Something went wrong. Try again later

snide

This user has not updated recently.

2692 1858 636 108632
Forum Posts Wiki Points Following Followers

Woah, got too many questions about Mass Effect 2

 OK. I guess there needs to be some clarification about my comments on TNT about Mass Effect 2 as I received way too many PMs on the subject. 
 
First let me start by saying that of all games released last year, I'd put Mass Effect 2 up there pretty high as the a game I would recommend to a random gamer I met on the street under the age of 30. This is strictly a personal opinion and more a commentary on the direction of the industry in general. This discussion is specifically only meaningful to those who are familiar with the history of Bioware and the Western RPG genre. 
 
It is of my opinion that Dragon's Age will likely turn out to be one of the last, if not the last AAA produced single-player CRPG. What do I mean by the term CRPG? As an acronym, Computer Role Playing Game. Put in less generic terms, the type of RPG that follows the traditions of the Rogue, Ultima, Gold-Box, Wizardry, Might & Magic and Infinity Engine era.  I leave out The Elder Scrolls mostly because it has never been a party based game, and always existed in real-time in the first perspective. In that sense, The Elder Scrolls series was always more about exploration than combat. My guess is that over time, even the Elder Scrolls style games will rapidly devolve into games more along the lines of Fallout 3. That is to say, action games with light, meaningless skill progression that exist in large, explorable worlds. Are they RPGs? Yes. Are they part of the same genre of the old CRPGs I love? No. They share more in common with Red Dead Redemption than Wizardry.
 
If you ask the majority of people what they like about RPGs, they'll normally talk about the story. But to be honest, the story in most video games is horrible, and outside of a couple true gems like Planescape, we're really talking about great stories in relative terms within the medium. What I, and I believe some people who grew up on CRPGs really enjoyed, was the complicated, challenging and more importantly... flexible combat systems that existed in those games. When you're asking me to pinpoint how I can consider this genre dead, I'm pointing to the tactical combat portion of it. The story in Dragon Age was relatively great, and by all means Mass Effect 2 seems to be better, but I thought Dragon Age was a great game because the combat was rewarding. 
 
The combat in Mass Effect 2 is boring. It's is a shooter more than an RPG. That's OK, I like shooters and I certainly like STALKER and BioShock, so what's the deal? Well, I also think Mass Effect 2 is a shitty, uncomplicated, floaty shooter with fairly meaningless skill upgrades that they are for the most part pre-set and easy to choose. Fuck yeah I want better shields. Fuck yeah I want better X attack. The actual combat involves me moving from set-piece to set-piece Gears of War style. See those barricades? Oh. I guess a fight is about to happen, I better go hide behind this wall where I'm suddenly impenetrable from anything. Because of the meatiness of the health and shields in these types of games, you largely die because of a lack of patience (trying to kill them too fast) vs. making bad decisions in strategy. I miss the puzzles of battle. I miss counterspells. I miss crowd control. I miss focus fire. I even miss the idea of things like tumble rolls. I miss knowing that in some battles I should take the mage out first, but in others I should prolly sleep his minions and take out the healer.
 
Please don't confuse this with me thinking games are too easy. I can up the difficulty in games like Mass Effect 2 and make them difficult. But that change normally only effects my caution, not my planning. I'll admit, I couldn't make it through Mass Effect 2. But that was because the fights at hour 15 were the same fights I had at hour 2. I just couldn't walk through any more barricaded chambers. The rock, paper, scissors shield mechanics created a formula that was static throughout the course of my time in the game.
 
I did enjoy the story and the characters for the most part. It's what got me through the first game. But once I found that I was going through another assemble the team style plot device (it was a weakness in DA too), even that couldn't keep me going. You want me to walk through all 3 ship decks with their individual loading points to get to the fun conversations? Ugh... at least in Dragon Age they were all sitting at that one camp. Morrigan was all of 10 steps away. Having to make my way through the ship in ME2 was the worst. I quit. I had to. I finished one of those world missions and went through all that mediocre combat and now I've gotta spend 30 minutes walking around just so that I don't feel I'm missing out on anything. Done. End. Rage Quit. 
 
But this is the new style of "RPG". They are essentially hybrid shooters with dialog trees. Deus Ex plus. Remember when Deus Ex 2 came out and the whole world groaned? That is what I think about Mass Effect 2. Oh... OK, so you took all the challenging bits out of a the good style of game you used to make (I'm talking infinity engine), made the world progression a lot more linear and made it so that it's impossible to totally gimp your character with the trade off that non of these skill choices really matter. 
 
It's certainly nothing new, and it's not Mass Effect 2's fault. If we're looking to point the finger, KOTOR is certainly the one that lead us here. I only chide Mass Effect 2 so much because I'm bitter no one is making combat CRPGs anymore. The Eastern Block style games are closest. They are both challenging and radically different. Say what you will about the technical qualities of games like STALKER, The Void or Amnesia. They are god-damned different that it takes you a couple hours just to figure out how to play them correctly. Look, that limits their appeal, but shit, that's what I enjoy out of games these days: a novel approach.  
 
I wouldn't be so mad about these games existing other than that they are pure replacements, rather than alternatives to the style of game in which they preceded. I wouldn't lose all hope though. There's still an audience for this stuff. We're not huge, but I get PMs almost daily from people who miss the old style combat CRPGs. That's what the independent gaming movement will eventually find. It's not just about games like Braid that push you outside of the mainstream to some higher plane, it's simply about reaching a smaller, passionate audience. We're out there and we're waiting. 

272 Comments

273 Comments

Avatar image for fudge91
fudge91

208

Forum Posts

55

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By fudge91
@Jimbo said:

" @Hashbrowns said:

"The rulesets and basic game mechanics are NOT THEMSELVES Role Playing.  Role Playing is about choice, flexibility, and an ability to influence events in a meaningful way; it has nothing to do with Dexterity, Strength, Defense, or any other numerical statistic-based mechanic."

Well said and I absolutely agree.  I really do not understand the argument that says Mass Effect is no longer an RPG.  You are straight up Role Playing throughout the whole game.  RPG stands for "Role Playing Game", not "Loot & Stat Game".
 
Saying "It's not an RPG, it's a Shooter!" also makes no sense.  The terms are not mutually exclusive and they're referring to different aspects of the game.  It's like describing a car and saying "It's not a fast car, it's a blue car!" - no, the car is fast and blue.  ME2 is an RPG and a Shooter.  If that doesn't fit with our need to neatly pigeonhole games into one exact category, then we need to come up with more/better categories. "
Aren't RPG's more about making your own charachter with a playstyle and an attitude that fits you. Cause choices and consequences  arent really the main point anymore, plenty of games have that now (Heavy Rain, GTA IV, Bioshock..)
Avatar image for jimbo
Jimbo

10472

Forum Posts

2

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Edited By Jimbo
@Fudge91: Personally, I'd consider Heavy Rain to be about the purest form of video game RPG there is - it's all RPing all the time afaik.  GTA 4 and Bioshock do give you some opportunity to roleplay, but it's about 2 choices in ~20 hours.  If you played a more active role in the narrative of those games, I'd consider them to be RPGs too.
Avatar image for fontan
Fontan

319

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Fontan
@ZimboDK said:
" @snide:  Damn Dave. If I ever go to the US, let me buy you a beer, 'cause I completely agree with everything in that post. "
Then make that two beers.
Avatar image for thehbk
TheHBK

5674

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 6

Edited By TheHBK

RPGs all follow different conventions for combat but what really brings them into one common genre is the way the player interacts with the story and how saying certain things or taking certain actions can change the story.  Thats what its really about and Mass Effect 1 and 2 do an amazing job of that.  You may not like the combat but the role, as in story role, part is great. 

Avatar image for snide
snide

2692

Forum Posts

1858

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 14

Edited By snide
@example1013: Oh man you mentioned Shadowbane. Whiskey Media Trivia. Our lead engineer Andy McCurdy worked on that game!
Avatar image for kingzetta
kingzetta

4497

Forum Posts

88

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Edited By kingzetta
@snide:
 Well the reason that people had such a reaction to what you said on TNT, is because you came off as a game snob.
It's not that you're a game snob, it's just you like what you like and that's that.
Avatar image for example1013
Example1013

4854

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Example1013
@snide: Hah, That's awesome! Tell him he helped make one of the greatest MMOs of all time!
Avatar image for ahoodedfigure
ahoodedfigure

4580

Forum Posts

41781

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 64

Edited By ahoodedfigure
@sarahsdad:  I've been trying to work in GM analogies for a while, with an emphasis on possibilities for design in games to come, but yeah, you lay down different emphases and it appeals to different players. If someone in a pen and paper game said that what they were playing wasn't an RPG because it was missing this or that people would just tell them to find a different game. Pen and paper is inclusive, it has to be because it's a niche hobby.  Now that CRPGs and the like are popular, everyone's into defining themselves through factions.  
 
I like just about any good entry, doesn't matter if it's something I'm supposed to like or not. I'm more about if they achieve the goals they set out to do or not. A lot of games fail that while still being what others define as perfect examples of RPGs. Some game bog down in intricate mechanics, some games are so much about story that you don't actually have enough choices for it to even be considered a game by most people's estimation. 
 
In the pen and paper world, you blame those excesses on the GM, but in computer gaming the GM is just sending you handouts, and it's up to the designers to actually adapt to player choice. I feel another essay brewing...
Avatar image for tennmuerti
Tennmuerti

9465

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 7

Edited By Tennmuerti
@snide: 
I love you oh so very much.
100% agree
Avatar image for tennmuerti
Tennmuerti

9465

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 7

Edited By Tennmuerti
@Jimbo said:

" The Witcher / The Witcher 2 doesn't fit what Dave is talking about at all.  If it goes anywhere it goes in the Mass Effect category.  If somebody is gonna sit there and tell me that The Witcher had 'complicated, challenging and flexible' combat then I am calling shenanigans on this whole discussion. "

It does if you install the insane difficulty mod. (it rebalances the combat and adds exta difficulties above the standard ones)
Then you need to approach each type of enemy differently with varied tactics and trategies. Stack different types of status effects and constantly be using different types of potions and blade oils.
 
 @Hamz said:

" Counterspells. That's a word you don't hear much, if at all, these days. "

Fucking counterspells, how do they work?
 
Spell contingencies is where it's at :P
Avatar image for sarahsdad
sarahsdad

1339

Forum Posts

3436

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 21

Edited By sarahsdad
@ahoodedfigure said:
 
 I like just about any good entry, doesn't matter if it's something I'm supposed to like or not. I'm more about if they achieve the goals they set out to do or not. A lot of games fail that while still being what others define as perfect examples of RPGs. Some game bog down in intricate mechanics, some games are so much about story that you don't actually have enough choices for it to even be considered a game by most people's estimation.  In the pen and paper world, you blame those excesses on the GM, but in computer gaming the GM is just sending you handouts, and it's up to the designers to actually adapt to player choice. I feel another essay brewing... "
 
There's the trouble in some cases, achieving the goal. Unless you know ahead of time what the developer was going for, how do you tell (aside from games that come out broken, and fail) if the developer did what they wanted, or if they did what you hoped they were going to do? 
I think some of the dev diary videos lately are really nice for that. I watched the recent one for Dragon Age 2 this morning, and even though I was already interested in the game, it's nice to see the definition of what they're going for. 
 
Now as far as the designers adapting to player choice, I may disagree with you about that unless you're talking about a longer term strategy than just a single game.
Avatar image for armaan8014
armaan8014

6325

Forum Posts

2847

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 17

Edited By armaan8014
@Abendlaender said:
" Sir, you are a wise, wise man. It's hard to find people who share my feelings about Mass Effect 2. Witcher 2 is the only RPG I look forward to in 2011 and I used to be a RPG Fan... "
I share the exact same feelings! And i'm so glad to see Dave felt the same as well.
Avatar image for ahoodedfigure
ahoodedfigure

4580

Forum Posts

41781

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 64

Edited By ahoodedfigure
@sarahsdad:  Designers already sort of adapt to player choice, some of them do anyway, by allowing player choices to have consequences. Bioware is sometimes really good at that-- looking at all the potential actions a player can do, even when you do them out of the expected order, sometimes having little surprises there waiting for you, even if it's just a bit of extra dialog acknowledging what you did. Doesn't mean it always happens, doesn't mean it's consistently satisfying, but I like that they think those things through ahead of time.  
 
One of the alternatives I guess is to put things on rails, another is to limit the consequences (which is a tactic in some open world games, leading to some absurd nonplussed reactions from NPCs), and some games adapt through level scaling of encounters and such.  My point is, though, that designers have a different, somewhat more difficult role of not being able to see what a player does, yet still being expected to provide a fun experience; one of the hallmarks of the pen and paper milieu is the understanding that players can do unexpected things.
Avatar image for sarahsdad
sarahsdad

1339

Forum Posts

3436

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 21

Edited By sarahsdad
@ahoodedfigure: That makes more sense. I was on a train of thought were I was thinking you meant that the dev. should be adapting the type of game on the fly, which didn't make sense. 
I agree with you that it's a great feeling when the adjustments are in how the world responds to what you're doing. 
Speaking of which, and not to go back to the well twice in one day, but I'm looking forward to the Dragon Age game coming up, especially if they're able to put in world changes over time based on the character actions.
Avatar image for jeanluc
jeanluc

4066

Forum Posts

7939

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 13

Edited By jeanluc  Staff
@snide:  
 I can understand and respect you opinion Dave, I think its just different then mine because of the time periods in which we grew up. 
One of the first ever RPGs I played was KOTOR, and I love that game. I played Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 and loved both those games as well. 
 
But I do think that your right. Its not that any of these games are bad, its that there different and should stay that way. Games like Mass Effect 2 shouldn't be the replacement of CRPGs, but instead should stand next to them as one of the many different styles of RPGs. 
So yes, I too think its sad that the CRPGs aren't being made anymore. Why can't we have both?
Avatar image for ahoodedfigure
ahoodedfigure

4580

Forum Posts

41781

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 64

Edited By ahoodedfigure
@sarahsdad:  I'm all for that sort of world-adjustment. The more the better!  I realize that it'll take a paradigm shift for those sorts of changes to feel really dramatic and far-reaching, though, since it takes a ton of work to basically give the game a makeover each time. I'm still waiting for games to reach a point where computing power is actually used to help fill in the gaps in a convincing way. Too often we get one extreme or the other, with Daggerfall levels of randomness or games that are very deep but feel like they're etched in bronze rather than being a living world.
 
Anyone play Darklands?  Or is this thread dead?
 
...
 
I'm always late to the party. *kicks rock*
Avatar image for twigger89
twigger89

360

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Edited By twigger89

Let's just hope Dragon Age 2 is more DA:O than it is ME2

Avatar image for raven10
Raven10

2427

Forum Posts

376

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 27

User Lists: 5

Edited By Raven10
@Von said:
" Well, nothing modern is going to beat Ultima IV and VII it seems. ;) (maybe Sword of Fargoal, but that's a dungeoncrawler, not a pure-blood RPG)   I also agree on most parts regarding ME2, especially the things about combat since that's what killed the fun for me and turned the latter half of the game into utter boredom, just to get to the damn ending. "
Richard Garriot wrote on his Twitter a while back that he was working on a new game. Maybe him and EA have made amends and we will get an oldschool Ultima game.  That would be amazing. But honestly, no RPG will ever beat those two games. Plain and simple. Yes many RPG's look better and some will have better stories, but those RPG's defined gaming in a way no other RPG can. 
 
@snide - I really like shooters that offer more strategy than having the quickest trigger finger. I thought that Crysis was a great example of a shooter with strategic combat that was about more than firing as quickly as possible. As for RPG's, I'm not a fan of turn based games, but I like strategy in my gaming. I enjoyed Mass Effect 2 but I agree that it ditched almost all the strategy from the first game, and definitely from older RPG's. Times change and ours is a more action oriented era. Shame really.
Avatar image for renegadesaint
RenegadeSaint

1640

Forum Posts

75

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

Edited By RenegadeSaint

I understand what you're saying, Dave. Well-written.

Avatar image for jayzilla
Jayzilla

2709

Forum Posts

18

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Edited By Jayzilla

I think bethesda should implement Demons' Souls combat mechanics into Skyrim or something really similar to it. They also need better character animations. That has always been their weakness. 

Avatar image for avantegardener
avantegardener

2491

Forum Posts

165

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 11

Edited By avantegardener

I find myself agreeing with you quite a bit. Mass effect 2, probably my favourite game of last year. But yet the points you make are totally valid, your primary interaction is arguably a second rate gears of war knock off. What it does so expertly create is atmosphere and immersion, and these for me anyway, make up for any weakness in the actual 'gameplay'.

Avatar image for mewarmo990
mewarmo990

862

Forum Posts

1131

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By mewarmo990

My introduction to CRPGs was KOTOR, and I loved it. Since then I've worked my way back through time thanks to GoG.com (with the exception of Dragon Age) and I think I see what you're saying, Dave. Basically, you miss a genre that is almost extinct in the industry.
 
Today's generation of games is not only less complicated, they're... different. I guess by design that makes them somewhat easier, but that's not really the point. To use BioWare as an example, following their games back and forward through time since KOTOR, it's easy and a little depressing to see how character dialogue and interaction - a main selling point of theirs - get distilled down into ME2 starting with KOTOR. It doesn't mean they're not good; I really enjoyed ME2 for what it was - a Gears-style shooter with great dialogue and limited skill progression - but it was nothing compared to ME1, which was more balanced regarding shooter vs. RPG, and completely unrecognizable compared to Baldur's Gate II, which I started playing a couple of weeks ago.

Avatar image for nickscorner
NicksCorner

569

Forum Posts

5

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By NicksCorner

Great read. Bring back infinity ingine games again!