Since the ending is so poorly executed, I doubt the so called "extended" version will be able to change anything to satisfy gamers....

I mean 66% chance Shepard died...how are they gonna fix that with the extra cut scene and how are they gonna extend the story? with Joker?! or the rest of the team?! Then it really makes me scratch my head about why I spend so much time building the story with Shepard....

it's also free...are they gonna put any effort into it.?...doubtful...

Extended Cut DLC was originally meant to be called Clarification: We are not changing the damn ending. Alex adding that photo is awesome.

@TheHT said:

@huser said:

You can assume that's what the Reapers are doing because they already have what they need: The Citadel. They were just chillin when they were attacked. If the allied forces retreat then it's back to harvesting humans to increase their numbers, as is their primary tactic.

Allied forces knowing details about the Crucible? Javik doesn't know what it does either. No one knows what it does. Or do you mean the Reapers knowing about the Crucible for at least 2 cycles? Why? In Javik's cycle the Citadel was taken early on, and if I recall correctly the Crucible was only actually built in the current cycle.

The activation of the Crucible is their best bet at destroying the Reapers. Once it's activated, the situation is out of the fleets hands, and their all or nothing attack was strictly speaking a success. If it in fact carries a destructive quality that would also affect all ships in the area, then they're all dead for nothing. Do you think they think they need to be directly beside the Crucible in order for it to be effective, or to draw the Reapers in?

Potentially throwing their lives away by sticking around when the Crucible actives is pointless. The situation is entirely out of their hands. If the Crucible doesn't destroy the Reapers, and they actually lose all hope like you said, then they can fly back and go out in a glorious hail of laser beams and explosions all they want. But sticking around while a supposed super-weapon powers up in nonsense.

What exactly are the Reapers going to do about the Citadel changing its shape? Destroy it? Are you forgetting that the Catalyst is on the Citadel? That they're using it to harvest humans?

Why exactly do you think the entire Reaper force would follow an allied retreat? And a retreat of that scale won't happen instantaneously, it will take time, which is why when Shepard is on the Citadel there's still combat going on outside. The Reapers are not just going to stop firing and let the forces pass through them for a clean retreat. Just because they don't show that not happening, doesn't mean ridiculous possibilities like that are in any way likely to have happened.

Allied forces don't know anything specific about the Crucible. And somehow they still go all in on an attack, and that's all the Reapers would need to know about the Crucible...that's it's sufficiently important that it can draw in the combined forces of the entire galaxy to try and get to it. Javik/VI on Thessia mentions they were undone in their efforts to build the Crucible by indoctrinated forces that thought they could control the Reapers. Given how it all plays out at least the hopes of what the Crucible could be were known by indoctrinated forces in both cycles and this fact would be known by the high level military planners in this fight. That combined with the previous point and the later thing of the Citadel suddenly altering form could together signal to the Reapers it's time to get out of Dodge. Whether it DOES is only important later, but revealing your hand there is the question.

The allied forces aren't there just to be near the Citadel. They would be there to pin the Reapers in place with their ships or bodies to prevent as much as possible the very thing the Normandy was tying to do (a quick trip to FTL) to maximize the effect of the doomsday device. Running doesn't accomplish anything AT ALL REGARDLESS of the scenario. Crucible works, Reapers can simply leave like the allied fleet did. Even a small number would end galactic civilization. Crucible doesn't work? Reapers live, just in more numbers. Either way, everyone dies, just later.

Again, the military planners of the alliance don't know what the Reapers are going to do as they don't even know what the Crucible will do. But you can't plan on the Reapers being passive observers as a plot device (that you know they have some inkling about) that countless civilizations worked on through time goes about it's business. Because again you have no idea the nature of what it's going to do or how obvious it will be to the targets.

The entire Reaper fleet doesn't have to follow an allied retreat. One Sovereign pretty effectively pasted several assembled fleets with impunity. Just a couple of that class of Reaper surviving would only make the eventual extinction of galactic civ slower not stop it. And I love the irony of how ridiculous you find it for the Reapers not to fire on withdrawing forces despite ZERO evidence a general retreat had been called let alone an orderly one, and you know me not mentioning anything of the sort anyways (heck part of my thesis is the Reapers might very well continue the fight), and somehow the only logical thing for the ENTIRE Reaper force is to then follow them as the only alternative possibility to what we ACTUALLY SEE ON SCREEN, continued combat.

Whatever, I'm done here, the debate was on the ending, and what we actually were presented with was my crew and the Normandy running in the middle of the biggest fight ever with no text, visuals, or voice work stating this included anyone other than them. I'm not interested in further debating fanon explanations for what should have made a whole lot more sense without them.

You can rebut to your heart's content, we aren't going to change each other's minds, and as a result I think we both have better things to be doing.

I don't get why people are defending this ending. If I wrote a story with a deus ex machina for the ending and submitted it to a book publisher the editor who looked over it would tell me to never write fiction again. If a movie or theater play had an ending like that, it would have never gotten off the script. Yet Bioware is getting defended by people claiming it would "set a precedent", which is nothing but a half ass slippery slope claim with no bearing. Here we are trying to convince society that Video Games are as much an art form as other entertainment and our so called crown jewel (ME3) ends in a format considered an insult to the audience at every other writing medium. Either Roger Ebert is right or we have a ways to go before we get there.

@TheHT: @TheHT said:

@N7 said:

@TheHT: There we go. I couldn't click the spoilers for ANY REASON. The point of the ending was to shine a light of positivity down, no doubt about that. But when coupled with the realization SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

The thing people seem to keep forgetting is that they're are still space ships. Just because the relays are destroyed doesn't mean no one can travel through space. They probably won't reach home any time soon, but they can still travel around the system they're in.

And I assume communication across systems is still possible? The the next step for the civilizations of the galaxy would naturally be to rebuild and repair, and I don't see why that doesn't include finding new means for FTL travel, coordinating efforts from across the galaxy.

And for the Normandy, with a large and capable crew including a well developed AI that's also a part of the ship, I'm sure they could repair it and find others, whichever system they find themselves in.

Just because they have spaceships doesn't mean their not screwed. Since there are only 2 "habitable" planets in the Solar system, one of which is a desert, the other on fire, they really have no way to go. They have to leave Sol.

If one of the first results on Google is to be trusted, we are 40000 light years away from the galatic center. Since some places like Rannoch and Omega are literally on the other side of the galaxy, its like 80000~ light years away, so the Quarians probably won't be seeing their home world in the near future.

And communication in Mass Effect used com bouys which made use of the relays, so there will be no communication with the rest of the Galaxy. Furthermore, one would think a lot of the top scientists would be either on the citadel or near earth working on the crucible, so....the galaxy is fucked.

"Finally, you can't leave your audience at the most intense point of the experience. You have to bring them back down so they feel some closure. Otherwise they'll feel as though the experience was truncated or ended abruptly. This is the very rule we break to create cliffhangers, but, unless that's your objective, a well-crafted holistic piece should spend a little bit of time at the end bringing the audience back to where they engage with the piece as a whole. If you get them hugely invested in what's going on in the final moments and then just cut to credits, you're only gonna leave people frustrated."

- Daniel Floyd, Extra Credits

@huser said:

@TheHT said:

@huser said:

You can assume that's what the Reapers are doing because they already have what they need: The Citadel. They were just chillin when they were attacked. If the allied forces retreat then it's back to harvesting humans to increase their numbers, as is their primary tactic.

Allied forces knowing details about the Crucible? Javik doesn't know what it does either. No one knows what it does. Or do you mean the Reapers knowing about the Crucible for at least 2 cycles? Why? In Javik's cycle the Citadel was taken early on, and if I recall correctly the Crucible was only actually built in the current cycle.

The activation of the Crucible is their best bet at destroying the Reapers. Once it's activated, the situation is out of the fleets hands, and their all or nothing attack was strictly speaking a success. If it in fact carries a destructive quality that would also affect all ships in the area, then they're all dead for nothing. Do you think they think they need to be directly beside the Crucible in order for it to be effective, or to draw the Reapers in?

Potentially throwing their lives away by sticking around when the Crucible actives is pointless. The situation is entirely out of their hands. If the Crucible doesn't destroy the Reapers, and they actually lose all hope like you said, then they can fly back and go out in a glorious hail of laser beams and explosions all they want. But sticking around while a supposed super-weapon powers up in nonsense.

What exactly are the Reapers going to do about the Citadel changing its shape? Destroy it? Are you forgetting that the Catalyst is on the Citadel? That they're using it to harvest humans?

Why exactly do you think the entire Reaper force would follow an allied retreat? And a retreat of that scale won't happen instantaneously, it will take time, which is why when Shepard is on the Citadel there's still combat going on outside. The Reapers are not just going to stop firing and let the forces pass through them for a clean retreat. Just because they don't show that not happening, doesn't mean ridiculous possibilities like that are in any way likely to have happened.

Allied forces don't know anything specific about the Crucible. They don't need to to go in for their all in attack, and that's all the Reapers would need to know about the Crucible...that's it's sufficiently important that it can draw in the combined forces of the entire galaxy to try and get to it. Javik/VI on Thessia mentions they were undone in their efforts to build the Crucible by indoctrinated forces that thought they could control the Reapers. Given how it all plays out at least the hopes of what the Crucible could be were known by indoctrinated forces in both cycles and would be known by the high level military planners in this fight. That combined with the previous point and the later thing of the Citadel suddenly altering form could together signal to the Reapers it's time to get out of Dodge. Whether it DOES is only important later, but revealing your hand there is the question.

The allied forces aren't there just to be near the Citadel. They are dead to pin the Reapers in place with their ships or bodies to prevent as much as possible the very thing the Normandy was tying to do (a quick trip to FTL) to maximize the effect of the doomsday device. Running doesn't accomplish anything AT ALL REGARDLESS of the scenario. Crucible works, Reapers can simply leave like the allied fleet did. Even if not the full force of the Reapers, just a couple of the wrong type can still devastate the galaxy with near impunity. Crucible doesn't work? They'll all get to die later anyways.

Again, the military planners of the alliance don't know what the Reapers are going to do as they don't even know what the Crucible will do. But you can't plan on the Reapers being passive observers as a plot device (that you know they have some inkling about) goes about it's business.

The entire Reaper fleet doesn't have to follow an allied retreat. One Sovereign pretty effectively pasted several assembled fleets with impunity. Just a couple of that class of Reaper surviving would only make the eventual extinction of galactic civ slower not stop it. And I love the irony of how ridiculous you find it for the Reapers not to fire on withdrawing forces despite ZERO evidence a general retreat had been called let alone an orderly one, and you know me not mentioning anything of the sort anyways (heck part of my thesis is the Reapers might very well continue the fight), and somehow the only logical thing is for the ENTIRE Reaper force to then follow them as the only alternative to what we ACTUALLY SEE ON SCREEN, continued combat.

Whatever, I'm done here, the debate was on the ending, and what we actually were presented with was my crew and the Normandy running in the middle of the biggest fight ever with no text, visuals, or voice work stating this included anyone other than them. I'm not interested in further debating fanon explanations for what should have made a whole lot more sense without them.

Being undone by indoctrinated with motives similar to the Illusive Man doesn't imply that the Reapers would have learned about the Crucible. Knowing that the organics are trying to stop them does not logically lead to the Crucible. And not know what it can do also includes how far its reach is. There isn't anything to suggest they would be able to outrun the effects of the Crucible.

They're there the ensure the Crucible is protected and activated. That's it. Where does this 'maximizing the effect' come in? It's just activate the thing and it either works or doesn't.

The only thing the allied forces care about as far as Reaper activity is protecting the Crucible and giving sufficient time to activate it. Once it's activated they're out. Since Shepard was seen going down, the mission was in limbo. But Shepard got back up and on to the Citadel. After being contacted by Hackett, the mission was back on track, and once activated, was complete.

If the Reapers are so capable, then there wouldn't be any urgency to separate and run down a retreating allied force. The radio chatter calls for a retreat. Again, with Shepard supposedly dead the mission was in disarray. That's when ground forces in the area began to pull back to regroup. When we see the Citadel activating, the fleets are already gone, the Normady too. All that's left in the area is debris and Reapers, so there was obviously a fleet retreat.

The Normandy isn't running in the middle of the battle, because when the Citadel activates after the final choice is made, there aren't any allied ships around. The battle's over. They absolutely should have shown all this, and that's likely what they're going to do, since apparently filling in the blanks with reason explanations is too great a task given the potential for unreasonable explanations having instead taken place during those gaps. I suppose that's how the Indoctrination theory ended up coming to be.

@Puaru said:

@TheHT: @TheHT said:

@N7 said:

@TheHT: There we go. I couldn't click the spoilers for ANY REASON. The point of the ending was to shine a light of positivity down, no doubt about that. But when coupled with the realization SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

The thing people seem to keep forgetting is that they're are still space ships. Just because the relays are destroyed doesn't mean no one can travel through space. They probably won't reach home any time soon, but they can still travel around the system they're in.

And I assume communication across systems is still possible? The the next step for the civilizations of the galaxy would naturally be to rebuild and repair, and I don't see why that doesn't include finding new means for FTL travel, coordinating efforts from across the galaxy.

And for the Normandy, with a large and capable crew including a well developed AI that's also a part of the ship, I'm sure they could repair it and find others, whichever system they find themselves in.

Just because they have spaceships doesn't mean their not screwed. Since there are only 2 "habitable" planets in the Solar system, one of which is a desert, the other on fire, they really have no way to go. They have to leave Sol.

If one of the first results on Google is to be trusted, we are 40000 light years away from the galatic center. Since some places like Rannoch and Omega are literally on the other side of the galaxy, its like 80000~ light years away, so the Quarians probably won't be seeing their home world in the near future.

And communication in Mass Effect used com bouys which made use of the relays, so there will be no communication with the rest of the Galaxy. Furthermore, one would think a lot of the top scientists would be either on the citadel or near earth working on the crucible, so....the galaxy is fucked.

But they've got a significant leg up with their ships that being "completely stranded on Earth" isn't a reasonable conclusion.

I was worried that was the case. I agree, they won't be seeing home any time soon. Anyone on the Citadel is likely pink slime, but those near Earth would either have a bunch of dead Reapers to learn from or potentially cooperative Reapers. But I don't see the latter happening any time soon, despite who's in control.

So it looks like FTL travel is fucked. The galaxy though? Saved.

I hear that in the new dlc, there will be an ending with all the colors of the rainbow!!!!!!

soooo.... should I wait till summer to finish playing the game?

actually, I don't think i can do that...

Maybe the Star Child will narrate the epilogue slides?

@Tetsuo said:

Good job Bioware, buckle to idiot illiterate nerds. The endings were fine and fuck the haters. Aww poor babby didn't get the Animal House ending explaining how Tali went on to go to college and Legion became a billionaire porn director and Liara and Shepard retired to a little farm in Kansas and had a bunch of cyan babies.

Don't presume to know what happens in my Mass Effect ending. It's a little farm in TEXAS, got it???

@Tetsuo: Yeah instead we got an ending that makes zero note of any of your decisions made in any of the 3 games.

I haven't finished ME3 yet but hell, BioWare should've told the nerd herd to stick it. Additional explanation will likely not change anyone's mind, and will only lead to an additional firestorm of hate once the DLC is released. Whatever, I'll watch the add'l content on YouTube.

who wants to place bets, that indoctrination will be slowly introduced as the excuse for the ending so you have no reason to speculate anymore about why everything sucks. Sheppard got mind raped by the reapers, thanks for the save fans from bioware dlc.

???????????

profit.

Whoever wins. We lose.

@Tetsuo said:

Good job Bioware, buckle to idiot illiterate nerds. The endings were fine and fuck the haters. Aww poor babby didn't get the Animal House ending explaining how Tali went on to go to college and Legion became a billionaire porn director and Liara and Shepard retired to a little farm in Kansas and had a bunch of cyan babies.

Thats not what people wanted. No one wants that. That is not the problem with the ending.

I would love it if they used this as an effort to troll everyone who complained about the ending and kill off the entirety of the crew in a Final Destination style montage.

Wow, a lot of hate at Bioware for this. Either A) they planned this all along to make more money (which would be shitty but seems unlikely to me) or B) they listened to MASSIVE amounts of complaining by the fans of the series and are doing what they can to please them.

I loved the trilogy and I did not have a problem with the ending, but I won't complain about free additional content. It feels good, man.

"This is the way the world ends

Not with a bang but a whimper"

Thanks a fucking lot, BioWare.

@Tetsuo said:

Good job Bioware, buckle to idiot illiterate nerds. The endings were fine and fuck the haters. Aww poor babby didn't get the Animal House ending explaining how Tali went on to go to college and Legion became a billionaire porn director and Liara and Shepard retired to a little farm in Kansas and had a bunch of cyan babies.

illiterate

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I don't have a real problem with the endings as they are. Disappointing? Sure, but I wasn't whining for a new ending. That being said, movies get "extended/directors cuts" every so often. As long as they don't charge anything for it then it's fine by me.

I seriously don't get how people are mad at them for "buckling" to the fans. From the sound of it, it doesn't look like they're rewriting the ending, just adding some cutscenes... for free. It really just seems like a win/win situation to me.

The ending didn't have much closure but I didn't hate it, I accepted it. That was the game Bioware, yeah for me it was buggy as hell and crashed a few times but I loved it regardless.

I don't know where gamers get off thinking their entitled to quite frankly harass Bioware and EA and demand they 'change the ending'. Probably 90% of the people that are complaining don't have 10% of the skills to make a game of Mass Effect 3's scale. It's this false sense of entitlement that doesn't happen in with other media/in other mediums.

Such humility from Bioware. Imagine what Blizzard could learn from their example.

@Clubvodka said:

Probably 90% of the people that are complaining don't have 10% of the skills to make a game of Mass Effect 3's scale.

So no one should ever criticize anything unless they have the ability to do a better job? This is such a ridiculous thing to suggest, and yet I continue to see in all sorts of internet debates. Why is that?

@Clubvodka said:

It's this false sense of entitlement that doesn't happen in with other media/in other mediums.

This is clearly false. Fan reactions constantly shape TV Shows, movie sequels, books, albums, and pretty much any other form of media.

Although I do disagree with you, there are plenty of better points that you could be making here.

@Tetsuo said:

Aww poor babby didn't get the Animal House ending explaining how Tali went on to go to college and Legion became a billionaire porn director and Liara and Shepard retired to a little farm in Kansas and had a bunch of cyan babies.

What are you talking about? I got my Animal House ending. It's right here:

Now I just want an ending that doesn't suck.

It is unfixable so why bother.

My only problem with the ending was the lack of closure and individuality. So this sounds great to me.

@mutha3 said:

@TheHT said:

@mutha3 said:

He means "Organics will inevitably be wiped out by synthetics", synthetics are order/organics are chaos yadda yadda yadda

What about that is incoherent and nonsensical?

"Why?" Answer this question^ ME3, sure doesn't.

That's the Catalysts purpose: to protect organics from being wiped out by synthetics. The solution to which is the Reapers and the harvest cycle. It doesn't have to be true, but the Catalysts purpose deals with a possibility rather than anything concrete.

As such, despite the conclusion to the geth situation, the possibility of synthetics being created that ultimately destroy all organics remains.

All the criticism of the ending is completely valid. Bioware took the laziest possible way out of a story by introducing a god like being in the last 10 minutes. It's lazy and completely goes against what Bioware had done so well for the first two games and 95% of Mass Effect 3.

You can attempt to call it art all you want, the effort in the ending is so below what Bioware are capable of and this image illustrates just how much care went into the "multiple" endings.

I was fine with the ending and have moved on. Only thing that worries me is if they had to spend more time on this instead of making cool side stories like overlord and shadow broker DLC for ME2. I would love to see them tell animatrix style stories with the DLC, how about getting to play as Anderson when he is on earth or an alliance member who was with him. That would be cool

@mutha3 said:

@TheHT said:

@mutha3 said:

@TheHT said:

@mutha3 said:

He means "Organics will inevitably be wiped out by synthetics", synthetics are order/organics are chaos yadda yadda yadda

What about that is incoherent and nonsensical?

"Why?" Answer this question^ ME3, sure doesn't.

That's the Catalysts purpose: to protect organics from being wiped out by synthetics. The solution to which is the Reapers and the harvest cycle. It doesn't have to be true, but the Catalysts purpose deals with a possibility rather than anything concrete.

I don't think you understood my question. Shepard does not reject the Catalyst's shoddy logic, he does not try to argue otherwise or search for a new solution-- he takes everything vent kid says at face value.

Problem is everything vent kid says is kind of dumb.

As such, despite the conclusion to the geth situation, the possibility
of synthetics being created that ultimately destroy all organics
remains.

Seriously, disregard the Geth for a second-- why do Synthetics always end up destroying Organics? What makes Synthetics more dangerous than a fast-breeding race like the Rachni or the Krogan? Why do they need a solution like the Reapers? ME3 doesn't even attempt to explain this. ME3 does not contextualize this. ME3 suddenly pulls this nonexistent conflict out of its ass in the last 5 minutes of the trilogy, and shoehorns us into 3 profoundly stupid decisions. There is no thematic or narrative build-up to this of ANY kind. "it doesn't have to be true". Well, it isn't! But then all 3 solutions the Catalyst gives you are solutions to a problem that doesn't even exist. All 3 of these "solutions" utterly destroy Shepard's world and leaves everyone she ever cared for BONED. All 3 options you are given are either morally deplorable or stupid. Genocide an entire race? Take control of robot cuddlefish that can control your mind? Forcibly change everyone's body in the galaxy against their will? How about "order the fleet to blow up the citadel along with vent kid"?

Could not have said it better myself.

Were any of you guys truly expecting big changes in the endings? Ha! XD

It's simply gonna be a short "epilogue"-sort of thing. Expanding as it says here! They wouldn't be changing the endings, think for a second the huge world it would require! (+ translations for all the other languages and all that..)

2012 game i don't want to hear another thing about award: MASS EFFECT 3

Finally! Fingers crossed we can put all this behind us now, and the internet can shut the fuck up about Mass Effect 3's ending.

Happy to hear that they're just adding to the ending though, and not changing what was already there. Good job Bioware!

So I guess "summer" is now the best time for me to play ME3.

@Creamypies said:

Finally! Fingers crossed we can put all this behind us now, and the internet can shut the fuck up about Mass Effect 3's ending.

Happy to hear that they're just adding to the ending though, and not changing what was already there. Good job Bioware!

One of your sentences cancels the other one out.

@Apocralyptic: @ScoreSetter: No, they're not changing the ending. They're just adding on to it to bring more closure to the story.

And that is exactly what i wanted. I never had a problem with the ending itself as much as the fact that it just cuts off at the climax and leaves every damn subplot hanging. Damn it, I want to know if i was right to cure the genophage! Where there any wars? How long did it take to develop a viable FTL method that let the fleets come to earth go back home? Did the squadmates I took with me on the final mission survive? And why the hell was Joker using a Mass Relay?

This extended cut better answer those questions.

If EA is going to listen to the masses for once. Then how about a good football game.

But those aren't necessary for a complete ending. Bioware has ignored the tiny fact setup Shepard as the most destructive, apocalyptic force in the galaxy where that was probably better than what The Reapers had planned but not by much. They completely failed to demonstrate any of that where answering irrelevant questions and highlighting random post even facts will still make the ending hollow.

Can't be fixed... ending was FUBAR

@SpaceInsomniac said:

@Clubvodka said:

Probably 90% of the people that are complaining don't have 10% of the skills to make a game of Mass Effect 3's scale.

So no one should ever criticize anything unless they have the ability to do a better job? This is such a ridiculous thing to suggest, and yet I continue to see in all sorts of internet debates. Why is that?

@Clubvodka said:

It's this false sense of entitlement that doesn't happen in with other media/in other mediums.

This is clearly false. Fan reactions constantly shape TV Shows, movie sequels, books, albums, and pretty much any other form of media.

Although I do disagree with you, there are plenty of better points that you could be making here.

I agree it's the most inane charge to levy. You can't do better so why are you complaining? So...then do you buy just about EVERY piece of everything you can because the producers can make it better than anything you could do? Since you apparently aren't in a position to judge you had better accept everything. Ludicrous and I really don't know how anyone (especially the folks that think they got "it" over the unwashed masses that don't get Bioware's ending) even remotely self aware could make that kind of argument.

The second one is somehow even MORE ludicrous. Fan reaction doesn't affect other mediums? So then Nikki and Paulo were running around Lost a lot more than I recall? Sherlock effing Holmes didn't come back from the dead? Guess what, these "artists" are trying to sell stuff. If they want to continue to do that, they damn well better cater to their entitled audience or they will find someone else who will.

@mutha3 said:

@TheHT said:

@mutha3 said:

@TheHT said:

@mutha3 said:

He means "Organics will inevitably be wiped out by synthetics", synthetics are order/organics are chaos yadda yadda yadda

What about that is incoherent and nonsensical?

"Why?" Answer this question^ ME3, sure doesn't.

That's the Catalysts purpose: to protect organics from being wiped out by synthetics. The solution to which is the Reapers and the harvest cycle. It doesn't have to be true, but the Catalysts purpose deals with a possibility rather than anything concrete.

I don't think you understood my question. Shepard does not reject the Catalyst's shoddy logic, he does not try to argue otherwise or search for a new solution-- he takes everything vent kid says at face value.

Problem is everything vent kid says is kind of dumb.

As such, despite the conclusion to the geth situation, the possibility of synthetics being created that ultimately destroy all organics remains.

Seriously, disregard the Geth for a second-- why do Synthetics always end up destroying Organics? What makes Synthetics more dangerous than a fast-breeding race like the Rachni or the Krogan? Why do they need a solution like the Reapers? ME3 doesn't even attempt to explain this. ME3 does not contextualize this. ME3 suddenly pulls this nonexistent conflict out of its ass in the last 5 minutes of the trilogy, and shoehorns us into 3 profoundly stupid decisions. There is no thematic or narrative build-up to this of ANY kind. "it doesn't have to be true". Well, it isn't! But then all 3 solutions the Catalyst gives you are solutions to a problem that doesn't even exist. All 3 of these "solutions" utterly destroy Shepard's world and leaves everyone she ever cared for BONED. All 3 options you are given are either morally deplorable or stupid. Genocide an entire race? Take control of robot cuddlefish that can control your mind? Forcibly change everyone's body in the galaxy against their will? How about "order the fleet to blow up the citadel along with vent kid"?

To be fair, your question was "Why?"

Yeah, he takes everything at face value in the sense that he doesn't thin it's lying about anything. He doesn't accept that synthetics will absolutely eventually wipe out organics and he does question the Catalysts current solution.

The Catalyst says that the harvest cycles are the solution to the problem of synthetics wiping out organics. We can tell by the way it expresses its existence as well as its appearance and the way it speaks and what it says that it's an AI. Coupling those two, the Catalyst was either tasked with solving that problem or designed to solve that problem. I suppose its possible that it came to that problem on its own through observations. However, that it speaks with such absolution (contrary to an AI speaking with more probabilistic verbiage), so it's far more likely that the Catalyst has that hard-wired into its being.

In any case, you can see the potential threat of synthetics if you only consider one aspect of the nature of organics. They're violent. Whether synthetics are created violent or not, as we've seen in the geth they're still just as capable of violence, whether their intent be malicious or justified. Ignoring the geth would be to ignore evidence of the possibility of being wiped out by synthetics.

But that peace the geth can have with organics doesn't remove the possibility of synthetics destroying all organics. Whether through violence or through integration doesn't matter, and whether or not this ever actually happens at all, the Catalyst cannot ignore the possibility of it happening.

The synthetic vs. organic conflict has been present throughout the series. From the introduction of the geth in the first game, the implants on Saren, the Reapers themselves, husks and the like, quarian history, implants on Shepard, Legion, EDI.

Saying it isn't true is very different from saying it doesn't have to be true. All you're doing is speaking with the same absolution as the Catalyst, except it's an ancient AI that's been programmed to think like that. Shepard understands that it's possible that synthetics wipe out organics but also that's it's possible they don't. Saying they will invariably not is speaking with certainty unearned, just as the Catalyst does.

The solutions are all problems to the Reaper threat. Whether you concern yourself with the very real problem of synthetics and organics existing together or not will obviously influence your decision, but won't necessisarily cancel out any of the choices. In all of them the galaxy is saved and life goes on. You think because the Mass Relays are all gone all intelligent organic life in the galaxy will just sit down and die because they can zip around the galaxy and get back to their home planet? That's ridiculous.

Every choice has a good and a bad to it, otherwise the choices wouldn't be difficult choices at all. How convenient it would be then, to get to where you are and have a happy ending where everything stays the same except for the Reapers becoming dust waiting just for you. You've made hard decisions throughout the entire series, but now at the most pivotal moment you can just stop thinking and it's cake for everyone.

And destroying the Citadel would only result in Reapers destroying the allied fleets. Congratulations, you've destroyed a part of the Catalyst, but your cycle just lost the war.

@TheHT said:

Yeah, he takes everything at face value in the sense that he doesn't thin it's lying about anything. He doesn't accept that synthetics will absolutely eventually wipe out organics and he does question the Catalysts current solution.

The Catalyst says that the harvest cycles are the solution to the problem of synthetics wiping out organics. We can tell by the way it expresses its existence as well as its appearance and the way it speaks and what it says that it's an AI. Coupling those two, the Catalyst was either tasked with solving that problem or designed to solve that problem. I suppose its possible that it came to that problem on its own through observations. However, that it speaks with such absolution (contrary to an AI speaking with more probabilistic verbiage), so it's far more likely that the Catalyst has that hard-wired into its being.

In any case, you can see the potential threat of synthetics if you only consider one aspect of the nature of organics. They're violent. Whether synthetics are created violent or not, as we've seen in the geth they're still just as capable of violence, whether their intent be malicious or justified. Ignoring the geth would be to ignore evidence of the possibility of being wiped out by synthetics.

But that peace the geth can have with organics doesn't remove the possibility of synthetics destroying all organics. Whether through violence or through integration doesn't matter, and whether or not this ever actually happens at all, the Catalyst cannot ignore the possibility of it happening.

The synthetic vs. organic conflict has been present throughout the series. From the introduction of the geth in the first game, the implants on Saren, the Reapers themselves, husks and the like, quarian history, implants on Shepard, Legion, EDI.

Saying it isn't true is very different from saying it doesn't have to be true. All you're doing is speaking with the same absolution as the Catalyst, except it's an ancient AI that's been programmed to think like that. Shepard understands that it's possible that synthetics wipe out organics but also that's it's possible they don't. Saying they will invariably not is speaking with certainty unearned, just as the Catalyst does.

The solutions are all problems to the Reaper threat. Whether you concern yourself with the very real problem of synthetics and organics existing together or not will obviously influence your decision, but won't necessisarily cancel out any of the choices. In all of them the galaxy is saved and life goes on. You think because the Mass Relays are all gone all intelligent organic life in the galaxy will just sit down and die because they can zip around the galaxy and get back to their home planet? That's ridiculous.

Every choice has a good and a bad to it, otherwise the choices wouldn't be difficult choices at all. How convenient it would be then, to get to where you are and have a happy ending where everything stays the same except for the Reapers becoming dust waiting just for you. You've made hard decisions throughout the entire series, but now at the most pivotal moment you can just stop thinking and it's cake for everyone.

And destroying the Citadel would only result in Reapers destroying the allied fleets. Congratulations, you've destroyed a part of the Catalyst, but your cycle just lost the war.

You think Sheppard had thought through all 500+ words of this explanation and internalized it in the 2 minutes or so he went from never suspecting the existence of space-baby-thing to being presented with a galaxy-affecting choice? You think that members of the audience were supposed to construct that whole explanation while the ending was playing out, or even suspend disbelief in the moment so they could write their own such essays later?

See, this illustrates the whole problem. Even if I accept what you've said (much of which I don't, but only because it just doesn't feel right to me), there's still another 4500 words that need to be written to address any arbitrary 9 other top-ten issues I can come up with for the ending.

So, 5000 words to answer questions I didn't have 9.5 minutes before the credits started rolling. Questions for which my immediate answer, in the moment, was "bullshit!". This isn't the sign of a well-made ending.

BUT...please don't take this as me attacking you personally. Truth is, your discussion in this thread has been interesting, worth reading, and obviously coming from someone else who cares about Mass Effect enough for me to want to sit down for beers with. ;)

he does question the Catalysts current solution.

 

In any case, you can see the potential threat of synthetics if you only consider one aspect of the nature of organics. They're violent. Whether synthetics are created violent or not, as we've seen in the geth they're still just as capable of violence, whether their intent be malicious or justified. Ignoring the geth would be to ignore evidence of the possibility of being wiped out by synthetics.
 

But that peace the geth can have with organics doesn't remove the possibility of synthetics destroying all organics. Whether through violence or through integration doesn't matter, and whether or not this ever actually happens at all, the Catalyst cannot ignore the possibility of it happening.

 
This is different from the Krogan, the Rachni, the Turians, the Humans or any organic race......How?  Synthetics pose the largest threat to the galaxy because....?
 

 
 The synthetic vs. organic conflict has been present throughout the series. From the introduction of the geth in the first game, the implants on Saren, the Reapers themselves, husks and the like, quarian history, implants on Shepard, Legion, EDI.

Saying it isn't true is very different from saying it doesn't have to be true. All you're doing is speaking with the same absolution as the Catalyst, except it's an ancient AI that's been programmed to think like that. Shepard understands that it's possible that synthetics wipe out organics but also that's it's possible they don't. Saying they will invariably not is speaking with certainty unearned, just as the Catalyst does.
 
 

 
You think because the Mass Relays are all gone all intelligent organic life in the galaxy will just sit down and die because they can zip around the galaxy and get back to their home planet? That's ridiculous.
 

And destroying the Citadel would only result in Reapers destroying the allied fleets. Congratulations, you've destroyed a part of the Catalyst, but your cycle just lost the war.

@mutha3 said:

Losing the Citadel means: -The reapers lost their leader and their death trap (the Citadel)

Reaper kid isn't there. He could be way far away, on some hard drive somewhere, and projecting an image of himself onto the Citadel (much like speaking to the Illusive man in ME2). Or he could be appearing to you as an image in your own mind. Or he could have god-like powers that you'll never understand, and be completely omnipotent.

Whatever the case may be, I see absolutely no indication that destroying the Citadel will do anything more to stop Reaper Kid than turning around and shooting him with the gun in your hand. It's just not an option.

But make no mistake, I'm not defending the ending. The ending sucks.

@mutha3 said:

Losing the Citadel means: -The reapers lost their leader and their death trap (the Citadel)

Reaper kid isn't there

I would like to re-sequence the events of the ending. I'd have Anderson there with the magic space baby, and as soon as space baby starts spouting almost exactly the same nonsense as TIM less than 3 minutes earlier, he'd utter the same response: "Listen to yourself. You're indoctrinated."

Actually, now that I think of it, that'd be a good REEEEEEMIIIIIX! Simply recut the ending with Anderson saying "Listen to yourself. You're indoctrinated." after every line that's clearly ludicrous.

I'll be honest, I haven't witnessed much fan support for the endings as they stand. Even the people who 'liked them' are hard pressed to say that they lived up to expectations ('they could be better' tends to be the general acknowledgement) The only people I've seen who are intent on the endings not being changed are sanctimonious game 'journalists' (and I use that world loosely) who believe that when Dr Muzyka bandies around phrases like 'Artistic Integrity' it actually means anything to with respect to a game made by hundreds of people, under the auspices of a share holder owned corporation. I'm not entirely sure you can grant 'integrity' to a company that puts a 'game journalist' into their game for the marketing publicity let alone grant them 'artistic integrity'. Stanley Kubrick & Johnathan Blow it might be argued had/have Artistic integrity because they both stuck to their guns in terms of delivering their work without compromise, but I just don't think you can apply that same rule to Bioware. If they had integrity they'd of kept to Drews original outline for the series rather than change it at the eleventh hour that basically undermined the entirety of the previous two games.