@epicsteve: Yeh but Anita is part of the problem.

@endurancefun: I said it because it represented how I feel, I was relieved to be involved in an argument where the side doing the moralizing hand-wringing and advocating restricting people's freedom was not the one I lean to for once on this forum. The cutting toenails jibe is more a response to an inane statement ("I would never cut off pieces of my body!") and while I recognize they are different (axiomatically), my position actually remains the same; one has no more moral authority to condemn someone for cutting off their penis than they do to condemn someone cutting off their fingernails, or trimming their beard. It's their body, and the government and the rest of the populace have no business being involved. In some cultures, trimming your beard is seen as a moral issue, and I would not tolerate it in any free society. Despite what I said earlier, I actually have no problem with adults being circumcised, but I do have a problem with infants and children being subjected to cosmetic surgery they can't consent to.

Simply put, I think we are at an impasse if you feel sex is the most defining aspect of a human being. I think the intellectual nuances our highly evolved brains allow us to grasp, what a person thinks, what a person knows, how a person feels, this is immeasurably more defining of their humanity than merely what dangly bits they have. This is the entire reason I'm so fundamentalist as regards equality; I want no person measured by anything beyond what they say, do, think. What someone was born as is merely a result of the genetic lottery, but it's not who they are.

Do you know why, ethically and morally, having sex with dogs is considered wrong? Because a dog is not a human, cannot give consent, making any sexual encounters with that dog into rape, making any sexual encounter with that dog into animal cruelty which we hold as immoral (my stance on animal rights is that they should not be made to suffer, but I don't hold their lives as sacred. I guess that makes me a human supremacist). It's not merely because "ewwww" or because "it's a sin". If dogs were sentient beings who could go "no, I totally want to have sex with this guy, back off society" then I suppose... I would have to deal with it. Much like if the Star Trek/Mass Effect dream ever comes true and we meet aliens who totally want to hook up, WHAT SIDE WILL YOU BE ON?! I'll be on the side getting action from blue ladies.

Ultimately, the thing that's changed me from the typical liberal guy a couple years back into who I am now is the realization that merely because I don't want something does not mean that other people should not be allowed from having it. I never wanted a gun, so I inhaled all the gun control statistics and ignored any that contradicted it, and said people didn't deserve to have guns. Now I realize that whether I feel this way or that, people's freedom needs to come first, provided it doesn't infringe on anyone else's. Now I believe the citizenry of a free nation should have access to any weaponry the police can legally use on them (and the rest is for the military to use on those gerderm furenners). Now I'd say I'm closer to... like a social libertarian, in that I want as much freedom for everyone as possible, but I still believe in taxation and social programs and health care and so on.

@brodehouse: It just felt an odd thing to say in the middle of a discussion, a self-justification. I'm no psychiatrist, but that would suggest to me you don't truly believe what you're saying and some of the ridiculous aspects of your argument, such as cutting your toenails or taking cold medicine is the same as hormonal changes.

I totally disagree that a sex change is not the most fundamental change you can make, it is one of the most defining aspects of a human being from birth to death. If you break down a sex change into every little thing and compare them all to similarly little things, you may fool someone into believing this is not a big deal, but altogether it certainly is one. I'm not going to argue about being gay as it does not involve surgery or medication to achieve happiness. It may well do, as I've said previously a lot of gay people have mental problems, but it is not a requirement to be gay. Insert a cliché line here about how I have gay friends.

What a pointless argument about society. Society looks down on people who have sex with dogs, clearly we need to remove these social stigmas so that these proud beastophiles can walk around with their significant other! Though that is extreme, most weird fetishes or hobbies are accepted today, even being a transsexual is unlikely to affect you beyond the obvious repercussions of being someone who chose to change their gender because they have a self-identification problem in their brain.

I must respect your opinion because you've shown time and time again, as in that final paragraph, that you think about what you post. Faith restored.

@ransnack: Gender expression has nothing to do with biological sex, it has to do with gender. Dressing in a masculine way, boots, slacks, blazer _has nothing to do with my biological sex_. I think you have gender expression confused with secondary sex characteristics. A feminine haircut is gender expression, breasts are sex characteristics. How you grow body hair is biological and determined by chemicals, how you choose to groom it is part of your gender expression (which under current social mores says femininity means you're completely bald except for the top of your head).

There is also a difference between gender identity and gender expression, but this I admit I am less well read on and hopefully someone else is informed.

After feminists and white knights called out Tomb Raider as sexist I gave up on the whole discussion. Lara Croft in the latest Tomb Raider game is the epitome of a strong, female lead character. She kicked ass, she wasn't overly sexualised and yet still, somehow, they found something to complain about. "She sounds like she's having sex when she gets hurt. And the men are mean to her. It's all violence porn." I don't know how you have sex, granted, but I can normally tell the difference.

In essence: I'm done with listening to feminists talking about games. Nothing can be done to appease them, so why bother with listening to them?

That can still govery,verywrong.

So... I can't have a stereotypical or racist view on anything? I mean... If I can't call a fat chick "fat" then whats the point of living? This stuff seems a little blown out... but I do see the point of not going into a crowd of people and saying that kinda of stuff. Its easy, do what I do... talk bad to people behind their backs.

@endurancefun: a denial? It's an attempt to represent myself, and the motivation behind what I say. I realize that since we only discuss one topic on this forum, it can pretty easy for others to misunderstand me, and the entire purpose of communication is to be understood. Does this satisy your interest?

Astor a sex change being the 'biggest most fundamental change you could ever make', I disagree. The only part I consider an 'extreme' part of reassignment is hormone therapy, as it affects brain chemistry, and our brains are who we are. But that is no more extreme than prescription drugs or recreational drugs. Your brain is what makes you who you are, not your dangly bits. And if you're thinking of ploughing that field, banning hormone therapy requires that we also ban prescription painkillers for the same reason. That seems unrealistic and not in service of the interests of the people.

Perhaps it was merely a slip of the tongue, but being gay is not reversible. You're either gay, or you're something else. Someone may have a fluid orientation but that doesn't mean they're 'turning' one way or the other.

Lastly, the part about 'socially damaging'. The only reason a sex change is socially damaging is because a certain group of people has decided to make it as socially damaging as they can. And then they look at their actions as proof that it's 'socially damaging'; it's a case study for meme theory. With this exact same argument, X is bad because it's socially damaging (and so we must restrict it), you could fill X with anything; interracial marriage, evangelical Christianty, feminism or anti-feminism, or mouthing off against the British government. That others in society may act abusively if you do X is no way a valid criticism of X, it's merely a slavish dogmatic clinging to status quo, regardless whether it is just or unjust.

As for euthanasia I've never argued the issue out in order to figure out the most just and free solution to it. Because that's what I do, I don't just pick a side because 'grrr I hate dem libs/theists', I approach issues like a judge would, and look for an egalitarian, universalist doctrine that remains just in both common and edge cases, that does not violate the Constitution and that upholds the highest ideals of freedom, justice and liberty. So I don't want to go through it completely or change the topic, but I suppose I would support assisted suicide with both the proviso that they're found to have legal consent and maybe make them complete a semi-obstructive form or have a mandatory waiting period, since its been proven that suicide is often very spur-of-the-moment and people often reconsider with time. ... Then again, as I'm saying this I'm pretty sure doing anything obstructive in this manner would be unconstitutional. So I'd have to think of a modified solution that best serves everyone. If that sounds difficult and rigorous then welcome to the vagaries of free society.

Gender expression is directly dictated by the biological sex, hence gender = sex, especially in the countries where poisonous ideologies didn't take hold and there are no linguistic distinctions between the two.

Then for the love of god stop being tolerant to the people who tackle their mental/neurological illness with mutilation, they have every "right" to as long as it isn't taxpayer money but it does not cure or solve the problem.

Hence where my opinion came from.

what happened to our industry? feminism.

First of all have you have thought about that video games are not sexist or misogynistic but rather have bad writing in general? Most older video games did not care about that stuff not because these developer are sexist but rather serve a market and needed some easy to understandable plot that is carrying the gameplay. For example take a look at games with great writing like the Walking Dead or especially the Last of us or Uncharted as well. There you can actually see what good writing can do. Older video games are more like porn. The characters and story do not matter and they are concentrating more on the sex or in this case the gameplay. That is was sold games back then. Not some symbolic Male Power fantasy or other bullshit. Video games do not need to be changed they need additions and alternatives and how will you get it? By buying great games with great writing like the Last of Us. You need to show that there is a market for that and that and that these games have a place beside a game like COD for example.

As for Feminists and the negative stand in this community. It is not because they oppose the existing structures of patriarchy but rather that we get bombarded with stupid claims. Big boobs are not sexist, less clothed women are not sexist. We all want change with better writing and better developed characters but you will not archive it by attack every developer and every female character. With that you rather kill the discussion and the chance for more variety in characters. A white male is the safest choice because that will not get any backlash. If you use a women or a black main character for example you have to be extremely careful because the smallest mistake here will result in a backlash. If a white male character is presented badly its just corny, cheesy and stupid, if they make a mistake with a female or black character these groups will scream sexist and racist and publishers do not want to take this risk so they are playing it mostly safe.

@messatic7: You see, the problem is not actually with anyone else, but with you. When you create an argument that involves as a serious point that the opposition is "indefensible," you have a legitimate victim complex. This kind of thinking is both what capitulates game companies to make actual, stupid changes to their games out of fear of reprisal by insane people who think like that and is what most angers the majority of gamers who feel this is all pretty idiotic. There's no discussion if it's seriously just "feminists must completely change these vague "misogynistic" qualities in the industry, then it'll MAGICALLY be way better!" The world doesn't work that way.

Feminism attracts a negative connotation because it fundamentally opposes the existing structures of patriarchy that dominate mass media offerings. Videogames are some of the worst when it comes to this, perhaps a consequence of a billion-dollar, young, hetero-male market. I feel that any discussion is good discussion on these matters and progresses the medium further, but Twitter is an easy way for something dumb and small to suddenly become dumb and large (in terms of attention). Taking the discussion to more serious places is a good idea, except the problem is that misogyny and sexism in games (and all other media) is an indefensible position. "Stop being so sensitive!" and "Feminists should just deal with it!" are proxy arguments that call for a return to a sexist status quo. Unsurprisingly, those who support these claims are often the hetero-males that are the main demographic for games. I enjoy videogames, but in order for them to become something more than just "fun", these issues must be addressed. Simply put, game developers, media and most importantly, gamers themselves must recognize that games are not an insular platform and must acknowledge the inequalities and discrimination facing people other than hetero-males in the sphere of videogames. Already I feel like the increasing prominence of indie games and other games outside of the AAA market is helping the gaming community come to terms with alternate and equal positions in terms of gender and sexuality, but there is still a long way to go.

@starvinggamer said:

@truthtellah said:

@hunter5024 said:

@starvinggamer: Is she really a male or something?

That is Kayo Satoh, or "KayoPolice" in the FGC, who revealed a while back that she was born as a male.

This is Yoshinori Ono, the eccentric producer of Street Fighter IV, with her:

Loading Video...

ha. Yeah, I watched that live and had a feeling something might happen afterward. Was a fun tournament though.

That is Kayo Satoh, or "KayoPolice" in the FGC, who revealed a while back that she was born as a male.

This is Yoshinori Ono, the eccentric producer of Street Fighter IV, with her:

@starvinggamer: Is she really a male or something?

Well, this thread has... gone places.

I wish I wasn't sexist.

This is all I have to add to this thread. Oh Giantbomb how crazy thou art.

I'm stopping my reading here. All I wanted was some calm discourse, and by golly I found it. I'd like to add that both sides are showing their worst, and I'm not against anyone per se...but I can't get behind anyone at this point, knowing all the details. I just hope everything blows over in a week, then we can get back to respecting each other like we were before. Or at least, I think that's how it was before. It's been a while.

Too late!!

take me with you when you leave

please

saveyourself now!

while... you still... can

I should not have come in this thread.

Or commented.

Fuck.

@brodehouse: Cutting off dead worthless keratin and permanently scaring living flesh or removing living body parts are far from the same thing and you know this.

Knowing they exist isn't my problem knowing they would willing try and fool me into thinking they really are female or male on the other hand that's different. As of every other group of people I'd much rather transexuals just leave me the fuck alone and find a way to be honest with themselves and everyone else. by my watch what I mean is simple if I am any way shape or form accountable for your actions then your on my watch. Beyond that harm yourself in any way you want doesn't affect me in the least.

I can tell you right now I'm against Transhumanism the term you are looking for when talking about Deus Ex By the way I was very capable of punching through walls when I was a kid and sure am now walls are not as strong as you may think is long you don't hit the stud.

@endurancefun: yo, dude, if there were a way to fix transsexuals without mutilating their genitals I'd think I would know about it.

Oh my bad then I actually never played Nier but I thought I heard something like that.

As for the rest. No I do not assume that I just wanted to say that these people who try to argue with these kind of sentences are sadly the vocal majority at least on the internet. I just think that it is ok for people not to like anything. And if people are against a gay marriage for example they should not called homophobic just because they think it is not a good idea. If they actually treat gay people like a disease they certainly deserve backlash but they should not get backlash because they think it is not right for whatever reason. You do not need their approval and the government will not hear these people as well. Same for Transgender. If someone does not like trans people I think it is totally ok. Going with my Job argument again as an example. That is also a reason why I think we should forget about gender, or colors in these kind of discussion. We should just think of them as human beings or people.

And for your market comment. Of course you would generally we are always interested in things that are similar to our self or live and experience. I am just saying that you can not expect people or in this case developers/publishers to make games about that because it would not sell enough since most people would not be interested in playing a transgender person for example. That is also the reason why we don't have many female main characters because many male gamers do not want to play as a woman and these developers would lose a large amount of money because of that.

I haven't played the game, but isn't Kaine a hermaphrodite? NOT the same thing.

Also, why do you automatically assume that being trans suddenly becomes our only identifier? Do you assume that I would automatically get along with every trans person I ever meet just because we are both transgendered? That we all hold the same interests and share personality traits? That makes as much as sense as saying "all men will get along with one another because they are men." Why wouldn't I be interested in things that aren't marketed specifically towards me? Should I reconsider my interest in the Playstation 4, Destiny and barbecued hamburgers because nowhere on any of the boxes or public advertisements does it say "made for all gender identities under the sun"?

@brodehouse: Is that denial? Who are you justifying to? No one's keeping count of your opinions. I've not been active in this discussion, but seriously take a step back and consider what you're saying. Cutting your elongated nails, and having a sex change. One is about the biggest, most fundamental change a person can take and it has huge consequences. I don't bite off the end of my dick everyday, which may surprise certain members of these forums. This should not be something that is considered "normal" as unlike being gay, mutilating yourself is in many ways irreversible and socially, financially damaging... I would like to hear about your opinions on euthanasia. That's where I'd draw comparisons here.

No it is a huge deal for almost everyone. How would you feel if someone did not tell you that he was a mass murderer once or in this case a men or a woman. And since you mention sex is very important in an relationship and that is why you should tell people from the beginning that you once were a men or a woman. This is not a small matter not for you or him/her. Again if it was not a small matter to you why would you not tell him/her about that?

As for the sex matter. I need a huge amount of trust and feelings until I sleep with the person because I think it is still a very special thing to do with the person you love.

@darji: It's a huge deal to you perhaps. I'm personally of the opinion that people care WAY too much about sexuality. I generally consider myself to be straight, but I can't say it matters to me whether they're XY or XX if I find them to be attractive.

I'm also not sure what kind of relationships you've been in, but I've never been in one where I've disclosed everything about my past (or even just the "important" stuff) before having sex for the first time. Being honest with someone doesn't necessarily mean disclosing every piece of information.

Isn't having women displaying a prominent role in video games (be it lead developer, protagonist, antagonist) for the sole/main reason of promoting equality just as bad as a lack of women in prominent roles?

How about that this is a huge deal? And the fact that these people do not want to talk about this freely with the person they love should be evidence enough. Personally I do not know how I would react if someone I love would tell me that but I know that I totally would end this relationship if this person was not honest with me from the beginning because a relationship should be founded on trust and honesty.

How far should a transgendered person allowed to go with you before they're legally obligated to disclose their past to you? Intercouse? Kissing? Hand Holding?

I suppose all people should just carry around a very thorough personal history of themselves at all times if they want to get laid, just in case there's something on there that someone else might personally find to be disagreeable?

Or is there some kind of medical condition you can catch from sexual intercourse with a transgender individual that I'm not unaware of?

So many questions!

I have absolutely no desires to place a moral value quotient on people's desire to modify their appearance. I might put a personal aesthetic value on a person's appearance, but to place a moral one upon them is tyrannical. That one thinks people look ugly or good due to X in no way makes X a moral question, and thus neither stance has any moral position.

Then your definition of mutilation is so broad as to be completely pointless. Also I wonder how you type with your monstrously long fingernails, since you're against removing pieces of one's body. As for "as long as it doesn't effect someone else" (which should be affect), I'm very interested in your definition of affect. Because from what it seems like, you are affected merely by being aware that they exist. I have no earthly clue as to how far you believe your "watch" extends to, and I would hate to ever find myself included within it.

I wonder for most of the people coming out on the Against side of this argument, what your opinion on cyber-organics would be? We get excited when Deus Ex shows science that grants humans the potential to punch through walls and have mirrorshades embedded in your skin and nanomachines, son... and then I wonder how many of these same people would be beating a drum in protest when science grants humans the potential to be a different sex.

(Also apologies from here on, I need to go exercise and begin my day though I enjoyed our discussion. Have a great day!)

(double secret side note, I'm glad I could actually argue on the side of the 'typically liberal' for once. I'm sure most people assume I'm conservative or some form because I'm anti-feminist and I place freedoms ahead of emotional comfort. I'm actually extremely progressive, but so progressive that I can't tolerate when other liberals or progressives advocate hypocrisy like inequality in favor of one social group or another, or restrictions on freedom of speech when something offends their sensibilities.)

Why not telling the truth. A relationship is based on trust and if you do not trust this person enough it is a failed relationship from the begin on. Again be a role model not a police officer. You can not bind everything by laws.

Their feelings are not bending biological reality. I'm sure if you asked any trans person (without being an ass about it), they would tell you whatever they were biologically born as, and in the case of post-ops, whichever they qualify as at the moment. Their feelings and natural tendencies however do bend gender expression, since this is entirely what you put into it. Biologically, I am male and I have testosterone and broader shoulders and the things you would associate with men, hence I am biologically male. Socially, I present as masculine, my identity and my expression both cleave to what our culture associates as masculine behaviors, hence I am of the masculine gender expression. If this were not true, if my identity and my expression were what we associate as feminine, I would axiomatically be of the feminine gender expression. I would continue to be biologically male until a time such would not be true, but I would be of the feminine gender. And personally, I find it far more functional to simply refer to men and women as what they present as rather than what I suspect their birth parts to be. Because if I met with an accident that removed my penis, but I continued to identify and present as masculine as I do now, I would find it incredibly strange to have people refer to me as a woman. If my presentation was unclear (again, we're bringing up passing), I would hope they would either ask or take a guess, if they're wrong, to simply say "oh" and move on. It requires neither social justice warrior hysterics, or willfully ignorant totalitarian effrontery.

I will not stop bringing up intersex and AIS, because they are incredibly instructive. Equality, egalitarianism is necessarily constructed on the concepts of universality. Universality means that if an intersex person (once again, hundreds of thousands of Americans, a population equal to major cities) receives assignment to a sex and presents as that gender, and is therefore referred to as that gender, then it logically follows that anyone who receives assignment and presents as the appropriate gender would receive the same treatment. Universality. Your stance is that if someone receives assignment and presents as a gender other than their birth because they were forced to, that's okay, but if someone receives assignment and presents as a gender other than their birth because they wanted to, that's wrong. Bullshit. This line of thinking says that having a mastectomy because you fear cancer is okay, but having a mastectomy because you don't want breasts is a moral outrage.

You actually do not have the right to charge someone as a sex offender because they failed to disclose information regarding their sexual history any more than you could have them charged as a sex offender for failing to disclose their political history. Even what is known as 'criminal transmission of HIV' is being swiftly repealed as it violates Constitutional protection and most of us don't want to live in a police state. When you enter into a sexual scenario of any kind, the only thing the government can interfere is to make sure consent is present. Apologies but the sexual market, so to speak, is caveat emptor; if you're terrified that everyone you have sex with might be lying about their physical history then for your own sake I would recommend leaving the market.

@brodehouse: Cutting off pieces of ones body and so on is mutilation by definition so yes they mutilate themselves or have someone else do it for a shit load of money. I personally class tattoos and piercing as the same and before you go there circumcision is also mutilation. But as I said before People can do with themselves as they please is long as it doesn't effect someone else. People can out right kill themselves for all I care just don't do it on my watch.

Removing a mole or a cyst isn't on par with what I was referencing, and I'm pretty sure you know that. Plastic surgery to drastically change the way you look, much like they do in South korea, is what I'm most against. It's even worse than a simple boob job, because you literally do not look like the same person. I can understand being gay or lesbian way easier than I can when it comes to transgendered folk. Most that I've met personally have had some pretty gruesome surgery, and even if it looks good for now, I wonder how it will hold up down the road. The male anatomy and physiology is just different to a female's, to try and change that results in some pretty heavy consequences.

@sergio: Yes, I've misapplied female/male and masculine/feminine in my previous post. Apologies.

@brodehouse: I'm not really sure which people are confusing sex for gender at this point.

The words female and male have to do with sex, which is differentiated by their reproductive functions, not gender. One can try to argue the point about sterility or anything that somehow contradicts this definition, but it's a little disingenuous, and is brought up for argument's sake. If someone pointed to a dog and asked you what sex it was, I think most people would be able to decide if it was male or female.

The words man and woman also inherently deal with sex, since they're defined as an adult human male and female, respectively. This is not to say that I or other people are unwilling to treat a transgender person as a man or a woman if they were biologically a woman or man, respectively. This is just the way those words are defined, we have other terms for males or females of other species as well.

The words masculine and feminine can deal with either sex or gender. So do manly, womanly, boyish, and girlish.

This is completely wrong and the exact reason why people have issue with transexuals and the like, this is complete bullshit, your feelings can not bend biological reality, if I say that I'm a dinosaur that does not make me a fucking dinosaur, by the same token if they say that they are female but have a male biological makeup then they are not, and never ever will be female.

All women do indeed have vaginas, if you don't have one you are very very very very likely to be a male. If you are born a healthy boy with a penis and later think that you want to be a girl and mutilate yourself then guess what, you are still a fucking male. And stop bringing up intersex and AIS, two very rare medical conditions which the majority of the tranny community does not even suffer from.

Last of all I do not want all trans people to be held up in the same company as sex offenders as I want the same law to apply to them to fend off any potential sexual offenses, as someone said earlier imagine if you date someone without them telling you they are a man, you have every right then to charge that person as a sex offender.

@darji: You appear to be under the assumption that I've said anything critical regarding Mike Krahulik's tweets. I have not. Research it if you care.

@ransnack: I'm not aware of your native language, but English axiomatically does differentiate between gender and sex, it is self-demonstrating. Sex and gender are different, that people are not aware that there is a difference does not mean that there is no difference, ignorance is not a substitute for knowledge. I choose to inform people who are not aware that there is a difference, rather than allow them to believe things that are not true.

Your 'random guy who says he's a blue creature called Sonic'. You may be surprised but people actually do have the ability to possess names, and I'm sure there already is someone named Sonic out there (though for what it's worth, I hope it's a reference to the burger chain). Whether or not they are blue is a matter of visible light, if it's about 460 nanometres, then it's what we refer to as blue. If they say they are blue but present as red, then that might be an issue. If they present as female, if the majority of their gender expression conforms to what we socially recognize as female, then they're what we refer to as female. They may be biologically male or not, but if they present and identify as female, axiomatically they are of the female gender. What adds to this is post-op trans people qualify under your biological imperatives as well, since you seem to have no problem with identifying biologically male people with AIS as female, due to possession of vaginas.

And once again, intersex people have no more of a 'medical condition' then I have the 'medical condition' of being biologically male. They were born intersex. They may receive medical procedures to assign a sex, but this means they have no more or less of a condition than anyone else who receives procedures to assign or reassign a sex.

That you want all trans people to be held in the same company as sex offenders requires absolutely no comment from me. I will just make sure it's repeated so that others can draw their own conclusions.

The concepts and arguments around passing in a gender sense are extremely interesting to me, as they align very similarly to the original 'passing'; that of a racial sense. It was at that moment when a society obsessed with racial purity had to unravel the vagaries of skin color and ethnicity, of whether it's blood and heritage, or eumelanin and pigment, or cultural background, or myriad other signifiers that affirm people to these social groups. It remains an interesting question today, my girlfriend is a copper skinned Italian and I'm a typically fair skinned Frank, yet we are 'white' in the social sense. If she were a more swarthy complexion, would she 'pass' as North African? Where would people from Asia Minor fit in the broad brushstrokes? And much like the gender-sex distinctions, this type of conversation typically is burnt to the ground because one side wants it their way with no discussion, the other side wants it their way with no discussion, and another group altogether wants the conversation frozen altogether because the chances that either side might have their feelings hurt, a demand for political correctness and banal ignorance.

Anyways, interested in that conversation. And as I said earlier, I wonder how many trans folk who effectively pass have been called by their gender by people who would refuse to do so if they did not pass.

@artemesia: I do not think it is necessarily fair to judge based on how far along someone is in terms of having physical alterations vs. not doing it at all. It takes it to a weird place of judging how good someone is at passing. So on an individual basis I can see people using it for their personal acceptability, but on a broader argument I don't think it can be relied on as a talking point. I'm fairly sure I would be a bit put-off regardless, but its one of those things that is so far afield from my everyday that it is difficult to really consider.

You misunderstand me, my statement was precisely that, that those viscous internet social justice warriors are enabling the "turpitude that sees a black criminal and assumes all blacks are criminals", because they are shoving their degenerate morally bankrupt ideology and hogwash down other people's throats. And my native language does not differentiate between gender and sex, they are the same with few exceptions, even the English word gender can mean "sex" if used in the way.

If some random guy makes a claim that he is not male or female but that he is a blue creature named Sonic, why should that be any different than some random fucking guy making up shit that he is really a girl ? He can mutilate his dick and eat hormones all he wants, he is still a man, and that is the majority of transexuals. Virtually all females do have vaginas.

Intersex people have a real medical condition and medicine should be used to aid them.

And yes I am against all mutilation at birth, it's child abuse.

Well as long as it's their money they can do what ever the hell they want, but the same law that applies to registered sex offenders that makes their information public should apply to them so that that they can't trick people into such relationships. There recently was a case I believe in Russia or that area where a husband found out that his wife was a man in the past and it sadly ended in murder. While that is obviously wrong, in my opinion it should be considered rape if such trickery happens.

@brodehouse: you mean like the people who always try to argue with "you are a privileged white male so you don't know about anything at all"? And also trans people are playing video games all the time and some of them like Nier even have trans people in them but you are still a minority and therefore you are not a targeted or profitable market in this regard. Same with society.

We do not need to consider every minority on this planet if we comment on something if we would do that we would not talk at all. And if someone offends you fine maybe he did it intentional and you have all the rights to hate these people or maybe he did not even think about some minority group who could be offended by anything he said and then keep it at that. But in this case these people were attacking him directly maybe even posted his comment on a trans gender forum or twitter or whatever just to start a stupid witch hunt.

All I am saying is respect other peoples opinions and you will get more respect as well. Start to attack everyone you do not agree with and you will lose a ton of respect. Just like the feminist group lost a lot of respect already in terms of video games and in this community.

@osaladin: I've had elective cosmetic surgery. Once to remove a mole and again to remove a sebaceous cyst. It isn't the devil, it's just surgery. If you're just referring to the urge to look 'perfect'... Vanity is not a new arrival to human history. We've used every tool in the book throughout time to look whichever way our culture sets as desirable. Germanic tribes used to dye their hair (red was the favorite) and slather it with rancid butter, as sort of an ancient-world hair gel, and set it into shapes you'd associate with a heavy metal or punk rock concert. Chinese people were painting their nails three thousand years before Julius Caesar. Modern cosmetic surgery shouldn't be seen any different as piercings, or tattoos. We associate plastic surgery with insecure bimbos, yes, but that's not a moral argument against it anymore than the association of tattoos with criminals.

@ransnack: You have failed to gather that gender and sex are two different concepts. You make an exception for those born intersex (intersex is as much a 'medical condition' as being born female, or white), whose bodies are assigned a sex in the exact same way a reassigned trans person's would be. That you tolerate one and not the other only reveals how little you actually would tolerate intersex people, that you would claim they've drugged and mutilated themselves by being assigned a gender at all. And while you're on this kick, you should probably be virulently anti-circumcision, an actual case of sexual mutilation performed solely to appease social mores.

'A natural defense against foreign forces' ... you mean people? Trans people are not foreign to video games, they've been here all along.

That you find it difficult tosee the humanity in entire social groups, in hundreds of thousands of other Americans, in millions of people around the world, because you don't like the actions of specific persons is absolutely morally reprehensible. This is the turpitude that sees a black criminal and assumes all blacks are criminals, a male rapist and assumes all men are rapists, or a Christian bigot and assumes all Christians are bigots. This is basic in-group out-group derogation fallacy. As for referring to other human beings as 'biological weapons aiming to destroy culture'... I take a deep, deep interest in anthropology and human history. And you don't understand the first thing about culture.

@artemesia: I don't support elective plastic surgery in any way, I think it's purely a by-product of how our society is right now, and how people react to it. I can personally say, if I was ever dating a transgender person that I believed to be a genetically born female, but she never tells me until a while into the relationship, I would break it off. I get your argument, about her thinking of herself as a female now, which is her right, but it just seems like some important information to tell your partner. Also call me what you will, but I wouldn't be able to shake the thought, that she was once a man. Please don't confuse this with me not coming to terms that she identifies as a she now, but when it comes to romance, I wouldn't be able to shake that, everyone has their own sexual preference.