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Oginam

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Oginam

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@anund said:

This whole discussion is so pointless. I don't see why it has to be an either/or situation? Why does a digital library require a draconian DRM system?

How about, oh I don't know... if you purchase a game digitally it gets added to your digial library of games. You can access this library while you are online. If you want to play offline, just buy a disc and slap it in the system. Problem fixed, no? Everyone is happy. The people who don't mind playing online always can do so and get the benefits of an always present digital library and the people who want to be able to play offline can do so with discs.

And why, if digital purchases are so much better for the industry are they always more expensive than their disc-based counterparts? A new game on Steam is invariably €5 - €10 more expensive to buy directly through Steam rather than getting a physical copy in a store.

Steam has a DRM system and PC games that you buy at retail have had one-use keys for even longer than Steam has existed. Microsoft's policies were modeled after that idea but their messaging and some of the concepts (the "draconian" ones) were taking away too much from the end user.

It would be nice if both could work but it would likely kill one of the markets, I'm guessing the downloadable side. In your scenario, if a person who uses the console primarily offline wants to purchase a downloadable title s/he would then be prevented from playing it offline like all the other games s/he owns. Unless you allow purchased digital games to be played offline, in which case why would an online connection be required at all?

To a company like Microsoft the solution is one or the other. If you allow unhindered offline play, there is no way to restrict who is actually playing the game; this isn't a loss of user rights, by the way, one purchased copy of a game should, hypothetically, only be played by one person and/or his/her immediate family. It is, however, a lack of faith in consumers to not unduly hurt the profitability of the games industry (which some would argue has been shown to be a reasonable stance and that even companies, like Gamestop, have practices in place that exist to leech money away from developers and publishers). If you have online verification that has to extend to all physical and digital copies of the game - only digital would just hurt digital sales outright and the real battle is over physical copies anyway.

I don't know about the euro cost for digital games, but that isn't the case in the U.S. Maybe it's tax related? A digital game is usually the same price if not cheaper on Steam than a physical copy.

The end result in all this is that Microsoft did an amazingly poor job of making the case that it wanted to be (or even could be) a console version of Steam; and Sony took advantage of the situation to better themselves rather than hold the line with Microsoft and, probably, the majority of the games industry that convinced Microsoft to go this route in the first place.

tl:dr Microsoft screwed up on the small details, not the bigger picture (moving toward a digital future). But Sony filled in those details in a way Microsoft believed it simply could not fight against, so it changed to level the playing field for this console generation.

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Oginam

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This is retroactively ruining parts of my childhood and making other parts seriously bad ass.

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Oginam

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@shrillgore: A better question would be how long will Sony support them. As soon as Sony trotted out Jonathan Blow everyone seemed to forget how much Sony had been dicking over small studios (even some Sony owned ones) in the last few years. And we should never forget that Sony's "platform exclusivity" on the PS3 has straight up killed studios that could of brought the game to PC and potentially survived. People like to hate on Microsoft but their policies about timed exclusives even for MS published games has been just fine for developers and does not prevent the PC consumer from playing the game.

Maybe that changes now that the PS4 architecture is x86 based and not the PS3's cell, so it would be almost no work to port from PS4 to PC, but only time will tell.

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Oginam

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Not that I was planning to get one (not big into Halo, Gears, or Forza) but it's too bad that they took such an all-or-nothing approach. Not sure if it's been said already, but it feels like they really did build the system from the ground up to work with this DRM, and it was inflexible enough this late in development that their only two options were either leave it on, or turn the whole thing off.

Small tangent, it makes me wonder how long they've been working on the software end of this, if, even a few days ago they were talking about lending "coming latter". That feels like the sort of thing you would want to have nailed down before launch, not after it.

Publishers had a big hand in the DRM stuff, so I would imagine they would also want lending/trading to be put on hold until after launch otherwise the sales on games initially would be abysmal.

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Oginam

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@zaapp1 said:

This makes Microsoft look much weaker and will probably piss off the publishers they had appeased. I'm sure they did some number crunching, but if people thought Microsoft was behind before, they definitely are now. The boxes are now identical, but one costs $100 more.

The only thing Microsoft is behind in is popular perception and some minor differences in console specs (which may or may not mean a damn thing performance wise). If there is a 6-12 month Live subscription in the box, then the $100 is easily made up by the Kinect + Live (PS4 doesn't ship with a camera, so that's $60 more if you want it) assuming Sony doesn't include a similar Plus membership (which is doubtful considering how much free stuff a Plus membership gets you).

Microsoft still easily bests Sony's network and service infrastructure, if we go by the current gen as any indication of competence or capability (see: PS3's getting bricked by an update today and a million other examples).

There is a lot we still don't know about both consoles though, but I don't see how today's news makes MS look weaker. This was a good change to policy prior to launch, which is something we should all hope for regardless of which company it is. Shit, it took Sony until the PS4 to try and make amends for the PS3 so they're not in the best of shape either.

Regardless, short of either company declaring they are making the "next WiiU", neither console is going to fail this year. MS and Sony aren't Nintendo, people will buy their consoles.

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Oginam

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#6  Edited By Oginam

@nofzac said:

@devilgunman said:

@nofzac said:

I will say that the $499 MS price looks too high right now, but there have been rumors for weeks that they will offer a subsidy for 2 year XBL contracts. I wouldnt be surprised if they launch with a $399 w/ 2 year XBL agreement price point.

I'm 100% certain at this point that it has been proven false. There was no point for MS to hold anything back in their announcement especially if it's positive. If MS didn't announce subsidized price yesterday (they didn't even give a hint), it means there is no such thing.

See - i disagree with this. I think they dont show all their cards until they know what Sony is doing. This is how Sony was able to capitalize on the whole Used Game fiasco and price point so well.

Closer to launch they announce a $200 subsidy (or potentially even less) and that will get them the install base they want. Sony can't possibly undercut that during the holidays, so mainstream gamers will pick up the cheaper of the two like its a new phone and be content.

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#7  Edited By Oginam

@thrice_604: It was prime time in EU and announcing stuff at 10 pst in the US is for the mainstream media cycle. It isn't about who actually "watches" the event, its about the coverage that follows; several hours of a talking head saying "new Microsoft XBOX" on the news, plenty of time for websites to have articles, and time enough for newspapers to write up stories for the next day.

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Oginam

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Not surprising at all that an hour long press conference for a broad, mainstream audience isn't well received by people who read gaming websites (which is kind of why MS told us upfront that this wasn't intended for us).

On a more cynical note, I'm of two minds on the "mixed messaging". Maybe MS fucked up; or maybe its a red herring to see reaction from potential buyers or mess with Sony. Mattrick could easily walk out on stage at E3 and assuage all the criticism upfront then show and tell a bunch of games - no need to talk about media this and kinect that, they got it out of the way. Sony, on the other hand, hasn't talked enough about services or revealed what the console looks like - so there's a good 10-20 mins of that press conference shot to shit.

Both have a lot of work to do either way.

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Oginam

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#9  Edited By Oginam

Beaten all the 3 key doors I can find. I believe one of the islands, the one that has a center square and a square near each of its corners, is something "different". I'm trying right now to get to it.

Edit: Just going to confirm that there is an ending. Completing 3 star doors is key. Good luck.

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Oginam

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#10  Edited By Oginam

@xeirus said:

@zevvion said:

@xeirus said:

@hashbrowns said:

@xeirus said:

@hashbrowns said:

@oginam said:

tl:dr - NextBOX won't read 360 discs but it'll probably still run 360 games via emulation.

Blu-ray drives can read DVDs.

Um I believe that's because there are two separate lasers, not because one reads the other...

And those two separate lasers are both in the Blu-ray drive, therefore Blu-ray drives can read DVDs. I can't think of a single Blu-ray drive that's been built that excludes DVD playback. To think that Microsoft will be commissioning a custom Blu-ray drive that EXCLUDES such a ubiquitous, common and basic feature seems absurd on the face of it.

I just wanted to clarify the situation.

Also, I'm not convinced Microsoft will be using a blu-ray player. It seems stupid when people are latching on to streaming more and more not to mention having to give their money to Sony. But I guess we'll see.

Valid points, but if they will not include Blu Ray and go for download/streaming only, they would cut their audience in half. Allot of people want to actually own the game physically, not to mention there are allot of places where downloading/streaming isn't a viable option.

They need some form of physical distribution. They can't bring back HDDVD and they sure as hell cannot stick with DVD once more. SD cards with sufficient space are far too expensive and developing an entirely new format even more so. Blu Ray seems the best option.

In half? You are giving Blu-Ray WAY too much credit, it hasn't made a significant dent in DVD sales.

I personally have never and don't know anyone who has ever bought a Blu-ray when a DVD was an option.

They can absolutely stick with DVDs, it's still a completely viable option. But I personally wouldn't miss DVDs either, I stream -everything- these days anyway, as do most people. Digital will grow more and more over this "next-gen" cycle, so if they are truly planning ahead they can toss all that crap out.

Everything will be steam box type things soon anyway, PC is where it ends.

Blu-ray has significantly more capacity than a DVD. There is no way Microsoft continues to use multiple DVDs when a single Blu-ray will do that job and more. They could still present a new disc format, but I think that's extremely unlikely.