Why does Treyarch have so much hate for sniping in this game?

It seems like from watching all the interviews and developer diaries on this game that Treyarch has had an axe to grind with sniping since the first planning meeting of this game.  At launch the sniper classes were basically what you should choose if you wanted to have your ass handed to you in anything except Search and Destroy. We've been promised measures that will level the playing field but even after a title update that was supposed to "fix" the sniper rifles to make them more competitive, they're still impractical to use because of several issues.  
 
First, The sniper rifie, by design,  is best used at a distance and with the exception of 1 map (Array) that's IMO actually best suited for it, most of the maps are not.  Most of the maps have a  tight corridors or such a limited number of sniping positions, many of which that are easily flanked from multiple angles, that choosing a sniper class often becomes a recipe for failure
 
The other problem besides the map design is that the sniper rilfes in this game just don't handle as well.  The generous aim assist that was present in Modern Warfare 2 has been dialed back  in this game and as such, sniping requires more precision.  Conversely most of  assualt rifiles, LMG's and even SMG's in this game  handle better and are more than capable of taking out the same target at medium to long range.  As if making a sniper's primary weapon nearly useless by comparison wasn't enough, Treyarch also dialed down the damage dealt by the pistols in this game effectively leaving a cornered sniper without a close range weapon to fend off a rushing opponent, again leaving the deck stacked against a sniper.  
 
The final nail in the coffin for the snipers, which is one i don't really have a problem with "on paper", is the decision to take measures against quick scoping.  In case anyone doesn't know what that is, just go to youtube and type in quickscoping and see for yourself.  Now i'll be the first to admit the rage that consumed me when a quickscoper would decimate my entire team in MW2, but coupled with the rest of the changes listed above, this just comes off as overkill.  The snipers are effectively nearly useless class unless you need a last resort tool to take out a person who's been dug-in a particular location and all other efforts have failed. 
 
In short, i think Treyarch has made a fantastic multiplayer game.  I enjoy it even though i have my opinion on things that could be made different just as i'm sure you have yours.  Still, it's a bummer to see a whole class of weapons rendered useless because of abuse they've suffered in the past (and I admit that they WERE abused in previous games).  The draw to CoD multiplayer for me has always been the different play styles all being thrown into the same game creating a delightfully fun sense of chaos that i don't want to see reduced to 12-18 guys running around with the same 3 weapons.  

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Posted by OldManLight

It seems like from watching all the interviews and developer diaries on this game that Treyarch has had an axe to grind with sniping since the first planning meeting of this game.  At launch the sniper classes were basically what you should choose if you wanted to have your ass handed to you in anything except Search and Destroy. We've been promised measures that will level the playing field but even after a title update that was supposed to "fix" the sniper rifles to make them more competitive, they're still impractical to use because of several issues.  
 
First, The sniper rifie, by design,  is best used at a distance and with the exception of 1 map (Array) that's IMO actually best suited for it, most of the maps are not.  Most of the maps have a  tight corridors or such a limited number of sniping positions, many of which that are easily flanked from multiple angles, that choosing a sniper class often becomes a recipe for failure
 
The other problem besides the map design is that the sniper rilfes in this game just don't handle as well.  The generous aim assist that was present in Modern Warfare 2 has been dialed back  in this game and as such, sniping requires more precision.  Conversely most of  assualt rifiles, LMG's and even SMG's in this game  handle better and are more than capable of taking out the same target at medium to long range.  As if making a sniper's primary weapon nearly useless by comparison wasn't enough, Treyarch also dialed down the damage dealt by the pistols in this game effectively leaving a cornered sniper without a close range weapon to fend off a rushing opponent, again leaving the deck stacked against a sniper.  
 
The final nail in the coffin for the snipers, which is one i don't really have a problem with "on paper", is the decision to take measures against quick scoping.  In case anyone doesn't know what that is, just go to youtube and type in quickscoping and see for yourself.  Now i'll be the first to admit the rage that consumed me when a quickscoper would decimate my entire team in MW2, but coupled with the rest of the changes listed above, this just comes off as overkill.  The snipers are effectively nearly useless class unless you need a last resort tool to take out a person who's been dug-in a particular location and all other efforts have failed. 
 
In short, i think Treyarch has made a fantastic multiplayer game.  I enjoy it even though i have my opinion on things that could be made different just as i'm sure you have yours.  Still, it's a bummer to see a whole class of weapons rendered useless because of abuse they've suffered in the past (and I admit that they WERE abused in previous games).  The draw to CoD multiplayer for me has always been the different play styles all being thrown into the same game creating a delightfully fun sense of chaos that i don't want to see reduced to 12-18 guys running around with the same 3 weapons.  

Posted by Tennmuerti
@OldManLight: 
 
Shitty map design is the biggest issue of Blops imo. Like I've said numerous times.
The maps affect the entire flow of the game. The ones in Blops like you  mentioned practically cripple proper sniping into uselessness. The obvious "sniping spots" are just that: super obvious and also very exposed. Maps are tiny and cluttered with a huge amount of barriers and obstacles with little open ground, making snipers basically frag bait.
It's the same map design that enables people to just run around and top charts with knifes only (people like me)
There is effectively no actual long range on the maps, all encounters are short to medium range which SMGs and assault rifles are more then capable of handling.
 
About handguns, I would disagree, this is not a weakness at all. Carry a Python with a speed loader or dual wield them. A python fires very fast and at short range kills in 2 shots, 3 at long range making it a very powerful weapon. You can practically snipe with a single python or use two as shotguns basically.
 
I have nothing to add on quick scoping. Never liked it never will. It's a bastardization of a sniper that was born by exploitation of game mechanics. The sooner this term dies out the better.
However I have met people who can do it still with a degree of success in Blops. It just requires you to be really good now.
 

PS: If you truly want to snipe play BFBC2, it's very rewarding getting a head shot from half a kilometer away.
PSS: It's even more rewarding hoofing it behind enemy lines and taking the snipers dogtags.
Posted by haffy

Cod 4 and 6 were just bad for sniping. Cod 4 everyone just ran around like idiots with acogs 360 no scoping and stupid stuff like that. MW2 I just went around spraying my barret not worrying about having to get my secondary out ever. Fair enough the games meant to be fun. But the sense of realism should be there and reward you for playing like a sniper actually would. I find it fun when snipers are a niche class and play the support role. Ive got UAV, counter UAV and napalm strike just because it feels the sort of job a sniper would do. I run around with pistol out when I change spots, something I would never bother doing in the last couple of games.

Edited by plop1920

Also the fact that every rifle / smg is ultra accurate with little to no recoil, and every shot messes up the snipers aim more than any other gun 
 
Really hate to say this but I think mw2 had better balance than Black ops. Everything was so crazy unbalanced yet because of that almost every playstyle was good. Fuck even the lmg's were good in mw2

Posted by EpicSteve

Because they wanted to make a game that revolved around mid-range combat. Also, being sniped is no fun.

Posted by Baillie

Using a sniper for close - medium range isn't the intended purpose of a sniper rifle, that's why.

Posted by IceOrb

It's not that they hate sniper rifles it's that for the longest time sniper rifles in call of duty games have been fucking jacked
 
Under no circumstances should a person be able to instantly bring up a rifle and have perfect accuracy or be able to do four 360 spins and manage to pull off a perfectly accurate shot. What these people were doing was a known issue with the game were simply tapping the left trigger was enough to register you as "fully scoped" which allowed you full accuracy. It was dumb bullshit that needed to go away and as a result sniping is definitely harder but i'd argue it's more rewarding now when you manage to do it well. 
 
I mean look at stupid shit like this:
 
  

  
That's dumb.
 
This is what should happen and I'm glad that it does...
 
  
  
...all the time now.
 
  
  
The maps not being geared towards sniping however I can't really say to much on. From the time I've spent playing the game they feel about the same as the range of maps in MW2. There is the one huge map, the one tiny map, the mid range maps, the meat grinder, and the straight map. To each their own though.
 
Bottom line though they definitely did something good cause eliminating 360 quick scope nonsense needed to happen. 
 
Also worth noting that they did release a patch recently that raises the chances you'll get a headshot with every rifle so you may want to give them a try again. Headshots are much easier to get now but still requires a bit of skill.
Posted by Deeveeus
@IceOrb said:
" It's not that they hate sniper rifles it's that for the longest time sniper rifles in call of duty games have been fucking jacked
 
Under no circumstances should a person be able to instantly bring up a rifle and have perfect accuracy or be able to do four 360 spins and manage to pull off a perfectly accurate shot. What these people were doing was a known issue with the game were simply tapping the left trigger was enough to register you as "fully scoped" which allowed you full accuracy. It was dumb bullshit that needed to go away and as a result sniping is definitely harder but i'd argue it's more rewarding now when you manage to do it well. 
 
I mean look at stupid shit like this:
 
  
  
That's dumb.
 
This is what should happen and I'm glad that it does...
 
  
  
...all the time now.
 
  
   The maps not being geared towards sniping however I can't really say to much on. From the time I've spent playing the game they feel about the same as the range of maps in MW2. There is the one huge map, the one tiny map, the mid range maps, the meat grinder, and the straight map. To each their own though.  Bottom line though they definitely did something good cause eliminating 360 quick scope nonsense needed to happen.   Also worth noting that they did release a patch recently that raises the chances you'll get a headshot with every rifle so you may want to give them a try again. Headshots are much easier to get now but still requires a bit of skill. "
 
Nicely done...I fucking hate that in shooters where people can use sniper rifles in split seconds...professional snipers lay in wait....in perfect areas...with guns perched AND they have to do calculations on their scope BEFORE taking the shot. Sniper Rifles being as ridiculous as they were was just annoying...try playing Counter Strike...Sweet Jesus
Posted by BerserkingGuts

It's hard to begrudge treyarch for trying to create a level playing field for everyone. In games like COD3 the snipers made the larger maps their own play-ground, and to a similar extent World at War. The problem is they've nerfed the weapon class back so much that, for me at least, I feel as if I need to use the ACOG to get a decent aim in the tighter corridors. My favorite maps are those that cater to both types: tighter, multi-opened corridors for close-mid range, and the larger sections for snipers to have their own fun. 

Posted by OtakuGamer
What pisses me off is that even if I get a chest/head shot, its doesn't kill them. I'm not going out there pretending to be zzirgrizz or anything, I'm staying back trying to support my team from afar because that is my playstyle.  
 
Why would anyone have a problem with that, because you can't flank or throw a smoke or is it just you cant stand getting shot in the face? 
Edited by FireBurger

Sniping is definitely harder in Black Ops than previous Call of Dutys, but I have actually been able to get pretty good with it. I never really played as a sniper since COD2, and once I got bored in Black Ops I decided to try it out. At first, it definitely seemed like it was useless, but you eventually get a feel for it. I think my K:D with the L96A1 is something like 3.7, though admittedly I often die at close range after switching to my pistols (something like a .7 K:D ratio). I've been using the SR-71, Chopper Gunner, and Attack Dogs killstreaks and have gotten them a fair number of times. 
 
I don't mean to simply be bragging, just saying that it is possible to do well once you adjust your playstyle. 
 
My sniper loadout: 
 
L96A1, Variable Scope
Dual Pythons (using dual pistols allows for a new, fully-loaded pistol in Last Stand)  
Tomahawk 
Claymore 
Ghost Pro 
Scout Pro (once you get this, fighting at close range is much easier) 
Last Stand Pro 
 
One other tip is to always switch out your secondary as soon as you walk over a new weapon. I'm almost always carrying a sniper rifle and an AR/SMG. Also, I should mentioned that I play primarily CTF and I mostly stay on defense, though I do sometimes capture the enemy flag and I'm not a bitch who won't chase a flag carrier out into the middle of the map.

Posted by iam3green

i think it's because they wanted the game more balanced. people use to quick scope all the time. if people actually did do that in real life they would miss because they can't aim. 
 
they should upgrade it a little bit because now they are under powered. it makes sniping bad. my friend snipes all the time and i have to hear him complain about how the sniper didn't kill that guy.

Posted by mason_pat

The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above.  That is retarded.  

Posted by OldManLight
@mason_pat
The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above.  That is retarded.  
Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!"
Posted by natetodamax

They played Halo: Reach and realized that sniping ruins multiplayer.

Posted by Infininja
@FireBurger said: 
M40, Variable Scope (this adds range so you get more one-shot kills)   
 
Hmm, the M40 isn't  in this game and the variable scope has no effect on range.
@OldManLight said:
" @mason_pat
The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above.  That is retarded.  
Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!" "
Guns in video games should almost never be dictated by their real life counterparts. That said, @mason_pat actually meant it's a one hit kill from the stomach or above, or so some of the latest videos to come out claim. 
 
It's an issue of balance between the sniper rifles. There's almost no advantage to using the L96A1 now.
Posted by natetodamax
@OldManLight said:
" @mason_pat
The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above.  That is retarded.  
Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!" "
If every gun in the game was directly based off their real life counterparts, everyone would go down in 1-2 shots.
Posted by Sanious
I don't like 'realistic' arguments because I don't play video games for the to be 100% realistic. There has to be some non-realistic trait or it wouldn't be fun. This is why pre-patch you hardly saw anyone using them because they weren't fun to use. There has to be a middle ground, making them realistic is boring. I think Treyarch patching Snipers is on the right track if they keep it up and make necessary tweaks. 
 
Plus the main reason Snipers got irritating is because of every little retard thinking they should run around and 360'ing off of every thing they can think of.  Quickscoping really didn' t bother me all too much but I think at this point it seems to be just right.
Posted by FireBurger
@Infininja: Sorry, L96A1. And I'm pretty sure the Variable Scope adds some green to the range bar, or it at least did at one point.
Posted by ZombieHunterOG

i agree with most of what you are saying 
 
however pythons are a snipers best friends especially dual wielding them with slight of hand it makes you feel like the real john wayne and most people are not expecting them

Posted by Deeveeus
@Sanious: Fair enough, I don't want 100% realism, it's boring, but my point is these are games that are steeped in realism
Posted by Infininja
@FireBurger said:
" @Infininja: Sorry, L96A1. And I'm pretty sure the Variable Scope adds some green to the range bar, or it at least did at one point. "
The in-game bars lie to you. Tell me, what does range even mean to you in relation to how guns function in the game? 
 
The only thing the variable scope does is replace the regular scope with a variable scope. The gun itself functions the same.
Posted by GhostlyEnigma

Black Ops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modern Warfare 2 
 
That's all I'm going say on this subject. Now if you excuse me, I'll be playing B:BC2. 
 

Posted by HandsomeDead

Because sniping is for cunts, exclusively.

Posted by Infininja
@GhostlyEnigma said:
" Black Ops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modern Warfare 2 
 
That's all I'm going say on this subject. Now if you excuse me, I'll be playing B:BC2. 
 
"
The spoiler is a lie.
Posted by GhostlyEnigma
@Infininja said:
" @GhostlyEnigma said:
" Black Ops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modern Warfare 2 
 
That's all I'm going say on this subject. Now if you excuse me, I'll be playing B:BC2. 
 
"
The spoiler is a lie. "
The ca... Nah, forget it. It's been done to death.
Posted by Sanious
@Deeveeus: I understand. My point is just that even when a game wants to be 'realistic' there still needs to be a bit of non-realistic traits to keep it fun. But I'll agree that 360'ing is something that is beyond fucking stupid and is something that never impressed me at all.
Posted by jakob187

I'm sorry.  I think what you really meant to say was "why does Black Ops hate quick-sniping cocksuckers so much?".  The answer is "because being a quick-sniping cocksucker does not mean you have any skill". 
 
I love how all the bitches complain about Black Ops.  At work, all day long, kids complain that they can't use their cheap ass bullshit from Modern Warfare 2 anymore, and then I laugh at them and say "then go play an inferior game!" and point at Modern Warfare 2. 
 
Seriously, Black Ops is the tightest game that has released under the Call of Duty banner since CoD2.  Love it every time I pop it in.

Posted by KaosAngel

If they are so bothered with Quick Scoping, just do it the TF2 way.  Give extra damage if a guy stays scoped in with an increased accuracy.

Posted by Deeveeus
@Sanious: Oh 100%! The "hide and heal" along with picking up med packs for "health" is some of the most far fetched crap ever, but if something that is involved in the game play, I mean in that exact moment "not talking the healing :P", that is so mental as someone just being able to do that 360 junk, it just takes away from the intensity of the moment, makes it feel cheap and lame...reminds you "Yup, this is a game"
Posted by FireBurger
@Infininja: To my understanding, the range affects the damage that the bullet will do over distance. Basically, this.
   
In any event, it clearly works for me, so I'm happy.
Edited by Infininja
@FireBurger: Sniper rifles in CoD games do not lose damage over distance. The differences are only whether or not a silencer is attached and the multipliers for hitting different body parts, which are different for each rifle. 
 
The only gun where a scope affects damage drop off (the only measurable thing pertaining to range, where the in-game stat bars aren't lying to you) in this game is putting an ACOG on the python, which increases the distance it does max damage. 
 
  
I'm not saying the variable scope is a bad attachment, but the only benefit it is giving you is being able to zoom less or more.
Posted by jmic75

Yeah have to say I've never regularly a sniper in black ops, most rifles are just as accurate and do almost as much damage. When you have to put two rounds into someone and then they just go into second chance...you leave yourself waay to open to counter attack. I'm liking black ops but it has the same problem as with World at War, crazy spawns, too often you get put right beside 3 enemies, I don't remember call of duty 4 having this issue. 

Posted by FireBurger
@Infininja: Hmm, alright. Good to know. I still like the 3 zoom levels, though, so I'll keep using it.
Posted by bobafettjm

I am completely happy that they toned down the sniper rifles. Sniper rifles were the worst part of Modern Warfare 2 for me, and that stupid 360 thing is ridiculous.

Posted by august
@HandsomeDead said:
" Because sniping is for cunts, exclusively. "
Okay that's not fair. Sniping is for cunts AND twats.
Online
Posted by ShinjiEx

Sniper Rifles have no place in a game like COD why they brought them back is beyond me!

Posted by Pibo47
@OldManLight: Couldnt agree with you more, ive felt this way since the game came out. I am selling black ops tomorrow. I always sniped alot in the other cods. So i guess ill play some of that BF veitnam or something.
Posted by Monopolized
@Deeveeus:  Counter Strike. Right click shoot.. wow.. it's not much harder then that, i don't have a problem with the sniper rifles taking longer to pull up sights and to acquire a target. but for this to be effective the maps need to be much much bigger and bullets should drop over time because you can kill someone with an m16 across map before the sniper get's his scope to even out.
Posted by Mikemcn

Quickscopers are serious jerks and I really hate that the words 360 ladder pause no scope mean something to me. 

Posted by Tennmuerti
@jakob187: 
Actually proper snipers are pretty gimped in Blops too.
I hate quick scoping as much as any other dude, but in Blops hard scoping is completely ineffective also. Any sniper thinking he can hard scope in Blops get quickly taken out by an assault rifle or a knife in the back. The people who can make it work are very very rare.
Posted by Ben99

omg it's not getting easier for me at all to snipe in this game . It has a totally different feeling than what I'm used to in MW2 . That said, I think I might get better at it when I play with the sniper (L96A1) more. 
For those who say snipers should be like real life . I don't want a real life in gaming . I bought this game to have fun , to break the monotony of "real life" . A good player is a good player no matter how "unbalanced" a game is . They always find their way around...I'm talking about mw2 here . I think black ops should have been the same as mw2 only with further improvement from mw2 as their example .

Posted by impalerXZ

This shit generally falls under the  "Good job, you fucked it.." category. At first sniping in Modern warfare 2 was pretty good, you shot people from a safe vantage point like any other man with long ranged weaponry. But then children and SUPER HARDCORE MLG LEET happened and the game was ruined forever.

Posted by Rockdalf
@OldManLight said:
" @mason_pat
The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above.  That is retarded.  
Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!" "
If you shot a sniper like you do in Black Ops you would be sitting on your ass trying to figure out which way is up.  Give and take.
Posted by captain_max707
@Ben99: Don't you realize how close to the truth your wish is?
Posted by OldManLight
@Rockdalf I'm not disagreeing with you and I prefer to crouch or prone when sniping but the map design mostly prohibits that. And the same could be said about most of the guns in the game.
Posted by melcene

It seems to me that it's just fine.  People are just ticked because snipers can't get that perfect crow's nest.  They actually have to watch their backs, just like the rest of the players.  They can actually be shot back just like the rest of the players.... I dunno... The problem was getting to be that in the previous CoD games, once someone got their sniper nest going, they were unstoppable - and that's simply ridiculous.  As for an entire class being rendered useless.... yer doin it wrong then.  I have seen plenty of maps, all CtF's, where sniping works just fine as long as you're doing it right.  Shoot, displace, shoot displace.  Don't expect to stay in one fucking spot and own the entire map.

Posted by ShadowKnight508

In my opinion, the developers at Treyarch noticed the constant quick-scoping sniping kills that were taking place in Modern Warfare 2, and they wanted to make it so that you had to actually look down the scope and look for that next kill instead of getting cheap kills (like the AWP spam you see on Counter-Strike: Source on the CS_Office Level). I was never a big fan of sniping online (no fun camping out waiting for your prey), so it does not bother me at all. It was annoying in MW2 how it happened all of the time, but at least in Black Ops, the number of snipers to me seems lower than other classes.

Posted by Rockdalf
@OldManLight said:
" @Rockdalf I'm not disagreeing with you and I prefer to crouch or prone when sniping but the map design mostly prohibits that. And the same could be said about most of the guns in the game. "
Exactly my point.  The game is an arcade shooter, not a realistic shooter.  Loosely based on reality at best.  If they actually configured maps to allow a realistic sniper rifle to work, there would be no point in anyone picking any other weapon.  I understand it's possible to have a map where the games snipers work better, but to say that it should kill in one shot to the chest is completely missing the point.  ANY gun here should kill in one to three shots to the chest, at the very least they shouldn't be sprinting around a corner after receiving fire and walking it off.
Posted by Pezen

From my experience, it mostly boils down to map layout. The more I think about it, the more maps come up that are somewhat sniper friendly. The major problem is that most areas are built to make nesting impossible due to several entrances. The other is making most high places are risk/reward with being more exposed.

I think my main gripe though is that instead of feeling like a more slow/tactical class, it feels just a bit more towards sluggish/luck.

Here's another example; was testing out the wager game today and there's the gun game where with each kill you get a new (better) gun. And for a while, it really felt like the more you killed, the better it went because you got better guns. Until I got a Sniper rifle and I felt like I took three steps back and had to work around the gun rather than with it.

In a way I am still undecided. But right now, it's easier to 'snipe' with an assult rifle sporting an acog than an actual sniper rifle. But Iam realizing I am having to re-learn things in a slightly different way now.

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