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nintendoeats

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Why The Killer Can **** Right Off

EDIT: It has come to my attention that my definition of Ludonarrative was wrong. Ludonarrative is the relationship between events in a cutscene and events in the game. My points are still valid, but when I say Ludonarrative dissonance I am reffering to a disparity between a player's motivations and their actions.



(This article was a little more timely when I wrote it, but due to a change in circumstances I figured that I may as well throw it up here)

In my view, the term “video game” has become something of a misnomer. It certainly makes sense most of the time, but at this point video games are far more than sets of rules and goals. They are designed to make the player experience things, which do not always come down to the highs and lows of tactical decision making. That said, the sheer fact that one is able to acknowledge the broad potential of the video game medium does not make for great art. Just like any other form of media, the video game still requires a focus and purpose to be truly great, and that is why The Killer can fuck right off.

A brief description is necessary, though The Killer is free and only a few minutes long. I do recommend that you play it yourself, simply to make it more clear how utterly worthless it is. The Killer is a “notgame” in which you play as a man with a gun. That gun is pointed at a prisoner. The first few minutes are spent walking through various 8-bit environments by holding the space bar. After this trek, you are given a crosshair and told to shoot the prisoner. The game then does a rather clever transition (I give credit where credit is due) from a field of dead stick figures to the credits.

To recap, the entire interaction consists of holding the spacebar to walk and then choosing whether or not to shoot a prisoner. There is no context given for any of this, and no character development to speak of. It is merely a soldier, a prisoner and the overall theme of killing.

The problem that I have, the reason that The Killer can fuck right off, is that it completely fails to make a point. There is no reason to shoot the prisoner, so most people simply won’t and that will be that. The game does nothing to put you in the place of the soldier, to make you understand your character. There is extreme ludonarrative dissonance in the game, which essentially eliminates the biggest strength of interactive fiction.

But we aren’t done yet. Perhaps this ludonarrative dissonance is the whole point. By taking this moment out of context, the game proposes that any context would simply be a post-rationalisation. When you are presented with the choice to kill or not kill somebody, not killing them is the right choice. That is a valid theme for a work of art, but making a video game out of it is an absurd thing to do. The strength of video games is that they allow us to poke and prod at a system and experience it as the characters do. The Killer does NOT allow you do any of these things. It is a linear story that does nothing to make the player feel like they are experiencing it.

Imagine that The Killer was a short film. The characters never speak; all that exists between them is the power of the gun and a subtle emotional connection. This creates a world for your mind to explore during the process of the film, and it feels natural because the characters WILL behave accurately to themselves, whatever that happens to be. This is in stark contrast to a video game in which the soldier will behave accurately to the player, not themselves.

At this point one could be justified in saying that The Killer has value merely because THERE IS a message to it that can be interpreted. The problem is that I’m still not really sure what the game’s message is supposed to be. I didn’t come up with my explanation until thinking about The Killer for the express purpose of this article. There is no way to find a message in the game without facing the extreme intellectual flaws in its design.

Perhaps there is no message. Perhaps The Killer is just a thing to be experienced, and you take away from it whatever message you want. I suppose that it serves that purpose very well, but if we are satisfied with “a thing that you can experience, ” as either artists or consumers, then video games are never going to reach their true potential as an artistic medium. The Killer is ill-conceived and poorly designed. It isn’t my ambassador to the art world, it is not the thing that I would show to somebody to expose the strengths of games as a form of expression. In fact, as far as I’m concerned, The Killer can fuck right off.

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Slaker117

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Edited By Slaker117
@nintendoeats: The problem is that you are looking at it as a game. It really isn't, past the fact that it is interactive. It's all just an experimental delivery method for a message. Trying to analyze it using traditional game design theory is missing the point. You are allowed to not like it, but getting "offended" because it doesn't follow the rules seems like fundamentally not understanding what art aims to be.
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nintendoeats

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Edited By nintendoeats

As I said at the very beginning of OP, I see video games as moving far past the "game" part. There are, however, basic lessons that have been learned about how the make players feel a certain way, think a certain thing, or perform a certain action. The Killer doesn't apply those lessons and is worse off for it. Non-game games may be relatively new, but interactivity is not. If The Killer wants to ignore the things that make interactivity meaningful, then it shouldn't be a game.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@TheVeteran13: So can you give me some sense of what it is? I really would genuinely like to see some glimmer of what others do. That being how learning works and such.

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Edited By Video_Game_King

I'm still confused. Why are you talking to me as if I'm not on your side? Eh, might as well drop this comment: shitloads of young nostalgia is coming at me specifically because of this thread.

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SeriouslyNow

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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow: All I want is for you to say "the designer did X so that you would experience Y and that worked really well for many people because Z." A concise and discussable argument.

And all I say to that is that I've given you all the information you need to understand what the designer did. My information is exactly what you ask for : concise and discussable. I've even linked it.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@Video_Game_King: Hold up a second, I think that I get what is going on here.

Be clearer in your sarcasm! Damn you VGK... DAMN YOOOOOOOOOU!

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Video_Game_King

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Edited By Video_Game_King
@nintendoeats
 
I am being as clear as I can be without you ripping out my goddamn throat.
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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow: No, it isn't. I have significant training and natural ability in discerning arguments from confused bundles of statements, and your point yet eludes me.

I just want a simple, clear statement of facts and arguments. AS it stands I just can't make what you are saying fit into the standard "this therefore that" argument form.

@Video_Game_King: Sorry, I was hungry :) I'll make it up to you with a robot throat.

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Video_Game_King

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@nintendoeats
 
Oh, you already ripped out my throat? Then what the fuck would you do if....I'm not even going to mention it. Trust me when I say that everybody will be better off if I don't.
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SeriouslyNow

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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@nintendoeats: You haven't even responded to my linked information.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow: I don't see how a Nazi following orders is relevant when the game never really puts you into that context beyond (IIRC, I wrote this two weeks ago) telling you to walk. You just have to sort of assume that you are pushing the guy because you are under orders. Which, again, is my point.

Hold up, maybe starting to get an inkling of something here. Perhaps the game's point is that we assume that we have been given orders and will be punished even though this was not explicitly done. That makes sense...

Even though that only comes across if you think about it in this crazy metagamey long drawn out intellectual way that 99.99999% of people never will...And of course it can't impact any part of the actual experience of playing the game, which reduces the impact pretty substantially.

But that could at least be something that I could get behind.

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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow:

I have not, nor will I ever buy the post-modern approach to art, because it pretty much shuts down all discussions. Like this one.

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@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?
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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow:

I have not, nor will I ever buy the post-modern approach to art, because it pretty much shuts down all discussions. Like this one.

No, you're right, it's much better to push your own agenda onto something so you can say it's bad at delivering the message.

EDIT : There is nothing post modern in art being perception. Art has always been perception.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

"Beauty is truth and truth, beauty."

Both statements come from the 19th Century which predates the 'modern' era and therefore they predate Post Modernism.

People really need to stop using phrases like Post Modern when they don't apply.

As a friend who mine who is an artist used to say "You lack the teeth to digest this meal".

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@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

I read this whole thread. This is the question I'm asking myself right now.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow: I merely demand that when I analyze something that there be something to find. It's all very well to like something as an amorphous blob that you do with as you will intellectually, but:

If we are satisfied with “a thing that you can experience, ” as either artists or consumers, then video games are never going to reach their true potential as an artistic medium.

In the end, by saying that art doesn't need to stand up to analysis you take away the true power that it could have had.

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@GreggD said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

I read this whole thread. This is the question I'm asking myself right now.

An experience, a piece of art? It's made for you to feel something. That's it.
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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow: "Beauty is Truth" sums up my position rather well. Truth stand up to arguments and reason, and that I find to be truly beautiful.

The fact that post-modern ideas existed before post-modernism as a movement makes them no less post-modern.

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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

It is a message, wrapped in an experience related via a simple mechanic. It's art. It's not a game. I'm sorry King, did your homeschooling fail you? Maybe you family shouldn't have force fed you on a diet of misinformation and moon cheese.

@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow: I merely demand that when I analyze something that there be something to find. It's all very well to like something as an amorphous blob that you do with as you will intellectually, but:

If we are satisfied with “a thing that you can experience, ” as either artists or consumers, then video games are never going to reach their true potential as an artistic medium.

In the end, by saying that art doesn't need to stand up to analysis you take away the true power that it could have had.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that you don't stand up to the task of analysing this work of art.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@Napalm said:

@GreggD said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

I read this whole thread. This is the question I'm asking myself right now.

An experience, a piece of art? It's made for you to feel something. That's it.

On this subject we agree.

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Edited By napalm
@nintendoeats said:

@Napalm said:

@GreggD said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

I read this whole thread. This is the question I'm asking myself right now.

An experience, a piece of art? It's made for you to feel something. That's it.

On this subject we agree.

The only reason 'notgame' is used is to tell that it doesn't fall into the clearly defined lines of what we consider a videogame in this day and age.
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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow: "Beauty is Truth" sums up my position rather well. Truth stand up to arguments and reason, and that I find to be truly beautiful.

The fact that post-modern ideas existed before post-modernism as a movement makes them no less post-modern.

You see everything as a game you can win. Not every situation is a nail and you're not always a hammer. They are not post modern and you're not right. It's OK to lose sometimes, we learn from losing.

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Edited By Video_Game_King
@SeriouslyNow said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

It is a message, wrapped in an experience related via a simple mechanic. It's art. It's not a game. I'm sorry King, did your homeschooling fail you? Maybe you family shouldn't have force fed you on a diet of misinformation and moon cheese.

What's that? What did you just say? DO YOU DARE INSULT ME AND THE GLORIOUS LUNAR NATIONS I COMMAND!? I WAS EDUCATED BY THE GREATEST MINDS THAT THE MOON COULD OFFER MY YOUNG MIND! I LEARNED ALL INFORMATION THAT THERE IS TO LEARN, AND THIS CROWN THAT RESTS UPON MY HEAD IS PROOF OF SUCH FAR-REACHING WISDOM! THE LESSONS I LEARNED OF VIDEO GAMES WOULD SHATTER YOUR INFINITESIMALLY INFERIOR HUMAN BRAIN! JUST BE GLAD THAT I AM A MERCIFUL KING WHO SHELTERS YOU FROM SUCH A GLORIOUS FATE YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE! * calms down* That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it. Again, it could have been done far more efficiently.
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@Video_Game_King said:
That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it.
In your opinion.
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Edited By SeriouslyNow

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

It is a message, wrapped in an experience related via a simple mechanic. It's art. It's not a game. I'm sorry King, did your homeschooling fail you? Maybe you family shouldn't have force fed you on a diet of misinformation and moon cheese.

What's that? What did you just say? DO YOU DARE INSULT ME AND THE GLORIOUS LUNAR NATIONS I COMMAND!? I WAS EDUCATED BY THE GREATEST MINDS THAT THE MOON COULD OFFER MY YOUNG MIND! I LEARNED ALL INFORMATION THAT THERE IS TO LEARN, AND THIS CROWN THAT RESTS UPON MY HEAD IS PROOF OF SUCH FAR-REACHING WISDOM! THE LESSONS I LEARNED OF VIDEO GAMES WOULD SHATTER YOUR INFINITESIMALLY INFERIOR HUMAN BRAIN! JUST BE GLAD THAT I AM A MERCIFUL KING WHO SHELTERS YOU FROM SUCH A GLORIOUS FATE YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE! * calms down* That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it. Again, it could have been done far more efficiently.

The message is clear and succinct. If 4 minutes is too long to convey a message relating to mass genocide then I fear for your patience and attention span.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow: I see everything as a mask hiding a truth. I suppose that the analysis is a game, but only in a loose sense. You cannot simultaneously argue that I am wrong for seeing thins that way and argue that we can see things however we like.

If I am wrong prove me wrong with an argument. Scientific method and all that.

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@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow: I see everything as a mask hiding a truth. I suppose that the analysis is a game, but only in a loose sense. You cannot simultaneously argue that I am wrong for seeing thins that way and argue that we can see things however we like.

If I am wrong prove me wrong with an argument. Scientific method and all that.

I didn't argue anything at all. I gave you information which you ignored and then twisted into your own convenience. Art is perception, it's true, but perception is a tool like any other and yours is blunt and the wrong fit for this work of art.

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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@nintendoeats: However you take it, take it, art is perception and the developer clearly calls The Killer a 'notgame'.

Then what the hell is it?

It is a message, wrapped in an experience related via a simple mechanic. It's art. It's not a game. I'm sorry King, did your homeschooling fail you? Maybe you family shouldn't have force fed you on a diet of misinformation and moon cheese.

What's that? What did you just say? DO YOU DARE INSULT ME AND THE GLORIOUS LUNAR NATIONS I COMMAND!? I WAS EDUCATED BY THE GREATEST MINDS THAT THE MOON COULD OFFER MY YOUNG MIND! I LEARNED ALL INFORMATION THAT THERE IS TO LEARN, AND THIS CROWN THAT RESTS UPON MY HEAD IS PROOF OF SUCH FAR-REACHING WISDOM! THE LESSONS I LEARNED OF VIDEO GAMES WOULD SHATTER YOUR INFINITESIMALLY INFERIOR HUMAN BRAIN! JUST BE GLAD THAT I AM A MERCIFUL KING WHO SHELTERS YOU FROM SUCH A GLORIOUS FATE YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE! * calms down* That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it. Again, it could have been done far more efficiently.

The message is clear and succinct. If 4 minutes is too long to convey a message relating to mass genocide then I fear for your patience and attention span.

If it was clear and succinct, we wouldn't be having this argument.

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@SeriouslyNow
 
You don't seem to get it. There's not a lot I can absorb by holding the damn space bar for a few minutes and then being given the context after it would have been useful. Who the crap said anything about length?
 
@Napalm said:
@Video_Game_King said:
That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it.
In your opinion.
Cheap-ass response. How exactly does that fix the problems the game has? Also, I forgot to say it before, but your "an experience, piece of art" response is pretentious as shit.
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Edited By nintendoeats

@SeriouslyNow:I cannot even begin to describe the volume of, and rage contained within, the scream that I let out when I read that sentence.

I don't want information from you, I want you to make an argument. Tell me how your information is relevant. Use a variation on "this therefore that" form.

If I don't have the tools to analyze this work, then give me the tools.

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Edited By napalm
@Video_Game_King said:

@Napalm said:

@Video_Game_King said:
That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it.
In your opinion.
Cheap-ass response. How exactly does that fix the problems the game has? Also, I forgot to say it before, but your "an experience, piece of art" response is pretentious as shit.
 It's true, though. This is like trying to define what 'art' is. Art is meant to make you feel something. This is what this does. The efficacy varies, obviously, but because you may not like it doesn't mean that it isn't art. And that's all that art is, an expression, or a story, or a theme to be interpreted. 
 
Or you can keep running this whole, "art is pretentious and your response is pretentious" schtick and I might have to retro-actively break down what 'color' means.
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@Napalm
 
But you're kind of using it as a means of writing off all the flaws in it. That's not how art works; art is usually able to communicate its message well enough and without some outside justification. Does St. John the Baptist need this type of defense? What of Fragile Dreams: Farewell Ruins of the Moon? This may come off as incredibly crass, but if a piece of art needs this damn much defending to communicate its message and connect with the experiencer (the English language is a limited one) on an emotional level, then it's probably not worth defending as a piece of art.
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Edited By napalm
@Video_Game_King: I don't agree with that at all. I'm trying to think back to a specific piece I saw that was done early last century. The piece had a crass drawing of a woman that made up of a very violent and varying paint strokes. The piece ultimately was about how the painter hated the woman he was living with, and he was expressing how he felt about her. That piece could have been taken several different ways, but upon revealing that information, it became clear the 'true' meaning of the art piece. It didn't make it any less of a piece of art, it just gained all new meaning. The other interpretations weren't incorrect. Any interpretation is correct. This is exactly what art is and what's supposed to be. 
 
Unfortunately, a 'notgame' is harder to define because it's interactive and bit more of a one way street, so interpretations are naturally narrower, but the rules still apply for these types of things.
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Edited By Video_Game_King
@Napalm
 
Not a good example, since according to it, messages were still conveyed rather clearly. Granted, they were the wrong messages, but they were being communicated rather well nonetheless. Not with this....whatever the crap it is (don't you dare say something so generic as "experience"). It has a message, but it's not entirely clear until it's too late, and it only manages to use the interactive nature to outline why the player isn't necessary in any fashion. Again, it could have been done better.
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@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow:I cannot even begin to describe the volume of, and rage contained within, the scream that I let out when I read that sentence.

I don't want information from you, I want you to make an argument. Tell me how your information is relevant. Use a variation on "this therefore that" form.

If I don't have the tools to analyze this work, then give me the tools.

I gave you the information and I said the tool is maturity of perception of the human condition borne from experience. Stop telling me how you want me to argue with you. There's no arguing with a person who already misunderstands a simple message because the method with which it was communicated fails to impress them. You see failings in the method of conveyance because you're looking at the method with more scrutiny than it demands.

As to what you demand of me, demand it of yourself. Your entitled rage doesn't impress me at all.

@Video_Game_King said:

@SeriouslyNow:

You don't seem to get it. There's not a lot I can absorb by holding the damn space bar for a few minutes and then being given the context after it would have been useful. Who the crap said anything about length?

@Napalm said:
@Video_Game_King said:
That said, it's a very poorly communicated message, the interaction very barely necessary to communicate it.
In your opinion.
Cheap-ass response. How exactly does that fix the problems the game has? Also, I forgot to say it before, but your "an experience, piece of art" response is pretentious as shit.

I could say that you don't get it, but that's redundant. You are given the context after holding the space bar.

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napalm

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@Video_Game_King: It's a perfect example. 
 
It's called The Killer. You push a button, and your character, with a gun, forces a prisoner to walk forward until you reach a 'destination'. 
 
It's obvious you are playing a bad person who is probably getting ready to do a bad thing. It's not overt because it's supposed to be evocative instead of outright stating, "hey, you're murderer." It's implied.
 
HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS. I swear to baby biscuits, I'm about to fucking lose it. 
 
I'M TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO ONLY KNOW GAMES WHERE HIGH SCORES ARE INVOLVED. 
 
I'm done with this shit. Somebody else can take my place. You guys are fucking driving me crazy with this infantile, caveman, "ME NO GET" attitude.
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nintendoeats

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@SeriouslyNow: I have a paragraph to write about every chunk of that post, and I would if I thought that there was any point to it. I'm done, and not just because I have to get to bed.

I'll leave it at this:

If something stops making sense because you scrutinized it too much, then it never made sense in the first place.

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SeriouslyNow

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@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow: I have a paragraph to write about every chunk of that post, and I would if I thought that there was any point to it. I'm done, and not just because I have to get to bed.

I'll leave it at this:

If something stops making sense because you scrutinized it too much, then it never made sense in the first place.

I never said, nor implied that it 'stops making sense', I said and implied that you look at it as a game when it's not a game. It's not a game. You focus on the game mechanic and scrutinise it from that position and that's why your scrutiny fails you. Or at least that's one reason why.

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nintendoeats

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@SeriouslyNow: I'm not looking at the game mechanics, I'm looking at the "interactivity mechanics." If you say that those aren't important, then WHY THE HELL IS THIS AN INTERACTIVE EXPERIENCE?

Good night.

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Video_Game_King

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@Napalm
 
How is it obvious that I'm supposed to be a bad guy? Absolutely nothing is said until it's too late. What's to stop me from thinking that I'm going to kill a prisoner who's committed heinous acts? The only context comes at the end, after the fact.
 
Ah, frustration and blunt ad-hominem. The cornerstones of sound, logical debate.
 
I feel that if I dived any further into your realm of logic, I'd find myself in the Mad Hatter's garden, celebrating a very unfine unbirthday. Shall you spread jam upon my watch, good sir?
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SeriouslyNow

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@nintendoeats said:

@SeriouslyNow: I'm not looking at the game mechanics, I'm looking at the "interactivity mechanics." If you say that those aren't important, then WHY THE HELL IS THIS AN INTERACTIVE EXPERIENCE?

Good night.

I didn't say the mechanics weren't important. They are. Infact they are tantamount to conveying the message. The problem isn't in the mechanics, the problem is in you asking them to be more in depth than they need to be.

Follow orders like a good soldier and don't question the chain of command. If you can't do that then you can't understand how genocide happens in the modern context in places like Kampuchea (Cambodia).

You're looking at the wrong aspects of the process for things that don't need to be there and complaining of their absence.

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@nintendoeats said:

Perhaps there is no message. Perhaps The Killer is just a thing to be experienced, and you take away from it whatever message you want. I suppose that it serves that purpose very well, but if we are satisfied with “a thing that you can experience, ” as either artists or consumers, then video games are never going to reach their true potential as an artistic medium.

Actually, I think for me its the other way around, boiling it down to  “a thing that you can experience” is exactly where more video games should go, as far to often it is not about the experience itself, but about collecting this, killing that and following the mission marker, essentially acting as a mindless drone doing what the game tells you, in a mechanical way, instead of actually just experiencing the virtual game world it presents you. Also the whole of element of "choice" is vastly overrated, as it is really not choice that matters, but interactivity, its perfectly fine for a game to have the interaction be limited to whatever vocabulary it needs to fit the character it portraits. As that it allows to create interesting situations where you actually play as the character itself, not yourself. Now I am not saying that the "The Killer" did exactly that or did it well, but its at least interesting to think about how such a concept could look in a more fully fleshed out form.

 It isn’t my ambassador to the art world, it is not the thing that I would show to somebody to expose the strengths of games as a form of expression.

What would you name? Or even better: What would you name that does also relate to the real world (so you can't just say Shadow of the Colossus or any other fantasy game)?
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I don't give a fuck what others say, you say everything with confidence and you make everything sound smart. Therefore I am just going to believe everything you say.

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@Grumbel
 
*reads response, points to that game*
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@Video_Game_King said:

@Grumbel:

*reads response, points to that game*

OH GOD I FINALLY HAVE HAD SOME QUESTIONS ANSWERED ABOUT WHERE THAT CREEPY CHICKEN HEAD CAME FROM.

The big flaw in that presentation is that what you have shown us is a cutscene, or a piece of CGI film. In essence, while that cutscene is incredibly impressive and I may pick up that game because of it, that cutscene does not show me mechanics that embrace the thematic content of the game. I'd reference the recently-released Bastion, LIMBO, Majora's Mask, BioShock, or Deadly Premonition as strong examples of games that DO have mechanics embracing thematic contents, and I'd go into more detail, but I feel like those who are in support of The Killer have reached a point where they will not hear an argument as to why The Killer is not an optimal presentation of its ideals. However, I'll also add that it has no business being optimal, as it's a game designed by one guy as part of a larger product, and he probably put as much work into it as Lil' Wayne put into Phone Home (very probably the worst song I've ever heard.)

The real debate here is does the game even accomplish its goals adequately; anyone who is arguing that it's accomplishing its goals strongly, you should take the same approach to some of the games I listed above and see that consumer-level games really can fulfill these ideas and it doesn't take being a not-game to be artful and have a message. Also, I feel like the message one can take from The Killer minus the Cambodian context given at the end is very similar to that of BioShock (aka Pavlov's Dog, give me a gun in a game and tell me to keep going and I will do so,) so I feel like it does have a very direct analogue within gaming history to begin with.

Anyways, until the defenders of The Killer in this thread seriously chill out and stop acting like anyone who doesn't like it "just doesn't get it," I will not be back. If people DESPERATELY want to hear my points for some odd reason, I guess I'll be back, but The Killer was a game I'd already forgotten about at this point.

(Also, YES, VideoGameKing, I have now played about six hours of Majora's Mask as an adult, and that game is really pretty cool!)

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Ragdrazi

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The game puts you into the shoes of a member of the Khmer Rouge trudging mindlessly to a place where you are supposed to kill a man who means nothing to you. And then it asks if you'd do it. And then it doesn't judge you for that answer. It merely uses it to provide you with an education about one of the worst parts of human history. 
 
What I don't get is the anger a lot of you are expressing about it. Didn't cost you anything. Didn't judge you. Didn't take anything from you but a little bit of time. What's the fucking problem.

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I think it is easiast most likely to kill someone if you have no history or attatchment to them. the scenario one participates in does that ok, I think.

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Fenrisulfr

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*NOTE: You are entering spoiler territory for the game Bastion. If you haven't finished it, or want to finish it without knowing very specific parts at the end of the game, then don't read this post. This is your only warning.*

You can cover a canvas with shit and call it art, but that doesn't change the fact that you just smeared shit on a canvas.

That is The Killer. It's psuedo-message(? I really don't know what to even call it), is as pretentious and ineffective as they come.

Why? Context.

Let's compare The Killer with a game that ended in a similar fashion: Bastion.

Let's start at roughly the same spots. The Kid runs up to Zulf, whose about to be killed by the Uran. Alone with him, you know have a choice: leave him to die, or carry him back to the Bastion. The killer starts with you pushing someone to a field, and once there, you can decide to either let them go or kill them. Same situation, but there's a major difference between the two: what happened before that point and those involved.

In Bastion, Zulf is an Uran you was living within Caelondia when the Calamity occurred. In the game, Zulf betrays you after finding out that the Calamity was caused by the Caelondians, meant for the Urans. In a fit of rage and feeling betrayed, he damaged the Bastion before leaving to rally what was left of the Urans. Shortly after, the Kid shows up and begins taking the Urans out, looking for the last shard. The Urans, realizing that Zulf brought this upon them, attempt to kill him when the Kid shows up. The Uran scatter, leaving the unconscious body of Zulf with you. Zulf, this guy that you rescued, betrayed you and everyone else. He damaged the Bastion, he sent the Urans to kill you and the rest of the survivors, and now he's laying in front of you. His life in your hands. What do you do? Do you leave him to rot as the rest of the land is consumed by the tremors of the Calamity, or do you forego your own wrath, ill will, sense of betrayal, and instead pick up the limp body and carry him through the barrage of arrows, bullets, and bolts fired at you; braving the worst of the Uran guards to bring back one survivor, who betrayed you and everyone else around you, to the very place he had tried to destroy?

In The Killer, you're a guy pushing a guy. No context. No idea who the two people on screen are. Who are you? A soldier? A revolutionary? A state soldier? An executioner? Who is the other guy? A civilian? A spy? An assassin? Another soldier? A leader of a rebel movement? An oppressive leader? A soldier? No answers. No context. You only get an idea of what happens after holding the space bar and either shooting the guy or not shooting the guy. Where's what I got from the actual input: take this guy to the field and shoot him. I did. Those were my orders. What occurs afterwards? "Because of people like you, people died. Feel bad. You monster."

Now, which one of these two examples looks to be more impactful?

If you want to make a fucking point, then make people care about those involved first, THEN make the fucking point. Trying to make a point when there's no context of the events or characters, and then having the balls to tell people that they're bad people post-deed is like... Giving a man in a tuxedo twenty dollars and then being chastised for it because he was homeless and going to buy alcohol with it or...

Smearing shit on a canvas.