small amount of blood in the gene pool, you cannot allow imperfections rule it. Otherwise the race is destroyed by such things. It is something tribes in isolated areas of the world do. There is a tribe that live on some mountains that the food, resources and space are only so much. So you need to prove yourself that you should be allowed to live and use these resources and be cared for. That is why they will not care for their children untill they are 5 and then they work.. They do the basics feed and clean however everything else is up to the child.

They have pouches were the kid stays if they fall out the women will just laugh. If it is killed by an animal not a big deal. There was a story a sociologist watching them and a girl was led to a house, and left in their, the mother and father said they would return. They never did and she starved to death. When the sociologist asked them why the did it. They said they were testing her, to see if she was gullible....she was and thus she died, she never tried to escape, she never tried to survive. Thus by the way that the tribe operate she was not worthy to the small amount of food they have.

If they did not control their population they would all die.

#24 Posted by gkhan (429 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

Great post. The way your story developed with those choices sounds awesome. I almost always just go good guy in these games because often going "evil" or whatever seems ridiculous, but this one sounds like it had some interesting results.

It really did. When I played through it the first time, I totally followed my own moral compass and saved the krogan, but as I said, I almost wished I hadn't, because the alternate version is pretty damn good. I recommend it if you're playing through the game again, or just checking it out on YouTube if you're not planning to.

Also, there's a number of pretty great scenes later in the game, when you're talking to other characters who don't know what you did and they're like "So, Shepard, did you ever hesitate saving the krogans?", and you have to keep face.

#25 Posted by _Zombie_ (1462 posts) -

@familyphotoshoot said:

If Wrex died in ME1 and you decided to cure the genophage in ME3 you fucked up big time.

Well, shit. I'm boned.

#26 Posted by Aterons (198 posts) -

@Akyho said:

@Aterons said:

1 They showed they are the less civilized race by the simple fact that they are the only ones who had an internal Nuclear war ( before any interference by other races ), not other race destroyed their home planet and no other race ( except the turains ) had any modern major wars against themselves, so they are on the same "war loving" level as turains were and they didn't had the diplomacy not to use nukes in said wars.

They made a mistake and were recovering from it. However due to the duress of the Rachni war, ethical and moral decisions were thrown out infavour of creating an army to save the galaxy. It was a short term decision were nearly ALL the short comings were put onto the Krogans on unfairly. It was a win win situation for the Turians Solarians and the Asari at the cost of the Krogans. In fact it under the direction of the Turians to wipe out the Rachni, something they argued hard for the Krogans as well however a middle ground was decided upon.

They were not allowed the time to recover from their mistake.

Also you seem to saying having an internal nuclear war is a mark of Uncivilized. You seem to forgetting a similar thing ALMOST happened just 70 years ago on innocents at that.

The nuclear bombs dropped onto of Horishima and Nagasaki were not needed. It can very easily be called an uncivilized act. So maybe you are right we are not civilized people our selves.

The Krogans were simply used as weapons, because of their robust nature and almost limitless population. With those maths you did right or wrong, you are not thinking about the true matter.

The ethical and moral matter, you can do the maths but remember IF THIS WAS REAL. Those are lives, lives of sentient beings, and you are just treating them like numbers.

This is a real issue in real life. A military force must remember that is it playing with peoples lives and not numbers.

However to simply say "oh ignore all the STILLBIRTHS they have enough." is like saying its ok that a woman can have the CHANCE for 1 out of 5 births be survivable.

These are lives that are being created and then snuffed out so easily and on such a large scale. That is the concept behind this.

What if this was real, you couldn't just easily go by the numbers you have to use your heart at some point.

Its hard to argue how to change the events of the past, maybe they happened in the best way it was probably the only way for it to go.

However why prosecute a people and continue a punishment long since paid for and give them a chance?

Fun fact actually that is what led to World War 2. World War 1 finished the Germans were beaten and the french so sick of the Germans invading them as they have had wars with Germany for a hundred years, and so they decided to cripple them both as a military force and as a nation with power.

If it wasn't for Britain and America being able to numb it and curb the less drastic demands. Germany would have been destroyed socilogicaly. However due to the still very harsh terms the German people were downtrodden and weakened politically and allowed for a man like Hitler to weasel his self in and was allowed to take control and turn his maniacal agenda to a war that claimed millions of lives and horrific war crimes.

And now 70 years on Germany is the political and economical center for Europe.......

@Aterons said:


Well... is that applicable to the Krogan.

I mean, in human culture you can make the argument that some people will be pro some contra killing babies . Some will say a human isn't a person up until it actually shows signs of intelligence other that it is even when it's in utero in the first day of contraception.

But Krogans have a culture were they willingly kill the weak ones trough trials and mothers only allow the stronger babies to survive the first years... so it isn't much a difference in ethics if you kill the weak ones year after they are born or if they are simply born dead.

You sound very very bad to be blunt. You sound racist and not at all Sociologically Sensitive.

Their society developed like that due to the Genophage, if your race is to survive in the very small amount of blood in the gene pool, you cannot allow imperfections rule it. Otherwise the race is destroyed by such things. It is something tribes in isolated areas of the world do. There is a tribe that live on some mountains that the food, resources and space are only so much. So you need to prove yourself that you should be allowed to live and use these resources and be cared for. That is why they will not care for their children untill they are 5 and then they work.. They do the basics feed and clean however everything else is up to the child.

They have pouches were the kid stays if they fall out the women will just laugh. If it is killed by an animal not a big deal. There was a story a sociologist watching them and a girl was led to a house, and left in their, the mother and father said they would return. They never did and she starved to death. When the sociologist asked them why the did it. They said they were testing her, to see if she was gullible....she was and thus she died, she never tried to escape, she never tried to survive. Thus by the way that the tribe operate she was not worthy to the small amount of food they have.

If they did not control their population they would all die.

First, the bombs in WW2 were at the time when only 1 country had them, so it couldn't escalate in "nuclear war". If the human had used them during the cold war ( which we almost did ) than you could compare that with what the Krogan did.

Second, the krogan mother selected their babies via nature before the genophage and cine forever and the krogan society did the same... the weak died, before and after the genophage, before and after the first contact... that's just they way Krogans were.

And thirdly, the Krogans with the genophage cured would be in the exact same position as WW2 Germany. If you had read history well enough you would know that Germany had gotten into a political, social, economic and territorial crisis after WW1... so exactly what the Krogans have now. But they weren't stopped from building an army ( theoretically they were, but key people turned a blind eye ). So really, if the Germans were actually helped socially and financially more after WW1 ( which they were a lot anyway ) and the regulation about the army were more strict instead of the other way around we would have likely never gotten to WW2.

It's the same damn thing with the Krogan, if you allow them to breed when 90% of the current population lives as mercenaries and than give them nothing to prosper off ( fertile worlds are rare and the universe isn't exactly lacking that 1 in 1 million krogan scientist ) than guess what ?

You are putting the problem up until the point where it's very unethical to kill fetuses and newborns but you are not thinking 200 years after when the Krogan population has just increas in size by over 100 and there is nowhere for them to go. What exactly does that population do other than than go to war?... add to that the fact that they are war friendly and in their culture war is basically "revered".

The logical answer is that you have to civilize them slowly and when they are actually smart enough as a specie to be something else than gun for hire and to understand how to reproduce with caution ( use contraception, only have 1 female give birth and keep the damn kids alive... etc ) than cure the genophage SLOWLY so that it's not a sudden change.

#27 Posted by Pierre42 (94 posts) -

Well when you cure the genophage and take the green ending, you see Krogan's getting back to their roots as great architects and artists as they plan new temples.

It's not wrong to side with the Krogans, hell Mordin is nice, but the stakes are too high to let the genophage go uncured.

A bigger ass sides with the salarians.

At least when a Krogan wants to be aggressive he'll headbutt your face.

A salarian will neuter your race and make it look like the Turians did it.

#28 Edited by Akyho (1602 posts) -

@Aterons said:

The logical answer is that you have to civilize them slowly and when they are actually smart enough as a specie to be something else than gun for hire and to understand how to reproduce with caution ( use contraception, only have 1 female give birth and keep the damn kids alive... etc ) than cure the genophage SLOWLY so that it's not a sudden change.

We agree on the solution to an extent. However there is a difference you dont see the Krogans as smart and civilized and worthy of the cure, while I do.

That is the only thing we can argue here and guess what? That's were its simply a matter of opinion there is no answer and that's why you are allowed to make this decision and why there should not be any renegade or paragon.

Its your call and even if its the most horrific thing possible YOU can either feel bad or feel you did the right thing or feel disappointed that actions of others failed your decision.

I do the opposite horrific things happen, I can feel bad or I can feel like I the right thing, or feel disappointed that the actions of other failed my decision.

I fully admit that if Wrex was assassinated they are boned. If it was Wrex's brother in charge and not Wrex I would not cure the genophage. However with Wrex and the changes Ive already seen him do I believe he could change it all, its a risk.

That is why you are not allowed to do things the way you want. Unless Wrex is already dead, he is too much of a force that will stop the genophage and it plague's Mordin as Wrex shows promise he can lead the Krogans to a better life style only if the genophage is cured.

You do not and you choose the opposite and you decide on a definite action with a definite result.

I dont think we can convince either of to change our decisions and more so the thinking behind it.

#29 Posted by Raven10 (1769 posts) -

I'll agree with most people that the idea is that Wrex can control the Krogans and make them valuable members of society. And genocide is bad in any situation. Even if you aren't killing every last Krogan you are still all but wiping out their species. That is wrong.

Also, I suffered from the glitch in the PC version of Mass Effect 2 where Mordin didn't die in the suicide mission but still showed up as dead afterwards. I didn't realize this because I had done all the missions before the suicide mission and he was alive at the end of it so I just assumed it was fine. Played all the way to the Salarian planet in Mass Effect 3 only to realize he was dead. Didn't feel like going back and playing the whole thing again so I just did it without Mordin which made the whole thing a lot less impactful. Shame.

#30 Posted by kyrieee (379 posts) -

I sided with the Salarians out of pragmatism. It would allow me to have both the Salarians and the Krogans as allies. It's too bad they copped out and let you get the both as allies no matter what.

#31 Posted by living4theday258 (679 posts) -

I cured the genophage because I hate salarians because they are arrogant ass holes (mordin and a select few salarians are exceptions) and there is no way to kill wrex after saving him on vermire.

#32 Posted by big_jon (5723 posts) -

Krogan are awesome.

#33 Posted by Bangarang182 (17 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: whoa! I did the red ending, but totally saved the Korgan! Easy there buddy

#34 Posted by SerHulse (685 posts) -

I sided with them because I trust Wrex.

Oh and I'm against Genocide, that probably played a role. The Genophage was a response to a problem which doesn't exist any more, so I saw no reason to let it continue.

#35 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3859 posts) -

If you didn't side with the Krogan and Mordin you are a bad person and we cannot be friends.

#36 Posted by I_smell (3924 posts) -

Well all organic life is synthesized with machine life now, so the krogans should be civilized enough to do whatever, right?
Problem solved. All problems solved.

#37 Posted by HellBrendy (994 posts) -

@pyrodactyl said:

The people who say red ending and faking the genophage cure are the right ways to go are evil bastards. Yo, I don't know if you heard but genocide isn't cool, no mather the resoning behind it.

You do realize saving the krogans probably means them getting all genocide-y on your ass in a couple of decades, right?

That said, I love Wrex and can't think of playing Mass Effect without him.

#38 Edited by CaLe (3964 posts) -

Side with Krogan because it's game and do things in game can't do in the real life. Be evil I mean and selfish I mean.

#39 Posted by Gravier251 (217 posts) -

I went with leaving the Genophage in place, even though I had to sorrowfully gun down Mordin to do it (and later Wrex too in a shoot out on the citadel).

The Krogan simply are not capable of sustainability in the long term and Wrex will only live so long. Chances are once they rise again they won't exactly be grateful for having been repressed for so long, especially with how naturally aggressive they are. In exploring the galaxy there is even an obscure planet or two that are incredibly harsh and near impossible for most races to live on. Krogan's however decided to set up on them and within only a couple of generations they had reproduced exponentially, consumed all the resources on the planet and then moved on, leaving it a ruined desolate husk eventually overpopulating to the point where they began trying to claim planets belonging to other council races.

Krogans give birth to around 1000 offspring a year. The growth increases exponentially. So, they either have to a)limit reproduction *incredibly* strictly or b) Kill some of their offspring themselves/allow them to die to bring them into acceptable limits.

There are over 1 billion female Krogan on Tuchanka according to EDI. So, 1,000,000,000,000 live infants or more in the first year alone. From there the growth rate would get exponentially worse very quickly.

I just couldn't trust them to police their own numbers, or to keep from lashing out against everyone once Wrex has passed on and someone else rises to dominance. It was a terrible decision, but I just can't see them being able to sustain the inevitable rapid population boom, same as before.

It was one of the few darker calls I opted to make in Mass Effect, mostly I was paragon. Though I did opt to wipe out the 150,000 or so Geth in ME2. Didn't want to gamble the rest of the Geth race being corrupted upon the heretics uploading all their memories, etc. Was a relief when Legion in ME3 mentions that it was good to have done that. (Think it also gives a +2 or so towards being able to resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict peacefully).

I also stand by the destroy ending. Illusive Man wanted Control, Saren wanted Synthesis. And such people were present in all cycles. The goal has always been to destroy the reapers, end the cycle. I'm not about to go 180 on that and figure Saren/Illusive Man were right afterall because some strange entity contrives to throw me some other options. I just wish Bioware would utilise the indoctorination theory, rather than the rather underwhelming extended ending.

#40 Posted by Brodehouse (9906 posts) -

What kind of galaxy chooses the genophage? One that has suffered the unmitigated and unchecked brutality and expansionism of the Rebellions. One that was nearly wiped out by the rachni first, then the krogan. And here comes humanity, ready to tell people who have an actual history that goes lifetimes before humanity, about the proper way to run the galaxy. Typical humans.

Imagine if you got to the Crucible, the gun that will kill all the Reapers, and the Intelligence appears before you and says; "hey wait, killing all the Reapers is genocide, it's not ethical!" The genophage was not an attack on an innocent race, it was a weapon of war in order to procure a surrender from an unlawful combatant.

The genophage was the only option aside from mass genocide to prevent krogan expansionism. Asking nicely will not work.

And I cured it, because I needed the krogan. Not because 'it was the right thing to do'. It is unarguably the wrong thing to do. Innocent people will die from the next krogan rebellion. But I cured it because the Reapers took priority. It was a shitty hand to be dealt but I rolled with it.

#41 Posted by Akyho (1602 posts) -

@Gravier251: You seem to have forgotten that the genophage cure didn't eradicate the genophage only altered the Krogans genetics to birth at a lower rate and at a higher survival rate.

Meaning their birth cycle is more manageable without Stillbirths or killing the females. Only if Mordin completed the cure in its entirety meaning Wrex is alive and you didnt destroy the cure research in ME 2.

#42 Posted by 2HeadedNinja (1602 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

Great post. The way your story developed with those choices sounds awesome. I almost always just go good guy in these games because often going "evil" or whatever seems ridiculous, but this one sounds like it had some interesting results.

I never thought the renegade options in ME were "evil" per se. There were some that just made you a dick, but for the most part I always viewed them as "results by all means" choices.

#43 Posted by Zirilius (626 posts) -

@2HeadedNinja said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

Great post. The way your story developed with those choices sounds awesome. I almost always just go good guy in these games because often going "evil" or whatever seems ridiculous, but this one sounds like it had some interesting results.

I never thought the renegade options in ME were "evil" per se. There were some that just made you a dick, but for the most part I always viewed them as "results by all means" choices.

I agree Renegade is not evil. I feel the choices you make are kind of like a cop who will do anything to get the job done even if it means crossing the line to get that result.

#44 Posted by Gravier251 (217 posts) -

@Akyho: Not sure if I missed that then. All I recall is that the Genophage via stillbirths, etc. brings the Krogan reproduction levels in line with sustainable, positive growth like other races. Can't remember them saying the cure has the same effects as the genophage, only without the negatives. They just seemed to say it would completely cure them.

There was also the moment where EDI lays down the statistics of Krogan reproduction which seemed pretty dangerously high.

I did delete the data in ME2 and let Mordin shoot the scientist dead aswell, if that impacts it. All I can recall it impacting though is if EVE lives or not. It has been some time so maybe I missed it or am remembering it wrong.

#45 Posted by KevinK (198 posts) -

I sided the the Salarians.

I was going to let the Krogans have their cure, but then we didn't get even get out the truck yet and Wrex was yapping about a new Krogan Empire.

I knew then that the Krogans, even Wrex, couldn't be trusted with a cure.

The beauty of the game is that for the next third of the game, I actually thought I had gotten away with tricking the Krogan and had the support of the Krogan and the Salarians. But then, Wrex got all mad and made me shoot him.

#46 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3806 posts) -

@Zirilius said:

@2HeadedNinja said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

Great post. The way your story developed with those choices sounds awesome. I almost always just go good guy in these games because often going "evil" or whatever seems ridiculous, but this one sounds like it had some interesting results.

I never thought the renegade options in ME were "evil" per se. There were some that just made you a dick, but for the most part I always viewed them as "results by all means" choices.

I agree Renegade is not evil. I feel the choices you make are kind of like a cop who will do anything to get the job done even if it means crossing the line to get that result.

I don't agree for the whole series. It could have been done much more shade of gray.

Especially in tone at least. A lot of times being the "bottom" choice meant just being a dick. Part of my problem with Bioware games and why I think something like the Witcher or Walking Dead handled it much better.

#47 Posted by yinstarrunner (1185 posts) -

@Gravier251: Yeah, it seems like we have pretty much the same opinion on this. I have been in favor of the genophage since I learned what happened with the Krogan Rebellion.They just multiply too fast to be sustainable. It would push the galaxy to the limit very quickly. Add in the fact that I haven't had a pleasant experience with the Krogan EVER outside of Wrex and maybe Grunt and it wasn't that hard of a decision for me. They are too hot-headed. Wrex might be able to rein some of them in, but not all of them. I can't see a way that another rebellion doesn't happen sometime after the end of ME3. Shooting Mordin was really sad, though. Great drama in that scene.

@Akyho: Nobody told me that in my game. I must have destroyed the research. Makes sense.

@KevinK said:

I was going to let the Krogans have their cure, but then we didn't get even get out the truck yet and Wrex was yapping about a new Krogan Empire.

I knew then that the Krogans, even Wrex, couldn't be trusted with a cure.

Exactly this. That was the moment where I cemented my decision. No way in hell could I trust him after watching him get enthralled by power he didn't even have yet.

What to do with the Genophage was easily the best moral dilemma in that game. Oh, and then having to lie to Wrex afterwards? I felt like shit. It was awesome.

#48 Posted by KevinK (198 posts) -

@yinstarrunner Yeah. Mass Effect 3 isn't GOTY, but this has been a really awesome year for storytelling in video games with things like The Walking Dead and Spec Ops: The Line etc. I fear that all the angst over the ending will overshine the storytelling bits that Mass Effect 3 got really right, mainly the Wrex/Mordin stuff if you side with the Salarians.

The game treated siding with the Salarians like the asshole move it was. Even after the aforementioned moment in the truck when Wrex starts talking about a Krogan Empire, Shepard doesn't say anything and the female Krogan notices you're being silent. Like

Shooting Mordin - extremely powerful moment. I'm not somebody who cries at every video game ("Aries died, I cried!"), but shooting Mordin was pretty upsetting.

My favorite part though is the conversation with Garrus/Joker in the cockpit after you sabotage the cure. Garrus has always been a bit of a pragmatistic when it comes to the Krogan. The entire series, he's hinted that he agreed with the Genophage and even seemed to support the idea of the secret Turian bomb on Tuchanka. After you kill Mordin, he says something about (paraphrasing) "What if the cure won't work and the Krogan wouldn't know? You'd need nerves of steel and Mordin wouldn't stand for it." and Shepard is like "No... he wouldn't." It was just the most fucking perfect moment because Shepard felt exactly like I felt.

And another beautiful thing - the game lets you think you got away with it. For the next few missions, the Krogan and Salarians are on your War Assets and you think you got away by pulling one over on the Krogans. And when Wrex confronts you - if you try to talk your way out of it (like on Virmire), Wrex says "You can't talk your way out of this one, Shepard."

For as questionable as the ending of this game can be, there are some storytelling moments that Mass Effect 3 got oh so right.

#49 Edited by Akyho (1602 posts) -

@KevinK: @yinstarrunner: I take the Krogan Empire idea as a joke and Eve looking at you saying "he dosnt mean it...he is just being annoying." In the way a wife would.

If that set you over the edge then jeez you both were realy not secure with Wrex and Krogans.

Its not wrong however its now right...its a choice.... and it simply shows how people have done the same story and came out with completely utterly different impressions which lead to different choices.

The same can be much said as with the end of the game. I chose Wrex to lead the Krogans and cured the genophage trusting Wrex to guide them, one man/being has changed the course of nations in the past.

I utterly trust Wrex.

The end of the game you choose Control,Synthesis or Destruction.

I chose control, I have been similar discussions with people over the ending. Many saying "Destruction is the only option!" with the very rational reason saying "You cant trust Shepard to not be corrupted by the Reapers or the change to AI, once he is this Hybrid you cannot guarantee he wont change."

What alot of people seem to have done it go for a guarantee. You are Guaranteed with the Genophage in place the Korgans wont be a problem, however the Krogans never become whole as a people and events continue as they have done and slowly dooming a race.

The Pros are good and the Cons are "acceptable"

I chose to cure the genophage leave the hands of the Korgans in Wrex's guidance to a better galaxy with Krogans a fair and justified people. With the great risk that dosnt happened even under Wrex and they just wipe out most of the galaxy...it not going to happen like that...but its a strong possibility, Id say if anything a war with the Krogans.

But the Pros if it goes well are huge! and the Cons if it goes wrong are Huge!

When at the end I took a gamble.

People chose destruction which annihilated the reapers and everyone is left to pick up the pieces with a high death toll and annihilation of ALL AI's. You are guaranteed that AI's like the Reapers or Geth who have been aggressors for hundreds of years. You guarantee they will never be hostile by eliminating them entirely and we all learn the lesson AI's must never be constructed or else they rise upon you.

I took control. I am not guaranteed the reapers will be docile I am not guaranteed the Geth will be in peace. I am not guaranteed Shepherd will be the perfect controller for the Reapers allowing them to rebuild in the galaxy in no time and accelerate the galaxy safely to a higher technology and a a truly peaceful galaxy. and I trusted Shepherd would do it.

The Pro's are if it goes right insurmountable! the Cons if it goes wrong. are.....insurmountable!

I took chances and gambles, people took certainties. I didn't take gambles simply for the sake I took a educated risks, I eradicated the Rachni Queen in ME as I didnt think it could be trusted and another great war happen.

The same can be said about Krogans but under Wrex I believe we can end that fear. Under his Brother....pffft nope it wouldn't go well, there is almost not Risk more simply certainties it will go bad.

So some people strife to keep the same, I strove for better at great risk.

#50 Edited by Zirilius (626 posts) -

@Akyho said:

@KevinK: @yinstarrunner: I take the Krogan Empire idea as a joke and Eve looking at you saying "he dosnt mean it...he is just being annoying." In the way a wife would.

If that set you over the edge then jeez you both were realy not secure with Wrex and Krogans.

Its not wrong however its now right...its a choice.... and it simply shows how people have done the same story and came out with completely utterly different impressions which lead to different choices.

The same can be much said as with the end of the game. I chose Wrex to lead the Krogans and cured the genophage trusting Wrex to guide them, one man/being has changed the course of nations in the past.

I utterly trust Wrex.

The end of the game you choose Control,Synthesis or Destruction.

I chose control, I have been similar discussions with people over the ending. Many saying "Destruction is the only option!" with the very rational reason saying "You cant trust Shepard to not be corrupted by the Reapers or the change to AI, once he is this Hybrid you cannot guarantee he wont change."

What alot of people seem to have done it go for a guarantee. You are Guaranteed with the Genophage in place the Korgans wont be a problem, however the Krogans never become whole as a people and events continue as they have done and slowly dooming a race.

The Pros are good and the Cons are "acceptable"

I chose to cure the genophage leave the hands of the Korgans in Wrex's guidance to a better galaxy with Krogans a fair and justified people. With the great risk that dosnt happened even under Wrex and they just wipe out most of the galaxy...it not going to happen like that...but its a strong possibility, Id say if anything a war with the Krogans.

But the Pros if it goes well are huge! and the Cons if it goes wrong are Huge!

When at the end I took a gamble.

People chose destruction which annihilated the reapers and everyone is left to pick up the pieces with a high death toll and annihilation of ALL AI's. You are guaranteed that AI's like the Reapers or Geth who have been aggressors for hundreds of years. You guarantee they will never be hostile by eliminating them entirely and we all learn the lesson AI's must never be constructed or else they rise upon you.

I took control. I am not guaranteed the reapers will be docile I am not guaranteed the Geth will be in peace. I am not guaranteed Shepherd will be the perfect controller for the Reapers allowing them to rebuild in the galaxy in no time and accelerate the galaxy safely to a higher technology and a a truly peaceful galaxy. and I trusted Shepherd would do it.

The Pro's are if it goes right insurmountable! the Cons if it goes wrong. are.....insurmountable!

I took chances and gambles, people took certainties. I didn't take gambles simply for the sake I took a educated risks, I eradicated the Rachni Queen in ME as I didnt think it could be trusted and another great war happen.

The same can be said about Krogans but under Wrex I believe we can end that fear. Under his Brother....pffft nope it wouldn't go well, there is almost not Risk more simply certainties it will go bad.

So some people strife to keep the same, I strove for better at great risk.

Curious why you didn't choose Synthesis then? Not only do you create the next evolutionary jump for all species but the reaper's then share their knowledge of the harvested species with the rest of the races further advancing the collective knowledge of all races.

I disagree that there is a Good, Bad, Worse, and stupid ending as I think all the endings are good endings. It's all a matter of choice for the player. Had I known you could walk away or shoot the catalyst (think it's extended cut only though) I would have done that in a heart beat. Having to choose from the three though I chose Synthesis as subjugating the Geth after they just got their freedom seemed such a raw deal.

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