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_Nuno_

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Aren't we getting a little sick of the fantasy MMO?

Why aren't there any historicly accurate MMO games? Isn't this something that more developers should consider? I can think of a few periods that could be interesting to visit in a MMO, like the Roman Republic or the Cruzades, the Napoleonic Wars or even WWI and WWII. Instead companies start to craft their own world even if the lore they come up with isn't all that great. It's always the place that orcs and demons and dragons inhabit, and I Iove that, don't get me wrong, I played through the Warcraft games and got into WOW for awhile, but enough is enough.
 
It seems to me that the fantasy worlds created by companies don't have an obvious advantage over the real thing. But it's probably easier to stick with the tried and tested formulas: 
WWII ---> FPS/Strategy
Roman Republic ---> Strategy
MMO ---> fantasy universe
 
More than that, these fantasy MMO's have a gameplay that relies solely on combat. Sure they put fishing and cooking and weaponsmith professions in there, but is there really any gameplay bonus that comes from these additions? I believe it's just a matter of time before the MMO market starts shrinking, because the impact that WOW had is already wearing down. WOW membership is decreasing at this point, and its not because there are better MMO's out there, it's because people get tired of killing 6 Kobold Wizards over and over again. 
 
Besides, all the effort you put into your quests has virtually zero impact on the WOW universe.  In this last aspect I hope that KOTOR:OR does a lit bit more for the player than WOW did. 
 
It seems to me like these are the main flaws that plague the MMO genre: 
-Been-there-done-that Universes
-Next-to-null impact of the player on the Universe
-Repetitive combat-focused Gameplay 
 
Do you agree? Love some feedback.
Cheers

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Red

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Edited By Red

It's a crap of a lot harder to get a loot lust going on without the armor and weapons of the fantasy setting. 

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NTM

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Edited By NTM

I get it, you prefer games that are plausible over games that have a lot of fantasy that never seem like they'll ever really exist. Same. I know it has nothing to do with MMO, but, now? I can't really stand games like Final Fantasy. But I can stand a game like Crysis, or Dead Space, because although they aren't real, I can imagine something like it happening. Anyways, that's not exactly what you were saying. But -shrugs-. I do agree with you. Plus, it'd probably make it a lot more emotional if that happened.
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sjschmidt93

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Edited By sjschmidt93
@_Nuno_ said:
WWII ---> FPS/Strategy 
Roman Republic ---> Strategy 
MMO ---> fantasy universe
Setting ---> Genres
Setting ---> Genre
Genre ----> Theme
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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_
@insouciant: LOL. You're right. Should've called it SW:OR. Didn't realise that until you pointed out the repetition.
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Whisperkill

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Edited By Whisperkill
@_Nuno_: I dont think there are a lot of WWII strategy games, pretty much just company of heroes, which is awesome
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tmek

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Edited By tmek

 I've wondered about this a lot myself.  Why are fantasy environments so popular for MMOs?

In a typical fantasy world most of it is natural or preindustrial.  Most objects aren't  complex or interactive.  For example a small thatched hut or log cabin, with lots of inanimate objects in it, crude wooden chairs and tables, bowls, pottery.  These things just sit there in real life and don't really have much complexity or interaction and that's easy to replicate in the game.  When I enter that little cottage if it's done well it can feel believable or at least I can allow my mind to pretend i'm in that world.  When the need for something complex does arrive they don't have to work very hard to make it work you just know it's 'magic' and your brain accepts that.

When i play in a modern or futuristic setting with things like machinery, televisions, computers, vehicles and all of the things we are familiar with and are complex and we expect complex interactions with them.  When I play Star Trek online everything feels like it's made of cardboard to look like advanced computers and technology but I can't really interact with it as you might see in a sci-fi tv show or movie and that's frustrating.  Grand Theft Auto IV comes close to succeeding in this area for me though it's pretty amazing how much modern interactivity they give in that game.

So yeah the basic answer is that it's a lot easier for the developers to just make up whatever and explain it with MAGIC!  It's much harder to simulate realitic modern environments in a believable and fun way.

But while i'm rambling here one of the things that really bugs me about MMORPGs after the original everquest is how they start you out insanely powerful (compared to a average mortal human being).  At launch in everquest one you basically start out as a normal man with a stick or a dagger some rags for a shirt and and had to go and make your way killing snakes and rats and bees for honey.  The whole adventure was then discovering spells and going from this normal human fighting rats into a powerful wizard with spells like ice comet!  As you progress and gain riches you might one day be able to buy a horse.

These days you start out with all kinds of armor (at least visually) and magic and often it's easy to get a mount, probably a *flying one*, very early in the game.  You basically start out as a super-powered human relative to a typical mortal man.

Anyway I know a lot of you are to young to remember (god i sound like the old grampa complaining about having to walk to school 10 miles in the snow uphill both ways) but to me nothing has ever come close to the experiences my friends and I had playing the original everquest in the first few years.  that game was BRUTAL up until the later years when it started getting soft and that's what made it also extremely fun and rewarding.

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insouciant

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Edited By insouciant

@_Nuno_

said:

In this last aspect I hope that KOTOR:OR does a lit bit more for the player than WOW did.  


 What is KOTOR:OR?  Knights of the Old Republic: Old Republic?  Was that an early name for Star Wars: The Old Republic?

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Alphiehyr

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Edited By Alphiehyr

No not really. Because I haven't played much.

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lazyturtle

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Edited By lazyturtle

I like the idea...maybe late 1600s to 1700s..colonial carribean..kinda like Pirates! but an mmo? 
I'd also love a survival horror mmo..like a resident evil or land of the dead (that crappy Ramero movie) scenario..either would be cool. We've got Sci-fi on the horizon with Star Wars and current with Star Trek (haven't played).  I'd like a Shadowrun mmo..that'd rule.

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deactivated-5cdb69f34ac28

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@Lethkhar said:
" @Phantom_Gardener said:
" No i aint getting sick of fantasy mmorpg's, in fact i havent seen an really good mmorpg since WoW. Everquest 2 and Lord of the Rings Online are decent,  but besides from that there aint much to choose from. And no i dont think a history based mmo would be a very good idea "
I'm sorry, but Guild Wars pwned WoW in pretty much every way. "
I agree 100%. Guild Wars is a better game than WoW.
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DuhQbnSiLo

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Edited By DuhQbnSiLo
@natetodamax said:
" Stabbing people with enchanted swords while casting fireballs and dancing in the middle of a battle doesn't get old. "
this,,,,,,
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Lethkhar

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Edited By Lethkhar
@Phantom_Gardener said:
" No i aint getting sick of fantasy mmorpg's, in fact i havent seen an really good mmorpg since WoW. Everquest 2 and Lord of the Rings Online are decent,  but besides from that there aint much to choose from. And no i dont think a history based mmo would be a very good idea "
I'm sorry, but Guild Wars pwned WoW in pretty much every way.
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turbomonkey138

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Edited By turbomonkey138
@TooWalrus said:
" I think that MMO's with real life limitations would be pretty lame, actually. "
World of office work .....
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Phantom_Gardener

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Edited By Phantom_Gardener

No i aint getting sick of fantasy mmorpg's, in fact i havent seen an really good mmorpg since WoW. Everquest 2 and Lord of the Rings Online are decent,  but besides from that there aint much to choose from. And no i dont think a history based mmo would be a very good idea

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xyzygy

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Edited By xyzygy

I'm sick of the Fantasy setting in general. It's part of the reason why Dragon Age didn't do anything for me.

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Lethkhar

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Because most people would be serfs farming the land, which sounds incredibly boring.

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breadfan

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Edited By breadfan

I'm still waiting for a sweet western themed MMO.

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thecleric

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Edited By thecleric

Fantasy works easiest because the typical layout works best, Warrior to tank, Rogue to damage, Mage to support, Cleric to heal 
 
in any other fantasy, how would you explain a meat tank when bullets are involved?

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Venom09

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Edited By Venom09

I see where you're coming from; but unfortunately, as many others have said, it would not make for a great MMO. Combat would be repetitive due to lack of magic. If it's more realistic then theres no mana/health potions. People would have to take time out and rest. 
At least someone is trying to figure something else out, and try something new. It just seems like there wouldn't be enough to create a game, let alone attract enough customers. For now we'll just have to keep playing fantasy MMOs, until someone figures out a way around it.

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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_
@breaking3po:
See now, that's why none of your arguments are any good. You just say it can't be done, and offer no reason as to why it can't be done. Then you just call me a kid, when you don't know my age and find it weird when I call you a kid. 
Know what? I probably have no business calling you a kid. The fact is your obviously senile. So... good for you, just don't bother me anymore.
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breaking3po

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Edited By breaking3po

I offered up a decent reason why it wouldnt work and you offered up a supermultifacetted impossiblity in response.    Whos acting like the kid?  
 
PS. It would probly feel weird if anyone short of a 50 year old was calling me a KID in a serious manner. You are too cool for the internet. Good luck on your awesome game. I'd check it out.
 

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stealthman

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Edited By stealthman

 Let me remind you that the best literature is mainly realistic. Does that mean you can't escape with it? No! because what you want to escape from is your life not reality. Reality can be pretty fun. Hell, it would be a lot of fun to play the life of some powerful person - Hitler? Anyone? What I mean is you don't have to play as some creature killing other creatures in order to have fun. 
Also the problem in MMOs is that the story completely ignores your existence. If I don't feel like a part of the universe what's the point of creating one? Then if it is consistent or not it would not matter much to me.

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penguindust

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Edited By penguindust
@EberKain said:

" Blizzard is posting 5 billion a year in profit, I dont think wow or mmo's are going anywhere. "

This is a very true statement but not in the way perhaps conceived.  With WoW's unheard of success, too many MMO makers choose to follow the same formula.  If it worked for WoW, maybe they too can capture a little piece of that magic by doing the same exact thing.  Ultimately they fail however because, for many of us, if we want "WoW", we'll just go play WoW.  The differences new games make are too inconsequential when compared to the vastness of Azeroth.  After all, Blizzard's been building it and refining it for years now.  And while much older games still exist, WoW has become the standard by which not only the public measures MMO's but it also seems to be the template that game developers too often look to when crafting their new game.  And, so MMO's aren't going anywhere.  They aren't evolving or advancing in new directions.  They are stuck in the gooey success of Warcraft. 
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EberKain

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Edited By EberKain

Blizzard is posting 5 billion a year in profit, I dont think wow or mmo's are going anywhere.

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MarcusOfLycia

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Edited By MarcusOfLycia

I found that WoW was fun because:
 
There were professions: you could craft stuff and it was interesting always looking for new things to create
Classes were dynamic and intricate: any class could be played multiple ways but could always contribute to a different situation
Content was frequently updated
There was just simply a lot to do
 
I see no reason, other than lack of creativity, that another setting outside a WoW/LOTR/D&D universe couldn't be used. There just needs to be someone willing to offer it. I think a historical MMO could be especially interesting if they wove in some fictional/mythological stuff. As in, if it was set in the Roman Era or the days of the Greek golden age, you could have priests to different gods be different classes, each with different abilities. Battles would be over places in the real world, but with that magical twist to them. If you wanted a more historically accurate game, you could even allow some elements of city building, and remove the magic. The possibilities are quite staggering... its just that no one has attempted any of them, or if they have, they haven't done a quality job.
 
By now, people who love video games should know that there is enough creativity in the medium to suggest nothing is impossible. We'll just have to wait and see.

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iam3green

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Edited By iam3green

they are cool, sometimes. i use to play wow for 3 years straight. i took a break for a while then tried to play wow but couldn't. wow is always updating so there has to be something new that a person can get into. there is going to be an update that will change aezeroth. everything is going to change in there. look around for it, u can now use flying mounts, barrens are going to be volcano type of place.

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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_

An example of a game that uses an historic gameplay setting, but not a totaly accurate storyline is Assassin's Creed. I was thinking of something amoung those lines whn i wrote this topic.
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penguindust

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Edited By penguindust
@StaticFalconar said:

" I believe there was a pirate MMORPG before "

Pirates of the Burning Sea 
Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean
Voyage Century Online 
Sea Odyssey
Tales of Pirates
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StaticFalconar

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Edited By StaticFalconar

I believe there was a pirate MMORPG before

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Inquisitor

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Edited By Inquisitor

Two things: 
 
1. WOW is losing its grip because its old, not because its fantasy. 
 
2. Personally i find i cant get tired of fantastic settings, but rather easily of MMO's.
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mad4it89

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Edited By mad4it89
@natetodamax said:
" Stabbing people with enchanted swords while casting fireballs and dancing in the middle of a battle doesn't get old. "
This is so true
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Edited By Wally

Also, everyone seems to tie MMO's to RPG's. 
 
I'd like to see an MMORTS ( Shattered Galaxy ) or an MMOFPS.

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happyfatman

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Edited By happyfatman

I like fantasy worlds, but I do think the MMO market has too many games that take place in the typical world of "fantasy."  WOW, LOTR Online, Guild Wars, Age of Conan, and so on.  When I found out about City of Heroes, it was like going from black & white to color, almost literally.  Everything is so brown in those "fantasy" MMOs but in the superhero MMOs everything is so bright and colorful and it's just so much less depressing.  I don't know about "historically accurate" MMOs though.  I guess it could work.  Maybe alternate history. 

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Log

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Edited By Log

Honestly Id be extremely impressed if someone could pull off making a good MMO that didnt exist in a Fantasy/SciFi world. The problem with not fitting into one of those categories is that you run out of viable and/or logical options for quests and battles. If youre just making things up you can make stuff up forever, but if youre restricted to real life scenarios you eventually have to either move into fantasy or end the game.

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Grimlesh

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Edited By Grimlesh
@_Nuno_ said:
Again I remind you kid, I am talking about the setting, not the gameplay, which does not have to be ALL historicly accurate.   
 
And by the way, the main reason why there aren't more Historicly based MMO's I believe, is because the first big MMO was Everquest, which wasn't historicly accurate and after that it was WOW. This led Big companies to try and copy these games to get a piece of the pie, and the only ones who actually take a shot at producing historicly based MMO's are small budget developers. Besides, the fact that there isn't a good one out there doesn't mean it can't be done. "


So you want a game thats in reality but doesn't follow reality?  Hm. 
  
Though they were not historic games, Nuno, there have been plenty of MMOs that are not fantasy, orc and elves games.  Like Auto Assault, Anarachy Online, and, regrettably, Planetside.  All of these games, for most players, last a month or two because the settings dont lend themselves to deep gameplay, although most of these games have a very small and fervent group of core fans.
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jim_dandy

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Edited By jim_dandy

No Caption Provided

                                                                             RICH GALLUP SAYS FANTASY MMO'S ARE THE SHIT.

 
 
 
 
...but yeah, I kinda want a post-apocalyptic MMO. Or one with Warhammer 40k.
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FalconCritical

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Edited By FalconCritical

The thing is, many companies have tried to expand the MMO genre - games like City of Heroes were popular and well populated till WoW hit and swept up everyone.  Other attempts like the pirate MMOs and Tabula Rasa have tried to bring something different, but have fallen by the wayside.  The most successful MMOs have always had a fantasy setting.  Is this because they have a fantasy setting? Perhaps, some things like the typical tank and healer roles are hard to pull off in a non-fantasy style without seeming contrived.  Bioware may have a chance at pulling some MMO buffs away from WoW but I think its different enough that those players will probably keep their WoW accounts active and try SW:TOR, but ultimately either their WoW friends or some gameplay facet they dun like will draw them away again.
 
I could be wrong, but that's happened to many other MMOs.  Fantasy fits the genre and it sells.

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Jayzilla

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Edited By Jayzilla

I am just sick of the same, tired class structure. I don't think it's the setting unless it's really poorly done. it's like FPS's, when they put something innovative in it, it's still fun and those are always in the same type of setting as well.

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SoothsayerGB

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Edited By SoothsayerGB

I think you make several good points.  But if we are what we eat, I may be you tomorrow.

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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_

LOL poor Rich. He will have a job at giantbomb after that game 38 Studios's making comes tumbling down.

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Gregomasta

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Edited By Gregomasta

For Rich Gallup's sake, I'll say no, we're not getting sick of fantasy mmo's

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torus

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Edited By torus

I completely agree with the OP's point. The typical 'fantasy' setting is getting _really_ old. It's one giant cliche that's been stretched far beyond what it should have been. We need some originality in game settings/writing. Enough with the orcs, wizards, trolls, and elves already.

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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_
@breaking3po: First of all, I never said you would be fighting each and everyone of these things, I just gave you examples of possible enemies. 
Secondly, no one in real life is anyone thing for its entire duration. So you could work your way up from one thing to another. It's just a dumbass idea to think you are born a politician, like you assume kid.
And lastly, all of this is way off point. All this thread was about was the setting (I just added that the typical gameplay is getting old fast), and since you have offered no decent arguments as to why an MMO can't have an historical setting, I'll just assume you have none.
 
Again I remind you kid, I am talking about the setting, not the gameplay, which does not have to be ALL historicly accurate.
 
And by the way, the main reason why there aren't more Historicly based MMO's I believe, is because the first big MMO was Everquest, which wasn't historicly accurate and after that it was WOW. This led Big companies to try and copy these games to get a piece of the pie, and the only ones who actually take a shot at producing historicly based MMO's are small budget developers. Besides, the fact that there isn't a good one out there doesn't mean it can't be done.
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breaking3po

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Edited By breaking3po

Huh? Who is fighting every single one of those guys? This is historical right? 
 
You've baffled me with that answer kid. You wanted to know why? Or did you just need an outlet to describe your awesome MMO where u can be a lvl 60 politician and your bro can be a slave dealer....  
 
*?????* 
 
Try playing more than just fantasy MMOs before wondering why there isn't more.
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Edited By Hats
@addictedtopinescent said:
" Ive said this many times before But, a warhammer 40,000 MMO would be badass "
they are making one well they were but i doubt it will do the IP justice
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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_
@TheMustacheHero: Believe me there is more than enough customizable loot to draw from historicly speaking. Besides that stuff should be secondary in a game, your ability to play it well should count for more than the armor your wearing.
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_Nuno_

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Edited By _Nuno_
@breaking3po: There are more than enought enemies to fight. Barbarians, thugs, enemy soldiers, spies, diplomats to assassinate, faction leaders, merchants, gladiators, slaves, farmers, lions in the arena,  and a myriad of other ppl... That's just narrowminded of you to think there is a lack of diversity when it comes to killing people. If you need the thing you kill to get bigger by the level... I don't know what to say to that.
 
More and more games are ditching the class based system, take Modern Warfare for example. But if you want classes, you could be a soldier, a bandit, a diplomat/politician, a spy, a merchant, a gladiator, a slave dealer... and I'm not even that creative. And if you look at Champions Online, a game with no classes, you can see how you can customize your caracter's look without resorting to any of that stuff (probably the game with most customizing options).
 
And again, the setting can evolve. Leaders can age and die, factions could be persecuted or benefit from it, cities can be destroyed much like reality. Besides, you say WOW has evolved... has it? They added a bit more history, which you had nothing to do with and little influence over. I would much prefer to have a saying in the evolution of things like in KOTOR.
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breaking3po

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Edited By breaking3po

 You can't be too realistic in an MMO. You'd have one type of PC fighting one type of PC or NPC. Think it through:  
 
How many enemies historically does the average country face in one generation?
 
Do you fight historical soldier X at level 1? 
So you fight tougher historical soldier X at lvl 60 as well? 
 
How many classes  or skill sets does the American civil war armies have at one time? Roman Empire? Japan? WWI? Basically, how do you differentiate one player from the next? You just don't have enough for a successful MMO. 
   
More: 

It's boring fighting the exact same thing for months or years.   No diveristy means people have no way to show off. "Hey WWII guy, where'd you get that beard?"  
 
What you can have is a successful time period piece with RPG elements, but since you're facing the same enemy over and over, it has to default to another game type (COD4 = FPS, Total War series = Strategy,), and it certainly has to end unless you intend to change things over time.  
 
WoW is successful because it has changed over time. Historical pieces have to stick somewhere or else it's not historical at all. Everything a historical MMO couldn't be, WoW is.  That's why there are fantasy MMOs. Alot of it works.
 
Good enough?