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Stabbers_McGee

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Reasons I am Socially Pro-Choice but Philosophically Pro-Life

I am writing this because I had a conversation that mentioned crazy pro-lifers (the kind that terrorize people walking into Planned Parenthood). We didn't even have a debate or anything, but the ideas are now stuck in my head. I need to get them out.  These are my reasons for believing what I believe.
 

Reasons for being Socially and Politically Pro-Choice

 
I feel like these are the easy ones, so there are only a couple.
  • Outlawing abortions only leads to more death. People who want to have an abortion will find a way to do it, legally or otherwise. "Back alley" abortions are extremely dangerous. Thousands of people across the world die from them. If you consider an abortion murder, then two people are dying. If all life is sacred, then one life and one death is better than two deaths. Therefore, outlawing abortion kills more people than it saves. Education on sex and contraception will save more lives and prevent more unwanted pregnancies than outlawing abortions ever could.
  • People who are raped have been stripped of their free-will. They should not have to bear such a burden unless they choose to. If abortion is a sin in the eyes of your deity of choice, then the rapist should bear that sin.
 

Reasons for being Philosophically Pro-Life

 
For the longest time, I couldn't decide which side I was on. I eventually read an article for an ethics class that solidified my position. Since then, I have developed more reasons that the one argued for in the article.
  • I personally believe that a fertilized egg is every much a human being than a newborn baby. Note: I did not say 'person.' I said 'human being.' One could argue that a baby is not yet a person. They are acting on instinct alone to survive. Memories and experiences are what shape people. Babies have none. Therefore, how is a fetus any different. Yes, every baby is different. Some cry more, some laugh more, but can they conceptualize ideas? Can they think logically? I would argue that babies' varying "personalities" are not the result of life experience (because they have none yet), but of their genetics. Finally, a baby, if cared for, will develop into a person. A fetus, if cared for, will develop into a person (baring, of course, any unforeseen events in both cases). Both are simply stages in the path of becoming a person. It is not possible (given current scientific knowledge and technology or without interfering with the natural order of things) for a fertilized human egg to develop into a squid or kangaroo. It will become a person.
  • Every person already has a choice regarding their body: you may have sex or not have sex. If you have sex, you are accepting any and all consequences of your actions. (See above pro-choice arguments for rapes and why education is important)
  • Babies should not be treated like objects. When a married couple decided to have a baby, they are congratulated when the woman gets pregnant. It is like getting a new car when you can afford one. People think it is great and want to drive (or hold) it. When a single woman gets pregnant, they are met with sympathy. "Oh, no. I'm so sorry." I liken this to getting a new car... because you were drunk and weren't driving safe. Getting this car is not a joyous occasion. Should babies be treated the same as cars? No. Human beings have an inherent higher value. Life is precious. Shouldn't we treat it this way even if it wasn't planned?
  • Finally, draw a line on a sheet of paper. This line is the threshold of life. Situations above this line mean that there is greater happiness being experienced than would be without being alive. Below this line are things like being in a car wreck, having all four limps amputated, and being covered in burns which cause extreme pain at all times and will never completely heal. You are being fed through a tube because all your teeth were knocked out and your lips are burned off. Also, a bird ate your tongue for some reason. One could make the argument that it is no longer beneficial to be alive. This should ideally be a choice for the burn victim to make, but sometimes that is not an option. I cannot imagine a situation in which a person who is born to a single mom or grows up in foster shelters, then struggles through poverty their whole life could be in a position where they could say "Life is so hard. I have experienced zero happiness. I wish I had not been born." Even if this were the case, shouldn't they be the one making that decision? We can't predict the future. We can't just assume that an unplanned baby will experience a life so terrible that it is simply better to kill them before experiencing any of it. Are we really prepared to put their life below that line on the paper without actually knowing what will happen? Life may be hard at times. We aren't all privileged. But the vast majority of people would rather deal with some hardship than to have never existed. (This is essentially the argument I read in my ethics class)
 

Conclusion

 
We are not omniscient. We cannot divine what will befall a baby born into poverty or difficulty or to a teenage mother. We should not treat fetuses or fertilized eggs the same way we treat eggs released from PMS or sperm (which numbers in the hundred million per ejaculation). One is the product of choice. One is simply an occurrence in nature. I doubt many people are "pro-abortion." If no one ever had to go through the emotional and physical stress of an abortion, everyone would be much happier. It is doubtful we will ever reach that state, but education is the only way to get closer to it. Not criminalization. So, no, there isn't an easy answer. We can't just say "don't do it." But we should understand the consequences and examine the ideas and issues involved in this controversial and extremely important topic.
 
I'd love to hear any counter-arguments. Please, point holes in any of my logic. It's the only way to learn to strengthen my argument. Please be respectful though. There is no right answer... yet, at least.
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Stabbers_McGee

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Edited By Stabbers_McGee

I am writing this because I had a conversation that mentioned crazy pro-lifers (the kind that terrorize people walking into Planned Parenthood). We didn't even have a debate or anything, but the ideas are now stuck in my head. I need to get them out.  These are my reasons for believing what I believe.
 

Reasons for being Socially and Politically Pro-Choice

 
I feel like these are the easy ones, so there are only a couple.
  • Outlawing abortions only leads to more death. People who want to have an abortion will find a way to do it, legally or otherwise. "Back alley" abortions are extremely dangerous. Thousands of people across the world die from them. If you consider an abortion murder, then two people are dying. If all life is sacred, then one life and one death is better than two deaths. Therefore, outlawing abortion kills more people than it saves. Education on sex and contraception will save more lives and prevent more unwanted pregnancies than outlawing abortions ever could.
  • People who are raped have been stripped of their free-will. They should not have to bear such a burden unless they choose to. If abortion is a sin in the eyes of your deity of choice, then the rapist should bear that sin.
 

Reasons for being Philosophically Pro-Life

 
For the longest time, I couldn't decide which side I was on. I eventually read an article for an ethics class that solidified my position. Since then, I have developed more reasons that the one argued for in the article.
  • I personally believe that a fertilized egg is every much a human being than a newborn baby. Note: I did not say 'person.' I said 'human being.' One could argue that a baby is not yet a person. They are acting on instinct alone to survive. Memories and experiences are what shape people. Babies have none. Therefore, how is a fetus any different. Yes, every baby is different. Some cry more, some laugh more, but can they conceptualize ideas? Can they think logically? I would argue that babies' varying "personalities" are not the result of life experience (because they have none yet), but of their genetics. Finally, a baby, if cared for, will develop into a person. A fetus, if cared for, will develop into a person (baring, of course, any unforeseen events in both cases). Both are simply stages in the path of becoming a person. It is not possible (given current scientific knowledge and technology or without interfering with the natural order of things) for a fertilized human egg to develop into a squid or kangaroo. It will become a person.
  • Every person already has a choice regarding their body: you may have sex or not have sex. If you have sex, you are accepting any and all consequences of your actions. (See above pro-choice arguments for rapes and why education is important)
  • Babies should not be treated like objects. When a married couple decided to have a baby, they are congratulated when the woman gets pregnant. It is like getting a new car when you can afford one. People think it is great and want to drive (or hold) it. When a single woman gets pregnant, they are met with sympathy. "Oh, no. I'm so sorry." I liken this to getting a new car... because you were drunk and weren't driving safe. Getting this car is not a joyous occasion. Should babies be treated the same as cars? No. Human beings have an inherent higher value. Life is precious. Shouldn't we treat it this way even if it wasn't planned?
  • Finally, draw a line on a sheet of paper. This line is the threshold of life. Situations above this line mean that there is greater happiness being experienced than would be without being alive. Below this line are things like being in a car wreck, having all four limps amputated, and being covered in burns which cause extreme pain at all times and will never completely heal. You are being fed through a tube because all your teeth were knocked out and your lips are burned off. Also, a bird ate your tongue for some reason. One could make the argument that it is no longer beneficial to be alive. This should ideally be a choice for the burn victim to make, but sometimes that is not an option. I cannot imagine a situation in which a person who is born to a single mom or grows up in foster shelters, then struggles through poverty their whole life could be in a position where they could say "Life is so hard. I have experienced zero happiness. I wish I had not been born." Even if this were the case, shouldn't they be the one making that decision? We can't predict the future. We can't just assume that an unplanned baby will experience a life so terrible that it is simply better to kill them before experiencing any of it. Are we really prepared to put their life below that line on the paper without actually knowing what will happen? Life may be hard at times. We aren't all privileged. But the vast majority of people would rather deal with some hardship than to have never existed. (This is essentially the argument I read in my ethics class)
 

Conclusion

 
We are not omniscient. We cannot divine what will befall a baby born into poverty or difficulty or to a teenage mother. We should not treat fetuses or fertilized eggs the same way we treat eggs released from PMS or sperm (which numbers in the hundred million per ejaculation). One is the product of choice. One is simply an occurrence in nature. I doubt many people are "pro-abortion." If no one ever had to go through the emotional and physical stress of an abortion, everyone would be much happier. It is doubtful we will ever reach that state, but education is the only way to get closer to it. Not criminalization. So, no, there isn't an easy answer. We can't just say "don't do it." But we should understand the consequences and examine the ideas and issues involved in this controversial and extremely important topic.
 
I'd love to hear any counter-arguments. Please, point holes in any of my logic. It's the only way to learn to strengthen my argument. Please be respectful though. There is no right answer... yet, at least.
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DanielJW

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Edited By DanielJW

I hate the term pro-life. Who the fuck isn't pro-life? If I'm pro-choice it doesn't mean I hate life. Anyways I suppose your points are salient. Though I don't agree that a fertilized egg is a human being, at that point it's only a few cells, no more or less intelligence than an ice cube. Note I said an ice cube not "Ice Cube". A newborn baby does think on a level, and can interact with other people. It has wants and needs like everyone else. However an egg that's early on enough does not think and does not show any signs of being human. 
 
Also I'm not sure I agree where you say that the baby might enjoy life. Sure it might, but obviously if an abortion is being considered the parents don't want it. I think it would be immoral to birth something into a world where it's there by law, not love. A kid should be the byproduct of two people who want it there. Not a byproduct of a broken condom. 

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kaaaaaaahn

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Edited By kaaaaaaahn

i guess im pro life. but only slightly 

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Red

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Edited By Red
@DanielJW: You could say the exact same thing for "pro-choice". 
 
I think abortions are ridiculous, unless used in terms of incest or rape.
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DanielJW

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Edited By DanielJW
@Red said:
" @DanielJW: You could say the exact same thing for "pro-choice". "
Point taken.
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Stabbers_McGee

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Edited By Stabbers_McGee
@DanielJW: I agree that the terms 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' ]are BS. They are basically propaganda terms used to make each side sound better than the other. I simply use them because they are the accepted terms.
 
I can see your point on cells vs baby. They argument I was trying to make, though, was that neither is really a person in my opinion. During the whole Terry Schiavo thing, I think the "pro-pull-the-plug" side would argue that she was not longer a person. The body was a human, but there was no one inside. The difference is, fertilized eggs/cells/fetuses still have the potential to become a person. Terry didn't, though I suppose some would argue there was still a chance. I don't necessarily think there was. Anyway, I just think a person is an accumulation of experiences and memories. A baby, fresh from the womb, does not yet have those, but we still treat it as something more than a sack of meat.
 
As for bringing a baby into a world without love, can you say that it will never experience love? Perhaps not the same kind of love my parents gave me, but there are people in the world that will show him/her love at some point.
 
Anyway, thanks for the reply.
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Edited By Frederik

"  I liken this to getting a new car... because you were drunk and weren't driving safe" 
 
"  f you have sex, you are accepting any and all consequences of your actions" 
  
You can't bring a person into this world as a moral lesson for the parent. "You have been irresponsible so here's a baby as a punishment"?!  
 
(And I hate those fucking plus-words as well... "I'm not a rapist, I'm pro-loving-thy-neighbor")

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Stabbers_McGee

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Edited By Stabbers_McGee
@Frederik: Hmm... that's not exactly what I meant. I think that oatmeal comic arjuna posted makes my point. A baby is not a mistake to just be undone. There aren't do overs in life. People know (or at least should) the consequences of having sex. If you decide to, then you are also saying you accept any and all consequence: pregnancy, STD, or emotional trauma to name the potential negatives. If you don't think you can handle that, then you should stick to masturbation.
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DanielJW

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Edited By DanielJW
@Stabbers_McGee: I can't say it won't experience love, but chances are it will grow up an a household that doesn't want it and isn't prepared for it. A child like that is bound for issues. Not only is it going to put strain on the parents but it'll put strain on government programs like welfare, foster care, social service, etc. If we can stop all that trouble from coming by ending a life form that isn't even functional yet, I think that's fine.
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jeffgoldblum

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Edited By jeffgoldblum

You make a good point, but I'm pro choice for sure.

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Metric_Outlaw

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@Frederik said:
" "  I liken this to getting a new car... because you were drunk and weren't driving safe"  "  f you have sex, you are accepting any and all consequences of your actions"   You can't bring a person into this world as a moral lesson for the parent. "You have been irresponsible so here's a baby as a punishment"?!   (And I hate those fucking plus-words as well... "I'm not a rapist, I'm pro-loving-thy-neighbor") "
If you're a big enough person to have sex then you should be a big enough person to take responsibility of using birth control, a condom, etc.
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DCFGS3

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Edited By DCFGS3

Pro-Choice doesn't mean pro-death, or even pro-abortion, I don't think anyone is pro-abortion.

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Frederik

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Edited By Frederik
@TimAllen624 said:

" @Frederik said:

" "  I liken this to getting a new car... because you were drunk and weren't driving safe"  "  f you have sex, you are accepting any and all consequences of your actions"   You can't bring a person into this world as a moral lesson for the parent. "You have been irresponsible so here's a baby as a punishment"?!   (And I hate those fucking plus-words as well... "I'm not a rapist, I'm pro-loving-thy-neighbor") "
If you're a big enough person to have sex then you should be a big enough person to take responsibility of using birth control, a condom, etc. "
I agree, you should be, but if you're not then you're definitely not responsible enough to take care of a baby, so where do we go from there?
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Metric_Outlaw

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Edited By Metric_Outlaw
@Frederik: Haha very true sir, let's just both agree not to have a baby.
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Frederik

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Edited By Frederik
@TimAllen624: But I was really starting to like you. We could have had something very special  :D
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Edited By Icil

I'm pro-choice on a more libertarian argument. It's their bodies. If the woman wants an abortion and a doctor is willing, we should give it to her unequivocally. If we want less abortions, you do it with other incentives besides prohibition (which only drives things underground and for abortions, that is dangerous). An example would be tax credits or social programs, education among other things.

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Clinkz

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@DanielJW said:
" I hate the term pro-life. Who the fuck isn't pro-life?
You're not apparently.
 
@DanielJW said:
 Though I don't agree that a fertilized egg is a human being, at that point it's only a few cells, no more or less intelligence than an ice cube.
Says you-- but quite honestly, you aren't the person who should be able to make that distinction.
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DanielJW

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Edited By DanielJW
@Clinkz: Every one is "pro-life". Few people are against the nature of living. It's just semantics, unrelated to this debate. 
 
Who should make that decision then? Something without intelligence surely can't make it.
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Red

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Edited By Red

Abortion is a cheap way out of your cheap mistake, that hurts a life in the process.

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@Red said:
" Abortion is a cheap way out of your cheap mistake, that hurts a life in the process. "
It may be a cheap way but would you rather a child un-loved, beaten, and growing up in a damaged home? How many times have we seen on the news of women killing their children because they didn't want them from the start? But due to religion, family pressure or cultural worry of being ridiculed and so on, they had them instead of making the conscious choice to have an abortion. (or adoption, I'm not opposed too if it's safe for the mother to do so (giving birth i mean) It's a woman's choice, and I'd rather she be ready and prepared and made the logical choice of having a child then stumbling upon it due to broken condom, birth control mishap and so on.
 
Mistakes happen, due to human error or contraceptives. Shit happens. And anyone with a penis shouldn't but in, it's not your body, you won't carry the child for nine months.
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Edited By Whisperkill

I really doubt banning abortion would cause all or even a little of those people to do it illegally. 

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Catolf

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@Whisperkill said:
" I really doubt banning abortion would cause all or even a little of those people to do it illegally.  "
I don't. If your desperate there are places that will do it for the right amount of cash. Banning is a no no.
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lolicanseeyou

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Edited By lolicanseeyou

pro choice

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Red

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@Catolf: I'm not saying they are the ones that have to take care of the child, but abortion is a terrible solution to your own bloody mistake.
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Catolf

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@Red said:
" @Catolf: I'm not saying they are the ones that have to take care of the child, but abortion is a terrible solution to your own bloody mistake. "
It may be a terrible solution but how many children are waiting to be adopted? If you can fine a decent family willing to take the baby, then I'm all for it, but when you have no choice but to care for it, and you don't have the means, then the best option is to terminate.
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c1337us

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Edited By c1337us

I can't get pregnant so it's none of my business.

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Azrail

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Edited By Azrail

worlds overpopulated anyways 
and i kinda of mean that seriously